Pakistan vs England 2nd Test

First topic message reminder :

Here's a thread for the 2nd Test which has just got underway

Teams:

Pakistan: Mohammed Hafeez, Shan Masood, Shoaib Malik, Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq*, Asad Shafiq, Sarfraz Ahmed†, Wahab Riaz, Yasir Shah, Zulfiqar Babar, Imran Khan

England: AN Cook*, MM Ali, IR Bell, JE Root, JM Bairstow, BA Stokes, JC Buttler†, AU Rashid, SCJ Broad, MA Wood, JM Anderson

Yikes and yikes again! Just joined in time to see Bairstow go lbw.

I had Pakistan ahead at the end of day two but emphasised it was only by the narrowest of margins - well, it's much more than that now!

What's caused our drastic fall in this session?

Certain players in the England side just are not doing enough with the bat to ensure selection. Ian Bell, Jonny Bairstow and Jos Butler fall into that category. I'd bring Taylor and Hales in for Bell and Buttler with Barstow back behind the stumps as at least he is scoring more runs than Buttler.

As for this test it is now Pakistan's to lose as the first innings lead was always going to be critical and at the moment England will have done well (from this point) to be less than 100 runs behind.

Well, this has gone badly. England so seem woefully adept at playing on fair pitches

To be fair the pitch has begun to offer something this morning and once Root went the out of form batsmen were found wanting.

Wahab's figures this morning are fantastic. I gather he bowled 9 overs on the reel for his 3 wickets and only went for 15. Whenever I've seen him, he's usually looked dangerous but not often economical.

Pakistan in command and you wouldn't fancy England to chase down anything over 220 on this pitch once it starts deteriorating. That means England must bowl Pakistan out for less than a hundred and at present you'd feel that is an impossible ask

England collapse to 242 all out mirroring collapses of their previous tour of UAE. Pakistan now with a golden chance to win the test.

guildfordbat wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
...
On a side note, I'm a bit surprised by the Guardian's suggestion that "Pakistan have taken control of the second Test" and that "England have a mountain to climb". England certainly have a lot of work to do, and you could make a case for Pak being still ahead in the game right now (runs on the board, England batting last, etc.) but there certainly isn't much in it.

Hi MfC - I share your surprise. Unlike Craig [good to have you back, Craig  ], I would currently put Pakistan ahead. However, only by the narrowest of margins. Mainly for the typical sort of reasons you touch on plus a lurking doubt about the inability of others to stay with Root and make a meaningful score themselves (Craig alludes to this as well). However, the Grauniad are well wide of the mark imo in stating ''Pakistan have taken control''. A lot of distance to be covered before that can be claimed upon behalf of either side.

Seven wickets in the opening session covers a lot of distance. The Grauniad were not right last night but Pakistan have now taken control.

Well didn't expect to wake upto this. Awful

Time for Buttler to be dropped for his own sake really. Needs to stop trying to become something he isn't and just go out and bat like jos Buttler.

England are in danger of re-becoming the team they were accused of being a few (unsuccessful) years back where it was alleged to be easier to get into the team than then to be dropped from it.

Obviously an overseas tour limits selection options but, starting from a blank piece of paper, Bell and Buttler wouldn't be anywhere near the team just now. The former is probably a spent force, the latter in desperate need of a break from cricket at this level.

Olly wrote:Time for Buttler to be dropped for his own sake really. Needs to stop trying to become something he isn't and just go out and bat like jos Buttler.

I was just about to post that whilst Buttler's batting has gone to pot, he kept well in the first innings ... and then he drops Masood in Broad's opening over! Not the easiest chance but should have been taken.

I'll hold off selecting my team for the third Test until the second is done but I can understand the vultures circling over the Bs - Buttler, Bell and Bairstow.

Masood gives Buttler another chance, this time off Jimmy, and it's taken!

alfie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:  
Pakistan conversly have all their eggs in the spin basket. .

Wahab riaz and Imran khan are pretty good and fast seamers

2 of them. Think they'll be able to deliver 74 overs like Englands did?

Might not need to if they can get another wicket or two now

...

Despite a few subsequent hold ups, England's middle order and tail ensured Wahab and Imran didn't even need to bowl 33 overs between them.

Good start from the bowlers - really need to bowl them out for circa 150 to have a chance

Bloody Hell ! I come in to find it has all gone haywire...what the devil went wrong ? Seems the "deep" batting lineup failed completely ...super bowling or poor batting ?

