Pro 12: Edinburgh Rugby vs Ulster Rugby Fri 16th Oct

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Edinburgh Rugby v Ulster Rugby
Friday 16th October 2015, KO 19:45
BT Murrayfield

TV - Live on Sky

Referee: Dudley Phillips (IRFU, 52nd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sam Grove-White, Mike Adamson (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Iain Goodall (SRU)
TMO: Iain Ramage (SRU)

Form:

Edinburgh
Last 3 Matches
2/10/15 Edinburgh 20 - 9 Ospreys
12/9/15 Treviso 24 - 27 Edinburgh
4/9/15 Edinburgh 16 - 9 Leinster

Ulster
Last 3 Matches
2/10/15 Ulster 48 - 7 Treviso
12/9/15 Scarlets 22 - 12 Ulster
4/9/15 Ulster 28 - 6 Ospreys

TEAMS:

Edinburgh Rugby

15 Greig Tonks
14 Tom Brown
13 Chris Dean
12 Andries Strauss
11 Damien Hoyland
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Nathan Fowles

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 John Andress
4 Anton Bresler
5 Fraser McKenzie
6 Mike Coman (capt)
7 Hamish Watson
8 Nasi Manu

16 George Turner
17 Allan Dell
18 Simon Berghan
19 Alex Toolis
20 Cornell Du Preez
21 Sean Kennedy
22 Will Helu
23 Jack Cuthbert

Ulster Rugby

(15-9): Louis Ludik; Craig Gilroy, Sammy Arnold, Stuart McCloskey, Andrew Trimble; Peter Nelson, Paul Marshall; (1-8): Callum Black, Rob Herring (captain), Wiehahn Herbst, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Roger Wilson, Sean Reidy, Nick Williams;

Replacements (16-23): John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, Bronson Ross, Lewis Stevenson, Willie Faloon, David Shanahan, Ian Humphreys, Rory Scholes.

Bad selections from Grandpappy may well do for Edinburgh in this game although ironically nobody will know this Ulster team better than Solomons.

Full strength Edinburgh pack will have the nudge on their opponents in all areas of the park but the Ulster backs are about 5 times as coherent and sharp as their opposition.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Andress, Coman and Strauss have no business being in the starting lineup.

Agreed on Coman and Strauss, but I'm yet to be convinced that Berghan is a better option than Andress. Tighthead is a problem area for us - behind Nel we have no-one.

How can we pass judgement on Berghan when he never gets an opportunity? Solomans has shown that he is not one to give chances to players who wouldve been perfectly serviceable.

Agreed on Berghan - he's barely had more than 10 minutes any game.

Andress certainly isn't at Jack Gilding's level but he is a big step down from Nel. I'd say he's a solid enough Pro 12 player but gets found out against the better teams

For me Andress has the strength but he has a terrible technique, when he is in a good position he can get a good drive but most of the time he is found out by the opposing loosehead. Least said about his yellow cards in open play the better.

Berghan looked stable enough the few times we got to see him last season to warrant a starting berth imo but remember It's Solomons who signed his mate Andress.

geoff999rugby wrote:Munckin NP

Actually think the reason you see our 'A' mention is that it is part of our wider malaise of Ulster failing to progress our development teams.
As I posted elsewhere our school, club, aged and 'A' teams are currently siting with W1 L11 against the other provinces.
It feels like Ulster have little to offer underneath the front line troop.

It is a worry

It is a concern, but with Ulster getting a bit more to spend this season (IRFU), hopefully some can be targeted in development. I know the Academy is to get more, and think some has to filter down, but not sure.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Andress, Coman and Strauss have no business being in the starting lineup.

Agreed on Coman and Strauss, but I'm yet to be convinced that Berghan is a better option than Andress. Tighthead is a problem area for us - behind Nel we have no-one.

How can we pass judgement on Berghan when he never gets an opportunity? Solomans has shown that he is not one to give chances to players who wouldve been perfectly serviceable.

The judgement I passed was that I'm still to be convinced. I agree that we need to see more of him, but he isn't a genuine backup option for Nel in my eyes until he proves himself.

Agreed - Berghan is very much a known unknown and a classic victim of the Solomons Substitution Policy, whereby first choice starting XV players are only substituted in the event of death, unconsciousness or loss of a major limb.

George Carlin wrote:Agreed - Berghan is very much a known unknown and a classic victim of the Solomons Substitution Policy, whereby first choice starting XV players are only substituted in the event of death, unconsciousness or loss of a major limb.

