How Ireland make the jump to next level

First topic message reminder :

We have no Autumn Internationals in 2011 due to World Cup. Does anyone else think rather than introducing our youngsters against South African and New Zealand the next step for Ireland is to use the 6 Nations as a training ground and target away wins over the Southern Hemisphere in the summer with a full strenght squad?

Away wins are the next step for us if we are serious about progressing in the future?

My 2 cents

I think we may have to try something radical to make the step up to where the 3N are. We have always fallen short of that and in the next few years we will have to come to terms with losing our 2 best players of the professional era. I think we need to identify the talent that will be around in 4 years time and try and bring it through. We have guys like Heaslip, Ferris (god willing), Sexton, Kearney, Fitz, Healy, Earls, Trimble and Bowe who have phenomenal experience for their years and are capable enough of performing the role of bringing in younger guys.

Im not suggesting that we completely jettison older guys particularly in positions where we are struggling with young talent but i think we need to be much more open to giving younger players a go. A lot of the players we are mentioning now as getting gametime next season are hypothetical as we dont know what form or fitness they will have by next February.

1. Healy is the incumbent while Tom Court has flattered to deceive in the green. Paddy McAllister will push him hard. (Paddy Mc for an A cap)
2. Best is the incumbent and relatively young. Cronin, Sherry and possibly Strauss could push. (Cronin to get some 6N gametime)
3. Ross is by some distance the incumbent. Hagan will get gametime with Leinster so we will see. Deccie Fitz may benefit from a full pre season too. (I wouldnt be averse to seeing Hagan or Fitz get a game in the 6N dependent on form. Definately both for the A squad)
4. DOC; very hard to see where the young guys are coming from. Tuohy could be option if he has form (i expect him to be with Ulster durung the RWC)
5. POC and Cullen. To be honest i think Cullen wont be considered anymore. Nagle will benefit from the RWC in terms of gametime. (Tuohy and Nagle for the A's/full squad during the 6N)
6.SOB/Ferris; no real need to rush young talent but Ruddock/McLaughlin for the A's)
7.Wallace; Place may be taken by SOB if Ferris is fit. Dominic Ryans form will be interesting while Willie Faloon may come strong. (Ryan for the A's with Faloon backing up)
8.Heaslip; imo a future Captain; again no rush for an alternative given his years but Ruddock can do a job at 8.
9. Reddan; Conor Murray is coming through and given that he may well make the RWC squad i would be very keen for him to see 6N gametime
10. Sexton; no rush due to his youth. Keatley at Munster will be interesting. Probably still too soon for Paddy Jackson although i would mind him backing up Keatley or iHUmph for the A's
11. Trimble/Earls; too very good, and still young options but Craig Gilroy will be breathing down their neck. Gilroy for an A call up and potentially (if unlikely) a bench spot in the squad.
12. D'arcy; McFadden may well make this spot his own. Other options are Spence (although i dont think he is a 12) and Luke Marshall. McFadden to take D'arce s spot and Marshall to get the A call up
13. BOD; almost impossible to drop. If we are not on for a Slam though i wouldnt mind seeing an alternative here, be it McFadden, Spence, Cave (long shot) or Bowe.. NOT EARLS!
14. Bowe; This position is grand as Trimble can move across. Again Gilroy and potentially Conway/ Gaston could thrive during the RWC
15. Kearney; Earls offers a running threat here but i much prefere him on the wing. Felix Jones must get gametime during the 6N imo.

I am probably leaving many guys out but the young guys i have identified (and excuse any Ulster bias) need to be brought through in the first 2 years after this RWC if their form warrants it. I admit i havent seen enough of the Connacht/Munster guys so am curious to know if guys like O'Mahoney, Zebo or anyone could come through

leinsterbaby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Leinsterbaby, I do believe it. The same way that Munster learnt from the Leicester Tigers team that won the 2001 and 2002 Heineken Cups.

Losing the 2006 HEC Semi Finals as they did was one of the best things to happen Leinster rugby.

