NH debrief - and ways forward

by MarcusHalberstram Sun 18 Oct 2015, 10:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

The results of this weekend will be analysed to death and agonised over for the next four years. If you were being positive you could say that for a few strokes of luck, Scotland and Wales could have both been in the semi-finals. On the other hand we can look at the results and just say the NH sides all came up short again.

I thought I’d start a thread for NH (and SH) fans to dump their thoughts on the NH sides as a whole and how/if they think problems can be fixed in the coming years.

NH sides
Firstly I think the most common problem for all NH sides is that passing and attacking skills are just generally poor in comparison to SH sides – and especially compared to the ABs. To be honest, I thought some of the so-called 2nd-tier nations displayed better attacking skills than the 6N sides (Japan and Canada immediately spring to mind). Let’s face it, to call sides like Japan 2nd tier is a little ridiculous. 1st tier right now is basically the 4N. Us 6N sides are basically 2nd tier. And Argentina are only going to get better too – their Super Rugby team will basically BE Argentina. They could easily be the best side in the world in a few years given how familiar they’re likely to become with each other.

I think that up here in the NH we have serious issues in developing core skills for professional rugby players. The primary focus at youth level should be improving handling skills. I also think our club season structure and the 6N is not helping us at all. The 6N quality is clearly not developing the kind of attack-minded rugby needed to succeed at the RWC.

Just a few thoughts I had on some of the NH sides as seen in this RWC:

Wales
My own team, so naturally I’m likely to be a little biased on judgement. What impressed me most about Wales was their attitude this year. I don’t think anyone relishes playing us these days, and our defence is now one of the best around. The persistence of spirit has been fantastic to see and made me very proud – especially since in the past we’ve seen so many Welsh sides that just roll over and give up when the going gets tough.

Our primary issue is obvious for all to see – attack. Sure – we had an absurd injury crisis, but even with a full deck we’ve had trouble scoring tries in the last couple of years. More so than any NH side, we really need to discover some attacking intent and ability. If we could do that, we could still become a genuine force to be reckoned with (most of our players are still young enough to make at least another RWC), but sadly it seems that the distribution skills required are just absent from many of our backs.

Ireland
Ireland with a full head of steam and with their fanatical fans (the world’s loudest) screaming them on is something few sides can live with. But this strength is almost a weakness since they seem to be a side that need to be emotionally-engaged and full of aggression in order to perform (even more than most). They also seem to now be heavily reliant on set-plays, of which we’ve all been told that Schmidt is a mastermind. The problem is, these plays seem very prescriptive, need to be executed perfectly and, right now, rarely seem to come off.

Like Wales, Ireland were ultimately very unlucky with losing so many key players before their quarter final – but I have to say, I think Sexton has become overrated and is nowhere near the form he was in a year or two back. In fact, I’d thought that the Irish team in general seemed to be off form – and even in the 6N weren’t as good as many had them down as. For the warm-up games there was lots of talk about how they had been conditioned to peak in the RWC and that Schmidt was holding things back, but I didn’t buy it. If I was Irish I’d have been pretty worried about how ordinary they looked against Wales (in the second game) and England.

For all that, I think that the despair and “sack the coach” shouting coming from some Irish fans now is a little knee-jerk. Ireland were dealt a very bad hand with the injuries sustained against France. Would they have beaten Argentina with a full deck of cards…? Who knows.

England
Despite how much fun it’s been for us all to watch the English fans and media tear themselves apart, we all know England could well appoint a new coach and go on to win a 6N Grand Slam next year, just as Wales did in 2008. England still have resources the rest of us can only dream of – though as long as they operate their current club system I can’t see them ever making the most of them.

They were unlucky to end up in the “group of death”, but I guess in hindsight their failure to win big matches (6N deciders) in the last few years was a worry. When they were playing well during the last year or so, I have to say England’s attack looked probably the most exciting of the NH sides.

Scotland
I can only imagine how heart-broken the Scots fans are after today’s loss. Obviously they’ve had it fairly rough the last few years, but there are at finally signs of improvement, I guess. The 6N may be a little “devalued” in terms of measuring us all against SH opposition, but I don’t think anyone will really take Scotland seriously until they start winning 3 or 4 games in the 6N. I hope Cotter can get their standard up, because it can only be good for the NH sides. At the moment we basically have Ireland, Wales and England contesting the 6N every year and the blue sides there to make up the numbers. It’s clearly to the detriment of NH rugby and the sooner the standard is raised across the board the better.

France
Let’s face it, despite what the Irish fans may want to believe after last week, France are fairly awful and have been for years now. They rarely look like they give two hoots about things, and I just don’t get them at all. Can’t really say much more than that to be honest.

