Who should be next England coach

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

I like Jake White and feel he is a very good coach. He will certainly play England to their strengths. He is also very ruthless so if I was Andy Farrell, I would already be looking for a new job. Cant believe he is hanging in their now after Lancaster went to be honest. He was very much to blame as Lancaster.

It's a shame England won't be hiring an Englishman for the job for the first time. It's a sign the rot has well and truly set in imo. Why are there no Englishman suitable for the job? Where are all the club coaches putting their hand up? What about the U20s coach whoever that is. How can the most well resourced and wealthy Union not have a decent enough home-grown coach to run their national team. I'm flabbergasted by this. I don't mean to be funny, but an international coach will end in tears as England rugby will have to swallow their pride and I don't think that's an easy thing for them to work through.

I'm interested in this question of provenance.

For England fans, does the coach actually have to be an Englishman? What about someone from the UK or Ireland? Someone from the NH? Are either of these 'better' options than a SH coach? Why is this?

Speaking personally, Vern Cotter was such a successful club coach he could have been from Narnia as far as I was concerned.

It is difficult George, for myself I would prefer an English coach because it will always be a stick to beat England with if it is a foreigner. If we are winning people will simply remind us of our 'vast number of resources' (getting sick of hearing this now) and how we couldn't find an English coach. As an England fan I always feel that we are under slightly more scrutiny than other nations in these matters and any victories (although I would welcome them) would/ will be tainted with a slight reproach.

Saying that, would I rather win with a foreign coach who helps put sucessfu structure for the future in place or fall agonisingly short with a mediocre English coach again and again? To me it is now or never, England have literally NEVER had this much brilliant young talent coming through. It MUST be handled correctly or it will truly be a crime.

So Cumbrian, who is coaching all this 'brilliant new talent' coming through? If the talent is so brilliant then surely they have been coached brilliantly? Presumably they are English or are they foreign coaches coaching brilliance into the young players?

I think England, like Ireland, have a couple of very good coaches but they seem to fall just short of being excellent coaches. They can take players only so far. The game itself has progressed and the SH approach is much better so as a result, the SH coaches are currently the best.

If I were the RFU, I would employ a SH coach but would also like to see them employ English coaches under them so that they can gain that little bit extra experience and approach.

Ebop
He refers to natural talent. This needs nurturing and shaping into 'world class team' presumably by someone who has shown before they know how to do it.

Ah, so not really brilliant, just good athletes.

Ebop
Very cynical today. Are you one of those who continually brick bat England about the huge numbers of registered players, who btw are all only average in your world. The English are crap mantra borders on the racist at times. We have the numbers, now lets find the leader and shaper.

So go buy one eh

We can afford to.

Gregor, to be honest, I will be sad if England hire a foreign coach because they don't need to. It's a knee jerk reaction and it's not necessary.

Never mind boys Jake White will win the world cup for you, the players are all better than anyone else all they need is him to guide them.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34804628

LordDowlais wrote:Never mind boys Jake White will win the world cup for you, the players are all better than anyone else all they need is him to guide them.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34804628

Another World Cup would be nice.

ebop wrote:Gregor, to be honest, I will be sad if England hire a foreign coach because they don't need to. It's a knee jerk reaction and it's not necessary.

Yes, feel the same way. Since Woodward resigned in frustration, successful English Prem coaches also have taken one look at the 57 old farts and thought 'feck that'  I can enjoy rugby life better right here at my club.
There is a huge three way dysfunctional relationship between club rugby, RFU, and England national rugby. Woodward identified it, Carling named it, Prem coaches have avoided it. Sad state of affairs, but it may need a neutral outsider to help to fix it.

Yeah, I'm being harsh, apologies. You guys are going through the ringer and I honestly am sympathetic about the situation. How soon does a new coach need to be named? It feels a bit rushed. For instance, NZ are coming off a high right now so do the RFU really think an NZ coach like Smith (who's just won the RWC for NZ), Henry, Rennie etc are going to think that putting their hat in the ring will reflect well on them? Same with Cheika. He's just lost in the RWC final and I bet the last thing he's thinking of is England's problems. Money is great but honour and pride is worth something to.

