How Ireland make the jump to next level

First topic message reminder :

We have no Autumn Internationals in 2011 due to World Cup. Does anyone else think rather than introducing our youngsters against South African and New Zealand the next step for Ireland is to use the 6 Nations as a training ground and target away wins over the Southern Hemisphere in the summer with a full strenght squad?

Away wins are the next step for us if we are serious about progressing in the future?

Greybeard,

What defines Irish riugby for me is that we have not gone down the mercenary route and given caps to non Irish players.
What you have is what you get and boy do them lads work hard for it.

Cronin might have looked lost to you but I would much rather have an Irishman doing the job in a Green jersey than anyone else.

Strauss and co can go back to their own countries and work at getting caps like every Irishman has to.

greybeard wrote:Stag, I mostly agree with you.

But don't you think it's ironic an article asking how Ireland can make the jump to the next level has turned into a discussion about how we shouldn't profit from all of the opportunities available?

Many Leinster fans like myself would love to see Nacewa in an Ireland shirt, but for a few tiny minutes playing for Fiji. I can't pretend otherwise.

Chances are if he didn't play those few minutes for Fiji, he wouldn't be at Leinster just yet. Maybe next year he would have made his way North.

Would you not prefer to see Felix Jones/Rob Kearney in Green?

I think Strauss would do well with Ireland. Hooker is an area where Ireland have really suffered with injury in recent years. Flannery regularly out of action, both fogarty's spring to mind, Best has had to deal with a fair share of knocks and set backs. Cronin is very young and in reality learning his craft.

In my own view, if someone holds an Irish passport, that makes them Irish in my eyes and they should be able to play for Ireland. If there are people out there who don't see think of them as Irish enough, then they should petition for the laws to be changed.

With regard to the argument that a 'foreign' player will take a place away from an Irish player, I think that is a non-runner. The very reason the 'foreign' player gets the place to begin with is because the best Irish equivalent isn't good enough. And so long as the 'foreign' player is elite level, their presence in any club/national setup should only serve to help other players in that position improve in training/competition.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:In my own view, if someone holds an Irish passport, that makes them Irish in my eyes and they should be able to play for Ireland. If there are people out there who don't see think of them as Irish enough, then they should petition for the laws to be changed.

He doesn't have a passport. He isn't Irish. If he did then so be it. There are others like Dan Tuohy who are not born or even raised here and none of us bat an eyelid. Its completely different. Strauss won't even have been in the country long enough to earn a passport.

bandwagon,

You don't need a passport to represent Ireland. I actually think Strauss needs to spend double the time here to apply for nationality I think.

Rugby is different though.

Stag,

On making the jump, it's going to be a gradual thing. We have some very good young players coming through and more behind that. Good coaching and realistic goal planning should bring us there.

MBTGOG wrote:Yeah the big picture. It's an Irish representative side. Does Strauss represent Irish rugby playing people?

Who can tell. Hey, even the Queen of England speaks Irish these days

I'd like to see an end to the "project player" concept. Teams have IQ, NIQ, that's it. If one day an NIQ becomes IQ due to residency I have no problem with that. I don't like the idea of specifically growing an Irishman in a lab, as it were, but if one springs up among the plants then I wouldn't say no.

I wouldn't increase the residency timeline, either, though. International careers are short enough.

red_stag wrote:

Gibson wrote:Stag and MBTGOG,
But the boy is young. What would you say if you moved at your age - to Oz or NZ and they said would you play for us? But only if you intend to live, put down roots and make your life here?

This isn't a part of it at all.

It should be. Whats makes an Irish qf player? A Grannie from 60 years ago?Or a real committment to settle in your new-found home? That one always makes me laugh. Only the Irish etc ...
That rule is even less pertinent than Strauss' situation.

In 1988 I watched Ireland play with 8 or 9 English,Scots and other "foreigners" - in a soccer Championship. No one complained then. Except Eamon Dunphy.

This discussion goes a wee bit deeper than 1st thought.

Sin é wrote:Chances are if he didn't play those few minutes for Fiji, he wouldn't be at Leinster just yet. Maybe next year he would have made his way North.

Good point.

