World class players - top 3 in the world in each position

First topic message reminder :

I know this is completely subjective but I thought it would be interesting to get peoples views on who they believe the top players world wide are following the RWC. 'World class' is now widely considered as the top 3 players in the world in each position.

For me these are the players world wide who I would most want in my starting XV if I was picking a side to play for my mortgage.

1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili
2.Coles, Bismark, Best
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith

Honorable mentions:

Shota Horie - A hooker who can hook, what a revelation it was!
Stephen Moore
Agustin Creevy
Sekope Kepu
Davit Zirkashvili - A rock in the Georgia scrum
Jonny Gray
Leone Nakarawa
Michael Leitch
Francois Louw
Sam Warburton - I haven't been a huge fan in the past as I felt he lacked consistency. This RWC he was excellent though.
Talupe Faletau
Amanaki Mafi - A wrecking ball in attack.
Greg Laidlaw - Another player who I haven't rated too highly in the past that really impressed me.
Beauden Barrett
Sonny Bill Williams
Jonathan Joseph
DTH Van Der Merwe
Santiago Cordero - A wonderful broken play runner.
Ayumu Gorumara - Yet another surprise package in that impressive Japan side.

Injury considerations - guys who played in the RWC but suffered injury during I have considered as they had a chance to prove recently prove themselves prior to injury. Those out long term I have not considered however. The only player who I would have picked but didn't due to this was Cruden.

As for recent retirements, I have chosen to include the likes of POC, Carter, Nonu and Conrad Smith who have just retired from Internationals.

Some positions were far easier than others for me with open side and number 8 for instance having three clear standouts. Blind side I will admit to bodging a bit but I rate O'Brien and Gorgodze very highly so have fitted them in there. Hooker was also a position of strength with 6 players standing out for me.

Scrum half was a real struggle with Aaron Smith way ahead of the competition IMO. Genia has found form once again to claim a place there and Fourie Du Preez pulled the strings well enough to take the other spot.

Loose head I also struggled with. Ayerza and Sio were standouts but after that I didn't feel many threw their hands up. McGrath was really impressive for Ireland but didn't start - I thought Healy ahead of him was solid but nothing like his swashbuckling best. In the end I plumped for Mikheil Nariashvili as I felt he was the rock (along with Kirkashvili) that an ever impressive Georgia scrum was built around.

Smith doesn't get the attention that Nonu, SBW or the likes get but he is the gel in that backline. His performances whilst maybe not headline grabbing are always consistently of the highest and he just keeps producing them.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili  - Zirakishvilli
2.Coles, Bismark, Best - ???
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks    - ???
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones - Nakarawa Grey
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock - Etzabeth
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze - Fardy
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles - Falatau Mafi

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez - Tanaka Davies
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana - Mitchell
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana -  Henshaw De Allande
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff - Wyles DTH
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith - Nanai Williams Hogg


Based on RWC...

I'd still have Sanchez in among it at 10 and personally I was disappointed with Nadolo, Folau and Ben Smith and would have Lydiate over SOB

Sanchez is a good call, but who does he replace? all 3 have been good at this RWC.

Nadolo plays a different game for Fiji, but is very much the go to ball carrier and leader, even if it is from 12. I couldn't really find another option playing well tbh.

Ben Smith has had an awful RWC, he's been woefull, and Folau hasn't lit the stage up either, but in Folau's case, has any fullback excelled enough to oust him?

Ben Smith had an awful WC? I can't agree with that at all.

Fanster wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili  - Zirakishvilli
2.Coles, Bismark, Best - ???
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks    - ???
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones - Nakarawa Grey
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock - Etzabeth
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze - Fardy
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles - Falatau Mafi

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez - Tanaka Davies
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana - Mitchell
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana -  Henshaw De Allande
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff - Wyles DTH
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith - Nanai Williams Hogg


Based on RWC...

I'd still have Sanchez in among it at 10 and personally I was disappointed with Nadolo, Folau and Ben Smith and would have Lydiate over SOB

Sanchez is a good call, but who does he replace? all 3 have been good at this RWC.

Nadolo plays a different game for Fiji, but is very much the go to ball carrier and leader, even if it is from 12. I couldn't really find another option playing well tbh.

Ben Smith has had an awful RWC, he's been woefull, and Folau hasn't lit the stage up either, but in Folau's case, has any fullback excelled enough to oust him?

Tuculet look good for Argentina but you're right there wasnt won stand out XV, lots of good solid performances.

king_carlos wrote:

Fanster wrote:
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph

Is that Joseph replacing Conrad Smith there Fanster?

If so it's a bold call! Motivated by his retirement or did you feel his performances weren't as strong at the World Cup?

Personally I thought he was once again excellent pulling the strings for some fantastic backs around him.

