QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October

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SOUTH AFRICA v WALES

17 October 2015
16:00 BST (UTC+01)
Twickenham, London

Live on expensive telly

Ref: Wayne Barnes (England)
ARs: George Clancy (Ireland) and JP Doyle (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

30 Played 30
27 Won 2
1 Drawn 1
2 Lost 27
814 Points 440

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
12–6 to Wales

21 June 2014
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
31–30 to South Africa

14 June 2014
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban
38–16 to South Africa

9 November 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–24 to South Africa

11 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
17–16 to South Africa

13 November 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
25–29 to South Africa

5 June 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
31–34 to South Africa

8 November 2008
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–20 to South Africa

C. TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Pietersen, Kriel, De Allende, Habana; Pollard, Du Preez (capt); Mtawarira, B du Plessis, Malherbe; De Jager, Etzebeth; Burger, Louw, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Strauss for Du Plessis (55), Nyakane for Tendai Mtawarira (56), J Du Plessis for Malherbe (60), Du Toit for Etzebeth (67), Alberts for Louw (67), Lambie for Pollard (76), Serfontein for Kriel (67), Pienaar (unused).


WALES

Anscombe; Cuthbert, Morgan, Roberts, North; Biggar, G Davies; Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee; Charteris, AW Jones; Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau.

Replacements: Owens for Baldwin (56), James for Jenkins (55), Francis for Lee (55), Davies for Charteris (63), Tipuric for Lydiate (67), L Williams for G Davies (70), Priestland for Biggar (73), Hook for Morgan (67).

I can't see beyond a SA win I must say ( tho I have been wrong before - I thought Wales wouldn't get out of the pool) I think this is where the limits of Gatlandball come in. Wales find it too difficult to score tries against the best

Biltong

What information did you provide that wasn't an excuse?

I deal in facts, have i miswatched 6/7 very poor SA displays over the last year?

Please state where any of my analysis is wrong.

fa0019 wrote:To think Habana scored only something like 10 tries in 39 matches for PDV.

Just imagine what he would have done had he not had that career lull.

White = 30 in 35 (86%)
PDV = 8 in 39    (21%)
Meyer = 24 in 40 (60%)

To be fair to Habana, he didn't really get much ball under PDV. He and JP was mainly used to contest the up and under. Can't think of instances where he got much ball.

Fanster wrote:Biltong

What information did you provide that wasn't an excuse?

I deal in facts, have i miswatched 6/7 very poor SA displays over the last year?

Please state where any of my analysis is wrong.

Why don't you start by telling me point for point what excuse I have made, otherwise, stop wasting my time and twisting statements to continue wasting my time.

Fanster wrote:Biltong

What information did you provide that wasn't an excuse?

I deal in facts, have i miswatched 6/7 very poor SA displays over the last year?

Please state where any of my analysis is wrong.

We have not played with a team close to first choice in the last year up until recently. We are close to fielding Meyers first choice team this weekend (Though I don't necessarily agree with his first choice). He would probably want Matfield and JDV there.

Biltong wrote:

Fanster wrote:Biltong

What information did you provide that wasn't an excuse?

I deal in facts, have i miswatched 6/7 very poor SA displays over the last year?

Please state where any of my analysis is wrong.

Why don't you start by telling me point for point what excuse I have made, otherwise, stop wasting my time and twisting statements to continue wasting my time.

You claimed Pollard was not a struggling 10, because he's not really a 10.

Kriel is weak defencively because he's young.

Japan loss was a one off because?

LE Roux not playing well because he was injured.

Kriel playing poor v Japan was De Villiers fault.

the disjointed midfield is new.

These are all excuse for poor performances, either they play well or they don't, come RWC time all of these excuses help noone, and at very best the management team is at fault for selecting youngsters, new combintions, injured players etc...

Biltong wrote:

Fanster wrote:Biltong

What information did you provide that wasn't an excuse?

I deal in facts, have i miswatched 6/7 very poor SA displays over the last year?

Please state where any of my analysis is wrong.

Why don't you start by telling me point for point what excuse I have made, otherwise, stop wasting my time and twisting statements to continue wasting my time.

PS your writing on a rugby discussion page, time to waste you have my friend, or we'd all go do something more productive.

Griff wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

I actually agree with this. We've not played a good game yet. Stuttered against Uruguay; England gave too many penalties which kept us in the game and we had perhaps a good last 10 mins but created very little; struggled v Fiji after the first 15 mins and just hung on for dear life; created very little v Aus and couldn't punish 2 man advantage, although we did fairly well to contain them. I'm hoping we're due 1 good game this tournament so hope it will be against the Boks! Big ask though.