Your thoughts and criticisms most welcome!

Interested to hear all your thoughts on how we can drag NH rugby up to the top table.

by SecretFly Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:38 pm

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Nobody is saying Argentina didn't deserve their win. They thrashed us and very much did deserve their win.

Some seem to say that's why we were grand in what we did. It was the best we could do under the circumstances. Again, fine. That's true.

The point is, it shouldn't be true. Argentina learned how to play a game that could compete with the SH 3 - they learned how to play it well through four years. Those teams and methods are there for every NH coach to see - live and then relived in recordings as often as they like.

But Argentina learns and NH sides (some of them) don't. That's the issue. NH ignores the highest standard until they have to play to the highest standard every four years. Too late is too late....again.

Well what are you suggesting that we join the Rugby championship? If so I'm all for it - in fact lets all go down and base our selves in the SH, it's bloody freezing here and full of moaners .

Or we can accept the limitations of our circumstances - the weather, populations, economics, genetics, traditions - and within those work to keep progressing bit by bit under one of the worlds best coaches.

Everyone is looking at rose tinted glasses to a time that never was - Ireland have never consistently beat the top SH teams or mounted a serious challenge at a RWC and this is as close as we've ever been to doing it.

We beat all the teams ranked below us and lost to the first better team we faced - despite the scoreline that was a very close contest and given the injuries and how well the Pumas were playing no sane person should have seen us as anything other than underdogs in that game.

When you play teams of equal or better ability you need a bit of luck at times and maybe we didn't get that - the same could be said for the other NH sides.

Right ya be, rodders. See you back here in four year's time for the quarter's drop out party Wink

by MunsterMac Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:40 pm

So just to be clear here 'Fly you're talking about coaching existing players already at the provinces?

by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:40 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Aus would have upped their game had Wales fielded a stronger team.

Well they upped their game to play the team Wales put out, how many gears do you reckon the Aussies have ?

If we had Scott Williams or Jonathan Davies in the center that day against 13 men, we would have scored a try. We didn't have them, so we have to live with it. Also, if we had a decent bench we could have made changes to react to the situations we were in, again we didn't so we have to live with it.

There is not much between Wales, South Africa and Australia, as was proven in this WC, Wales give them a right good game, whilst missing over half a dozen key players.

England on the other hand were shown their own arris, and that was with a full team.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Aus would have upped their game had Wales fielded a stronger team.

Well they upped their game to play the team Wales put out, how many gears do you reckon the Aussies have ?

If we had Scott Williams or Jonathan Davies in the center that day against 13 men, we would have scored a try. We didn't have them, so we have to live with it. Also, if we had a decent bench we could have made changes to react to the situations we were in, again we didn't so we have to live with it.

There is not much between Wales, South Africa and Australia, as was proven in this WC, Wales give them a right good game, whilst missing over a dozen key players.

England on the other hand were shown their own arris, and that was with a full team.

It's almost like a fact.

by **rodders** Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Right ya be, rodders. See you back here in four year's time for the quarter's drop out party

Na fly, without O'Connell and Payne I can't even see us qualifying next time Cool

.

by **rodders** Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:
MunsterMac wrote:So form an Irish perspective then 'Fly, what should Ireland do to attain those standards by 2019?

Coach them. Simple. Coach furious pace. Coach accuracy of passing and offloading at Pace. Coach quick thinking in the close using passing and offloading. Coach sprint stamina. Coach sprinting - best practice, best poise, best starts. Coach increased personal timings through the ranks. Demand improvements. Don't accept simply sustaining present values.

But that's how we do train and we're still rubbish - Maybe Joe should ease up a bit and slow the training down! Smile

by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:48 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's almost like a fact.

We had North in the center butchering over laps all over the place. If we had proper centers then they would have either given the pass, or made something happen, instead we had North just running at the opposition and playing to their strengths.

by 123456789. Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:52 pm

The way forward is not to panic and suggest a radical overhaul of the structure of rugby in our continent, Scotland should be in the semis, Wales arguably should be too (and potentially would be if it weren't for injuries), Ireland were very poor in one game but arguably their four best players were unavailable and that Australia game is not an accurate representation of the standard of English rugby players (although it probably is about the standard of the coaching) and the French problems are well documented.

