Pakistan vs England 2nd Test

First topic message reminder :

Here's a thread for the 2nd Test which has just got underway

Teams:

Pakistan: Mohammed Hafeez, Shan Masood, Shoaib Malik, Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq*, Asad Shafiq, Sarfraz Ahmed†, Wahab Riaz, Yasir Shah, Zulfiqar Babar, Imran Khan

England: AN Cook*, MM Ali, IR Bell, JE Root, JM Bairstow, BA Stokes, JC Buttler†, AU Rashid, SCJ Broad, MA Wood, JM Anderson

Not quite the start we were after!

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:  
Pakistan conversly have all their eggs in the spin basket. .

Wahab riaz and Imran khan are pretty good and fast seamers

2 of them. Think they'll be able to deliver 74 overs like Englands did?

Might not need to if they can get another wicket or two now

Good bowling (and catching) to see England two down for next to nothing : a lot on the key pair of Cook and Root now.

Disappointing from Bell. Becoming a very dodgy starter. I'd certainly prefer him at five : but I guess that only happens if Taylor wins a spot.

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:  
Pakistan conversly have all their eggs in the spin basket. .

Wahab riaz and Imran khan are pretty good and fast seamers

2 of them. Think they'll be able to deliver 74 overs like Englands did?

they have both struck....making life easier for spinners.

Subcontinents sides do bulk of bowling wit their 3 spinners and 2 seamers are quite enough for a pitch like this
soon you will see spin from one end for the rest of the day and from both ends for majority of the day

alfie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:  
Pakistan conversly have all their eggs in the spin basket. .

Wahab riaz and Imran khan are pretty good and fast seamers

2 of them. Think they'll be able to deliver 74 overs like Englands did?

Might not need to if they can get another wicket or two now

Good bowling (and catching) to see England two down for next to nothing : a lot on the key pair of Cook and Root now.

Disappointing from Bell.  Becoming a very dodgy starter.  I'd certainly prefer him at five : but I guess that only happens if Taylor wins a spot.

Well, at least that should guarantee Bell 40 odd second dig. The requisite amount to keep him in the side whilst doing insufficient to silence his critics.

Eight wickets having fallen in less than half a day ; you'd fancy a result in this one.
Bit of a contrast to yesterday.

I know we all complain about these flat pitches ; but we came very close to a result last week - and now this one is moving along. You wouldn't want to play on pitches like these every week ; but it is quite interesting to see how players adapt to the conditions. And I think I've seen deader tracks than these - and not just in the sub-continent.

Few more spectators would be nice though.

alfie wrote:

Few more spectators would be nice though.

Does Ian Ronald Bell count as a +1 for the spectator numbers  

Wahab bowled a lively spell there

Over to the spinners now : pleased to see the England bats are showing signs of not wishing to let them settle. One of the things I like about Root - he always seems to be looking to score , never gets too passive ; busy without being reckless.

Actually the scoring rate has been excellent , despite the loss of those two quick wickets.

Will be interesting to see how Yasir bowls as he gets into his spell ; already you can see how he can be dangerous , though his length wasn't quite right to start.

alfie wrote:

Over to the spinners now  : pleased to see the England bats are showing signs of not wishing to let them settle. One of the things I like about Root - he always seems to be looking to score , never gets too passive ; busy without being reckless.

I think that's Mahela's influence right there - could be seen in the First Test most players were trying to be proactive against the spinners

Joe root is quite good ain't he

Olly wrote:Joe root is quite good ain't he

No! - this type of comment will get him out. Joe Root is terrible, a home and flat track bully who only averages 56 from playing at Lord's against Bangladesh all the time

Ooft. That in swinging yorker to Cook was a little pearler. Not sure how it didn't bowl him, never mind LBW...

JDizzle wrote:Ooft. That in swinging yorker to Cook was a little pearler. Not sure how it didn't bowl him, never mind LBW...

Yes ! For a moment I thought it had bowled him...

Waste of a referral by Pakistan though : pretty big inside edge - umpires don't usually see those when they aren't there ; more likely to miss them.
Was a ripper of an inswinger : deserved better than a boundary

Tea at 105/2

Decent recovery by these two....plenty more to do yet ; but they've played very well.