Or we did enough v Uruguay (as Gatland correctly pointed out points difference was irrelevant), we forced England to give away penalties, did well v Fiji considering the turnaround and inevitable burn out (and the fact that a few people on here backed Fiji to beat us) and faced a very good team in Australia, which might force a few people to learn from the fact we made a few wrong decisions in attack and with scrums over lineouts.

"You claimed Pollard was not a struggling 10, because he's not really a 10."

Find me two people who think Pollard is struggling, just two.I didn't say he wasn't a 10, I said he is not yet in the class of Carter and Sexton in controlling the match.

"Kriel is weak defencively because he's young."

Kriel played fullback the whole season in Super rugby, surely you are aware of that. He was brought into the squad because of his attacking ability, he has played with de Villiers and De Allende. Neither partnership has settled. In between he played wing as well.

Go watch the Japan match and look at De Villiers' defence.

I said he is struggling positionally.

FA said his defence is crap.

"Japan loss was a one off because?"

I didn't say anything about Japan being a one off, I said we were crap, unmotivated, underestimating Japan.

"LE Roux not playing well because he was injured."

I didn't say Le Roux isn't playing well, you did, I told he you is coming back from injury.

Biltong wrote:"You claimed Pollard was not a struggling 10, because he's not really a 10."

Find me two people who think Pollard is struggling, just two.I didn't say he wasn't a 10, I said he is not yet in the class of Carter and Sexton in controlling the match.

You said you saw him as a 12 at 10.

He has to be accountable for some poor performances, as does everyone.

He is a very talented player, not performing in this team, under these conditions.

"Kriel playing poor v Japan was De Villiers fault."

Again, I didn't say he played poorly, I said he was put under pressure defensively because de Villiers didn't cover his space.

Biltong wrote:"Kriel is weak defencively because he's young."

Kriel played fullback the whole season in Super rugby, surely you are aware of that. He was brought into the squad because of his attacking ability, he has played with de Villiers and De Allende. Neither partnership has settled. In between he played wing as well.

Go watch the Japan match and look at De Villiers' defence.

I said he is struggling positionally.

FA said his defence is crap.

I never sai you criticised him, I said you excused his performances, which you've just done again.

Japan was a one off. Its clear why it happened. SA underestimated them and Japan worked for 4 years for that win whereas SA probably only thought for 4 minutes about Japan.

this is not a great SA team - a bit old and slow and Japan exploited their slowness unmercifully

Fanster wrote:

Biltong wrote:"You claimed Pollard was not a struggling 10, because he's not really a 10."

Find me two people who think Pollard is struggling, just two.I didn't say he wasn't a 10, I said he is not yet in the class of Carter and Sexton in controlling the match.

You said you saw him as a 12 at 10.

He has to be accountable for some poor performances, as does everyone.

He is a very talented player, not performing in this team, under these conditions.

Where is he not performing?

Because he isn't kicking like Sexton, 20 up and unders a match?

"the disjointed midfield is new."

DO you know how many tests De Allende and Kriel have played?

Do you know how many they have played together?

When you find out, you will understand a simple statement such as that.

I think JDV has held you back a bit with your coach being caught up in a Gatlandesque scenario as he chooses the "reliability" and physicality of the tried and tested over the up and coming.

Biltong wrote:"the disjointed midfield is new."

DO you know how many tests De Allende and Kriel have played?

Do you know how many they have played together?

When you find out, you will understand a simple statement such as that.

I don't think you've understood anything i've said, I've never claimed they had 80 caps between them, I mentioned SA's struggles, I don't accept excuses, I know they have very few caps, and even less together, but if SA rugby needs to play a combo in it's infancy then they have troubles.

Age is no excuse for performance, i'll say it again, it's a RWC quarter final, if you've built badly to this point then so be it, it's international rugby where either your good enough or your not.

I get you feel the nee to defend your team at every opportunity, but am nsure why you feel the need to do so against someone not attacking them whatsoever!

I've merely recognised some very poor performances and result recently, and similar reasons for those results were going to be prevelent on Saturday.

To sum it up lads, SA's test this Saturday will be the first time you've played a world class team in the 2015 tournament .

RubyGuby wrote:I think JDV has held you back a bit with your coach being caught up in a Gatlandesque scenario as he chooses the "reliability" and physicality of the tried and tested over the up and coming.

He has mate, Meyer went into his tenure with a plan of playing Jannie du Plessis, Beast, Bismarck, Victor, Bakkies, Burger, FDP, Morne Steyn, J de Villiers, Jaque Fourie, Habana and JP Pietersen.

He was literally going to take the 2011 Bok team to this tournament.

Jannie is paste, his body is done, played into the ground the last 4 years, fortunately Bakkies, Juan Smit and Jaque Fourie retired.