For me the key is the development of players, the emphasis on size at youth level is stupid. I played in a team of large players at club level and we regularly reached finals and semi-finals each year where we'd come across a better skilled side and lose, in that team four of us could throw a spin pass of both hands, one was an exceptional flanker, two of them were the half-backs and I played at 12, but 7 players could bench 100Kg+ at 16. In the last two years we finished second bottom and bottom of our league. The forwards admittedly were very good at rucking, mauling and scrummaging but in the backs we spent all of our time practising backs moves that we rarely used during the game and rarely worked when we did use them, my best friend played at second row and was picked for county because the county coach saw the size of him as he left the changing room before the game, his rugby was pretty much irrelevant. Secondly whilst I don't buy into the "summer rugby" argument, it seems stupid that every year there's a minimum three month period for players to lose interest in the game, and also the fact that club rugby matches kick off at 11am on a Sunday morning, we need to accept that from the ages of 15/16 kids playing rugby the night before will want to spend saturday night drinking and trying to chat up girls at house parties and with that comes the prospect of a sunday morning trip hungover to play an away match, which is hardly appealing. If we focus on skill and stamina rather than pure size (I've tried my best to write that sentence in a less euphemistic way believe me but as is often the way with such things one I thought of it like that it became impossible to think of an alternative) then we will see better results at adult hood.

by Guest Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:If Wales had a full compliment, we would still be in the WC weather you agree or not.

Should we get a special Rugby World Cup Moral Victory pot produced, just for you?

by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:55 pm

123456789. wrote:The way forward is not to panic and suggest a radical overhaul of the structure of rugby in our continent, Scotland should be in the semis, Wales arguably should be too (and potentially would be if it weren't for injuries), Ireland were very poor in one game but arguably their four best players were unavailable and that Australia game is not an accurate representation of the standard of English rugby players (although it probably is about the standard of the coaching) and the French problems are well documented.

For me the key is the development of players, the emphasis on size at youth level is stupid. I played in a team of large players at club level and we regularly reached finals and semi-finals each year where we'd come across a better skilled size and lose, in that team four of us could throw a spin pass of both hands, one was an exceptional flanker, two of them were the half-backs and I played at 12, but 7 players could bench 100Kg+ at 16. In the last two years we finished second bottom and bottom of our league. The forwards admittedly were very good at rucking, mauling and scrummaging but in the backs we spent all of our time practising backs moves that we rarely used during the game and rarely worked when we did use them, my best friend played at second row and was picked for county because the county coach saw the size of him as he left the changing room before the game, his rugby was pretty much irrelevant. Secondly whilst I don't buy into the "summer rugby" argument, it seems stupid that every year there's a minimum three month period for players to lose interest in the game, and also the fact that club rugby matches kick off at 11am on a Sunday morning, we need to accept that from the ages of 15/16 kids playing rugby the night before will want to spend saturday night drinking and trying to chat up girls at house parties and with that comes the prospect of a sunday morning trip hungover to play an away match, which is hardly appealing. If we focus on skill and stamina rather than pure size (I've tried my best to write that sentence in a less euphemistic way believe me but as is often the way with such things one I thought of it like that it became impossible to think of an alternative) then we will see better results at adult hood.

Could not have put that better myself. Well said.

by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 4:56 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If Wales had a full compliment, we would still be in the WC weather you agree or not.

Should we get a special Rugby World Cup Moral Victory pot produced, just for you?

Yes please, that would be nice. Very Happy

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:03 pm

MunsterMac wrote:A question for my Irish brethren that I'd be genuinely interested in hearing opinions on:

How do you convince the coaches of Blackrock / PCB / Rockwell / MCB 1st Year teams to move away from 130 years of tradition and start playing a modern, mobile style of rugby this season so that Ireland might reach a RWC semi final in 2027?

Or how do convince the coaches of Garryowen, Cork Con, Ballymena or Clontarf Under 6's, 7's etc to do similar?

If you were dropping a skills coach or having the provincial academies providing services to any of those schools / clubs I don't think any of them would be turning that away. And if those coaches knew that their competition would be getting this investment in skill and they chose not to take advantage of the same opportunity then they wouldn't be remaining as coaches for very long.

I wonder if the issue comes when you hop down to that level that the talented player is put in the hooker/flanker/10 position because that is what is best for the team when maybe we should be nudging some to prop/8/outside centre? That is a trickier thing to do.

We do seem to have props coming through now (after years of very little, though maybe that is more the leinster academy). And you can see a marked increase in size of back line players in the last 3-4 seasons. But pace? Can you train outright pace? Can you improve sprinting technique? Too often against the true elite teams we are running after ankle taps rather than hauling in opponents.

by SecretFly Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:09 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote: But pace? Can you train outright pace? Can you improve sprinting technique? Too often against the true elite teams we are running after ankle taps rather than hauling in opponents.

