Pakistan vs England 2nd Test

First topic message reminder :

Here's a thread for the 2nd Test which has just got underway

Teams:

Pakistan: Mohammed Hafeez, Shan Masood, Shoaib Malik, Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq*, Asad Shafiq, Sarfraz Ahmed†, Wahab Riaz, Yasir Shah, Zulfiqar Babar, Imran Khan

England: AN Cook*, MM Ali, IR Bell, JE Root, JM Bairstow, BA Stokes, JC Buttler†, AU Rashid, SCJ Broad, MA Wood, JM Anderson

This is why Tests far outweigh limited overs cricket. It has this extra dynamic in it - a team battling for a draw against a team desperate to force the win. Tension, nerves and bottle tested - you never get situations like this in limited overs cricket.

It really is a sign of where both England as a whole , and several of their players individually , are at present.
ie Plenty of ability , plenty of the right attitude and spirit ...just not quite the fully developed article.
Have patience : when this lot gel together they're going to be a formidable outfit. Really only Bell you'd think is near the end , of the older players : I reckon Jimmy has a year or two yet in the tank now he's not being run around in ODIs.
Still issues of course : opener , spinners ...but the future looks bright.

129 overs and still hanging in...

Getting very tense now. Epic stand this between Rashid and Wood. Can they see the remaining 12 overs out and write themselves alongside the likes of Collingwood, Swann, Onions, Hoggard and Parnesar who, in recent times, rescued a draw from certain defeat?

Me and my gob. So it is to be like a Scottish football defeat - gutsy failure.

As others have alluded to I would still fancy England to level the series in the final test. I still feel the teams needs tweaking - Bairstow for Buttler and Hales for Bell.

CaledonianCraig wrote:As others have alluded to I would still fancy England to level the series in the final test. I still feel the teams needs tweaking - Bairstow for Buttler and Hales for Bell.

Do you mean Taylor for Bell? Good player of spin whereas Hales is a very poor player of spin

I think this is over now, can't see Jimmy hanging in there, nor should he be expected to really

Jeez yes of course it was. What was I thinking. Cheers VTR.

CaledonianCraig wrote:This is why Tests far outweigh limited overs cricket. It has this extra dynamic in it - a team battling for a draw against a team desperate to force the win. Tension, nerves and bottle tested - you never get situations like this in limited overs cricket.

Tense for the players...not really tense for us watching as we have all known for ages that all good things must come to an end

Just as I started to hope - and get a little anxious - of course Wood got out...

Back to waiting for the inevitable now , nice and relaxed...

No worries!

I suppose this Rashid innings complicates things for the selectors. We now seem to have two spinners who can be effective with the bat but not great with the ball most of the time. Selection for the final Test will be interesting!

Well Alfie, certainly not a dynamic that you can get in limited overs cricket. No way.

Shaffiq drops Anderson.

Fine achievement to reach the last seven overs anyway...

Can't it get dark a bit quicker ?

No finger nails left.

Come on Jimmy/Rashid!

Lead us home #rashenius

VTR wrote:No worries!

I suppose this Rashid innings complicates things for the selectors. We now seem to have two spinners who can be effective with the bat but not great with the ball most of the time. Selection for the final Test will be interesting!

Pretty sure that both will play in the final test. The better performer there may seal their spot for the single spinner spot in the side V South Africa.

At present Ali just edges it as offers more control.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well Alfie, certainly not a dynamic that you can get in limited overs cricket. No way.

Shaffiq drops Anderson.

Absolutely , Craig.

I don't despise the limited overs stuff ; but I regard it as more entertainment - light and fluffy.

Tests are well named.

And this one ends as Rashid - strangely - plays a drive and finds the cover fielder ...

And there is the end - its a deserved defeat, a shame that we didn't get the deserved win in the first test but 1-0 down it is

Olly wrote:Lead us home #rashenius

Oh Adil

A sad way for Rashid to go. A bit of a rash shot and with 6.3 overs left Pakistan seal the win and England pay for a morning of madness on the third day.

The church of Shah erects another pillar

Poor Rashid : played so well , and yet he'll be kicking himself for not just dead batting that away.

Well played Pakistan They lead 1-0 ; but in a sense I reckon honours in this series are about even ...Pakistan have won both tosses ; but narrowly escaped defeat in one match and prevailed with only a few overs to go in this one.