Cook and Root like performances from ... errh ... Cook and Root.

Much needed and very valuable.

Alis a square peg in a round hole opening.

Bell...at some point you have to produce something.

I think all of the evidence is pointing to this being Bell's last series. He nearly quit after the summer and he must be perilously close to being dropped anyway

Cook is a much much better player of spin than pace.

Big blow ! Cook caught at leg slip ...shrewd field placing. Cook a little careless for once.

Surprised . I thought he was settled in for the next two days...

Pressure back on England now.

that's a big blow.....and may open floodgates.....

Eng is too much in arrears...there is more assitance for spin and some reverse in this pitch

Eng should have Taylor in for one of the seamers in their 11

Personally I'd put Taylor in for Bell not one of the seamers. I think we need the four seamers with two leaky spinners, but we wouldn't really miss Bell getting out for less than 10 and shelling every catch that comes near him

VTR wrote:I think all of the evidence is pointing to this being Bell's last series. He nearly quit after the summer and he must be perilously close to being dropped anyway

You may well be right. He'd have hoped for a big score here after his useful but hardly fluent effort last week. Getting out cheap ramps up the pressure on him...still only one decent innings in UAE. And the poor catching isn't helping his confidence.
I think they will want to have him in SA , for his experience apart from anything else - it won't be a picnic against Steyn & co. And there aren't too many "solid" batting spots in the England lineup at the moment...still a few players trying to establish themselves in the top order ( Moeen , Bairstow , Taylor ? , Stokes and Buttler) In fact , only Cook and Root look totally reliable.
But he has to justify his place : can't ride forever on past glories. Three more innings ; and he surely needs one big innings or a couple of pretty handy ones at least.

VTR wrote:Personally I'd put Taylor in for Bell not one of the seamers. I think we need the four seamers with two leaky spinners, but we wouldn't really miss Bell getting out for less than 10 and shelling every catch that comes near him

Agree with that. Definitely need the four pace men ; unless you want Jimmy carried off in a box...The spinners may be OK second innings ; but they just aren't able to exert any control early in a match.

Bell is a cricketer I am a huge fan of and have been from the start. I just get  so much enjoyment out of watching him bat. People always talk about the drives when in full flow - which are wonderful - but it's also the flicked pulls, delicate sweeps off the spinners, advance down the ground then knock'em over the top and the perfectly timed clips to the fence from anything on his legs.

Sadly he just seems so out of form and has for so long that I can't see him turning the slump around.

At the start of the summer I said it was make or break for him. If he had scored big, especially in the three spot, then he could pushed his average up into the high forties and sent away some doubters. This could have secured his place in the side as an experienced bat among all the young heads.

However if he continued to scratch around looking a fraction of the player he can be then he would end the summer with his average down in the low forties and fighting for his international career. Sadly the latter is what has occurred.

I hope I can be proven wrong but I am increasingly doubting that will happen - if it is to happen then the second innings here and maybe the third test could be his last chances to do so.

3 seamers is about the maximum that can be optimally used.....and when you have 2 spinners who will do a lot of bowling in first inning...and bulk of bowling in 2nd inning then one seamer is wasted.

Eng can afford this set-up only because one of their  seamers is a high quality all roudner ie Stokes who contributes as a much as a specialists batsman with the bat...and they are getting a mediocre opening batsman's output  out of their 6th bowler Ali.

I would agree re the 3 seamers ordinarily, but if you have an all-rounder like Stokes then its pretty nice for a captain to have 4 options as it gives more change or having 2 firing pacemen to call on - not just in terms of fitness but getting in a good rhythm.

Wood out-bowled Anderson today, under a 3 seamer scenario he probably wouldn't be in the team

BBC are running a '3 words to describe Ian Bell' comment section. It seems many of the contributors have similar opinions - a very technically gifted batsman, but one who was relatively weaker between the ears than several contemporaries. I think I'd go for 'Right handed Gower'.

If only we could meld Bell's technical ability and Collingwood's brain...