Sin é wrote:Would you not prefer to see Felix Jones/Rob Kearney in Green?

Yes. But can I have Nacewa on the bench?

While the subject of the original debate has completely changed, I will give my tuppence worth. I disagree with the whole residency thing. I can see it's merits and the fact that it could help developing nations improve but that doesn't seem likely to happen. I don't like the whole project player idea either.

I agree with you about holding an Irish passport. Thing is, Straus is not eligible for an Irish passport for example.

Residence and Naturalisation

If you don't qualify to become a citizen by birth or marriage, you can still apply for naturalisation if you've lived in Ireland for 5 years. Examples of people who might benefit from such a situation would be those who have been working here over a long period of time using work permits, or non-Irish dependents of Irish citizens. Specific information, once again, is available at the Department of Justice / Email: Department of Justice.

The following conditions must obtain before the Minister will confer citizenship on someone after meeting the residency requirements:

* The applicant must be resident in the State
* The applicant must be 18 years of age or older.
* The applicant must have resided in the State for five of the nine years preceding the application. The last year of this period must have been one of continuous residence.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they are of good character.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they intend to reside in Ireland after naturalisation.
* The applicant must make a formal declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state.

Persons studying in Ireland may not make an application. Study periods DO NOT Count toward the five year reckonable residence requirement when applying for naturalisation.

It should be borne in mind that the Minister for Justice grants naturalisation at his or her "absolute discretion".

Interesting point Gibbo but some of those who might have been brought up in England come from Irish households where they've always felt Irish even if they've never lived there.

Some people come to live here but always feel a very strong affinity to where they're from.

Gibson,

Now you are lowering the debate with the introduction of wendyball.

I'm looking forward to having my pint from you.

Kearney and Murphy to go to the WC you wrote.

20 years ago, Ireland were the plucky team that tried their best. Then the likes of Keith Woods and others decided that wasn't good enough, instilled a drive within those around them and Ireland had a target of winning games instead of playing in games. The younger players coming through got to experience winning games, and liked it.
10 years ago, that next generation decided that winning the odd game wasn't good enough and set about trying to win competitions (Celtic league, HC and 6N).
The generation to follow will come up through the ranks on teams that are competing to win competitions and will have the experience of seeing munster/leinster/ireland win trophys. Their task is to consisting keep us at the business end of the competitions.

On the international stage, outside of the 6Ns, we are still a generation back on the timeline I have set out. Our players are fed up of playing the SH's and getting the tag line of 'plucky'. This generation needs to break the back of only getting the one off win with the SH and build that into winning against SH teams consistently. In reality this RWC is too soon for the mindset of this Ireland team, ultimately there will be disappointment for those on their last hurray. I'd see us beating Oz as a successful world cup in the grand scheme of things. But we have to be able to beat a team wearing black jerseys in the next 3 years to be able to push on with the next generation of an international team.

greybeard wrote:I'd like to see an end to the "project player" concept. Teams have IQ, NIQ, that's it. If one day an NIQ becomes IQ due to residency I have no problem with that. I don't like the idea of specifically growing an Irishman in a lab, as it were, but if one springs up among the plants then I wouldn't say no.

I wouldn't increase the residency timeline, either, though. International careers are short enough.

I can't believe you wouldn't increase it. Residency is not designed for people who can't make it in their own country or who happen to fancy a few caps when they play abroad. 7 years is fairly ok. Warwick was here 7 years. He owns a home here with his Irish wife and will be coming back here when he retires. I can make peace with that. 7 years allows the 15 year old who moves here with his parents to represent his new country at the tender age of 22. It is long enough to the person to have shown committment.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I think Strauss would do well with Ireland. Hooker is an area where Ireland have really suffered with injury in recent years. Flannery regularly out of action, both fogarty's spring to mind, Best has had to deal with a fair share of knocks and set backs. Cronin is very young and in reality learning his craft.

In my own view, if someone holds an Irish passport, that makes them Irish in my eyes and they should be able to play for Ireland. If there are people out there who don't see think of them as Irish enough, then they should petition for the laws to be changed.