Yes you can. Yes you can. It's a science. You can't turn everyone into a Bolt but you can make a fit man faster...and much of it can be technique. Felix Jones is a fast man with awful technique. It's clear he could be faster. There are others. A few degrees is all it takes to improve an attacking game and getting by that last basterde in your way! Wink

by MunsterMac Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:22 pm

If you were dropping a skills coach or having the provincial academies providing services to any of those schools / clubs I don't think any of them would be turning that away. And if those coaches knew that their competition would be getting this investment in skill and they chose not to take advantage of the same opportunity then they wouldn't be remaining as coaches for very long.

Yes but what if the coach at that school knew that if he kept doing the things that that school had been doing for decades there would be a good chance of bringing a Schools Cup to the school and all the glory that that entails whereas if he changes approach that potential glory would be seriously jeopardised?

by 123456789. Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:27 pm

From a Scottish perspective I'd like to see Scotland divided into the four traditional regions; and from there smaller groups of clubs and schools within the regions, that way we could run a club season from say september to march, then from march these smaller groups could play a knockout competition in the better weather exposing our best players to a higher standard in superior conditions, and then based on that competitions the academies could select players and the national youth sides could pick teams. That gives a clear route for young players to reach the top and could go someway to avoid the "coach's son" selection whereby club coaches send their sons, sons friends and friend's sons to trials.

We also need four professional teams and squeezing out every ounce of talent will help us achieve this, we have richer unions than the southern Hemisphere so let's work to develop the best talent.

And lastly let's not be afraid of our own rugby styles, England are at their best when they play an intelligent kicking game and bully the opposition off the field, the Welsh have, to be fair, developed their own style of play but I imagine if they'd had even a sprinkling of flair they'd had scored more than one try against Australia and South Africa.

If you want the difference in a microcosm look at the offload from Moody, the third best New Zealand loosehead, and then compare it to Gethin Jenkins, a 100+ cap Lions loosehead's to Tyler Morgan.

by SecretFly Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:30 pm

MunsterMac - The potential glory might be delayed for a season or two. Wink

The fruits might last five ...... I'd take that.

by Hood83 Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote: But pace? Can you train outright pace? Can you improve sprinting technique? Too often against the true elite teams we are running after ankle taps rather than hauling in opponents.

Yes you can. Yes you can. It's a science. You can't turn everyone into a Bolt but you can make a fit man faster...and much of it can be technique. Felix Jones is a fast man with awful technique. It's clear he could be faster. There are others. A few degrees is all it takes to improve an attacking game and getting by that last basterde in your way!

Coaching can help quite a bit I agree, but genetics is massive when it comes to sprinting. England will have a few quick guys but nowhere near the pace of some of the guys who go into football, athletics etc. I still think speed of thought it the big gap.

by BamBam Mon 19 Oct 2015, 5:37 pm

rodders wrote:

You have to player with what you have - where are the Mike Browns, Savea's and Milner-skudders in Irish rugby? There aren't any.

Mrs Brown, is that you? Wink

I love Mike Brown, but thats pushing it!

by **rodders** Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If Wales had a full compliment, we would still be in the WC weather you agree or not.

Should we get a special Rugby World Cup Moral Victory pot produced, just for you?

Yes please, that would be nice.

You'll have to play Ireland, Scotland, England, France and Wales for it... oh wait...

by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:33 am

This is interesting

"The FFR leader said France would have to consider introducing central contracts as New Zealand, Australia, England and other leading nations have.

The contracts make sure players are free for internationals and are not over burdened with club games.

Camou also criticised France's powerful Top 14 championship for not giving more help to young players.

"For six years we have been trying to reform everything, the age groups, the teams," he said.

"But the kids don't play (in Top 14). They never play. But the best training is playing."

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2015/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=11532247

by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:43 am

The horse has already bolted now in France, the club game is FAR to big. They will have to start from scratch all over again, and they will have to endure a famine of sorts before they can start feasting on European silverware again. I cannot see that happening.

by blackcanelion Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:44 am

ebop wrote:This is interesting

"The FFR leader said France would have to consider introducing central contracts as New Zealand, Australia, England and other leading nations have.

The contracts make sure players are free for internationals and are not over burdened with club games.

Camou also criticised France's powerful Top 14 championship for not giving more help to young players.

"For six years we have been trying to reform everything, the age groups, the teams," he said.

"But the kids don't play (in Top 14). They never play. But the best training is playing."

