England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

LondonTiger wrote:Thankfully we have a couple of months and 4 rounds in Europe before the EPS will be named.

There are too many questions around players right now:

Can Hartley find form and keep his cool - Never been an issue at international level
Will George withhold the Brits challenge - Yes George is No.1 now.
Can Marler and Cole find any sort of form. - I have no doubt they will come good again
Can Mako and Brookes demonstrate they are capable of lasting more than 30 minutes at international pace. - Nope
Can Slater and Kitchener get fit and put in a run of games. - Yes
Can Lawes and Launchbury show previous form. - Launchbury yes. Lawes needs to adapt his game a little.
Can Attwood get back in the picture. - Yes with a slight change of tactics
Can Kruis be any more than a hard working lightweight. -Nope
Will Parling be injured long term and is he now an ex-international. - Nope move on
Can Itoje get a series of games for Sarries. - Yes was captain the other game
Will Burgess stay in RU. - Yes
Can Fraser nail down a first team spot and stay fit. - Yes, had a major op in the summer to fix the problem.
Will Wood and Robshaw ever play together again. - Nope
Will Billy V recover. - Yes Should Hughes be considered - Irrelevant he WILL be considered in the AI's
Is Kvesic lightweight. - Absolutely not
Will youngs recover from the ankle injury sustained against Wales. - Yes
Will Care regain a semblance of form. - Yes, looked sharp against Uruguay. Needs to continue
Who will be first choice SH at Wasps. - Who knows

Bored now - but more questions than answers.

But to answer a couple.

Attwood needs to bang on the bulk again as he's half the player without it.

Locks I'd go with are: Symons, Launchbury, Slater, Kitchener.

Big bruising locks. Lawes is just too lightweight around the park bar tackling backs, similar with Kruis to a certain extent.

Let's get back to being no push overs!

I thought Kruis' carrying was decent in the Six Nations and WC. Certainly better than Lawes'.

I think Lawes is in the Borthwick mould for carrying

Lawes is another who needs to go back to his club and not come back into the occasion until he's really in form. I'm happy with one lock who is better in the lineout than the other but we still need them to be useful in the loose.

Please never remind me about Borthwick's carrying.

I think he regularly clocked up "negitive metres" on the stats.....

Are England now the new dark horses for the 6N?

For me a pack of:

1. Corbisiero, M. Vunipola
2. Hartley, George
3. Cole, Brookes
4. Launchbury, Kitchener
5. Attwood, Lawes/Itoje
6. Haskell, Ewers
7. Robshaw, Kvesic
8. B. Vunipola, Morgan

Very much focused on the now with a blend of youth. More than capable of physically matching anyone upfront, with the right game plan.

Strong at scrum, strong in the lineout with the 6's offering the third jumping option. 6 and 8 as the main carriers into the 10 channel, big locks to smash the rucks and come round the corner, powerful props picking and going offering the short pop. And 7's with strict instructions to stand at the rear of the lineout, don't jump, don't lift, don't carry just secure the ball and act as a link man and support the attacks.

Id be reluctant to put Corbs in there starting after his last few years.

In fact I'm reluctant to really name a side until ive watched a good few games and see how everyone is playing.

I agree with a lot of whats been said about players regaining form and getting back in to real shape.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Lawes is in the Borthwick mould for carrying

Ah ive really lost a lot of interest in him Sgt. I appreciate some of what he offers, but I just think he needs to offer a hell of a lot more.

We have other locks who can do what he offers but offer a lot more.

Again if we pick the right back 5...45678 then I don't think we need or have space for a Lawes type player.

Looks like Sam's for returning to RL - yet another one of SL's fails?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Looks like Sam's for returning to RL - yet another one of SL's fails?

Yes just read about that on the beeb. If that is true it is such a shame that he was thrust into 'centre' stage for England at a home world cup before he was ready.

I wouldn't want him to leave but I can not blame him for wanting to go back to a place where he is a legend.

Lancaster it's over, resign, let the review board spend time deciding how to pick the next England coach so we can actually win something.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Lawes is in the Borthwick mould for carrying

Ah ive really lost a lot of interest in him Sgt. I appreciate some of what he offers, but I just think he needs to offer a hell of a lot more.

We have other locks who can do what he offers but offer a lot more.

Again if we pick the right back 5...45678 then I don't think we need or have space for a Lawes type player.

He wasn't at the races at the world cup, but he has played a lot better for us in the past

But in reality LIW he's like Croft. One 6n campaign he was outstanding but all the rest he was a luxury.

Lawes was superb for one campaign...but hasn't done much in any of the others.