Won't make any difference unless England can come back and win in Sharjah ; but that certainly doesn't seem improbable on what we've seen so far.

Glad to see Wahab gets the MoTM

Earned it with his effort on that fairly benign surface. Good choice .

So close! Well played England, especially the lower order.
England's selection policy is akin to playing with one hand tied behind their back.

Well done Adil Rashid and England. Rashid came close to doing something really special in his first 2 tests, first with the ball and then with the bat. Hope they would stick with him and give him a proper run in the side.
And well done Yasir Shah and Wahab Riaz, 2 players in the Pakistan side who are quickly becoming part of the list of cricketers whom I look forward to being in action........

I see Beefy on Sky was saying exactly what I said a few days ago. England making the same selection mistakes they made in the West Indies tour.

Easy to bag the selectors (heck , I'd have picked Taylor myself) but I'm not sure any combination of the available players would necessarily have done any better.
Where is the parallel with the WI tour though ? THey have had six bowlers including the only two spinners on hand - the only issue is using Ali as opener : which doesn't look like a long term plan ; but does enable them to play that versatile attack.
I'd be more critical if there was a serious alternative - but does anyone think Hales is the ideal man to open the innings in UAE ? Even if he was in top form - which he hasnt been lately. On balance I am not going to complain about the batting selections - really only one of three innings in which the team has "failed" with the bat.

Trying Trott in West Indies was not a great idea ; but when Lyth did come in he hardly suggested hed have been a raging success had he been chosen instead. Easy for critics to throw rotten fruit , since their alternatives obviously aren't tried , except in theory...or later. Doesn't mean they are always right.

msp83 wrote:Well done Adil Rashid and England. Rashid came close to doing something really special in his first 2 tests, first with the ball and then with the bat. Hope they would stick with him and give him a proper run in the side.
And well done Yasir Shah and Wahab Riaz, 2 players in the Pakistan side who are quickly becoming part of the list of cricketers whom I look forward to being in action........

Yes pleased for Rashid. Fine effort - though that rush of blood will haunt him for a while.

Proper run in the side might not be easy to manage though , at least in the short term...I doubt England can carry two spinners in SA - especially two rather given to conceding fast runs - so he's probably battling it out with Moeen for one spot.
This innings won't hurt his chances. But I suspect Moeen remains in front of him for now.

The parallel was thus. In the West Indies it was crying out for fresh blood to be tried out as an opener rather than throwing him into a massive series and expecting him to succeed - this was Lyth not played in favour of past it Trotton. In this series they have done it again with the openers. Ali was never going to be a long term option as opener but instead of blooding Hales (who by all accounts will start V South Africa) they will leave it and chuck him in at the deep end in another massive series. They did the same by not giving Wood experience and Rashid but plodding along with the old guard in the West Indies.

I completely disagree with Botham. In the strongest terms. Test cricket isn't one day cricket. In ODI you can blood players in because there's a final goal - the world cup. In Tests, you've got to pick the best available team to win you the match/series. To say someone needed to be "blooded in" in preparation for another series implies that the team has no qualms with losing/not being as competitive in the current series. England made the decision to go with four pace bowlers and two spinners, as well as eight batsman. At various points, the various parts of the tactic has seemed justified. Yesterday, the eighth batsman nearly dug them out of a hole. In the first test the spinners nearly inched them to an unlikely victory. And of course the pace bowlers have not been the ones bleeding you dry.

Yes its all hindsight from Botham as usual. England went with the same team that for all intents and purposes won that First Test.

Now we have had two Tests its fair to question whether some changes could be made, but to suggest they should have been in place from the first test is a load of rubbish

Also Lyth was not thrown into a massive series. He debuted in the 2 Tests vs NZ at home. Having seen him in The Ashes, he could have been in the team for 10 years and not done any better - he simply wasn't up to opening the batting at Test level

As a Yorkshire fan it pains me to agree with the above. Lyth has always been suspect outside off stump. He tightened up in county cricket over the last few years but international class bowlers will always expose any weakness. I don't think Hales is up to much either in the longer form. I think Lyth is probably the better of the 2, but I suppose he deserves his opportunity like everyone else. But then again, so should Ali at the top of the order.