Considering that Berghan is SQ as well then he should be getting as much playing time as possible, as the WC has shown us that after Nel, Welsh has been a big drop in quality at tighthead. Obviously a certain person on these boards has a recurring issue with Jade Te Rure but I think he has shown that he's got potential to be a good player (again after Russell there isn't a lot of quality SQ 10s about) and yet currently he's not getting any playing time at all, surely he should be at least getting some game time with whichever domestic club he's attached to? Can't see the wisdom of these guys training all week and not playing any rugby.

MacKnocked-on wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Agreed - Berghan is very much a known unknown and a classic victim of the Solomons Substitution Policy, whereby first choice starting XV players are only substituted in the event of death, unconsciousness or loss of a major limb.

Considering that Berghan is SQ as well then he should be getting as much playing time as possible, as the WC has shown us that after Nel, Welsh has been a big drop in quality at tighthead. Obviously a certain person on these boards has a recurring issue with Jade Te Rure but I think he has shown that he's got potential to be a good player (again after Russell there isn't a lot of quality SQ 10s about) and yet currently he's not getting any playing time at all, surely he should be at least getting some game time with whichever domestic club he's attached to? Can't see the wisdom of these guys training all week and not playing any rugby.

That’s it, you’re banned!

We’ve seen sveral young players who came through who had one strong facet to their play but were sub-standard everywhere else:

Alex Blair
David Blair
Rory Hutton

And look what happened to them.

Te Rure just doesn’t give me any confidence whatsoever that he’s any better than that lot, and I fear for the day that he’s thrust into the 10 shirt again!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Agreed - Berghan is very much a known unknown and a classic victim of the Solomons Substitution Policy, whereby first choice starting XV players are only substituted in the event of death, unconsciousness or loss of a major limb.

Considering that Berghan is SQ as well then he should be getting as much playing time as possible, as the WC has shown us that after Nel, Welsh has been a big drop in quality at tighthead. Obviously a certain person on these boards has a recurring issue with Jade Te Rure but I think he has shown that he's got potential to be a good player (again after Russell there isn't a lot of quality SQ 10s about) and yet currently he's not getting any playing time at all, surely he should be at least getting some game time with whichever domestic club he's attached to? Can't see the wisdom of these guys training all week and not playing any rugby.

That’s it, you’re banned!  

We’ve seen sveral young players who came through who had one strong facet to their play but were sub-standard everywhere else:

Alex Blair
David Blair
Rory Hutton

And look what happened to them.

Te Rure just doesn’t give me any confidence whatsoever that he’s any better than that lot, and I fear for the day that he’s thrust into the 10 shirt again!

That's my point though, he's got no chance of proving himself (or otherwise) if he's not getting any game time, a NZ U20 player has to have something about them or they wouldn't get that far in age grade in NZ. Surely if he isn't ready to challenge Burleigh then he should be playing domestic club rugby for whatever team he's attached to. Same goes for all the squad players., no game time means no chance of developing.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Agreed - Berghan is very much a known unknown and a classic victim of the Solomons Substitution Policy, whereby first choice starting XV players are only substituted in the event of death, unconsciousness or loss of a major limb.

Considering that Berghan is SQ as well then he should be getting as much playing time as possible, as the WC has shown us that after Nel, Welsh has been a big drop in quality at tighthead. Obviously a certain person on these boards has a recurring issue with Jade Te Rure but I think he has shown that he's got potential to be a good player (again after Russell there isn't a lot of quality SQ 10s about) and yet currently he's not getting any playing time at all, surely he should be at least getting some game time with whichever domestic club he's attached to? Can't see the wisdom of these guys training all week and not playing any rugby.

That’s it, you’re banned!  

We’ve seen sveral young players who came through who had one strong facet to their play but were sub-standard everywhere else:

Alex Blair
David Blair
Rory Hutton

And look what happened to them.

Te Rure just doesn’t give me any confidence whatsoever that he’s any better than that lot, and I fear for the day that he’s thrust into the 10 shirt again!

Did some bloke called Jade once steal your girlfriend on the secondary school exchange trip to Auckland Auchinleck?

MacKnocked-on wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Agreed - Berghan is very much a known unknown and a classic victim of the Solomons Substitution Policy, whereby first choice starting XV players are only substituted in the event of death, unconsciousness or loss of a major limb.

Considering that Berghan is SQ as well then he should be getting as much playing time as possible, as the WC has shown us that after Nel, Welsh has been a big drop in quality at tighthead. Obviously a certain person on these boards has a recurring issue with Jade Te Rure but I think he has shown that he's got potential to be a good player (again after Russell there isn't a lot of quality SQ 10s about) and yet currently he's not getting any playing time at all, surely he should be at least getting some game time with whichever domestic club he's attached to? Can't see the wisdom of these guys training all week and not playing any rugby.

That’s it, you’re banned!  

We’ve seen sveral young players who came through who had one strong facet to their play but were sub-standard everywhere else:

Alex Blair
David Blair
Rory Hutton

And look what happened to them.