I just think we have other options.

Of course I'm happy to eat my hat if a top coach comes in and puts in the right tactics

As for Burgess.
I think Lancaster etc have been shocking in their treatment of him. Every man and their dog knew he should have been at flanker...but Lancaster insisted on trying to make him our Sonny Bill.

If it was up to me id head straight back to the Rabbitohs with my brothers.

Regarding Lawes v Kruis carrying stats in the last 6 nations.  From ESPN:

For our 4 locks (not counting Easter who covered)

Lawes - runs 12 : distance 25m - 2.1m per carry (6 runs per game)
Attwood - runs 16 : distance 21m - 1.3m per carry (4 runs per game)
Kruis - runs 10 : distance 16m - 1.6m per carry (3.3 runs per game)
Parling - runs 9 : distance 6m - 0.7m per carry (4.5 runs per game)

So Lawes carried the most per game AND the furthest per carry.

England v France
Lawes - Runs 6 : distance 7m - 1.2m per carry
Atwood - not involved
Kruis - not involved.
Parling - Runs 5 : distance 1m - 0.2m per carry

England v Italy
Lawes - not involved
Atwood - Runs 5 : distance 10m - 2m per carry
Kruis - Runs 2 : distance 1m - 0.5m per carry
Parling - not involved

England v Scotland
Lawes - Runs 6 : distance 18m - 3.0m per carry
Atwood - Runs 4 : distance 3m - 0.8m per carry
Kruis - not involved
Parling - Runs 4 : distance 5m - 1.3m per carry

England v Wales
Lawes - not involved
Attwood - Runs 4 : Distance 7m - 1.8m per carry
Kruis - Runs 6 : Distance 4m - 0.7m per carry
Parling - not involved

England v Ireland
Lawes - not involved
Attwood - runs 3 : distance 1 - 0.3m per carry
Kruis - runs 2 : distance 11m - 5.5m per cary
Parling - not involved

Not totally convinced reading stats like that.

Was his carrying in space. Was the others in the tight.
What did the carries lead to ie how effective is the carrying

And to be fair....should we be shouting over only 25m carried in a number of games? None of the locks have covered themselves in glory there.

Our carrying stats for everyone would probably be much improved if we actually used our brains, ran at space or fixed a man and passed enabling others to get a ball in space.

I feel a man in the desert waiting for snow.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But in reality LIW he's like Croft. One 6n campaign he was outstanding but all the rest he was a luxury.

Lawes was superb for one campaign...but hasn't done much in any of the others.

I just think we have other options.

Of course I'm happy to eat my hat if a top coach comes in and puts in the right tactics

As for Burgess.
I think Lancaster etc have been shocking in their treatment of him. Every man and their dog knew he should have been at flanker...but Lancaster insisted on trying to make him our Sonny Bill.

If it was up to me id head straight back to the Rabbitohs with my brothers.

I don't think that is that fair about Croft. He had more than one decent 6N campaign, hes just a bit 'marmite'

little_badger wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Looks like Sam's for returning to RL - yet another one of SL's fails?

Yes just read about that on the beeb. If that is true it is such a shame that he was thrust into 'centre' stage for England at a home world cup before he was ready.

I wouldn't want him to leave but I can not blame him for wanting to go back to a place where he is a legend.

Lancaster it's over, resign, let the review board spend time deciding how to pick the next England coach so we can actually win something.

One season - not even a full one - is not much time to learn a new sport.  Burgess did OK in his one season, not better than that.  Maybe he thought he would be great right from the start?  

Yet, I think if he was not substituted against Wales, England win that game.   Hands down.

You need stats to tell you both Kruis and Lawes are poor carriers.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But in reality LIW he's like Croft. One 6n campaign he was outstanding but all the rest he was a luxury.

Lawes was superb for one campaign...but hasn't done much in any of the others.

I just think we have other options.

Of course I'm happy to eat my hat if a top coach comes in and puts in the right tactics

As for Burgess.
I think Lancaster etc have been shocking in their treatment of him. Every man and their dog knew he should have been at flanker...but Lancaster insisted on trying to make him our Sonny Bill.

If it was up to me id head straight back to the Rabbitohs with my brothers.

I don't think that is that fair about Croft. He had more than one decent 6N campaign, hes just a bit 'marmite'

That's probably very true.

Seems Sam was heard humming that famous Clash song and the BBC had a scoop:

:music:Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me know
This indecision's bugging me
If you don't want me set me free
Exactly who I'm supposed to be
Don't you know which clothes even fits me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?