One final point, if you share the same opinions as Ian Beefy Botham on cricket, I wouldn't go bleating about it.

I broadly agree with the last three posts. In particular , I think raf has summarized my chief issue with what I take to be the Botham view (haven't seen the actual comments) : this business of always making selections with an eye to the next series is rubbish. Any Test Series is an event in itself ; and the first priority must be to pick the best team to win it.

Planning for the future comes into consideration of course. But it is - or should be - a secondary matter. Useful for resolving close judgements - so that you might pick a Lyth rather than a Compton as the next opener...even if it doesn't eventually work out

And of course the obvious argument in favour of the team that has been picked is that they were just ten minutes playable light away from winning the first Test despite losing an important toss. Pakistan are a tough opponent in these conditions anyway.
But I guess Botham's job these days is to complain whatever is done - sort of taking over the Boycott role as the Official Curmudgeon

VTR wrote:Also Lyth was not thrown into a massive series. He debuted in the 2 Tests vs NZ at home. Having seen him in The Ashes, he could have been in the team for 10 years and not done any better - he simply wasn't up to opening the batting at Test level

The point is he played two tests before the Ashes instead of five if he had played in the Windies. Those extra three tests could have been the bedding in and confidence boosting start that may have made things so much more different. By sticking with tried, tested and frequently flopped and burnt out Trott (which was a fail anyway) acheived nothing. Now if Lyth had flopped in the West Indies it may have shown the selectors (prior to the Ashes) that he wasn't the man and therefore they could even have tried out another opener V New Zealand. But no - England are still with opener issues because of their dithering which has now affected the last four series.

The point is here that England can't afford to cheese themselves just because they won the Ashes. If they pertain to get back to No.1 there are still definite issues in the side that need addressing. The issues they have are akin to needed medical attention or else they will get worse and the team will go nowhere.

The issues are Bell woefully out of form but still plodding on in the team, Buttler not performing with the bat as wicket-keeper and opener issues as it is painfully obvious that Ali isn't the man for the job. Beefy is spot on pointing all those out and voicing his concerns.

Those being the issues then England have to act. Bell's form is not going to alter as it has followed this pattern for at least a year now. Bring Taylor in and see if he can transfer his decent ODI form to test cricket. Buttler's batting is not up to it at present and his wicket-keeping isn't spectacular enough to scream - play me. Bairstow isn't any better behind the stumps but at least his batting is in a better vein of form though still nothing to scream about. Ali opening is never going to work - the only option in the current squad is Hales and if England have no faith or intention of playing him then why bring him along especially since it has been widely accepted that this Ali experiment as opener would never stretch into the South Africa series.

If I were chief selector the side I'd be pushing to put out in Sharjah would be:-

Cook
Hales
Taylor
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Ali
Rashid
Broad
Wood
Anderson

If I know the selectors then the side they will put out will be:-

Cook
Ali
Bell
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Rashid
Wood
Anderson

Leave out the KP saga, the other major personality based mistake the England management made was v Nick Compton. At the time of his dropping it seemed rather tough call, and some of us thought moving Root up the order wasn't a very smart move, and it was proved absolutely right. They didn't want to go back to Compton after the Ashes debacle and tried out a few others at the top along with Cook but none of them produced anything substantive output, and Compton seemed the best of the lot who were tried out. And even after Lyth failed, and even after Compton had that meeting with the coach, they still didn't pick him even in the squad as a reserve player. I am not against Ali being tried out at the top. But it shouldn't be a 3 game strategy, but Ali should be told to play his natural game, he's never going to be England's next boycott, that's not his game, and he's not technically skilled enough to play that sort of game even on flattish pitches. Give him a free run, he might overcome his technical issue and evolve into a half-decent opener. Hales doesn't seem to be the answer, the way he played in recent ODIs, that simply was dreadful. Of course ODIs and tests have their fair share of differences, but Hales didn't look secure even in ODIs, it will be a surprise if he does so in tests.
Either stick with Ali for some time, or bring back Compton. Have a feeling the England management isn't going to do neither though........