So because Leinster lost to Munster in a semi they owe all their success to Munster. Get a grip. Rivalries help but Leinster won in 09 and 11 because of systems structures and development Leinster staff from head coach down put in place to make Leinster one of the most professional and well run outfits in Europe a culmination of years of hard work from as far back as the Matt Williams era to Cheika. Leinster lost to Munster in 06 because their pack wasn't good enough.

Former Leinster coach Michael Cheika makes no bones about the fact that Munster were his role models as he fashioned Leinster into the force they are.

"I'm not embarrassed to say Munster were always out target." he says in an interview with Peter Bills in today's Irish Independent. "Obviously we wanted to be our own team, we didn't necessarily want to be like them in style. But they were the standard bearers in Ireland and that was our first target, to try to become the best team in Ireland before we could think about becoming the best team in Europe."

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/7737.php

"Munster were such difficult opponents and still are in every game." he continued. "They really want to beat you especially in the derby matches and in those games, desire is probably bigger than the technical viewpoint.

And in explaining how to create the type of crowd passion so famously lacking in Leinster supporters prior to his arrival, Cheika said, " Leinster were always associated with flashy football and we didn't want to change that. But we just wanted to add a bit of steel, to give our people what they want, which is a team that believes in itself.

"Munster do that all the time; they have a great identity, that earthy sort of feel about them.

"I loved the games against them and I was very respectful of their pedigree, their history."

Red Stag
Why would you be more annoyed at losing to SA in 2010 than your loss to Scotland.

I don't remember/ didn't see the games but losing to a higher ranked team is better than losing to a lower ranked team isn't it?

nganboy wrote:Red Stag
Why would you be more annoyed at losing to SA in 2010 than your loss to Scotland.

I don't remember/ didn't see the games but losing to a higher ranked team is better than losing to a lower ranked team isn't it?

Actually Scotland played much better in that one off game than South Africa did later in the year. Not saying that makes them a better team or anything, the rankings do not lie, but Scotland played out of their skins to beat us. South Africa, on the other hand, had a definite off day and were there for the taking; unfortunately we had a worse off day.

nganboy wrote:Red Stag
Why would you be more annoyed at losing to SA in 2010 than your loss to Scotland.

I don't remember/ didn't see the games but losing to a higher ranked team is better than losing to a lower ranked team isn't it?

Yes it is I know what you mean.

We had beaten South Africa I think 3 times in a row and I was disappointed with the manner of defeat. We had a poor 6 Nations in 2010 and I wasn't all that surprised by the Scotland defeat.

Not a WUM but whats everyones thoughts on Schmidt being brought in to a coaching role? Too little time to make an impact? OK with the coaching team we have? Could create more harm than good?

Or is it a case that he doesn't want to be associated with another Ireland failure at the world cup - especially at this early stage of his career (he is virtually unkown to most Kiwi's I've spoken to)?

Goosestepper wrote:Not a WUM but whats everyones thoughts on Schmidt being brought in to a coaching role? Too little time to make an impact? OK with the coaching team we have? Could create more harm than good?

Or is it a case that he doesn't want to be associated with another Ireland failure at the world cup - especially at this early stage of his career (he is virtually unkown to most Kiwi's I've spoken to)?

He's a great coach but his role is over stated and this would not be a good idea. Leinster won the 2008 Magners League, they won the 2009 Heineken Cup, they topped the Magners League table in 2010. They did not become a good team when Schmidt arrived. Schmidt uses his skills as a backs coach in tandem with Jono Gibbes skills as a forwards coach. But he is not the messiah people make him out to be. He very nearly cost Leinster a Heineken Cup with his selection in the final - Jennings and van der Merwe both should have started that game.

Realistically he has done no better than our current crop of coaches who have won many trophies. He inherited a good Leinster team and did well with them.

Goosestepper wrote:Not a WUM but whats everyones thoughts on Schmidt being brought in to a coaching role? Too little time to make an impact? OK with the coaching team we have? Could create more harm than good?

