Referee's

First topic message reminder :

Please for the love of (insert your own chosen deity) can we leave threads about games alone and post all the stuff about referees,good, bad or indifferent on here.

That way we may be able to discuss rugby games rather than how referee's are biased, rubbish,cheats, ruining your, my, that league.


Cheers

carpet baboon wrote:The reason for the question was more to do with travel, as always working away would ratchet up the cost

Who pays for it at the moment ? We have Welsh refs in Ireland and Irish refs in Wales, who is paying for the logistics now ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Does anyone know how much a professional ref gets paid?

Some of them make extra for international games and European games though, I do not think we could get an exact £.

Think we would need a fair idea of what Owns gets paid for his Pro12 games, for example. If Pro12 were to employ enough full time refs, then all would be expected to be on the same wage, and the wage would have to be high enough to tempt existing officials to take it up full time. I suppose it might be cheaper if Pro12 ran a refs academy, although that would be a long term mission.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Does anyone know how much a professional ref gets paid?

Some of them make extra for international games and European games though, I do not think we could get an exact £.

Think we would need a fair idea of what Owns gets paid for his Pro12 games, for example. If Pro12 were to employ enough full time refs, then all would be expected to be on the same wage, and the wage would have to be high enough to tempt existing officials to take it up full time. I suppose it might be cheaper if Pro12 ran a refs academy, although that would be a long term mission.

I would expect them to get to the same wage, when they hit certain milestones. For example Nigel Owens is an elite referee, so he is paid in the highest bracket, then all the refs should then aspire to that level, the more elite refs the better I say. Though, you all know my opinion on our Nige's reffing. I do not think he should be an elite ref. But that is another discussion.

So starting off X amount.
Fully established Pro12 ref Y amount.
Elite international level ref Z amount.

The better you perform, the better the rewards. Do you think that would be fair. The elite refs then take charge of the higher profile games in the league, like top of the table clashes, derby matches, and playoff games, semi finals and finals ect. Does that sound fair to you ?

Referees have to be employed by their unions, because the unions provide referees for Test matches. So the idea of referees employed by league rather than union doesn't really work.

Does anyone have a favourite bun?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Does anyone know how much a professional ref gets paid?

Some of them make extra for international games and European games though, I do not think we could get an exact £.

Think we would need a fair idea of what Owns gets paid for his Pro12 games, for example. If Pro12 were to employ enough full time refs, then all would be expected to be on the same wage, and the wage would have to be high enough to tempt existing officials to take it up full time. I suppose it might be cheaper if Pro12 ran a refs academy, although that would be a long term mission.

I would expect them to get to the same wage, when they hit certain milestones. For example Nigel Owens is an elite referee, so he is paid in the highest bracket, then all the refs should then aspire to that level, the more elite refs the better I say. Though, you all know my opinion on our Nige's reffing. I do not think he should be an elite ref. But that is another discussion.

So starting off X amount.
Fully established Pro12 ref Y amount.
Elite international level ref Z amount.

The better you perform, the better the rewards. Do you think that would be fair. The elite refs then take charge of the higher profile games in the league, like top of the table clashes, derby matches, and playoff games, semi finals and finals ect.  Does that sound fair to you ?

Yes, it seems fair, but I'm not convinced by the Elite tag. By that I mean, I think all Pro12 refs should be on the same wage once they're qualified to ref a game. Not just mere assistants, and then the best of those earn the extra by reffing the knock outs, or perhaps European or Test level games.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Referees have to be employed by their unions, because the unions provide referees for Test matches. So the idea of referees employed by league rather than union doesn't really work.

Does anyone have a favourite bun?

Choux bun. Fresh cream, and covered in chocolate

Fair point about the Test matches, but I don't think it would be impossible to work out a solution, because I don't think it would be hugely different than what we have now. Unions could still pay the refs. Just that the refs are all trained and pooled together in Pro12.

True enough.

Good bun choice.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:True enough.

Good bun choice.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I Know, LD. Might be as many as 6 of you. Maybe as much as 20. I suppose that isn't enough to qualify as mass hysteria. Rules out the water as well, methinks. Do you all drink in the same pub?

Why ? Why the sarcasm ? Why ruin a perfectly good debate by turning it into a bun fight ? I want to talk about referees and how we think the situation could be improved, you just want to take the p1ss as usual.

Because I can't take your claim seriously. The evidence contradicts your claim. I can also understand why fans might walk out on Ospreys and Cardiff this season. They haven't exactly lit up the league, have they? Although Ospreys will get back on track no doubt.

You should write to the scarlets and tell them they have no evidence. Do you take their claims of poor refereeing seriously?

If you believe Chunky that asking for clarification means refs are poor then there are no good refs anywhere.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I Know, LD. Might be as many as 6 of you. Maybe as much as 20. I suppose that isn't enough to qualify as mass hysteria. Rules out the water as well, methinks. Do you all drink in the same pub?

Why ? Why the sarcasm ? Why ruin a perfectly good debate by turning it into a bun fight ? I want to talk about referees and how we think the situation could be improved, you just want to take the p1ss as usual.

