Howley's Comments on Henson

“Gavin has been there and done it. He was part of the 2005 and 2008 Grand Slam teams and has been a player who has been highly influential for Wales when he has played"

3 times in one sentence !! Still, better a "has been" than a "never been"

The current set ups treatment of Peel is a disgrace. When we were winning I could look over personal issues to a certain extent, but Howley lost his Welsh berth to Peel yet is expected to make subjective assessments of him!

I honestly cant see the reason for Henson to be considered so highly. He was a good player but never a great so why all the fuss about him?

I dont really care, as long as all Henson articles are kept in ONE blog. Old 606 was a nightmare for them.

It matters to us Eirebilly. He is the player necessary to confirm BODs greatness.

I'm sure you meant objective and not subjective glas.

I am sure it matters glas but i have just never seen anything about him that warrents all the fuss.

eirebilly wrote:I am sure it matters glas but i have just never seen anything about him that warrents all the fuss.

This is the type of comment that stirs the pot though Billy (not that I am accusing you of doing that!).

Opposition coaches, his own coaches, opposition players, journalists, commentators and summarisers of every nation can see that the lad has bags of talent (albeit largely wasted at the moment). Sure Henson brings negatives to the table in terms of personality clashes and arguably team cohesiveness, and he has without doubt made stupid mistakes off the field that have not endeared him to club mates, national side colleagues and his coaches, BUT I never hear anyone dismissing his Rugby ability EXCEPT wind up merchants and people who know f**ck all about the Sport.

"He is the player necessary to confirm BODs greatness."

I'm not sure I understand what this means?

Woah there ML, i never said that he wasnt good, I just said that i dont think that he was that great to warrent such a fuss after all these years out. You really are barking up the wrong tree in assuming i know nothing about the game.

I just honestly feel that he needs to prove his strength and desire again to warrant a re-selection. A fully fit Henson is a great asset to any team but he cant get into a side based soley on his name. He must first displace some great players that deserve to be there.

eirebilly - I think a lot of people would agree with that, well apart from the Welsh coaching staff it seems! Whilst I'm glad he's getting a chance to prove himself again, I'm not sure what he's done to warrant a starting spot. Then again, Wales have severe lack of depth at centre, so you could have been looking at starting Scott Williams instead for his first ever cap.

In this instance I think Wales have done the right thing by starting him (due to having not many other options), but he really is on his last chance I think. It'll be interesting to see if any club will take him after the world cup.

A hugely talented player no doubt, but not a great one (he's not played enough to prove it in my opinion), so I hope he makes the most of this opportunity.

Thanks rugbydreamer, i honestly didnt mean anything bad in my comments.

no worries eirebilly I know you didn't am glad you went on to explain fully what you meant though

Yeah, i wasnt that clear was i . Still i didnt warrant that.

I can't help feeling Gatland's reaching out on this one, it smacks of desparation to me.

They don't know if he's properly fit, they don't know if he's on test-match level form, they only know they need some creativity in midfield, only time will tell in Henson's the answer - problem is it'll probably be too late by then.

Ah but that's the trouble you get when joining a Henson debate, things invariably get a bit heated!

I'm not too bothered about Henson being selected for the game on Saturday. It's a relatively meaningless game in the grand scheme of things so they may as well see how he goes. But if he shows nothing against the Baa-baas to suggest he's anywhere near his best and STILL gets selected for subsequent matches, then that would be a disgrace and any claims from the coaching setup that they pick players on form will clearly be bogus.

Very true Lucky, I do think he needs to be given a chance though, he's one of the few fit centres we have that actually has international experience! I think the WC this year is too soon for the likes of Scott Williams (talented though he is!)

eirebilly wrote:Woah there ML, i never said that he wasnt good, I just said that i dont think that he was that great to warrent such a fuss after all these years out. You really are barking up the wrong tree in assuming i know nothing about the game.

Apologies Billy - I did not mean to imply that you know nothing about the game (i did say I was not accusing you!).



I was merely pointing out WHY so many posts are made about Henson. He has become the stick with which to beat the Welsh supporters by the "arrivistes" in the supporters ranks. The ones who have suddenly become Rugby mad since the national side they support has become successful (and yes, sorry, I DO mean SOME of the English and Irish "supporters" of the last decade, because no-one else has had much success!).

Fair dues ML. The last thing i am is a WUM.

PJHolybloke wrote:I can't help feeling Gatland's reaching out on this one, it smacks of desparation to me.