It's also SL's favourite track, so I don't know what to think.

Bath seem to think hes definitely staying.

The English media seem to think he's Definitely going.

I have my suspicions he'll look at the shambles of the RFU, Lancaster, how he's been messed about...his brothers in Oz, isn't his wife Australian, the weather and say.....cheerio...

He would face a battle from Ewers to make the side anyway at 6...so even that's not clear cut.

He faces a battle full stop but he could be an excellent 6. Just doesn't/didn't strike me as someone who would quit early. I guess if you know you're on top money anyway and will be a superstar in Aus it would be tempting but the Lions are coming up. Would be pretty special to cap a career if could make that.

To the extent that you can feel sorry for a young man getting paid a reasonable wedge to live in a beautiful town and play professional sport for a living, I do feel sorry for Burgess and I wouldn't blame him for going back. There is an opportunity cost for him to stay here and I don't think that he's been treated all that well by the England executive, unintentional though that perhaps was.

He didn't ask to be suddenly annointed as England's great white hope, he didn't ask to be shunted around positions and he certainly didn't ask for the entire England midfield to be wrenched around to accommodate him in the most important games in recent memory. All he can do is express an interest in playing and that's exactly what he did. The rest of what happened isn't up to him. Couple that with the feral and often hysterical press response to not making the knock out stages and I think that anyone looking at that foul jamboree would re-consider precisely what it is that they'd got themselves into.

People love a scapegoat, it seems, and I hope that if this RFU performance review is carried out with any sense of measure and objectivity, England rugby would do well to realise that the issues were with coaching and selection and not with players who have only been in the code for a few months.

I also don't buy claims of 'arrogance' (or similar) that are apparently proven by Burgess coming over in the first place. From the interviews that I've seen, he's been the first to admit that the transition has been tough and he's had to start from the bottom. What else is he supposed to say? Even Sonny Bill got a full season and a half in the code before people starting seriously making quality assessments.

So go home to your family, be treated like the hero you already are, know you are the best in your code and raise a family in a beautiful house in Dolan's Bay. Or you stay, try and re-build your reputation and get sledged by people who will probably never give you the respect you deserve for having the stones to come here in the first place and try out in union.

Tough one.

I don't think that many people have laid any blame at Burgess' feet. Bar someone being upset that they felt he overstepped the mark with his work harder comments everyone has been positive. It's not his fault Lancaster saw a midfielder in him and then compounded that by asking him to play with Barritt. He's done as well as he could.

Agree 7.5 - im certainly not blaming Burgess and I don't think many are.

His management (England ) have completely let him down as I feel they have a few others as well.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Seems Sam was heard humming that famous Clash song and the BBC had a scoop:

:music:Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me know
This indecision's bugging me
If you don't want me set me free
Exactly who I'm supposed to be
Don't you know which clothes even fits me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?

It's also SL's favourite track, so I don't know what to think.

The song for Lancaster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree 7.5 - im certainly not blaming Burgess and I don't think many are.

His management (England ) have completely let him down as I feel they have a few others as well.

I don't think he was especially let down either. I do think picking him in the first place given the normal strategy of giving new players at least a year to get past the hype was a failure of nerve on the part of the management

I don't understand they hype around him anyway tbh, why is he such a special case?

He's obviously throwing his teddy's as he hasn't made as big an impact as he thought.

Good riddance.

That's what I mean LIW

He shouldn't have been picked in the first place...and secondly should never have been picked at centre. I would say that's being let down.

Despite that he actually did ok...and as mentioned if he had stayed on the pitch we would probably have won that Wales game.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand they hype around him anyway tbh, why is he such a special case?

He's obviously throwing his teddy's as he hasn't made as big an impact as he thought.

Good riddance.

It also feels very much a case of build'em up to knock'em down by the media I think Sgt.

It was a move that felt largely driven by media hype more than anything. He has been thrown in the deep end too early by a panicking coaching team who seemed to believe that Manu would be back for the RWC then didn't know what to do without their best battering ram or the ability/conviction to coach a better game plan.

Personally I feel he has done well for Bath in a very short space of time. To evolve into a flanker in only a few months of playing there and show up well in a struggling pack in the Prem final is mightily impressive IMO.

Given more time at blindside he could certainly get even better still and become a very fine player given his physical attributes.

He simply should never have been at this RWC though.

I can understand the hype as he's one of the top league players around. He does, or did last year, look to be an excellent 6 as well. PLay to his strengths of carrying and Tackling and he looks a top player. He was also very good at the breakdown at 6. He's just not got the vision, passing, speed, footwork etc of a back.