With regard to the argument that a 'foreign' player will take a place away from an Irish player, I think that is a non-runner. The very reason the 'foreign' player gets the place to begin with is because the best Irish equivalent isn't good enough. And so long as the 'foreign' player is elite level, their presence in any club/national setup should only serve to help other players in that position improve in training/competition.

Good post. If we are not happy, then we should call for the laws/rules to be changed or clarified. And you know what, I'd vote Irish born or from Irish born parents - ONLY. No Grannie-rule. Does make me a big fat Irish racist, Ted?


This sub-discussion would have made a great article on its own. I LOVE a discussion.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:But we have to be able to beat a team wearing black jerseys in the next 3 years to be able to push on with the next generation of an international team.

I don't know about next 3 years but yes thats where we need to be. It will happen someday.

Gibson wrote: Good post. If we are not happy, then we should call for the laws/rules to be changed or clarified

We are!!

I'm off for the spuds lads. :run2:

Catch you all later.

Sin é wrote:I agree with you about holding an Irish passport. Thing is, Straus is not eligible for an Irish passport for example.

Residence and Naturalisation

If you don't qualify to become a citizen by birth or marriage, you can still apply for naturalisation if you've lived in Ireland for 5 years. Examples of people who might benefit from such a situation would be those who have been working here over a long period of time using work permits, or non-Irish dependents of Irish citizens. Specific information, once again, is available at the Department of Justice / Email: Department of Justice.

The following conditions must obtain before the Minister will confer citizenship on someone after meeting the residency requirements:

* The applicant must be resident in the State
* The applicant must be 18 years of age or older.
* The applicant must have resided in the State for five of the nine years preceding the application. The last year of this period must have been one of continuous residence.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they are of good character.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they intend to reside in Ireland after naturalisation.
* The applicant must make a formal declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state.

Persons studying in Ireland may not make an application. Study periods DO NOT Count toward the five year reckonable residence requirement when applying for naturalisation.

It should be borne in mind that the Minister for Justice grants naturalisation at his or her "absolute discretion".

Thanks Sin é, I would hope then that the IRB/IRFU laws be brought into line with law. If someone works in Ireland for 5 years and can get an Irish passport, then they are Irish to me.

Stag,

I think if someone were to move here before 18, then 7 years is too long as at that point they are still trying to figure out their identity.

Gibson wrote:No Grannie-rule.

Unless she was a really lovely granny. Like Daniel O'Donnells.

greybeard wrote:

Sin é wrote:Chances are if he didn't play those few minutes for Fiji, he wouldn't be at Leinster just yet. Maybe next year he would have made his way North.

Good point.

Sin é wrote:Would you not prefer to see Felix Jones/Rob Kearney in Green?

Yes. But can I have Nacewa on the bench?

Stag,

We have to aim to beat the All Blacks in the run up to the next World Cup. It's just plain embarrassing there is another Nation we have never beaten in over a hundred years of rugby.

Ah Tayto man. I think Ive already won a "glass" of ya pal. Kearney will make it.. Murphy looks more doubtful. But, if he's fit, Deccie will take him for his vast experience as a top-class FB. Id have no problem with Felix coming in his place either. But Id rather he was backup - for now.

In other news... it's looking better for my other love-child.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0602/1224298257711.html

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:I agree with you about holding an Irish passport. Thing is, Straus is not eligible for an Irish passport for example.

Residence and Naturalisation

If you don't qualify to become a citizen by birth or marriage, you can still apply for naturalisation if you've lived in Ireland for 5 years. Examples of people who might benefit from such a situation would be those who have been working here over a long period of time using work permits, or non-Irish dependents of Irish citizens. Specific information, once again, is available at the Department of Justice / Email: Department of Justice.

The following conditions must obtain before the Minister will confer citizenship on someone after meeting the residency requirements:

* The applicant must be resident in the State
* The applicant must be 18 years of age or older.
* The applicant must have resided in the State for five of the nine years preceding the application. The last year of this period must have been one of continuous residence.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they are of good character.
* The applicant must satisfy the Minister that they intend to reside in Ireland after naturalisation.
* The applicant must make a formal declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state.

Persons studying in Ireland may not make an application. Study periods DO NOT Count toward the five year reckonable residence requirement when applying for naturalisation.