They don't know if he's properly fit, they don't know if he's on test-match level form, they only know they need some creativity in midfield, only time will tell in Henson's the answer - problem is it'll probably be too late by then.

I dont think the coaching team think the situation is ideal, but I can see why they are doing it. Our midfield has been stagnant and unproductive for 3 seasons now, we desperately need a game breaker in midfield, someone to add a bit of spark. With Hook looking like he may well be sharing games with Jones at 10, that need has become ever more apparent.

Henson has become the lynchpin for the side's success in the backs because the game plan demands it. Unfortunately we dont have many players in Wales capable of filling that role - two New Zealanders and some youngsters who whilst very promising, wont be ready for Intl Rugby for a season or two yet.

So its Henson + 1 other or face the World Cup with the same misfiring midfield (in attacking terms) we have had for three years. I wouldnt be at all surprised to see henson playing a part in all the warm up games. Gatland and co will want to give him EVERY opportunity to prove himself.

If he DOESNT prove himself and still makes the WC Squad, then we can talk about Gatland making an error.

No-one is disputing Henson has talent. It just takes more than talent to make a rugby player. It takes determination, discipline, character, team spirit- to persevere when things are tough, to put dreams of personal glory aside for the sake of your team, to make sacrifices in your own life to be the best you can be.

The people who diss Henson don't do it because they think he lacks talent. He was never a great rugby player because he didn't really want to be a great rugby player- or he wasn't willing to make the sacrifices demanded of him to be a great.

Despite this, he still can be a fantastic player. It is not too late for redemption.

Notch wrote:No-one is disputing Henson has talent. It just takes more than talent to make a rugby player. It takes determination, discipline, character, team spirit- to persevere when things are tough, to put dreams of personal glory aside for the sake of your team, to make sacrifices in your own life to be the best you can be.

The people who diss Henson don't do it because they think he lacks talent. He was never a great rugby player because he didn't really want to be a great rugby player- or he wasn't willing to make the sacrifices demanded of him to be a great.

Despite this, he still can be a fantastic player. It is not too late for redemption.

I should say if I was where Gatland is I'd definitely do the same thing and pick him for the BaaBaas game. It's the perfect way to re-integrate him into the Wales set-up and see how the players react to him. How he does off the pitch is as important as how he does on the pitch. If he generates resentment and undermines the team spirit he is not worth the hassle. I expect him to do the business on the pitch, so that's the only question.

ML wrote:Our midfield has been stagnant and unproductive for 3 seasons now, we desperately need a game breaker in midfield, someone to add a bit of spark. With Hook looking like he may well be sharing games with Jones at 10, that need has become ever more apparent.

The absence of Gavin Henson is not the reason our midfield has been so poor for so long. I'd argue that it has more to do with playing an outside half in the centre and Warren Gatland's obsession with using Jamie Roberts as a battering ram to the exclusion of any other tactic.

Notch, while I don't think it's ever too late for redemption I do think it is in the case of Gavin Henson. A supremely talented player, but unfortunately he is the ultimate narcissist. In the street it's OK, in a Rugby setting it's been proven that it isn't.

Does he deserve to be in the Welsh camp at the moment? Debatable. But if they're handing out caps against the Barbarians in the first place it makes you think how highly the alickadoos within the WRU value the jersey anyway.

ML, sorry didn't want to quote your quote of mine as it would probably fill a page.

I think we actually agree on this one, I can see that you could interpret what I wrote as a potential bash, but we agree over the creativity issue and we also agree over the less than ideal circumstances.

Notch has pitched in with the passion, drive, committment angle with justification, and the net result is that nobody knows how Henson will perform and how/if he will develop towards the WC.

Henson has talent, I think that's a given, whether or not after 2 years out of the cauldron he's ready for the test match intensity of today is the real question.

Personally I think it's a bit late to be asking that question as it leaves little time for a Plan B - I think that's the root of Gatland's problem.

PJHolybloke wrote:ML, sorry didn't want to quote your quote of mine as it would probably fill a page.

I think we actually agree on this one, I can see that you could interpret what I wrote as a potential bash, but we agree over the creativity issue and we also agree over the less than ideal circumstances.

Notch has pitched in with the passion, drive, committment angle with justification, and the net result is that nobody knows how Henson will perform and how/if he will develop towards the WC.

Henson has talent, I think that's a given, whether or not after 2 years out of the cauldron he's ready for the test match intensity of today is the real question.

Personally I think it's a bit late to be asking that question as it leaves little time for a Plan B - I think that's the root of Gatland's problem.