I really think after a deep breath and a bit of a look at whats available this job is very attractive. Plenty of potential among some of the young players coming through, great wage, you'll get the support staff you want. Big issue is the club vs country but even that is miles better than 10 years ago.

Do you English fans think that Mike Ford would be a good coach for England?

Personally I do and I am sure he would have been offered and perhaps accepted the job had his son not been involved in the squad. One for the future though.

Ford and Baxter would be excellent candidates 4 years from now but I'd prefer to see them in the club game for a little longer. They're still good candidates now. I think Cockerill would be my first choice from England followed by Dean Ryan. I don't think Mallinder would be good enough.

ebop wrote:So Cumbrian, who is coaching all this 'brilliant new talent' coming through? If the talent is so brilliant then surely they have been coached brilliantly? Presumably they are English or are they foreign coaches coaching brilliance into the young players?

You're being a little chippy aren't you? The young English players that are coming through now are far more skilled than their predecessors and have won two of the last three Junior World Championship by skill rather than simply power. So it's not about them simply being 'good athletes'. They are being coached by a myriad of people in the academies, some of them may be foreign and some of the may not, I don't have the time to go through and look. At international level they are coached by the likes of Jon Callard Mark Hunter and Mark Mapletoft, but they won't be hired. The problem we have now is that the RFU have backed themselves into a corner by appointing guys (Johnson and Lancaster) who had very little prior experience and they failed. It is being perceived the RFU that they must go for an ultra experienced candidate.

My personal choice would be Rob Baxter, he has taken Exeter from Championship obscurity to Premiership contenders and brought through a whole raft of youngsters whilst he has done it. His teams are hard-working, more than the some of their parts, starting to show flair and crucially have an edge in the forwards.

Cumbrian

Nothing like a run of wins to make a good athlete look like a world beater

Deceptively so

"He would not have the distractions of a Sam Burgess type situation but even if he did, Brad Thorn's development at the Crusaders showed Deans can establish the right culture for a League convert with the right attitude to thrive"

The opinion of an Auckland Journo, putting forward Deans as coach for England.

My opinion England should should be coached by an Englishman and nothing less ever considered.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11544728

aucklandlaurie wrote:
"He would not have the distractions of a Sam Burgess type situation but even if he did, Brad Thorn's development at the Crusaders showed Deans can establish the right culture for a League convert with the right attitude to thrive"

The opinion of an Auckland Journo, putting forward Deans as  coach for England.

My opinion England should should be coached by an Englishman and nothing less ever considered.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11544728

I was proud that we were the only home nation with a home grown coach, and long term I'd like to think we could stick to doing so. Short term I am not so sure and it might well be a good idea to bring in someone from outside of the system (but at least with a long term view to developing someone on the inside)

The best way to create a supply of local coaches is competition for the top jobs, maybe England has made it a bit too comfotable for Lancaster, he doesnt have to get the results, so guess what? the results dont come.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The best way to create a supply of  local coaches is competition for the top jobs, maybe England has made it a bit too comfotable for Lancaster, he doesnt have to get the results, so guess what? the results dont come.

I don't think Lancaster was ever complacent. He has basically lost his job because he didn't get results. I do think he effectively panicked and messed up the preparation, selection and tactics choices at the RWC. (And why he did so (rather than what happened) is something that we haven't really got on to discussing, yet)

Thats a view a few people have auckland. When do you, or should you judge based on what players are available or on viewing the match and making a judgement? Looking at the England players in the last few years I would judge them as about level with the generally more experienced Welsh and Irish squads. Have we underachieved or overachieved or are we about where we should be? He's made mistakes but everyone does, sometimes you get away with it sometimes you don't.

As per my previous point we get a top quality coach play 4 great games in the 6Ns and lose a tight game to France away and finish 2nd on joint points; is the coach under pressure Should he be?

lostinwales wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The best way to create a supply of  local coaches is competition for the top jobs, maybe England has made it a bit too comfotable for Lancaster, he doesnt have to get the results, so guess what? the results dont come.