Then again, with the England selection policy we'd probably have picked and persevered with the one with Colly's technical ability and Bell's fighting spirit.

Timely 50 partnership.

That's the follow on saved anyway

dummy_half wrote:

If only we could meld Bell's technical ability and Collingwood's brain...

It a bit of a travesty that the way Bell's career seems to be fizzling out, he will end up with a similar low-40's average to Collingwood. Not quite a Ramprakash in terms of wasted talent, but if you look at Bell at his best (e.g. summer 2011), that's a player that should easily average around the 50 mark

VTR wrote:

Wood out-bowled Anderson today, under a 3 seamer scenario he probably wouldn't be in the team

selections should be on form and given pitch / weather conditions.....and here...Wood is a better option than Broad...because of his faster throuhg the air pace and ability to reverse......unlike broa who is a yard slower and needs something in the pitch.

Game evenly poised......pak need to pluck out Root quickly i.e before hundred and they will surely get a lead.
if root gets a 140 oddd.....Eng will lead.
a lead of 50 odd would offset the batting 4th situation

A very good day for England - we won every session imo, albeit by varying margins. However, still a lot to do. For all our honest endeavour with the ball and in the field yesterday, Pakistan had the better of day one by some distance.

A good day for England that. I really like the balance of the side, even if Moeen is slightly shoe horned I'm at opener. Having six options to bowl without really harming the batting too bad is something to be celebrated.

Big day in the career of Jonny Bairstow tomorrow. With Bell struggling, a big score tomorrow almost cements Taylor not coming in for him. A failure and the pressure is on him like bell

Great day for England, but still a lot of work to do. Bairstow is a slow starter and was just finding his groove, so I'm a bit nervous about him having to start over again tomorrow

And KP_Fan - I take your point but there is no way Wood plays over Broad in the England team at the moment. I very much doubt Wood could be accomodated as one of three seamers anyway given his injury record, but as one of four he can easily fit in bowling short spells

Olly wrote:A good day for England that. I really like the balance of the side, even if Moeen is slightly shoe horned I'm at opener. Having six options to bowl without really harming the batting too bad is something to be celebrated.

Big day in the career of Jonny Bairstow tomorrow. With Bell struggling, a big score tomorrow almost cements Taylor not coming in for him. A failure and the pressure is on him like bell

Olly - it's good to have bowling options and especially in these conditions. Miserable old git that I am though, I'll save my celebrations until the six have taken twenty wickets and we've gone on to win this Test.

Fully agree about Bairstow tomorrow.

Clearly England's day despite the loss of the two early wickets, but it has only put the game about even - KP is right that getting Root early tomorrow would be the big bonus for Pakistan, but if he goes on to make a big 100 we should be on top.

If Root and Bairstow can take us up past 250, it should set the stage for the likes of Stokes and Buttler to play with some freedom and move the game along. Still though really an 'any result' match situation - both sides bat well and it's a draw; one bats poorly and the other wins.

I honestly don't understand why either we can't start earlier or play on under lights - we know it is going to get dark around 5:30, so it is just really naff planning that we are losing overs at the end of each day

KP_fan wrote:

VTR wrote:

Wood out-bowled Anderson today, under a 3 seamer scenario he probably wouldn't be in the team

selections should be on form and given pitch / weather conditions.....and here...Wood is a better option than Broad...because of his faster throuhg the air pace and ability to reverse......unlike broa who is a yard slower and needs something in the pitch.

Woods taken 3 wickets and suddenly hes Alan Donald? 3-39 mopping up the a weak tail is hardly earth shattering..and his best figures in 7.5 tests. He hasnt even taken 2 wickets in an innings since Trent Bridge. He is a yard faster but hardly in the Wahab category, and one decent innings return doesnt change that.

Hes only in as one of 4 because of Finns injury. He is far from established in the team, no matter how much you hate Broad.
England are highly unlikley to shift from the 6 bowler set up on this tour now, its worked pretty well for them so its a moot point in the short term.
For SA one of the spinners (most likley Rashid) would be the one to make way to deepen the batting. So again the seamer scenario is unlikley to happen.