No way back from here I'm afraid. Good they fought back with two early wickets but I'd expect Pakistan to put this out of reach over the next couple of days : England are not yet the full package ; and the next day or two just might show who has the inner strength to go forward. There will be changes after this game...

alfie wrote:Bloody Hell !  I come in to find it has all gone haywire...what the devil went wrong ?   Seems the "deep" batting lineup failed completely  ...super bowling or poor batting ?

No way back from here I'm afraid.  Good they fought back with two early wickets but I'd expect Pakistan to put this out of reach over the next couple of days : England are not yet the full package ; and the next day or two just might show who has the inner strength to go forward. There will be changes after this game...

Hi Alfie - that's exactly what I was asking earlier! I joined today after about an hour and a half into the first session just as Bairstow fell. That was 8 down and about it as Wood and Jimmy fell soon afterwards.

From the comments of Ian Ward, Rob Key (like him) and Marcus Tresco in the UK Sky studio, it was the usual combo of good bowling (Wahab especially) together with some poor batting (Rashid seeming brainless as he lofted his second ball up for a dolly with Bairstow needing a partner to stick with him).

As Olly said, a good start by our seamers with two early wickets but our spinners have no runs at all to play with and are again proving leaky as Pakistan move into an even more commanding position.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:Bloody Hell !  I come in to find it has all gone haywire...what the devil went wrong ?   Seems the "deep" batting lineup failed completely  ...super bowling or poor batting ?

No way back from here I'm afraid.  Good they fought back with two early wickets but I'd expect Pakistan to put this out of reach over the next couple of days : England are not yet the full package ; and the next day or two just might show who has the inner strength to go forward. There will be changes after this game...

Hi Alfie - that's exactly what I was asking earlier! I joined today after about an hour and a half into the first session just as Bairstow fell. That was 8 down and about it as Wood and Jimmy fell soon afterwards.

From the comments of Ian Ward, Rob Key (like him) and Marcus Tresco in the UK Sky studio, it was the usual combo of good bowling (Wahab especially) together with some poor batting (Rashid seeming brainless as he lofted his second ball up for a dolly with Bairstow needing a partner to stick with him).

As Olly said, a good start by our seamers with two early wickets but our spinners have no runs at all to play with and are again proving leaky as Pakistan move into an even more commanding position.

It is as others have said. Batting-wise England are relying too heavily on Cook and Root. They are the only batsmen at present that have the temperament and confidence to dig in and play long innings. accumulating steadily as they do so. England need to address this and it isn't just a knee-jerk reaction as this situation has been around for more than just this series. Bell is past his best I think it is fair to say. He is the master of brinkmanship who mans up with one meaningful contribution when calls grow loudly for him to be axed and then he slips back into no contributions - not good enough. Bairstow never fills me with confidence or belief that he is ever really in and going to make a big contribution. Today was a big opportunity and he never took it but his saviour may come in the form of (or lack of it) Jos Buttler. Buttler is just not scoring at all at the moment and his wicket-keeping is not high enough quality to keep him in the side for me so slot Bairstow in there as at least he is scoring slightly more with the bat. Bring in Taylor and Hales for Bell and Buttler as surely they cannot do any worse?

Thanks guildford...oh dear that was at the low end of hopes/expectations - i'd have put money on a minimum of 330. Suppose there was always a risk that a few quick wickets might fall , but honestly : Pakistan were fielding for four plus hours yesterday : you'd have thought it was a classic day to bat time and cash in later... Of course I've not seen the dismissals - maybe they just aren't good enough ?

Again the England (pace) bowlers have done well. Spinners ? Well I guess they are the best available... but I do wonder if Cook might be better advised to just bowl his quicks and say OK you two can have a go when all hope has gone ... (Joking. More or less)

Cannot see anything other than a Pakistan win from here I'd suggest Craig should offer a "road map" of a lead of 320 tonight and declaration lunch tomorrow with 400 plus on... would need a cook triple to give any hope. England must aim for four or five cheap wickets tonight to keep the lead down to 300 or so...

Good luck.

Oh hi Craig ...don't mean to steal your job

I'll address changes after this is over. But fair to say England have a few batting problems (and this is not a call for you-know-who to be invited back - his time has passed too) : They really do need at least one more really solid batsman in his spot. Starting to look as though Bell just doesn't have it anymore. Sadly I don't have any instant solutions - but they may need to be searching...

Not sure I fully follow this comment just posted on cricinfo but I don't think our Tiger will like it:
''Adil Rashid is just another Jade Dernbach for England.''

Pakistan's road map from here will be to bat on until around mid-afternoon tomorrow with a lead somewhere around 450. They'd look to have bowled England out by tea on the last day.