He's a nice attraction for people in the premiership and yes maybe one day he'll be a good union blindside flanker.

If he goes I'll feel sorry for him for about 5 minutes that he got picked at 12 when he isn't a 12 but I'll move on and get excited that we have some real potential in the backrow and I'm not sure we'll miss him at all.

I agree with Pooly to a certain extent, as things stand he won't be that much of a loss to England if he does head back to Australia. He was never the answer to our centre travails and he may have turned into a very good blind-side, but this was never guaranteed. I would have preferred that he stuck around to give it a go, but if his heart isn't in it what can you do?

There are a number of options at blind-side who can come in and make an impact (who already know the role).

Definitely. Loads of good options. I'd just like to know who's going to be the one picking them now. Getting impatient.

1.Marler, Mako
2.George, Hartley, Youngs
3.D Wilson, Cole, Thomas
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Lawes, Kitchener/Symons
6.Ewers, Itoje
7.Kvesic, Robshaw
8.Morgan, Billy

9.Youngs, Care, Simpson/Robson
10.Ford, Slade, Farrell

11.May, Nowell
12.Tuilagi, Burrell
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Wade
15.Brown, Pennell

Get that lot led by a coaching team with the conviction and nous to get them playing heads up rugby.

Head coach - Dave Rennie
Assistant, backs coach - Wayne Smith
Defence coach - Shaun Edwards or Gustard
Forwards coach - Rob Baxter

Ah I can but dream

I rate Sam.
He's been in RU for a few months and makes the test side.
He's been switched to the BR for his club side but makes test centre.
And on the whole he doesn't look out of place (let's face it he was better than Barritt).
This from a former RL forward. You've got to be impressed. Imagine what he could be like if he learns his RU trade in the BR.
The sausage up was SL's - he showed his lack of bottle and muddled thinking with his centre selections. It was a worrying sign of desperation that he thought he could save his midfield this way. Shoot the organ-grinder, not the monkey. I hope he stays.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Definitely. Loads of good options. I'd just like to know who's going to be the one picking them now. Getting impatient.

Well that's the critical part. If its Lancaster don't expect much of a change from track.....

I too hope that Burgess stays. As Barney says, anyone who has been messed about this much yet can still be as competent (nothing more or less) as he looked in open play after barely a year of union could be very good with some more time

He doesn't strike me as the type to up and run, so hopefully its just media bullschmidt

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Definitely. Loads of good options. I'd just like to know who's going to be the one picking them now. Getting impatient.

Well that's the critical part. If its Lancaster don't expect much of a change from track.....

Or expect a u turn come the important game.

Without considering injuries, my squad would look something like this:


01. Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola & Nick Auterac
02. Dylan Hartley, Jamie George and Tom Youngs
03. Dan Cole, Kieran Brookes & Henry Thomas
04. Joe Launchbury, Ed Slater & Maro Itoje
05. Graham Kitchener, Courtney Lawes
06. Chris Robshaw, Matt Garvey & Dave Ewers
07. Matt Kvesic, Will Fraser & Jack Clifford
08. Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola

09. Ben Youngs, Danny Care & Dan Robson
10. George Ford & Owen Farrell

11. Jonny May, Marland Yarde
12. Henry Slade & Ollie Devoto
13. Jon Joseph & Manu Tuilagi & Luther Burrell
14. Anthony Watson & Jack Nowell
15. Mike Brown & Ben Foden

Not many for Cipriani.

Are you copying off me Cubrian!

Pretty much how I'd go bar Garvey, Brookes and Youngs.

If Slade is seen just as a centre, then Cips would be my 3rd 10

Great minds an' all that...

BamBam wrote:If Slade is seen just as a centre, then Cips would be my 3rd 10

I would have Slade as an inside centre who can cover ten in the squad. His flexibility allows you to strengthen other areas.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not many for Cipriani.

I have been a massive fan of Cipriani for years (watched him play age grade rugby too!), but I just don't know if there is a place for him now.

Cumbrian wrote:Without considering injuries, my squad would look something like this:


04. Joe Launchbury, Ed Slater & Maro Itoje
05. Graham Kitchener, Courtney Lawes Attwood

06. Chris Robshaw, Matt Garvey & Dave Ewers
07. Matt Kvesic, Will Fraser & Jack Clifford
08. Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola

Now that I like Cumbrian. Plenty of options and some real powerful options who can play.

Look at the back row options...now your talking!!

To Cumbrian's list I might just add Roko as a wing option since he brings a bit more physicality than the other wingers.  But I don't think overall England lacks talent.