And if they were goin for 3 seamers .. then you could look at Stokes as being the weakest of the 4, and in a reduced bowlers set with increased batting cover his all rounder status is lower value. (Thing is hes getting as good results as any of the others in the last few games)

Unless you are talking about Patel coming in, in which case we might as well give up anyway.

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

VTR wrote:

Wood out-bowled Anderson today, under a 3 seamer scenario he probably wouldn't be in the team

selections should be on form and given pitch / weather conditions.....and here...Wood is a better option than Broad...because of his faster throuhg the air pace and ability to reverse......unlike broa who is a yard slower and needs something in the pitch.

Woods taken 3 wickets and suddenly hes Alan Donald? 3-39 mopping up the a weak tail is hardly earth shattering..and his best figures in 7.5 tests. He hasnt even taken 2 wickets in an innings since Trent Bridge. He is a yard faster but hardly in the Wahab category, and one decent innings return doesnt change that.

Hes only in as one of 4 because of Finns injury. He is far from established in the team, no matter how much you hate Broad.
England are highly unlikley to shift from the 6 bowler set up on this tour now, its worked pretty well for them so its a moot point in the short term.
For SA one of the spinners (most likley Rashid) would be the one to make way to deepen the batting. So again the seamer scenario is unlikley to happen.

And if they were goin for 3 seamers .. then you could look at Stokes as being the weakest of the 4, and in a reduced bowlers set with increased batting cover his all rounder status is lower value. (Thing is hes getting as good results as any of the others in the last few games)

Unless you are talking about Patel coming in, in which case we might as well give up anyway.

Goose - I noticed you said the same earlier. Is it definitely so that Finn would have played ahead of Wood? Getting on the plane to the UAE, I would have put Wood in front. Finn then did well in one of the warm ups which I reckon would have put them on about an equal and ''difficult to call'' footing.

Wood would probably have played T1, Finn T2.

But that is pure guesswork.

Englad have done well to compete on at least equal terms having lost the toss. Looks like we will really need every one in our long batting line up to show their worth.

From the buzz pre tour I think Finn would've played. He was good in the ashes too.

Most likely change for SA is Rashid out and Hales into open I'd imagine. Bell out for Taylor maybe

Afternoon everyone (in the words of the much missed R. Benaud)

Have to agree with Olly and guildford that tomorrow is a big day for Bairstow. For all the talk of Bell's struggles, Bairstow since (rightfully) forcing his way back into the side has not set the world alight, with only one knock of substance. I like the way he went about his business today, with more positive intent, after his rather scratchy effort in the first test (first innings, obv.). Struggled against Yasir early on, but there's no shame in that, and battled through well. Slightly worried that he's not very adept at ticking the score over, but probably less bothersome with Root at the other end.

Overall a very good day for England, but after Pak had a great first day they've pretty much just put the game back in the balance. The pitch feels livelier than the first Test, slightly more pace and bounce, and certainly more movement (touch of conventional swing, quite a bit of reverse, and already some spin).

England have played the spinners pretty well on the whole, and again I like the positive intent. Zulfiqar hasn't been great, and I do wonder if he's feeling the exertions from the first Test, where he bowled a silly amount of overs. England's six-man attack, without sacrificing much to the batting, has been very good at making sure no one's overbowled. If we had Panesar and Swann it almost certainly wouldn't be necessary, but with the two spinners fairly expensive it's worked out very well.

I'm personally not entirely sure Finn would've been picked ahead of Wood, thought the noises from the England camp were that Wood was down to play (I think Finn gave an interview where he stated he didn't expect to play), though wouldn't have been surprised to see Finn make an appearance at some point in the series.

Huge first session tomorrow morning obviously. England could certainly do with Root to make a big one. Anyone know if he can overtake Smith at n°1 in the rankings with a big score here?

On a side note, I'm a bit surprised by the Guardian's suggestion that "Pakistan have taken control of the second Test" and that "England have a mountain to climb". England certainly have a lot of work to do, and you could make a case for Pak being still ahead in the game right now (runs on the board, England batting last, etc.) but there certainly isn't much in it.