England's road map from here is far less improbable. Something like bowling Pakistan out for 150 to 200 leaving them with between 300 and 350 to get for the win. I really can't see that happening though. Even if they did manage to bowl Pakistan out rapidly I'd doubt this England side making 200 especially if either Cook or Root fail to score substantially.

[quote="guildfordbat"]Not sure I fully follow this comment just posted on cricinfo but I don't think our Tiger will like it:
''Adil Rashid is just another Jade Dernbach for England.''[/quote}

Bit harsh. But the reservation I - and you , I think , guildford , have about him is this : is he good enough to carry around just for the hope of a second innings matchwinning spell , at the cost of a lot of first innings easy runs ...and perhaps not a lot besides ?
To be honest I'm not yet sure. Jury still out , etc. Waiting to see what happens in Sharjah ...cannot see him having a significant effect here now.

Alfie - you voice my concerns about Rashid correctly and well.

I am a little curious as to why in this innings Anderson has bowled 7 overs for 1/4 while Rashid has already sent down nine for 30 ?

May be method in it ; but I'm left wondering if development isn't taking over from trying to win a Test Match...

alfie wrote:I am a little curious as to why in this innings Anderson has bowled 7 overs for 1/4 while Rashid has already sent down nine for 30 ?

May be method in it ; but I'm left wondering if development isn't taking over from trying to win a Test Match...

Alfie - again share your reservations. Guess Cook feels that if we are to somehow pull this one out of the fire, then someone will have to do something special and that of any bowler who can be kept on for a long spell to try and achieve that, his best bet is Rashid. All pretty desperate and, given my views on Rashid, not surprising that I hold out no hope for it working - doubt that Cook does either. Jimmy has bowled well in this match (on the money in the first innings with little luck) but probably can only do 4 or 5 over spells in these conditions - contrast with Wahab's spell today though.

Anyway, Rashid off now. 0/43 off 12 - hmmm.

That all said and assuming we do lose this Test, it's been the England batting today that has really cost us.

I sense interest in this is waning...

England seamers still battling away. Run rate under control - but wickets aren't coming. Pakistan in no particular hurry - why should they ? Plenty of time...it doesn't rain much here , I'm told

I know I should get some sleep and watch the Rugby later - but something keeps me tuned in...Cricket sometimes surprises. Can't somehow see this one changing path though.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:I am a little curious as to why in this innings Anderson has bowled 7 overs for 1/4 while Rashid has already sent down nine for 30 ?

May be method in it ; but I'm left wondering if development isn't taking over from trying to win a Test Match...

Alfie - again share your reservations. Guess Cook feels that if we are to somehow pull this one out of the fire, then someone will have to do something special and that of any bowler who can be kept on for a long spell to try and achieve that, his best bet is Rashid. All pretty desperate and, given my views on Rashid, not surprising that I hold out no hope for it working - doubt that Cook does either. Jimmy has bowled well in this match (on the money in the first innings with little luck) but probably can only do 4 or 5 over spells in these conditions - contrast with Wahab's spell today though.

Anyway, Rashid off now. 0/43 off 12 - hmmm.

That all said and assuming we do lose this Test, it's been the England batting today that has really cost us.

Right about the batting ! Again ; I didn't see it ; but surely Stokes Buttler and Rashid making four between them against an old ball and bowlers who have been baking for more than four hours the day before just isn't acceptable ? You can have a go at the top order for 14/2 ; but the Pakistani opening pair did bowl well. Overall , I am still very surprised ; when Cook , Root , and even Bairstow were batting yesterday I was thinking "400 pitch".

50 each for the two Pakistani vets : looking at the value they bring is why I'd like Bell at five. But leave that for another day...

Misbah edges between keeper and first slip off a furious Stokes. A confident keeper would have gone for and got that.

The hardworking Stokes induces an edge : but Buttler doesn't move and it passes twixt him and slip...

I am not at all sure that Buttler's keeping is so good as to justify him keeping out a batsman while Bairstow is available to take the gloves. Please note I still believe he is a player of the future ...just don't think he merits a place right now on recent form. If England want to win - or even draw - in UAE , they can't afford passengers.

guildfordbat wrote:Wahab's figures this morning are fantastic. I gather he bowled 9 overs on the reel for his 3 wickets and only went for 15. Whenever I've seen him, he's usually looked dangerous but not often economical.

Just paged back and saw this. I really rate Wahab , so not too shocked. Doesn't allow England's poor batting off the hook though ! Perhaps it shows how well Cook and Root played yesterday ?