msp83 wrote:Leave out the KP saga, the other major personality based mistake the England management made was v Nick Compton. At the time of his dropping it seemed  rather tough call, and some of us thought moving Root up the order wasn't a very smart move, and it was proved absolutely right. They didn't want to go back to Compton after the Ashes debacle and tried out a few others at the top along with Cook but none of them produced anything substantive output, and Compton seemed the best of the lot who were tried out. And even after Lyth failed, and even after Compton had that meeting with the coach, they still didn't pick him even  in the squad as a reserve player. I am not against Ali being tried out at the top. But it shouldn't be a 3 game strategy, but Ali should be told to play his natural game, he's never going to be England's next boycott, that's not his game, and he's not technically skilled enough to play that sort of game even on flattish pitches. Give him a free run, he might overcome his technical issue and evolve into a half-decent opener. Hales doesn't seem to be the answer, the way he played in recent ODIs, that simply was dreadful. Of course ODIs and tests have their fair share of differences, but Hales didn't look secure even in ODIs, it will be a surprise if he does so in tests.
Either stick with Ali for some time, or bring back Compton. Have a feeling the England management isn't going to do neither though........

I'd agree with much of that. As I recall it Compton's real problem (in the supporters eyes) was his painfully slow scoring rate. He could stick around but most of the time he was seen as bogging the scoring rate down. As for Hales I do tend to agree he probably is not the answer but neither is Ali and playing Ali as an opener begins to encroach on his bowling as Cook was not wanting to overbowl him knowing he was to open the innings. Not what England need or want.

I think there's a bit of revisionism going on here tbh. Compton did have a problem with slow scoring, however his main problem was that he didn't even average 32 and by the end of the home series against NZ looked like he wasn't able to hit it off the square. As far as I recall, the vast majority were calling for Root, an opener for the Yorkies, to go up the order and try his hand there as he was in good touch and an opener by trade too. He wasn't viewed as a middle order specialist then. It looks clearly the wrong decision now, but there's a bit of outcome bias going on to suggest it was completely the wrong decision at the time.

As for Lyth, I'm not sure how the WI series would have helped him really. He got a hundred against a good (to very good) NZ attack, so I'm not sure how any runs vs the WI would have helped him any more. I think he just isn't good enough for Test cricket, unfortunately. It happens.

As for the current situation, Moeen can't really open and be the chief spin bowler. Especially in the UAE. It's just too much to ask, given he is still crafting his art as a spin bowler. So, you have three options;

1) Hales - the coming man all summer, lots of CC runs at the start of the year but had a rancid ODI series vs Aus and is in poor touch.

2) Bell - Not convinced about Bell opening. Think his time is coming to an end, doubt sticking him up there helps.

3) Taylor - Has opened for the Lions. The previous regime clearly thought he has top order attributes, but if you are bringing him in for his aptitude against spin then it seems a bit self defeating to open with him.

Think I'd bring in Hales and Taylor for Bell and Buttler, but it sounds like Taylor will play over Buttler. Bayliss did make noises that he had planned to play three spinners at Sharjah all series, but this sounds like a bit of a bluff and Eng's four seamers haven't gone badly. Pretty well actually.

JDizzle wrote:
As for Lyth, I'm not sure how the WI series would have helped him really. He got a hundred against a good (to very good) NZ attack, so I'm not sure how any runs vs the WI would have helped him any more. I think he just isn't good enough for Test cricket, unfortunately. It happens.

Well it may have given the selectors more of an insight to his credentials. A series of low scores and they could have begun scouring the CC scene for other alternatives at the beginning of this summer and once his poor form (had it continued) into the Ashes Series they could have made the change earlier and perhaps found a viable opener in time for this series instead of them trying to improvise one in the shape of Ali.

Apart from that I agree with everything else you say.

Bring in Taylor for Buttler and go from there. No need for radical changes, we've competed well so far.

If guys like bell fail again change in south Africa at the start of a fresh series

Olly wrote:Bring in Taylor for Buttler and go from there. No need for radical changes, we've competed well so far.

If guys like bell fail again change in south Africa at the start of a fresh series

Think that makes sense. Got to try and win this match first - and Buttler is really the only member of the XI who hasn't done anything in the two matches. And perhaps more to the point he seems to be - understandably - down on confidence. Which I think is a big part of his game.

SA will be another matter. Worry about it after this is over.

Agree Taylor for Buttler is the likely change. Anyone who wants Hales in to open in the UAE wants their head checking. I think he is there for experience of touring/being around the set up and was never likely to play - there is value in that

Other possible change might be Wood for Plunkett, which would be a decision based on fitness rather than form

And Craig seriously needs to move on from the Lyth not playing in the Windies thing!