It is bold, and I get it, Smith has been a star for years, however even with the superstars and monsters around him in Savea, Nonu etc, he's been a yard off the pace for me. He has still been decent, but look at what Milner Skudder, Nonu and Savea have done, it's all individual brilliance, they've not been running through lines untouched because of Smith, whereas in the past it's been the case.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili  - Zirakishvilli
2.Coles, Bismark, Best - ???
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks    - ???
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones - Nakarawa Grey
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock - Etzabeth
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze - Fardy
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles - Falatau Mafi

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez - Tanaka Davies
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana - Mitchell
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana -  Henshaw De Allande
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff - Wyles DTH
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith - Nanai Williams Hogg


Based on RWC...

I'd still have Sanchez in among it at 10 and personally I was disappointed with Nadolo, Folau and Ben Smith and would have Lydiate over SOB

Sanchez is a good call, but who does he replace? all 3 have been good at this RWC.

Nadolo plays a different game for Fiji, but is very much the go to ball carrier and leader, even if it is from 12. I couldn't really find another option playing well tbh.

Ben Smith has had an awful RWC, he's been woefull, and Folau hasn't lit the stage up either, but in Folau's case, has any fullback excelled enough to oust him?

Tuculet look good for Argentina but you're right there wasnt won stand out XV, lots of good solid performances.

Nanai for me has probably been the best FB in the RWC, Hoggs been ok, Kearney good until Argentina, which he has to be judged a bit for being so poor in that game. Tuculet gets nothing for leaving Welsh rugby lol, but seriously he's been good, would you play him ahead of Folau, Hogg or Nanai? I wouldn't.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ben Smith had an awful WC? I can't agree with that at all.

He has in the sense when he's played against decent opposition (Arg, SA, Aus) he's been particularly average, the other performances hardly count when the All Blacks are under no pressure and are playing off a stupidly one sided platform.

Awful or average lol?

It's amazing NZ managed to walk the WC with all these out of form players

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Awful or average lol?

It's amazing NZ managed to walk the WC with all these out of form players

Average for Ben Smith is woefull for his standard don't you think.

Who said the rest of the team were bad?

Ben and Conrad Smith havn't been the standard they have previously, however Nonu has played his best rugby ever, Savea has been a monster, Milner Skudder a good intro to the team, Carter has got better throughout despite not shining, and Smith has been the worlds form 9.

Why take things so personally?

I would still take Conrad Smith over any and every 13 playing the game at the moment, he may not set world alight with individual brilliance like the others but he just makes that back line tick and run like it does.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I would still take Conrad Smith over any and every 13 playing the game at the moment, he may not set world alight with individual brilliance like the others but he just makes that back line tick and run like it does.

Thats my point, he has always been the creator in the backline, but rewatch the kiwi tries, he does the basics well, but all the great play from wings and Nonu has been through individual brilliance, and not through Smiths play. I think it's part of the reason Ben Smith has struggled too.

As a neutral observer I thought Ben Smith had an excellent tournament. He was picked as MOTM against SA so it's complete garbage that he's been "average". A lot of pundits picked him in their XV of the tournament.
For me he is the best full back in the world by a distance.

Yeah I am also a little surprised to see that Ben Smith has been criticised for his RWC performances. Thought that he was very solid and certainly the best 15 in the tournament. That said, I thought that Spedding did very well in an awful French team.

Brown was probably better than Smith - I didn't tend to notice Smith much to be honest.

eirebilly wrote:Yeah I am also a little surprised to see that Ben Smith has been criticised for his RWC performances. Thought that he was very solid and certainly the best 15 in the tournament. That said, I thought that Spedding did very well in an awful French team.

Absolutely - Ben Smith was far and away the best in the tournament.

Spedding was good and his strength in riding the tackle is impressive, but I never got the sense of 'behold, danger awaits' when he got the ball.

Brown was excellent against Fiji but faded systematically through the tournament. In the quarter-finals I didn't even notice him on the pitch.

Hogg interspersed moments of sheer brilliance with moments of sheer stupidity. For example, his break against USA was gorgeous, then his pass to the back of Visser's feet was really not. He did at least have the grace to apologise about it afterwards, but that should have been a try. I also think his dive against South Africa didn't help him in winning a righteous penalty in the final minutes against Australia - if a player hits you very late, it doesn't help that you simulated a late hit earlier in the tournament.

Similarly Kearney had a relatively quiet tournament, although he was great against France.

For me, it isn't so much that Ben Smith was the best by default (with all other candidates showing weakness in large or small patches), even though this is probably the case) - I think Smith was brilliant throughout the tournament, improving to a pinnacle in the final.

Agree with the majority, Smith had an excellent WC.

theslosty wrote:As a neutral observer I thought Ben Smith had an excellent tournament. He was picked as MOTM against SA so it's complete garbage that he's been "average". A lot of pundits picked him in their XV of the tournament.
For me he is the best full back in the world by a distance.

Thats the issue, pundits aren't the absolute truth, they aren't the authority and should not be your opinion.

Both Smiths have been poor by their standards, however the cliches are still being touted out that have been for a number of years...

It's cool to 'recognise' Conrads ability to get others playing well, despite a lot of people not actually knowing what he does well and not, he's a legend and up there with BOD as one of the best 13's ever, it's not too harsh to criticise him when in poor form.