It should be borne in mind that the Minister for Justice grants naturalisation at his or her "absolute discretion".

Thanks Sin é, I would hope then that the IRB/IRFU laws be brought into line with law. If someone works in Ireland for 5 years and can get an Irish passport, then they are Irish to me.

Thanks for that Sin,
Its been a day for gleaning even more knowledge.

To be honest, compared to many sports I think rugby has it's house fairly well in order regarding international representation.

Yes there are always loopholes and the potential for abuse, but what we're describing isn't nearly as bad as the Jack Charlton days of RoI football ("I think they said he owns a tea-shop..."), or the early days of rugby where the likes of Brian Smith played both for and against Ireland within the space of two years.

Look at cricket, Ed Joyce played for Ireland, then for England, and then went back to Ireland. There were no disincentives. There is at least the disincentive in rugby that once you play for a country you're locked in.

That's why I'm not in favour of increasing residency. It's not perfect, no, but players lock themselves in to their adopted country. A mercenary in the truest sense wouldn't.

Strauss always comes up in this topic because his performances have been very very good this year. The rules are clear. If he's not capped and he plays here for three years then he's qualified to play for Ireland if he wants to. This rule is what it is. And as long as this is the rule I think the IRFU is just doing its job if it calls on a top quality player like Strauss to represent Ireland.

Nobody knows what Strauss thinks. I don't think he'd just represent Ireland to earn himself a few quid and take an Irishman's job. He'd do it if he feels it would be an honour to represent his adopted country and was willing to put 100% into it. If it was clear he didn't really care I don't think he'd last long in the team anyway.

Maybe the residency required should be increased. And maybe it should be the case that a player un-qualifies himself if he moves to a foreign club. This would prevent a Kiwi playing in France representing England because he used to play in England, which was a joke. But anyone we play, as long as its within the rules, is fine by me.

Feckless, I'd say Straus's motivation would be to compete at the highest level he can (and I wouldn't have a problem with that motivation).

The culture in Ireland about representation is though that you have to be from the place you represent - Parish, County, Province, Country. (Though I believe the last time the Dubs won an All Ireland Hurling Champ. in the 50s, there wasn't one native Dub on the team

All the players want to play for their Province - its seen as 2nd best if they don't. Players like Ian Dowling were treated like traitors for saying that coming from Kilkenny, they had more in common with Munster. Leinster fans are in raptures about their academy graduates - why? Because they are native to the province. Why do supporters care about that?

There has to be a difference between Country & Club rugby.

Sin é wrote:Feckless, I'd say Straus's motivation would be to compete at the highest level he can (and I wouldn't have a problem with that motivation).

One added issue with SA players is also the quota system (that doesn't exist (allegedly)) which can't help but figure in their decision making.

Sin é wrote:Players like Ian Dowling were treated like traitors for saying that coming from Kilkenny, they had more in common with Munster. Leinster fans are in raptures about their academy graduates - why? Because they are native to the province. Why do supporters care about that?

I think that is lessening to an extent. Cronin is joining Leinster, Keatley is joining Munster. I think most fans are just looking forward to watching them play.

red_stag wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:In my own view, if someone holds an Irish passport, that makes them Irish in my eyes and they should be able to play for Ireland. If there are people out there who don't see think of them as Irish enough, then they should petition for the laws to be changed.

He doesn't have a passport. He isn't Irish. If he did then so be it. There are others like Dan Tuohy who are not born or even raised here and none of us bat an eyelid. Its completely different. Strauss won't even have been in the country long enough to earn a passport.

What does yer man think of all the current and past Irish internationals who have UK passports?

I think considering our team is a team for both the Republic and the North we should keep passports out of it- the team 'Ireland' represents a greater area than the state of Ireland, albeit everyone born up here is eligible for Irish nationality. I have an Irish passport btw, and am very proud to hold it. But to be fair I was just as vociferous an Ireland fan when I had a British passport.

And ok, I'll admit I'm stirring a bit because there is a clear difference between someone who holds a different passport but can theoretically apply for and obtain and Irish passport at any time and someone who is not eligible for that.