Or is it a case that he doesn't want to be associated with another Ireland failure at the world cup - especially at this early stage of his career (he is virtually unkown to most Kiwi's I've spoken to)?

Goose. No. Leave Kidney to get on with it. Methinks he has learned a lot from Schmidt's attacking style. He would never admit it. But, at least he had the nous to take Feek on as scrum-coach.

I want Leinster to progress under Schmidt. Hands off.

Schmidt would be perfect, to take Ireland to that next level. But not yet. I want more silverware for Leinster, before that option becomes a reality.

I'm inclined to agree - however the coaching staff really need to step up. I think the skills and experience is there and hopefully enough of the pain of France is still etched in their memories (even though they weren't part of that debacle). I think the warm up matchs need to try out new combos as much as new players. There's nothing wrong with putting a few established players out of their comfort zones.

It's also crucial that every player feels he is competing for a starting spot. This is my main objection to players like MOD and P Wallace travelling - I don't want to slight playing ability and I don't do provicial bias- but given the last few years you can forgive them for having a mindset that they are their as cover players

red_stag wrote:Its been a gradual process. Leinster wouldn't have won their trophies without Munsters ones to build on and similarly I see Ireland building on Leinsters success.

Staggy, are you sure about that? Tis a bold claim!

Some of the language used by Munster supports here is a big bog ignorant to be honest ..."sent home with his tail between his legs" ect..

You are not doing yourselves any favors with that stuff lads. None at all.

Then Sine goes on about the Mafi and Howlett Juniors....not a chance they will stay 1 minute in Cork or Limerick if their fathers arent being paid (to keep young Irish lads out of a position).

And were ye all beying and crying that Warrick cant qualify for Ireland??

Honestly, there are some amount of hypocrites on here. Some things dont change. SO parochial.

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Leinsterbaby, I do believe it. The same way that Munster learnt from the Leicester Tigers team that won the 2001 and 2002 Heineken Cups.

Losing the 2006 HEC Semi Finals as they did was one of the best things to happen Leinster rugby.

So because Leinster lost to Munster in a semi they owe all their success to Munster. Get a grip. Rivalries help but Leinster won in 09 and 11 because of systems structures and development Leinster staff from head coach down put in place to make Leinster one of the most professional and well run outfits in Europe a culmination of years of hard work from as far back as the Matt Williams era to Cheika. Leinster lost to Munster in 06 because their pack wasn't good enough.

Former Leinster coach Michael Cheika makes no bones about the fact that Munster were his role models as he fashioned Leinster into the force they are.

"I'm not embarrassed to say Munster were always out target." he says in an interview with Peter Bills in today's Irish Independent. "Obviously we wanted to be our own team, we didn't necessarily want to be like them in style. But they were the standard bearers in Ireland and that was our first target, to try to become the best team in Ireland before we could think about becoming the best team in Europe."

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/7737.php

"Munster were such difficult opponents and still are in every game." he continued. "They really want to beat you especially in the derby matches and in those games, desire is probably bigger than the technical viewpoint.

And in explaining how to create the type of crowd passion so famously lacking in Leinster supporters prior to his arrival, Cheika said, " Leinster were always associated with flashy football and we didn't want to change that. But we just wanted to add a bit of steel, to give our people what they want, which is a team that believes in itself.

"Munster do that all the time; they have a great identity, that earthy sort of feel about them.

"I loved the games against them and I was very respectful of their pedigree, their history."

“Crowd passion so famously lacking”
 
This statement is classic Munster tosh and exposes munsterrugby.ie as an incredibly unreliable source of information when it comes to Leinster. As if we needed confirmation. Since it began Leinster has the highest average attendance in the Magners league despite having one of the smallest grounds in the competition for around half the duration of the competition. Just because Leinster fans don’t wear full Leinster gear to bed every night doesn’t mean they don’t support their team. Just because they don’t drape banners around their stadium thanking GOD that they’re from Leinster doesn’t mean they don’t support their team. Utter nonsense don’t believe everything you read on munsterrugby.ie.
 