VTR wrote:

And Craig seriously needs to move on from the Lyth not playing in the Windies thing!

Move on? Perhaps. However, that is not changing the fact a big selection error was made and are still being made now in similar fashion.

VTR wrote:

Other possible change might be Wood for Plunkett, which would be a decision based on fitness rather than form

No I disagree. You play your best side and Wood has arguably been the most impressive seamer on the tour. Not the time to be leaving him out and I am sure he wants to play in the Third Test. The tweaking and restructuring of the team needs doing to the batting not the bowling.

I'd prefer Wood in the team but we are continually told he is made of glass so can't play too many back to back games. I think the 3 Tests span little over 3 weeks so it will be interesting to see if he's up to it. I hope so as I would not back Plunkett to take many wickets

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:  
Pakistan conversly have all their eggs in the spin basket. .

Wahab riaz and Imran khan are pretty good and fast seamers

2 of them. Think they'll be able to deliver 74 overs like Englands did?

Might not need to if they can get another wicket or two now

Good bowling (and catching) to see England two down for next to nothing : a lot on the key pair of Cook and Root now.

Disappointing from Bell.  Becoming a very dodgy starter.  I'd certainly prefer him at five : but I guess that only happens if Taylor wins a spot.

Well, at least that should guarantee Bell 40 odd second dig. The requisite amount to keep him in the side whilst doing insufficient to silence his critics.

Just back from deepest Dorset. A different world there but see nothing changes here!

alfie wrote:Glad to see Wahab gets the MoTM

Earned it with his effort on that fairly benign surface.  Good choice .

Yep, not the best stats but the biggest impact. So much was decided on that third morning. A good call.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:Glad to see Wahab gets the MoTM

Earned it with his effort on that fairly benign surface.  Good choice .

Yep, not the best stats but the biggest impact. So much was decided on that third morning. A good call.

Definitely.

That spell of his won the test for Pakistan.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I see Beefy on Sky was saying exactly what I said a few days ago. England making the same selection mistakes they made in the West Indies tour.

Craig - imho you're a fine contributor who will only suffer from bringing Botham into your corner. You don't need or want him to back up any arguments. Seriously. You may bang on about Trott and Lyth but you stick by your guns . Botham blows with the wind. He also ignores basic numbers. Too often, if you listen to his choice of players, he'll have a dozen in the team. And as for where the fielders should be - at least thirteen! An entertaining player full of excitement but a very ordinary pundit with no credibility.

Cheers gb.

Whatever Beefy is or isn't he is whistling from the same hymn sheet in this case as me. Changes need to be made. Now in hindsight as the openers slot goes I don't think Hales is now the bloke for the job but looks like he'll be in for the South Africa series. Bell has been a dead man walking for well over a year now and Taylor deserves a chance and Buttler is at rock bottom form-wise and that needs addressing. We shall see what happens.

msp83 wrote:Well done Adil Rashid and England. Rashid came close to doing something really special in his first 2 tests, first with the ball and then with the bat. Hope they would stick with him and give him a proper run in the side.
And well done Yasir Shah and Wahab Riaz, 2 players in the Pakistan side who are quickly becoming part of the list of cricketers whom I look forward to being in action........

I wonder if I've stumbled on something for Adil Rashid. Just make sure I don't watch!

Saw him bowl a lot in the first innings but not a ball of the second of the first Test. Saw him bat (all two balls) in his first innings but not at all in his second knock of the second Test. Guess you can all remember the very different results! I did say the other week that it seemed to be feast or famine with him.

More seriously, credit to the young guy for coming back well in both Tests. That has to say something positive about his current ability, further potential and particularly character (Tiger - might be an idea for you to print that off now before I edit it! ) However - that word just had to come - I'm still not convinced he's a good fit with Moeen Ali. Both leak too many runs and are still in the relatively early stages of learning their own spinning game.

Ali wins over Rashid for me. In particular, Rashid seems on the slow / too slow side for Test bowling - a view supported by a few professional pundits I don't automatically rubbish. Also, whilst not fully convinced by Ali, I can't ignore his very impressive strike rate. That all said, I've missed two halves of two Tests so what can I tell?!