I don't think Lancaster was ever complacent. He has basically lost his job because he didn't get results. I do think he effectively panicked and messed up the preparation, selection and tactics choices at the RWC. (And why he did so (rather than what happened) is something that we haven't really got on to discussing, yet)

Good point. Without losing Joseph injured I don't think he would have dropped him and would have gone with a more attacking midfield. A lot of people were calling for farrell on here, or a few anyway, quality player and I don't think we personally lose too much here even in an attacking sense but he is more defensive for sure. A lack of trust in Slade? That would be stupid!

Right away we need a quality international coach that has a track record in doing well. England must start winning again. But it should not stop there. The RFU need to think about succession planning as a matter of urgency to get English coaches coaching England. I would love to see Baxter, Mallinder and Cockerill all in volved in a supporting role in some way. Even if they are only part time. NZ have a history of theior coaches coaching other teams, mostly Wales, and then becoming No2 to the main coach before stepping up to the top job. Hansen went from No2 at Wales to coach and then to No2 in NZ before getting the top job. This seems to be a planned career path. England need something similar. However, I can't think of a single English coach that has actually coached another national side and had some success. Diamond maybe with Russia was it? Our English interest in the Wales coaching team is a good place to start with bringing in experience too.

ebop wrote:It's a shame England won't be hiring an Englishman for the job for the first time. It's a sign the rot has well and truly set in imo. Why are there no Englishman suitable for the job? Where are all the club coaches putting their hand up? What about the U20s coach whoever that is. How can the most well resourced and wealthy Union not have a decent enough home-grown coach to run their national team. I'm flabbergasted by this. I don't mean to be funny, but an international coach will end in tears as England rugby will have to swallow their pride and I don't think that's an easy thing for them to work through.

I don't agree at all. First and foremost what ends in tears is perpetually failing to live up to your potential. IF an international coach offers a better chance for success, people will accept that. If they deliver success, people will soon stop caring about where they're from. The most important element to me is that we also work out how to develop decent coaches, and keep developing them.

England rugby might benefit from swallowing its pride.

ebop wrote:It's a shame England won't be hiring an Englishman for the job for the first time. It's a sign the rot has well and truly set in imo. Why are there no Englishman suitable for the job? Where are all the club coaches putting their hand up? What about the U20s coach whoever that is. How can the most well resourced and wealthy Union not have a decent enough home-grown coach to run their national team. I'm flabbergasted by this. I don't mean to be funny, but an international coach will end in tears as England rugby will have to swallow their pride and I don't think that's an easy thing for them to work through.

Man, how wide of the mark can you be?! Going out of a home RWC after 3 games is swallowing your pride. Regaining your pride is winning again. I couldn't care less if the next England coach is a Martian who spent his formative years on the planet Zog as long as he does a job for us. Get a grip.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

ebop wrote:It's a shame England won't be hiring an Englishman for the job for the first time. It's a sign the rot has well and truly set in imo. Why are there no Englishman suitable for the job? Where are all the club coaches putting their hand up? What about the U20s coach whoever that is. How can the most well resourced and wealthy Union not have a decent enough home-grown coach to run their national team. I'm flabbergasted by this. I don't mean to be funny, but an international coach will end in tears as England rugby will have to swallow their pride and I don't think that's an easy thing for them to work through.

Man, how wide of the mark can you be?! Going out of a home RWC after 3 games is swallowing your pride. Regaining your pride is winning again. I couldn't care less if the next England coach is a Martian who spent his formative years on the planet Zog as long as he does a job for us. Get a grip.

You want Cockers?

doctor_grey wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

ebop wrote:It's a shame England won't be hiring an Englishman for the job for the first time. It's a sign the rot has well and truly set in imo. Why are there no Englishman suitable for the job? Where are all the club coaches putting their hand up? What about the U20s coach whoever that is. How can the most well resourced and wealthy Union not have a decent enough home-grown coach to run their national team. I'm flabbergasted by this. I don't mean to be funny, but an international coach will end in tears as England rugby will have to swallow their pride and I don't think that's an easy thing for them to work through.