Gatland already has his plan B! we do what we have done for the past few seasons - bosh it up the middle with JRoberts. It is the desperation for a less predictable plan A that is the reason for Henson's inclusion at this late stage! There simply isnt another WQ number 12 (YET) who can offer what Henson does if he is fit and firing on all cylinders

True enough ML, it could be worse though, England appear to be toying with the idea of playing Banahan at 12, or alternatively, Bath's second best IC of last season...

Personally, I'd like Henson to come through as I'm a bit of an old romantic, but I can't help thinking he'll be totally off the test match pace.

PJ, I agree, its a big risk. But looking at the alternatives available to gatland, I think it is a risk he HAS to take in the warm up games. If it doesn't work, we havent lost anything (apart from the warm up games!). If it does work - it could make a BIG difference to our WC campaign.

Well at least you're not greeting his selection like the second coming.

IMHO there's been a lack of purpose about Wales' midfield since Shanks went off the burn, Roberts showed some class that got him a Lions selection but has faded since, without a bit of flair at first receiver though, any team suffers at test level.

You're right in that Gatland's got little to lose on this one but plenty to gain.

All the best for the Baa-baas, but I hope Wales have a couple of stinkers in August.

SB wrote:Notch, while I don't think it's ever too late for redemption I do think it is in the case of Gavin Henson. A supremely talented player, but unfortunately he is the ultimate narcissist. In the street it's OK, in a Rugby setting it's been proven that it isn't.

Does he deserve to be in the Welsh camp at the moment? Debatable. But if they're handing out caps against the Barbarians in the first place it makes you think how highly the alickadoos within the WRU value the jersey anyway.

It's a very easy way to promote a game that might otherwise by met by some end of season fatigue and indifference.

Notch wrote:"He is the player necessary to confirm BODs greatness."

I'm not sure I understand what this means?

It means that when you compare the two BOD appears even greater. See?

red_stag wrote:I'm sure you meant objective and not subjective glas.

How careless of me! Hahahahaha! Oh no, lawyers jokes, need to get out more.

I do sort of Glas, but at the same time no-one is comparing Henson to BOD in the same way no-one is comparing Graeme Morrison to BOD or Shontayne Hape to BOD*

*(I know Henson is a more talented player- see above)

Notch wrote:I do sort of Glas, but at the same time no-one is comparing Henson to BOD in the same way no-one is comparing Graeme Morrison to BOD or Shontayne Hape to BOD*

*(I know Henson is a more talented player- see above)

it is actually a great shame that the BoD/Henson partnership didn't take off for the Lions. Of course, Henson acted like a Muppet, no denying that, but I expected more of BOD as captain - his outright hostility to Henson was not appropriate for the Lions skipper, no matter what had gone on before.

But ML, with respect, he has since been proven right. Or not?

Notch, it os because of the Lions nonsense that the comparison is made. Every hero needs a baddy, Henson is the baddy in the chronicle of BOD.

Gibson wrote:But ML, with respect, he has since been proven right. Or not?

Proven right about what? My point is not that Henson was a prat (he was) , but that BOD failed dismally as a captain on that tour!

Fair enough ML. It's an opinion-based forum. But he has since proved to be unmanagable. Willie-John or MJ, maybe, would have sorted him out. You may have a point about BOD on that Tour. I think he indirectly showed his disrespect for him.

Problem is, BOD wasnt the Captain long enough, for them to get over it and show their sublime talent together in the Tests. 2 minutes into the 1st Test wasn't it? Did Alfie do any better? I think not. His unpopularity with the Lions, spread a lot further than BOD.

He is walking trouble at any level. That's my point. He has only himself to blame. No one else.

"
But if he shows nothing against the Baa-baas to suggest he's anywhere near his best and STILL gets selected for subsequent matches, then that would be a disgrace and any claims from the coaching setup that they pick players on form will clearly be bogus."

I am assuming your statement would also mean to include a good number of others in the squad - many of whom have given lack lustre performances and STILL continue to get selected, Mike Phillips, Huw Bennett to name just two and while we're discussing current form, Jamie Roberts hasn't exactly shone for Wales this season has he? JEEZ!!Give the guy a break, hope he plays a blinder on Saturday because we sure as hell can't afford to be picky.

I'm glad the Western Mail no longer pick the team. Gatland is merely emphasising this.

Henson and Davis together seems a great pairing - Let's give them a chance. People should stop seeing Henson as a standout alone - when on the field he is very much a lynch pin and organiser for the midfield and backs in general.

Paddy: yes, my statement would include all three of the players you mention.