 
Cheika’s comments
 
Cheika is a clever guy he paid complements to every coach and team in the league. Anything positive he said about Munster he knew that the Munster loving section of the media would lap it up like the compliment hungry fools they are. He was just keeping Munster sweet so he could attract the likes of Paul Warick to Stade. I wouldn’t be surprised if his comments were in response to questions where he was asked specifically about Munster. Sound bites don’t believe everything you hear in interviews.
 
“Add a bit of steel”, “flashy football”
 
Early days in the ML Leinster’s forwards were not good enough to win trophies. We had so called ligends like Victor Costello, Reggie Corrigan and big Mal who were actually not great players at all compared to their Leinster equivalent today. Our backs were however first class so we played to our strengths. The hard fact is we have much better forwards these days because of development and coaching structures put in place to build strength in all parts of our squad. If you reckon that Munster deserve praise for this you have rocks for brains.

Boyne, what is igorant about it. I would love a situation where we are strong enough that people like Strauss can't get into our starting XV. Its nothing to do with Leinster v Munster - please don't make it as such.

I would love to have a fully Irish Munster XV. I think Leinster are actually capable of doing it in the next 5 years. I don't see how I am being hypocritical. I understand we all have foreign players - I would prefer to see a situation like NZ. I wouldn't say I am being a hypocrite. As I have said the residency period is too short and I find the notion of project players disgraceful. I assure you I feel the same about Peter Borlase.

Asbo - yes its a bold claim. IMO Leinsters Euro winning team (2009-2011) is better than Munsters (2006-2008) one. They always had better backs than we did. But they have taken the forward power, backrow nous and passionate play that I always prided Munster on having. As Cheika has said they looked at Munster and raised the bar higher.

leinsterbaby wrote:If you reckon that Munster deserve praise for this you have rocks for brains.

No they don't deserve praise. I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Munster were an Irish team who won multiple Heineken Cups in a short period. Leinster probably had a better team on paper at the time and failed to deliver. Munsters success and the beating they gave Leinster along the way in doing so made Leinster sit down and re-evalutate how things were done.

Munster only deserve praise for their own achievements. Leinster have in my opinion raised the bar and are a better team for it. But I do think that Musnters success was a factor in Leinster succeeding what they have.

red_stag wrote:Asbo - yes its a bold claim. IMO Leinsters Euro winning team (2009-2011) is better than Munsters (2006-2008) one. They always had better backs than we did. But they have taken the forward power, backrow nous and passionate play that I always prided Munster on having. As Cheika has said they looked at Munster and raised the bar higher.

Staggy, but those characteristics could equally be ascribed to any number of successful rugby teams? Cheika is a smart man, has seen what works all over the world

Asbo - of course they could. However I believe that Leinster looked to Munster for these qualities. Ireland is like that. Anthony Foley was talking at the ML final about the motivation Munster are taking from watching their rivals do well. Leinster watched their biggest rivals succeed with inferior players, they were dispatched comfortably along the way, they had a point to prove and have become probably the best provincial XV Ireland has known.

Losing the 2006 HEC Semi Finals as they did was one of the best things to happen Leinster rugby.

_______

Sadly I think that losing to Perpignan in the semis in '03 was when the realisation set in that Leinster would not win a Heineken cup until we had a much stronger forward unit. However, a lot of the dead wood was still in the team when we lost to Munster in 06. Costello retired in 05 Corrigan 06. Around then there was a gradual shift in the forwards which paid dividends in 09. Not many great teams have poor forwards.

On paper the forwards were fine but I always felt there was an unwillingness to win unless it was the "Leinster way". The Welsh can be like that. Actually many Munster fans are critical of the wide open play McGahan has tried to get us playing in the ML.