Notch, you may be stirring, but it's a valid point. If it was about passports, Jared Payne, for example, could never be a project player, because he would only ever be eligible for a British passport.

People talking about using passports are being hopelessly naive.

I believe the same residency criteria for Irish nationality is used regardless of where on the island of Ireland you live, non?

Don Alfonso wrote:Notch, you may be stirring, but it's a valid point. If it was about passports, Jared Payne, for example, could never be a project player, because he would only ever be eligible for a British passport.

People talking about using passports are being hopelessly naive.

I know Notch is stirring it etc. etc.

Payne's ineligibility for an Irish passport would not prevent him for playing for Ulster though. Easy enough for the IRFU to forget about the 'project' and just have 6 NIQ players.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know how Boss's eligibility worked out. Presumably he would not have been eligible for an Irish passport as his connection is his NI granny. Would he have had to produce his granny's birth cert to distinguish him from other UK areas covered by his British passport?

Yes, Notch, for rugby. My point is, that if an Irish passort was criteria to become IQ through residency, Ulster would not be able to get project players unless they were happy to live in Ulster, but outside NI, hours from Belfast.

MBTGOG wrote:Stag,

We have to aim to beat the All Blacks in the run up to the next World Cup. It's just plain embarrassing there is another Nation we have never beaten in over a hundred years of rugby.

I would trade all of Munsters and Ulsters Heino cups for one victory v NZ. One win would lead to more.

I would trade all the Irish provinces trophies plus Leinsters for a WC final appearance.

No idea, Sin. I can just imagine the other province's delght, though, if Ulster were allowed 6 NIQ. That's too many, by any standards.

Don Alfonso wrote:Yes, Notch, for rugby. My point is, that if an Irish passort was criteria to become IQ through residency, Ulster would not be able to get project players unless they were happy to live in Ulster, but outside NI, hours from Belfast.

Nope, I think for Irish citizenship as well Don.

What d'you mean?

Sin é wrote:Ireland won't be going anywhere until Irish players/supporters dump the idea that we need a 'foreigner' to bring us to the next level. The notion that our homegrown coaches are not "wholly professional" is laughable.

I just don't get this mentality at all of 'Ireland coach bad', 'foreign coach good'. You've either a good coach or you are not a good coach. Nationality has nothing got to do with it.

You took me out of context, Sin é.

I felt a foreign coach would help beat a very typical Irish attitude in sport, where we are marked as the underdogs. The national team has, in my eyes, only once meaningfully batted that stigma away, when the Grand Slam was claimed in 2009. A foreign head coach may inject a different perspective into the squad, and that a squad of new beginnings too. It would also allow many Irish coaches to further their experience in the provincial set-ups, of which there are many promising candidates. It seems a best-fit solution, and a gamble worthwhile. The interim to which I was referring in my post was the 2011-2015 cycle.

If you've a point to make, cite better sources. Don't cite a fragment of my post.

leinsterbaby wrote: I would trade all of Munsters and Ulsters Heino cups for one victory v NZ. One win would lead to more.

I would trade all the Irish provinces trophies plus Leinsters for a WC final appearance.

What nonsense you would trade 3 Heineken Cups and 4 Magners Leagues to beat NZ. Get over yourself. And trading 5 Heinken Cups and 6 Magners Leagues for 0 Cups is nonsense.

Its been a gradual process. Leinster wouldn't have won their trophies without Munsters ones to build on and similarly I see Ireland building on Leinsters success.

Don Alfonso wrote:What d'you mean?

Well I thought living for a long enough period in Northern Ireland now qualifies you for Irish citizenship in the same way it would in the Republic.

I see on wikipedia (good old wikipedia) that you can do so, but only if married to an Irish citizen. Otherwise the residency must be in the Republic, so you were right and I was wrong. Nevertheless I'm sure we'll both acknowledge that the point is totally moot as the IRFU don;t use this criteria for player eligibility anyway!

Don Alfonso wrote:No idea, Sin. I can just imagine the other province's delght, though, if Ulster were allowed 6 NIQ. That's too many, by any standards.

Well, it could be Ulster 6 NIQ, the rest of the provinces, 5 NIQ + 1 Project Player.