But because Meyer held on so long he has created vast gaps in experience.

We have no experienced scrumhalf other than Du Preez and Pienaar.

Pollard is still inexperienced, De Llennde and Kriel is inexperienced, we have no suitable experienved wings to replace Habana and zpietersen.

He was forced by pure public pressre to give le Roux a chance.

And that is why I said from the staart we won't win this world cup.

We have either very experienced players or they have very little experience.

I just hope to hell Matfield does not start against Wwales, De Jager has been in top form.

mikey_dragon wrote:To sum it up lads, SA's test this Saturday will be the first time you've played a world class team in the 2015 tournament .

Agree, this will be our first serious challenge.

Speaking of Japan.................................... wouldn't like to be them whenever they next meet South Africa.
That game will take some cleansing in the minds of proud (and big) Boks - and Japan, without Jones, will pay the ferryman.

SecretFly wrote:Speaking of Japan.................................... wouldn't like to be them whenever they next meet South Africa.  
That game will take some cleansing in the minds of proud (and big) Boks - and Japan, without Jones, will pay the ferryman.

Yep, redemption for that humiliatioon will be on the mind.

Biltong wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:To sum it up lads, SA's test this Saturday will be the first time you've played a world class team in the 2015 tournament .

Agree, this will be our first serious challenge.

I think this is the problem still then! I'm sure you posted a long explanation after Japan that it will always be used as a reminder etc. They did pose you a serious challenge which you failed. Scotland posed one you passed. No one can take teams lightly or they will paste you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:To sum it up lads, SA's test this Saturday will be the first time you've played a world class team in the 2015 tournament .

Agree, this will be our first serious challenge.

I think this is the problem still then! I'm sure you posted a long explanation after Japan that it will always be used as a reminder etc. They did pose you a serious challenge which you failed. Scotland posed one you passed. No one can take teams lightly or they will paste you.

Well it has been an ilness in South African rugby for some time, some might call it arrogance , other just sself brlief, but I call it stupid.

You aren't supposed to ever underestimate any opponent. And it has been an exxtremely frustrating part of being a Springbok supporter.

We need the old guard to be removed from our admistration, that includes coaches, older players, anyone who still holds onto the belief system we just need to rock up and win.

Prior to isolation we had a better record than in the pro era over almost every nation.

BBC Sport Wales wrote: @BBCWalesSport: George North and Alex Cuthbert are probable Wales wings v SA, with 13 shirt between Tyler Morgan and James Hook, says asst coach Rob Howley.

I think we all knew it was coming. But seeing Cuthbert on the list still makes me shiver. Habana will make him look silly, and not for the first time.

Cuthbert does not need Habana to make him look silly, he's more than capable of doing that by himself

I heard a rumour Romain Poite is the referee?

If that is the case we are in deep, deep shyte.

Yeah if Poite is officiating it's going to be a whistle fest... You better hope Meyer gets in his ear this week so he can decide before hand which team he is going to continuously penalise at the scrums.

What's the point of calling up Walker if he is injured?

Risca Rev wrote:

Griff wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

I actually agree with this. We've not played a good game yet. Stuttered against Uruguay; England gave too many penalties which kept us in the game and we had perhaps a good last 10 mins but created very little; struggled v Fiji after the first 15 mins and just hung on for dear life; created very little v Aus and couldn't punish 2 man advantage, although we did fairly well to contain them. I'm hoping we're due 1 good game this tournament so hope it will be against the Boks! Big ask though.

Or we did enough v Uruguay (as Gatland correctly pointed out points difference was irrelevant), we forced England to give away penalties, did well v Fiji considering the turnaround and inevitable burn out (and the fact that a few people on here backed Fiji to beat us) and faced a very good team in Australia, which might force a few people to learn from the fact we made a few wrong decisions in attack and with scrums over lineouts.

I was talking more about the performances than the outcomes, Rev. You can't fault the outcomes, and I'm immensely proud that we got to the quarters against all odds. But even with some injuries taken into account we have not created much in the backs. Bigger, North, Cuthbert, Roberts, Liam Williams. That's been the spine of the Welsh backs for a few years now, but they've not really troubled the opposition much with their running. Very few examples of backs play, moves, running rugby. The sort of running rugby we've seen the same players do in previous seasons against similar opposition (Fiji, Oz, England). It can't all be because we have no outside centre!

Griff - its the style of play they are coached to. It makes me want to cry watch 1/2p kicking away good counter ball - it can only be because thats what he has been told to do. Sure you cannot counter attack everytime but its a shame the back 3 of Wales are given so little license to attack

TightHEAD wrote:What's the point of calling up Walker if he is injured?