This test is over as a contest now and thoughts should be turning to how England address their on-going mid-order batting problem.

Pakistan tightening their grip as the day wears on...the ageless Misbah just rolling along...

Declare lunch tomorrow ?

CaledonianCraig wrote:This test is over as a contest now and thoughts should be turning to how England address their on-going mid-order batting problem.

Mid order ? What about the top order ? !

Misbah is a legend. Probably the best Pakistani captain ever.

Great day for Pakistan.

Played us off the park...

England won't sleep well. But I will ...tough week. Cheers all.

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Wahab's figures this morning are fantastic. I gather he bowled 9 overs on the reel for his 3 wickets and only went for 15. Whenever I've seen him, he's usually looked dangerous but not often economical.

Just paged back and saw this.  I really rate Wahab , so not too shocked.  Doesn't allow England's poor batting off the hook though !  Perhaps it shows how well Cook and Root played yesterday ?

I really like Wahab as well but he's often gone for a few when I've watched him. Anyway, I didn't see his spell today but the Sky guys were very impressed.

Pakistan end the day massively on top. Incredibly disappointing for England.

Despite my well voiced doubts, we still need to stand by Rashid for at least a little longer having made the decision to try him. However, his figures so far of 0/163, 5/64, 1/84 and 0/70 do suggest feast or famine. No surprise that I like my meals to be more regular.

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:This test is over as a contest now and thoughts should be turning to how England address their on-going mid-order batting problem.

Mid order ?  What about the top order ? !

Yes well you get my gist. The only batsmen doing enough to justify their place in the side at the moment are Cook and Root. Bell has been srviving on one good knock per series for too long, Buttler hasn't scored meaningfully for just as long and Bairstow has never appeared comfortable at test level.

KP_fan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:  
Pakistan conversly have all their eggs in the spin basket. .

Wahab riaz and Imran khan are pretty good and fast seamers

as I said...never under estimate Pak pacers.
they have an assembly line of mercurial bowlers......especialyl ones who can generate reverse swing on unhelpful pitches.....Wahab especially so.

Don't be too critical of Eng....except that they need one more specialist batsman in place of one of the bowlers.
This is how the script was meant to read in T1.......until super human effort from Cook turned it into a near historic win.

what's left in this test.....Pak will bat 2 or max 3 more hours and set a 500 run chase....
Super men knocks from Cook and Root can eek out a highly unlikely draw.......rest just don't have the form or calibre to score any more than 30s to 60s at best.
also at best Eng can hope to win a toss and bat first in T3

PS* Misbah running 42nd year.......would earn a very well deserved hundred in each innings if he gets there

Think it was VTR who expanded on my point in the last test by saying outside of Cook and Root, England is choc a blocked with guys capable of playing the shot of the day, but rarely innings of substance.

Anyway I'm glad to see my prediction that England would collapse at the mere sight of a chubby leg spinner proved basically spot on

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:This test is over as a contest now and thoughts should be turning to how England address their on-going mid-order batting problem.

Mid order ?  What about the top order ? !

Yes well you get my gist. The only batsmen doing enough to justify their place in the side at the moment are Cook and Root. Bell has been srviving on one good knock per series for too long, Buttler hasn't scored meaningfully for just as long and Bairstow has never appeared comfortable at test level.

It's concerning that while doubts remain and perhaps grow over Bairstow, his place in the side seems more secure due only to the greater failings of Buttler.

If this is more than a temporary blip in form for Buttler, England will probably need to look further than Bairstow as I don't believe he's the long term answer behind the stumps.

guildfordbat wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:This test is over as a contest now and thoughts should be turning to how England address their on-going mid-order batting problem.

Mid order ?  What about the top order ? !

Yes well you get my gist. The only batsmen doing enough to justify their place in the side at the moment are Cook and Root. Bell has been srviving on one good knock per series for too long, Buttler hasn't scored meaningfully for just as long and Bairstow has never appeared comfortable at test level.

It's concerning that while doubts remain and perhaps grow over Bairstow, his place in the side seems more secure due only to the greater failings of Buttler.

If this is more than a temporary blip in form for Buttler, England will probably need to look further than Bairstow as I don't believe he's the long term answer behind the stumps.

I would agree.

The thing is the England selectors are very set in their ways and loathe making team changes even if a player is in stinking form unless it is forced upon them. I can see them sticking with Buttler and hope that Cook and Root can paper over the yawning chasms elsewhere in the batting line-up rather than rock the boat and axeing players.