I'd take Nanai Williams over Ben Smith, and Folau, and then Hogg for their RWC form. In general and at their best Smith is up there with Folau tho.

Smith is better than Folau imo. Folau is a great attcking threat but has next to no kicking game, I don't see how you can the best FB around with no kicking game.

Smith was the best FB in the WC by a distance. I'd probably then say the Japanese 15 and Brown battle it out for the 2 and 3 position. Folau had a very quiet WC and Hogg struggled at times also.

Conrad Smith walks the 13 spot though. His defence, awareness, always making yards and ability to make space for others was as always, exceptional.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Smith is better than Folau imo. Folau is a great attcking threat but has next to no kicking game, I don't see how you can the best FB around with no kicking game.

Smith was the best FB in the WC by a distance. I'd probably then say the Japanese 15 and Brown battle it out for the 2 and 3 position. Folau had a very quiet WC and Hogg struggled at times also.

Conrad Smith walks the 13 spot though. His defence, awareness, always making yards and ability to make space for others was as always, exceptional.

By a distance? He dropped balls, went defencively missing, offered little going forward and had a nightmare v Aus, he wasn't anywhere near his high standards.

Where I agree the general 15 play hasn't been outstanding, Folau is by far the best of a bad bunch, his kicking game is ok, not world class but noone kicks directly to him because he beats the first man every time. Hogg has had to take the mantle of saviour of Scotlands back play against the bigger teams, but he was still class.

Nanai Williams was the stand out FB IMO, however I would select Folau over him in a world XV.

[quote="Sgt_Pooly"]Smith is better than Folau imo. Folau is a great attcking threat but has next to no kicking game, I don't see how you can the best FB around with no kicking game.

Smith was the best FB in the WC by a distance. I'd probably then say the Japanese 15 and Brown battle it out for the 2 and 3 position. Folau had a very quiet WC and Hogg struggled at times also.

So your putting together a world XV to play against a Mars XV and they both start?

[quote="Sgt_Pooly"]Smith is better than Folau imo. Folau is a great attcking threat but has next to no kicking game, I don't see how you can the best FB around with no kicking game.

Smith was the best FB in the WC by a distance. I'd probably then say the Japanese 15 and Brown battle it out for the 2 and 3 position. Folau had a very quiet WC and Hogg struggled at times also.

So your putting together a world XV to play against a Mars XV and they both start?

Are they currently the best players in their position? Without question.

I don't understand how you can suggest Smith had a poor WC and Folau was impressive?!?!

Folau has a poor kicking game, a FB has to be able to kick imo. He's a fantastic open field runner (despite not showing it in the WC) but not a complete player like Smith.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Are they currently the best players in their position? Without question.

I don't understand how you can suggest Smith had a poor WC and Folau was impressive?!?!

Folau has a poor kicking game, a FB has to be able to kick imo. He's a fantastic open field runner (despite not showing it in the WC) but not a complete player like Smith.

I never said Folau had a good RWC, I stated Nanai Williams was the form FB, however Folau still presented himself as a weapon, and thats why I would favour him over Nanai, then look at Hogg and Smith.

Conrad was nowehre near his standard, and If I were to chose a 13 right now Joseph would be my choice, given injuries, Kriel is still making mistakes, and Kuridrani isn't all that great IMO

-

Smith was still excellent, even at 80% he's the best 13 about by a distance.

Agree on Kriel & Kurindrani, the latter has hands like shovels.

TNW wouldn't make a top 5 FB from the WC for me. He's decent, no more.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Smith was still excellent, even at 80% he's the best 13 about by a distance.

Agree on Kriel & Kurindrani, the latter has hands like shovels.

TNW wouldn't make a top 5 FB from the WC for me. He's decent, no more.

Decent? He was electric!! Everything he touched went well, it's just a shame he didnt have a functioning backline ahead of him.

Conrad at his very best was up there with BOD, but this tournament wasn't him anywhere near his best, infact i'd say it was 12 months past, Carter started slow but had an upward curve as it went on, Smith did the opposite.

Is there another TNW as the one I seen was nothing past ok. He'd be behind a myriad of other better options that performed at a much higher standard.

Probably better to agree to disagree.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is there another TNW as the one I seen was nothing past ok. He'd be behind a myriad of other better options that performed at a much higher standard.

Probably better to agree to disagree.

Will do

Have to say though, it is nice to debate with a gent, and knowledgable poster, too often on here do people scream WUM, or act as one, I didn't necesarily agree with all you said, although I think we see a few things similarly, it is enjoyable hearing some truly intuitive and thought provoking opinions!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ben Smith had an awful WC? I can't agree with that at all.

Agree, in fact I'd say he was the best performed Fullback at the tournament. Amazingly contrasting views.

Contrasting views alright.

The game in 2015 has evolved in such a way that all players have to pressure defensive patterns, the points will come later. The only way to create that half break is by way of hard work, Ben Smith was the hardest working fullback in the WC.