But a good side needs multiple weapons and this Leinster team has a lineout, a scrum, a ferocious ability at breakdown and devastating backline.

red_stag wrote:On paper the forwards were fine but I always felt there was an unwillingness to win unless it was the "Leinster way". The Welsh can be like that. Actually many Munster fans are critical of the wide open play McGahan has tried to get us playing in the ML.

But a good side needs multiple weapons and this Leinster team has a lineout, a scrum, a ferocious ability at breakdown and devastating backline.

They were playing to their strengths just as munster arguably are now.

I'm not sure Leinster learned too much from Munster, though they did win in 09 in a very Munsterish way, but it was seeing their rivals do so well which probably spurred them on to a greater level.

As is the case vice-versa now though there is an interesting difference with Ulster sneaking up from behind.

leinsterbaby wrote:

red_stag wrote:On paper the forwards were fine but I always felt there was an unwillingness to win unless it was the "Leinster way". The Welsh can be like that. Actually many Munster fans are critical of the wide open play McGahan has tried to get us playing in the ML.

But a good side needs multiple weapons and this Leinster team has a lineout, a scrum, a ferocious ability at breakdown and devastating backline.

They were playing to their strengths just as munster arguably are now.

They certainly were. As you say any great team needs strenghts in forwards and back (and actually on bench too). Looking back I'm amazed Munster won that 2006 Heineken Cup. Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan, Shaun Payne in the back line

I was surprised too but Biarritz weren't exactly without faults themselves. Munster were a bit like the Perpignan team that got to the final in 03. Very solid very good pack, decent hard working backs but nothing special.

leinsterbaby wrote:I was surprised too but Biarritz weren't exactly without faults themselves. Munster were a bit like the Perpignan team that got to the final in 03. Very solid very good pack, decent hard working backs but nothing special.

To be honest that doesn't work anymore. The best teams Northampton, Toulose, Leinster do well because of 1-15 ability. Munster wouldn't have won the recent Magners League game against Leinster without the likes of Earls, Howlett and Jones. Its better for the game.

Also Munster had Stringer and OGara who were in the form of their lives especially Stringer who might be the best scrum half Ireland have ever produced despite his flaws.

leinsterbaby wrote:Also Munster had Stringer and OGara who were in the form of their lives especially Stringer who might be the best scrum half Ireland have ever produced despite his flaws.

1-10 we were in pretty good nick. The scrum wasn't an issue 5 years ago. The lineout was unstoppable with the O'Connell, Hayes, Flannery axis. The backrow was very good and the half backs worked. We lived off scraps in the backline.

I was there in Cardiff that day also have the DVD. It was a forward dominated game typical final. Munster ground them down. Was delighted for Stringer that is was his moment of magic that separated the teams. Great player no fear.

christ - new forum old parochial rivalry. Inever posted on BBC 606 to avoid this. Thought we might be getting past this blue v Red nonsense. As a Leinster fan it would be very easy to get sucked in to it but lets try and keep reason as the moderating factor here (god forbid Cyril or Sincero shows up on these boards)

Goosestepper I agree with you on one thing. "Ireland first and foremost". Quality!

Goosestepper wrote:christ - new forum old parochial rivalry. Inever posted on BBC 606 to avoid this. Thought we might be getting past this blue v Red nonsense. As a Leinster fan it would be very easy to get sucked in to it but lets try and keep reason as the moderating factor here (god forbid Cyril or Sincero shows up on these boards)

I think we have got past that easily enough. Leinsterbaby and myself have shown we can be very complimentary about each others teams. I wouldn't worry Goose!

I'm not sure we'll ever fully get away with it but as long as no one ends up in hospital.........! I actually think it is in most respects a healthy rivalvry to have. I just hate it when it clouds/colours peoples views of how the Irish team is managed.

Goosestepper wrote:I just hate it when it clouds/colours peoples views of how the Irish team is managed.

I agree. I hate when people resort to terms like bias, hypocrite or dismiss peoples arguments based on the team they support.