Yep raf, was me with that observation. I think on paper its a long batting line up, but is short on quality and form. Moeen was a strength at 8 but has been forced to open because England refuse to pick Compton

Not very good, needed to win the last match where one of the two good players went big!

When you think about it - this is like a big case of deja vu. The tour of the West Indies saw players struggle badly such as Trott and the selectors refused to make changes even though many felt Adam Lyth should have been given that series to prove himself. Instead they waited and Lyth got thrown in at the deep end and sunk. Now we have the same issues happening again as talk is that Ali is not expected to open V South Africa with Hales being tipped for that role so here we have another opener being chucked in at the deep end instead of getting him in....NOW. Likewise, Taylor is waiting in the wings and scoring well in ODI's but the selectors stick with Bell who is quite clearly a shell of the player he was and past his sell by date.

The reason I'd prefer to keep selection questions to end of match is that a player might rather make fools of us with a second innings performance.  But in general terms I can't disagree with the concerns expressed by others above , re the England batting.
Raf and VTR are certainly spot on about the lack of proven Test Match reliability about the team , after Cook and Root.(Bell of course was one we could count in that category ; but he just hasn't done enough for a long time now to belong there)
Trouble is there may not be a great deal that can be done about it in the short term. Really good players don't grow on trees ; and frankly only Root in the last few years has come in , looked the part immediately , and gone on to perform - with only the briefest of bad patches when moved to the top of the order.  Ballance was looking good for a while - and may well come again ; but perhaps not immediately.
Moeen still doesn't strike me as an ideal opener - but the peculiar conditions of the UAE have combined with the failure of Lyth and fairly ordinary form of Hales to almost force England to play him there.  To be honest I can't see that changing for the third match...despite KP_f and his insistence that England have too many bowlers I reckon they need four seamers while neither spinner can be remotely trusted to impose any measure of control.
Stokes at six is fine with me. He will have his failures ; but when he comes off he lights up the match. And he is there in any case for his bowling.  So it is the B's that are the big Question Mark.

To continue...
I wonder if Bell has the second innings to save his career ? England do stay loyal to their established players (not that this is always a bad thing) ; but he must be testing patience , and a heavy defeat might force their hand. Taylor you'd think must come in , and bat at three. So then it is down to choosing two of Bell Bairstow or Buttler at 5 and 7 (or 6 if you want to shuffle). I would be surprised to see two top order changes so doubt Hales will feature now.
I do agree with Craig that Bairstow may not be a long term keeper ; and indeed moving him in and out of that position may not really be altogether fair to him either ; but winning the next match is paramount right now , so if that means he takes the gloves in Sharjah , so be it. Buttler may yet play an innings in the second knock here - but he seems down on confidence so I will be a little surprised if he does. At the same time I have more regard for Bairstow's ability than many on here : I remember his efforts against a strong SA attack back in 2012 ; and I have a feeling he has been a little unlucky with being popped in and out of the team for one reason or another without ever getting a sustained run ...if Bell is indeed on the way out then I think he probably represents the most likely number five on the immediate radar , and is worth persevering with at least for the tour of SA.
Next to certain that Hales will be tried as opener in SA , as England won't be picking two spinners. This in itself will serve to settle the order a little...but of course we have no guarantee he will fare any better than the procession of post-Strauss candidates who have failed to impress as partner for Cook.

Summary : bit like the spin bowling issue really ; you can only do what you can with what you've got...

I agree Alfie that Bairstow isn't a dead loss. He was well set yesterday but saw 4 (or 5) wickets fall lamely at the other end in about an hour. That's going to put you off and I don't blame him for getting out.

Outside of root and cook he was the only player to contribute anything to the innings

Problem with Bairstow is that he's not just not scoring runs, he's failing the "eye test" as well. Basically as soon as he got in, I figured Shah would snare him. He just seemed like he wasn't going to win that battle. Credit to him, he fought through to a 40s which looks decent in the shower of sh.it he batted with, but he just looks like he isn't of the level. Sometimes the eye test is more indicative than just raw stats.

I agree with Raf re: Jonny B - no doubt he's got talent, but for me in all his appearances he's never looked comfortable at this level.

I personally think not bringing ballance was a mistake - sure he had a rough summer but this is a guy who has numerous test hundreds, and despite the horror summer he still averages 47.73! Maybe he's not a 3, but certainly he could play 5 imo, with Taylor coming into 3.

Ballance is a good shout. Actually looked the part in Tests but was dropped in the Ashes when he was doing nothing more wrong than Bell or Lyth who played the whole series

I think there is a place for a Bairstow type player, but not with Stokes and Buttler in the same order