Simple!

I know just play more like Leinster!

http://yfrog.com/gzsnkeuj

red_stag wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote: I would trade all of Munsters and Ulsters Heino cups for one victory v NZ. One win would lead to more.

I would trade all the Irish provinces trophies plus Leinsters for a WC final appearance.

What nonsense you would trade 3 Heineken Cups and 4 Magners Leagues to beat NZ. Get over yourself. And trading 5 Heinken Cups and 6 Magners Leagues for 0 Cups is nonsense.

Its been a gradual process. Leinster wouldn't have won their trophies without Munsters ones to build on and similarly I see Ireland building on Leinsters success.

Jees someone takes themself very serious. Get over yourself.

Its been a gradual process. Leinster wouldn't have won their trophies without Munsters ones to build on and similarly I see Ireland building on Leinsters success.

________

If you believe that you would believe anything

Leinsterbaby, I do believe it. The same way that Munster learnt from the Leicester Tigers team that won the 2001 and 2002 Heineken Cups.

Losing the 2006 HEC Semi Finals as they did was one of the best things to happen Leinster rugby.

red_stag wrote:Leinsterbaby, I do believe it. The same way that Munster learnt from the Leicester Tigers team that won the 2001 and 2002 Heineken Cups.

Losing the 2006 HEC Semi Finals as they did was one of the best things to happen Leinster rugby.

So because Leinster lost to Munster in a semi they owe all their success to Munster. Get a grip. Rivalries help but Leinster won in 09 and 11 because of systems structures and development Leinster staff from head coach down put in place to make Leinster one of the most professional and well run outfits in Europe a culmination of years of hard work from as far back as the Matt Williams era to Cheika. Leinster lost to Munster in 06 because their pack wasn't good enough.

[quote="leinsterbaby"]I know just play more like Leinster!

Not in Thomond Park though.

Hydroxymoron wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ireland won't be going anywhere until Irish players/supporters dump the idea that we need a 'foreigner' to bring us to the next level. The notion that our homegrown coaches are not "wholly professional" is laughable.

I just don't get this mentality at all of 'Ireland coach bad', 'foreign coach good'. You've either a good coach or you are not a good coach. Nationality has nothing got to do with it.

You took me out of context, Sin é.

I felt a foreign coach would help beat a very typical Irish attitude in sport, where we are marked as the underdogs. The national team has, in my eyes, only once meaningfully batted that stigma away, when the Grand Slam was claimed in 2009. A foreign head coach may inject a different perspective into the squad, and that a squad of new beginnings too. It would also allow many Irish coaches to further their experience in the provincial set-ups, of which there are many promising candidates. It seems a best-fit solution, and a gamble worthwhile. The interim to which I was referring in my post was the 2011-2015 cycle.

If you've a point to make, cite better sources. Don't cite a fragment of my post.

I'm not too sure what is wrong with the 'very typical Irish attitude to sport'. After all, we probably overachieve in general. Top golfers, top jockeys, top boxers, top race car drivers and we have had some top soccer players (i.e., Roy Keane was probably one of the best known players on the planet, not to mention George Best being regarded as one of the three/4 best players in the world, ever!). Then you have our amateur gaelic football players going toe-to-toe with the Aussie professionals for the International Rules. EDIT: Not to mention our horse breeding/training the best in the world. Certainly, Ireland is the most successful country.

Munster have probably over achieved in the last 10 years when you think of it. Same with Ireland. Up to 10 years ago, Ireland just didn't have the players. We have had them over the last 10 years or so, but not the depth that you need to dominate. We're always about 2 injuries away from a loss.

I'm really beginning to think this 'foreign coach necessary' is a Dublin attitude. Dublin GAA are the biggest under achievers - its a case of when not if will their challenge collapse and counties with much smaller resources knock them out every time.

Interesting that Leinster have not produced one top coach in a long time, if ever (unless you count Conor O'Shea who left Leinster about 15/16 years ago) and only one Ireland coach (Ronnie Dawson). Even Connacht, with its tiny playing population gave us Ciaran Fitzgerald.

I think this supposed Irish attitude to sport is a Dublin attitude, rather than an Irish one.