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2015/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=11532247

It's not a North/South thing. It's more a top 14/Premiership vs everyone else issue. France and England need to find a process that works for them. I think England is in a better position than France, despite their early exit, they've improved their overall winning record in the last 4 years. It might be the catalyst French rugby needs. St Andre and some of the players pretty much said the same thing since Saturday.

by Geordie Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:24 am

Oh for gods sake...theres nothing wrong with the Premiership.

The issue is quite clear:

1) Lancaster played a certainly style, but when he got to the World Cup elected to change his style and play a more pack based one...that many of the players arent good at!
Pick your tactics and pick the players to play that and stick to it.

2) Lancaster (or his coaches) did very well for the first two years. But then it stalled and they didn't move their tactics on from that. They didn't adapt.

We need to address Lancasters short comings..and his coaches.

We have different players who HAVE got the skills and ability. We just need to get the coaching set up / tactics right!!!!

by fa0019 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:38 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh for gods sake...theres nothing wrong with the Premiership.

The issue is quite clear:

1) Lancaster played a certainly style, but when he got to the World Cup elected to change his style and play a more pack based one...that many of the players are good at!
Pick your tactics and pick the players to play that and stick to it.

2) Lancaster (or his coaches) did very well for the first two years. But then it stalled and they didn't move their tactics on from that. They didn't adapt.

We need to address Lancasters short comings..and his coaches.

We have different players who HAVE got the skills and ability. We just need to get the coaching set up / tactics right!!!!

So you're not worried that countries like NZ, SA literally have 90% of all players available for their own respected nations and play quality opposition week in week out? They have less teams but strength is more concentrated meaning competition is more intense. England probably have just as many players playing AP rugby but over 12 teams and they haven't had the best records in Europe for what 8 years?
That and clubs are answerable to the union.. in England the union has to plead with clubs.

by Geordie Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:40 am

No I don't worry FA.

We have loads of top class players...and even better coming through.

The English teams will do better in Europe I have no doubt about that.

Too much knee jerk reaction. The bottom line is that our coaches got it badly wrong!!! Simple as that.

by fa0019 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:19 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:No I don't worry FA.

We have loads of top class players...and even better coming through.

The English teams will do better in Europe I have no doubt about that.

Too much knee jerk reaction. The bottom line is that our coaches got it badly wrong!!! Simple as that.

Yet they'll stay for sure. Thats the crazy thing about it. Geech will want Lancaster to stay. The panel consists of 3 middle managers, 1 ex pro and 1 ex scottish coach (albeit part of the Scottish yorkshire contingent). Geech hired him in the first place.

The problem I see for England is that Lancaster will be given another season, another 6N and possible AUS tour. Will again talk of building culture etc... might even get another runners up spot in the 6N.... yet thats only 15 months out from the crucial RWC2019 seedings. That's a lot to do say if he's dropped then.
Better to have a firesale and give a new coach 2 years to get them into the world's top 4 come dec'17... than just over a year.

by Geordie Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:24 am

Well that's a different problem altogether FA...

That's not an issue with the Prem itself. It is producing the players.

The issue is England management...and we ALL agree there is an issue.

by boomeranga Tue 20 Oct 2015, 12:25 pm

I think it's a one off. We will probs never see the reverse but we won't see this again next time even if Europe does nothing. Oz and Arg rose at the right time whereas Ireland inparticular stumbled under weight of injuries.

by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:43 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh for gods sake...theres nothing wrong with the Premiership.

Except that it's missing the fierce Welsh! Or so some of my Welsh friends keep telling us Wink

by dummy_half Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:44 pm

Wales could have beaten SA if they had been a bit more clinical when they had numerical advantage.

Ireland were right in the game at 65 minutes against Argentina, but then fell away and I think their lack of big game experience hindered them as Argentina hit the gas and pulled away at the end.

Scotland were somewhat out-played by Aus but were brilliantly opportunistic and then were obvioulsy unlucky in the last couple of minutes (and were a missed conversion away from a >3 point lead anyway).

I'd be surprised if the nest RWC sees an all SH semi-final line-up.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:46 pm

dummy_half wrote:Wales could have beaten SA Australia if they had been a bit more clinical when they had numerical advantage.

Ireland were right in the game at 65 minutes against Argentina, but then fell away and I think their lack of big game experience hindered them as Argentina hit the gas and pulled away at the end.

Scotland were somewhat out-played by Aus but were brilliantly opportunistic and then were obvioulsy unlucky in the last couple of minutes (and were a missed conversion away from a >3 point lead anyway).

I'd be surprised if the nest RWC sees an all SH semi-final line-up.

by TightHEAD Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:46 pm

dummy_half wrote:Wales could have beaten SA/Aus if they had been a bit more clinical when they had numerical advantage.

I've heard that before. Wink

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