Man, how wide of the mark can you be?! Going out of a home RWC after 3 games is swallowing your pride. Regaining your pride is winning again. I couldn't care less if the next England coach is a Martian who spent his formative years on the planet Zog as long as he does a job for us. Get a grip.

You want Cockers?

Cockers  doc please get a grip.  He (COCKERS ) might be a good club coach. But in my opinion he would be worst for England than what Lancaster was.

Telegraph has a piece saying Richie was very tempted by the Mallett/Smith option four years go but, as a new man, didn't feel confident contradicting his advisors by appointing a non-English coach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11995210/Who-will-replace-Stuart-Lancaster-as-England-coach-Why-RFU-chief-Ian-Ritchie-now-determined-to-get-his-own-man.html

Sounds to me like he's trying to pass the buck after not having the courage of his convictions ...

majesticimperialman wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

ebop wrote:It's a shame England won't be hiring an Englishman for the job for the first time. It's a sign the rot has well and truly set in imo. Why are there no Englishman suitable for the job? Where are all the club coaches putting their hand up? What about the U20s coach whoever that is. How can the most well resourced and wealthy Union not have a decent enough home-grown coach to run their national team. I'm flabbergasted by this. I don't mean to be funny, but an international coach will end in tears as England rugby will have to swallow their pride and I don't think that's an easy thing for them to work through.

Man, how wide of the mark can you be?! Going out of a home RWC after 3 games is swallowing your pride. Regaining your pride is winning again. I couldn't care less if the next England coach is a Martian who spent his formative years on the planet Zog as long as he does a job for us. Get a grip.

You want Cockers?

Cockers  doc please get a grip.  He (COCKERS ) might be a good club coach. But in my opinion he would be worst for England than what Lancaster was.

Was just making a joke about where Cockers came from, the Martian.......

But you have to admit, it would be very entertaining to have him for a year. Would give Rugby precious media coverage we can't buy.

Cockers should be the England teams moral and media officer, or M&M for short

yappysnap wrote:Cockers should be the England teams moral and media officer, or M&M for short

How about the Safety and Morals officer, our own officer in charge of S&M????

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Cockers should be the England teams moral and media officer, or M&M for short

How about the Safety and Morals officer, our own officer in charge of S&M????

I thought i read some where this morning that when Ian Richie became head of England rugby, he wanted too appoint Nick Mallet and Wayne Smith to coach England.

Cannot find  where i read it though. If Richie is going to be the one that appoints the new England coach, will he be prepared to fall on his sword if it all goes pear shape? Again.

Lets face it like Dean Ryan said it as not been the last 4 years of England coaches not producing the winning team. But the last 12 years.

I personaly think he an Richie should of been looking for another job not just SL. After all he was the one that gave SL the job in the first place.

Read the link posted previously

Ian Ritchie has proven to be a very competent CEO for the RFU, which is much more than just the Senior England team. It's ridiculous to suggest that he should resign because one of his appointments underperformed.

No-one expects the CEO of a multinational to resign because one of his MDs underperforms. And football or rugby club CEOs rarely exit when their managers do.

The guy just made the RFU a surplus of £15m from the RWC, for instance.

The way in which England head coaches are appointed needs to be reviewed, but to ditch a capable executive because of something that is ultimately only one small facet of his job is doubly stupid because it would make any replacement think twice before taking the job.

I think its very hard to judge Poorfour, however given the recent history with Steele and Thomas you have to conclude he is an improvement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8567693/John-Steele-a-timeline-of-a-short-and-fractious-reign-as-RFU-chief-executive.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/15565682

My back of fag paper analysis is that the failure to successfully deal with the game becoming 'professional' (ownership of assets/players), placed the rfu in a position that distracted them in such a way that they lost sight of their priorities and then to everyone's detriment continued with ever greater gusto on a false course.