OK here are some (either quite interesting, or very boring, depending on how much you like such things) statistics about Joe Root's runs being important to England. It stems from a vague thought I had that since Root came back into the side after being dropped in Aus (so summer 2014) I couldn't remember a game where he'd scored significant stats in an England defeat. So...

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/303669.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;result=2;spanmin1=13+Feb+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/303669.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;result=1;result=4;spanmin1=13+Feb+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

There you have it. In the afore mentionned time frame (since Feb 2014), Root averages 130 when England draw or win, with a remarkable 1700 runs including 6 centuries in 12 matches. In England's six defeats in that time, he's scored just 193 runs at an average of 16 with a best of 66.

So at least my instincts were correct, make of those stats what you will...

Hi folks.

I have been watching this series and this test is up for grabs as it is progressing on much quicker than the first. As it sits just now England need a century from Root and also you feel it is time Bairstow really applied himself and shows his worth in the team with a really meaningful score - not just another in the late 20s or early 30s. The same goes for Jos Buttler as well. Any sort of a lead England can dig out could be crucial. But to get that lead they need to bat through most of tomorrow. At the moment England have the edge but if Pakistan can get another couple of wickets in the morning session then it will be hard to see England getting to parity after the first innings.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:OK here are some (either quite interesting, or very boring, depending on how much you like such things) statistics about Joe Root's runs being important to England. It stems from a vague thought I had that since Root came back into the side after being dropped in Aus (so summer 2014) I couldn't remember a game where he'd scored significant stats in an England defeat. So...

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/303669.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;result=2;spanmin1=13+Feb+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/303669.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;result=1;result=4;spanmin1=13+Feb+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

There you have it. In the afore mentionned time frame (since Feb 2014), Root averages 130 when England draw or win, with a remarkable 1700 runs including 6 centuries in 12 matches. In England's six defeats in that time, he's scored just 193 runs at an average of 16 with a best of 66.

So at least my instincts were correct, make of those stats what you will...

Well MFC without wishing to rain on your parade () but usually when a teams best players plays well the chances of them winning goes up significantly 

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
...
On a side note, I'm a bit surprised by the Guardian's suggestion that "Pakistan have taken control of the second Test" and that "England have a mountain to climb". England certainly have a lot of work to do, and you could make a case for Pak being still ahead in the game right now (runs on the board, England batting last, etc.) but there certainly isn't much in it.

Hi MfC - I share your surprise. Unlike Craig [good to have you back, Craig  ], I would currently put Pakistan ahead. However, only by the narrowest of margins. Mainly for the typical sort of reasons you touch on plus a lurking doubt about the inability of others to stay with Root and make a meaningful score themselves (Craig alludes to this as well). However, the Grauniad are well wide of the mark imo in stating ''Pakistan have taken control''. A lot of distance to be covered before that can be claimed upon behalf of either side.

Yes ... To suggest Pakistan is in control seems a massive overstatement.
If a casual observer looked at the scores they'd probably expect the side batting second to turn 180/3 into at least 400 : our own reservations are surely based largely on suspicions of fallibility against spin bowling surrounding most of the later batsmen. And a few recent instances of careless collapses , perhaps

Look it's far from a done deal ; but sensible batting on day three should enable England to get up near to , or past , 378. Not as if it's turning square or skidding through low yet : in fact Wahab has often looked the biggest threat so far. And players like Stokes and Buttler were OK in the first Test...Of course , it could all go wrong ; and a lot of concentration will be needed . But to be honest , I reckon the situation right now is pretty even : if England fail on day three , that will be day three's failure rather than any naturally following consequence of the first two days.

Somewhat abstract point , perhaps. But I trust you see what I mean...

Thanks for the welcome back guildfordbat.

On reflection I think after this morning's session ee will have a better idea who is in a stronger position. If England get through it with the loss of no more than one wicket for 90 runs then England will be moving into the box seat. If Pakistan take three wickets or more they have control.

Now our fears maybe realised as England's soft underbelly is exposed. 400 looks a long way off now unless we get another big partnership soon.

Game over I think. Big fan of Buttler but don't see how he can not be dropped at this rate

Well this is up there with any good England collapse!