I believe it is because everyone else is too, and he is going to be the first one to recover

TJ wrote:Griff - its the style of play they are coached to.  It makes me want to cry watch 1/2p kicking away good counter ball - it can only be because thats what he has been told to do.  Sure you cannot counter attack everytime but its a shame the back 3 of Wales are given so little license to attack

That's what I always thought until I saw Liam Williams play 15 for Wales.  He seems to counter attack a LOT more than HP, but I get the feeling that LW tends to do whatever the hell he wants to anyway!  Maybe he's just ignoring orders.  

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What's the point of calling up Walker if he is injured?

I believe it is because everyone else is too, and he is going to be the first one to recover

There must be someone left in the Regions?

Griff wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

I actually agree with this. We've not played a good game yet. Stuttered against Uruguay; England gave too many penalties which kept us in the game and we had perhaps a good last 10 mins but created very little; struggled v Fiji after the first 15 mins and just hung on for dear life; created very little v Aus and couldn't punish 2 man advantage, although we did fairly well to contain them. I'm hoping we're due 1 good game this tournament so hope it will be against the Boks! Big ask though.

It was pretty much the same last RWC to be fair. We lost to SA when we really should have beaten them, snuck past Samoa (who had a tight turnaround...), breezed past a poor Namibia, and then beat a Fijian side that were already out of the tournament.

So hopefully we can do similar and pull a top class game out the draw for this weekend.

TJ wrote:Griff - its the style of play they are coached to.  It makes me want to cry watch 1/2p kicking away good counter ball - it can only be because thats what he has been told to do.  Sure you cannot counter attack everytime but its a shame the back 3 of Wales are given so little license to attack

He plays the same way for Toulon. As has Roberts for Stade/Blues, Foxy, North, Biggar, Davies, Webb Liam, Scott etc etc etc... 

This the way those players play. Halfpenny doesn't counterattack. Roberts doesn't have an array of smart little feignts and sidesteps or clever blind offloads.

Gatland coaches what is available to him.

If for example Henson was still playing like he did in the 04/05 season he would play twelve for Wales and our style would be different, a passing game in midfield.

TightHEAD wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What's the point of calling up Walker if he is injured?

I believe it is because everyone else is too, and he is going to be the first one to recover

There must be someone left in the Regions?

Was tongue in cheek a bit. However I know there is a bit of a back three crisis at the Scarlets, and the Ospreys' backs have been woeful in attack so far this season, the Blues are camped in Ireland during the RWC (as they are pimping out CAP to RWC fans), and the Dragons have more than their quota called up already (joking). So realistically there are not that many options there.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:the Blues are camped in Ireland during the RWC (as they are pimping out CAP to RWC fans)

A joke? Are they basing themselves in Ireland during the WC?

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:the Blues are camped in Ireland during the RWC (as they are pimping out CAP to RWC fans)

A joke?  Are they basing themselves in Ireland during the WC?

They are playing four games during the RWC and all are away games in Ireland oh and the 31st Oct in Zebre (First game at home is Nov 7th). As for whether they are travelling back and fore between ever game I am not 100% sure, but personally I would have made it a semi tour, team building and all that tosh.

Yeah, wouldn't be a bad idea. Build the old relationships within the.............. well, we'll keep the chat to International I suppose.

Biltong wrote:I heard a rumour Romain Poite is the referee?

If that is the case we are in deep, deep shyte.

I hope it is a NH ref, the simple fact of having a familiar man in charge can make a big difference.
Joubert as usual killed us in the last game, I cant remember our back row been penalised that heavily under any other official.

TJ wrote:Griff - its the style of play they are coached to.  It makes me want to cry watch 1/2p kicking away good counter ball - it can only be because thats what he has been told to do.  Sure you cannot counter attack everytime but its a shame the back 3 of Wales are given so little license to attack

But this is my point - we don't always play that way so I'm not sure it is the coaching. Against Italy this year we were running from everywhere. The same players who were stodgier than my nan's rice pudding for 4 games were suddenly offloading, running good lines, scoring good backs tries. These same players under the same coach have had some great humdingers against Oz over the last few years where we've thrown it about, created overlaps, scored some lovely tries. Same coach, same tactics, pretty much the same players, but different style of play. So I think they can. I think they are given the licence because they have done it enough. It's just they sometimes don't. I'm hoping on Saturday they DO!

If its the way they are coached then why doesn't Liam Williams play that way? We have heard time and time again that its Gatlands way or you are out so if that's the case why is Liam Williams still picked?

Liam sidesteps Gatland everytime they meet in a corridor, so Gatland hasn't been able to tell him yet:

'It's my way or the highwa............................................. f**k, the kid has darted around me again!'

.

So Gat's is planning on being around longer? Nice psychological prod at the SAs. The spin begins...