Having failed to secure the players contracts they went to war with the clubs, believed they had to create a 'war chest' to fund their plans and then got lost in the cycle of personal and corporate greed which is where they currently are.

Rob Andrew is quoted as earning 400k pa ffs

The rfu did not give priority to England winning the wc but perceived an opportunity to make profit for themselves and so they may say for the good of the greater game bs.

No poorfour it is far to early to judge Ian Ritchie to be anything more than a competent CEO.

I truly hope he succeeds and am really excited about the future of the game, however the task ahead are many;

Directive to win the 2019 world cup.

Improved club/country player contract restricting club appearances to 15 games a season for elite 20 player selection.

Development of schools/youth rugby. Rugby sevens to be offered in various forms at every school as initial development pathway. Change from age to size/weight youth team selection.

Appointment of english England coaching team, with new club/country coaching programme categorically designed to provide succession planning from within the english game.

Directive to play at least 2 internationals (one being 6 Nations game) away from Twickenham every year.

England to take leading role in overseas international rugby development and so playing at least 2 Tier2 international's each year (1 home 1 away), sponsoring the inclusion of Romania and Georgia into the 8 Nations and

WITHDRAWING England from future Lions tours.

Now that is an opportunity which if achieved would deservedly require the description, 'a very competent CEO'.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/14/england-rugby-world-cup-review-rfu-stuart-lancaster-ian-ritchie

Poorfour wrote:Ian Ritchie has proven to be a very competent CEO for the RFU, which is much more than just the Senior England team. It's ridiculous to suggest that he should resign because one of his appointments underperformed.

No-one expects the CEO of a multinational to resign because one of his MDs underperforms. And football or rugby club CEOs rarely exit when their managers do.

The guy just made the RFU a surplus of £15m from the RWC, for instance.

The way in which England head coaches are appointed needs to be reviewed,  but to ditch a capable executive because of something that is ultimately only one small facet of his job is doubly stupid because it would make any replacement think twice before taking the job.

I don't disagree that he perhaps shouldn't be axed for making a mistake with Lancaster, but the problem is exactly as you say, we wouldn't expect a CEO to leave after making a bad appointment. But CEOs, especially top ones, are a terrible example of how accountability should work.

In addition, I disagree that getting the right head coach is a small part of the job. It is vital in it's impact on the team. I'd think to boil his job down is to say he should keep rugby going and keep the RFU financially secure with enough money to achieve its objectives, but profit in itself isn't the main objective, it's a successful national team and national game. Money is just the means. In which case he's doing a bang average job.

"Directive to win the 2019 world cup."

NO. Directive to win EVERY game particularly the next game. Directing a coach to win in 2019 means we could have another 4 years of abject failure and he could still be on target. Not in my name mate.

Of course Ian Richie should to some extent be accountable but only for not picking a lemon as a coach, which his did not do with Lancaster.

If CEO's are to be totally accountable for every English performance then CEO's would start to meddle in the team, etc. regularly chopping and changing the coach.

The CEO has to appoint the coach and then stand back.

englandglory4ever wrote:"Directive to win the 2019 world cup."

NO. Directive to win EVERY game particularly the next game. Directing a coach to win in 2019 means we could have another 4 years of abject failure and he could still be on target. Not in my name mate.

I see what your saying. My point is I don't believe winning the 2015 wc was an rfu corporate priority. They were focused on a financial successful wc.

Of course the coach has to focus on winning the next, every game, but I was trying to outline the strategic priority which maddeningly has become misaligned.

To what extent do we think that the RFU is obsessed with having a marquee name, as opposed to an excellent quality coach? Quite a few club coaches have been assistant coaches at international level but their name won't be associated with winning a World Cup, etc.

If we're in the marquee name territory, then the shortlist will be very short indeed and the RFU can get on with asking Meyer, Jones, White, Mallett, etc whether they fancy living in a Richmond town house. If the latter, then it bring coaches like Rennie, Blackadder and Daryl Gibson into play.

I hope that they stay away from Gregor Townend, who would actually be excellent in the role. I am confident that he is too young and insufficiently fashionable to be a serious option, however.