Te Rure just doesn’t give me any confidence whatsoever that he’s any better than that lot, and I fear for the day that he’s thrust into the 10 shirt again!

That's my point though, he's got no chance of proving himself (or otherwise) if he's not getting any game time, a NZ U20 player has to have something about them or they wouldn't get that far in age grade in NZ. Surely if he isn't ready to challenge Burleigh then he should be playing domestic club rugby for whatever team he's attached to. Same goes for all the squad players., no game time means no chance of developing.

My opnion isn't changed by him having an ABs under 20s cap - Ben Atiga was capped by the All Blacks when he was younger remember. Alan Dell won the under 20s world cup but he's our 3rd choice Loosehead.

I agree with you though - he needs to be playing Prem 1 rugby. Anyone know if he is? Or did no one want him??

His game against the Ospreys was an odd one.  He'd apparently just completed 19 successive, successful kicks at goal.  He then proceeded to make a complete mess of the next five with 2 going over.

He also made more line breaks in 20 minutes than the entire team manged for the rest of the game.  Unfortunately no-one was keeping up with him and almost all his offloads, which looked perfectly accurate, were fumbled.  

I seem to remember the only person on the same wavelength as him was Burleigh. I don't see that as being Jade's fault though and I'd like to see him getting more game time.

Well it looks like Burleigh has got the 10 jersey nailed down for a while, and Tonks is getting game time at 15 (so if Burleigh were to get injured, then I think Tonks would move to 10 with Cuthbert on at 15). I think it would take an injury to one or both for Te Rure to come into the reckoning. Solomons clearly doesn't appear to rate him.

Just realised we've completely forgotten about the random Tongan winger we signed - Katoa.

He played a half against Ulster in pre-season, scored a try, then hasn't been seen or heard of since!

Yep - forgotten about him as well! Odd signing.

Rory Sutherland to the Scotland squad says the sky commentator (on Sky3).

Got to be honest, pretty worried about this game. Peter Nelson has done really well but he's not an out half and his kicking for position will be crucial. So long as he just has to run the ball he's excellent, now he has to kick accurately under pressure.

We also still don't have a dedicated place kicker on the pitch and that will be crucial too.

I can see Ulster winning this comfortably

Williams already giving away 2 penalties...

Classic Scottish rugby restart mess up!

Great chase Tom Brown - all from a better kick from Burleigh

So far we've been shoite.

Notch wrote:So far we've been shoite.

Yes you have - long way to go though!

Notch wrote:So far we've been shoite.

This is hard to watch, especially after the sheer quality of rugby the World Cup has been offering.

Hamish Watson is playing well

Edinburgh much the better team so far - could do with building a lead while we're on the up

So we're slow to the breakdown, we're allowing them to make yards with every carry, we drop the ball every time we get into their half and we give away the cheapest of penalties every time they get into ours.

So how then do we expect to be in this game?

Pathetic call from the ref

Where was the obstruction there?

cakeordeath wrote:Hamish Watson is playing well

The Scottish Hooper. Small and freakishly strong.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Where was the obstruction there?

In Phillips mind

Jee, its painful to see how slow we are to the breakdown.

Not entirely sure what that Ulster penalty was for either!

Notch wrote:Jee, its painful to see how slow we are to the breakdown.

Don't worry the ref is coming to the rescue for you guys

Honestly, what the hell was that? That is disgraceful, that is amateur stuff at the breakdown. Shameful.

Strauss carries and knocks on 5m from their line

VinceWLB wrote:

Notch wrote:Jee, its painful to see how slow we are to the breakdown.

Don't worry the ref is coming to the rescue for you guys

You know, I always used to think you were a Scarlets fan. I'm sure you can imagine why!

Maul laws really are strange - that's twice now Edinburgh have driven forward but been turned over because the opposition can just lie all over it!

Great defence Edinburgh - Watson has been outstanding

Watson having another great game

Not overly convinced Watson was held their either! Could do with a replay

Edinburgh doing well at the breakdown but where is our back row, theres no aggression there from these players, why are wilson and williams even there surely the likes of dow and taggart couldn't do worse. 0 aggression, awful

Very powerful performance from the Edinburgh pack, the best they have played this season so far

Edinburgh the better team and deserving of their lead. Only problem is they haven't built much of a lead - Ulster will come into this.

Main talking point being the ref calling play back when Watson was through on the posts - still don't really know why.

Edinburgh worthy of a half time lead, but still to close to call. Going to the wire this one I feel.

Another harsh penalty against Edinburgh IMO- Brown was over that ball fairly I reckon

Leads to an Ulster try!

Well that was cowpat should have been a penalty to Edinburgh for holding on