Because I can't take your claim seriously. The evidence contradicts your claim. I can also understand why fans might walk out on Ospreys and Cardiff this season. They haven't exactly lit up the league, have they? Although Ospreys will get back on track no doubt.

You should write to the scarlets and tell them they have no evidence. Do you take their claims of poor refereeing seriously?

What do Scarlets have evidence for? They want clarification. That's as much as I know.

I haven't said that refs don't make mistakes. They do, and in all leagues. What I have said is that the evidence, increase in attendance, contradicts the claim that fans are walking away to never return.

Originally posted by Walesonline Walesonline wrote:


The Scarlets have put together a video compilation to send to Guinness Pro12 chiefs, airing their concerns over the refereeing of last weekend’s clash with Leinster.




They were unhappy with the way Welsh official Leighton Hodges handled the game in Dublin as they went down to their first defeat of the season, following six straight wins.




In particular, they had issues over how he ruled the ruck, the penalising of Jake Ball on a couple of occasions and on one of their players being taken out off the ball for Leinster’s try from Ian Madigan which proved crucial in the hosts’ 19-15 win.




They have now sent footage of the incidents they are concerned about away to Pro12 referees chief Ed Morrison and WRU refs boss Nigel Whitehouse in an attempt to seek some clarification.




“We are going through a process, as we do after every game,” said head coach Wayne Pivac.




“You can have an opinion, but you have to be able to back it up with facts and video and that’s what we have done.




“We will send some video away and we are just asking for clarification, so if we are in those positions going forward hopefully the outcomes are a bit more favourable.




“Ed Morrison is the top of the referees in the Pro12 and we’ve got Nigel Whitehouse for our local officials.




“So we are sending it through to Ed and also Nigel in this case. They will both get the information. It’s really just clarification going forward. We can’t do anything about last weekend and you’ve just got to move on.




“We don’t go silly. It has to be clear and obvious. We don’t want to waste the referee’s time or our time. It’s just things that we feel were clearly missed.




“It might be the referee, it might be an assistant referee or a TMO. There are a few things where we felt we were a little bit hard done by.”




Detailing the areas of concern, Pivac said: “For six games, the breakdowns have been refereed a certain way.




“When you get in good positions over the ball, the onus is on the ball-carrier to release. That’s my personal view.




“When players are in good positions and they have been in those positions all season it’s hard not to try and win the ball for your team.”




Pivac also highlighted the treatment of bearded Wales lock Jake Ball, who appeared to the victim of mistaken identity with his sin-binning.




“I don’t think Jake was involved in any collapsing of a maul, yet he got a yellow card, and then he had a clean-out situation which was legal,” he said.




“The referee even mentioned that he used his arm, but then for some reason penalised him.




“If that had been a second yellow, he would have done nothing wrong in the entire match and been red carded and we would have been down to 14 players. You have got to get those things right.




“Anything like that where we think there is a discrepancy, we have got to do our duty and put it through so that, hopefully, if there has been a mistake made it doesn’t get made in the future.”




The standard of refereeing in the Pro12 is a consistent issue for fans, so how does Pivac feel things have shaped up overall on that front this season?




“I think there are some very good referees,” said the Kiwi coach.




“I think we missed some of the best referees with the World Cup being on, obviously. That’s the same all around the world and it’s a challenge.




“Everyone’s on the same page. What Ed Morrison and Nigel Whitehouse want to do is have quality refereeing and that’s what we want.




“I think part of the process of getting it right is feedback from coaches and then the referees feeding back to us what they think once we’ve had a good luck in the cold light of day at some of these potential issues.




“I think the system we have got is a really good one and it can only help in developing referees if everyone comes on board and uses it the right way.”

That sounds to me as if the feedback they have sent to Ed Morrison and Nigel Whitehouse is part of some process to do with improving the officiating and working towards standardised interpretations rather that any complaint about a specific official.

2ndtimeround wrote:That sounds to me as if the feedback they have sent to Ed Morrison and Nigel Whitehouse is part of some process to do with improving the officiating and working towards standardised interpretations rather that any complaint about a specific official.

Really? It reads to me that they are livid with Leighton Hodges' pathetic performance, and want to give it a public airing.

Didn't watch the whole Leinster-Scarlets game, was Hodges performance worse than Dudley Philips in the Dragons-Ulster game? For me it doesn't seem possible. That's how bad Dudley was.

VinceWLB wrote:Didn't watch the whole Leinster-Scarlets game, was Hodges performance worse than Dudley Philips in the Dragons-Ulster game? For me it doesn't seem possible. That's how bad Dudley was.

Gary Conway
Leighton Hodges
Dudley Phillips

have, in the last 2/3 weeks given refereeing performances that should shame rugby union. They have been beyond unacceptable. This is pro sport, with barely amateur standard officiating.

The Pro12 is an utter rank decomposing turd of a competition

Stop watching it then. You won't fing much difference in refs elsewhere though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop watching it then. You won't fing much difference in refs elsewhere though.

I don't get to watch my team if I stop watching it. I have to watch this lame turd.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop watching it then. You won't fing much difference in refs elsewhere though.

I don't get to watch my team if I stop watching it. I have to watch this lame turd.

Bit harsh. Cardiff aren't that bad.

They are.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop watching it then. You won't fing much difference in refs elsewhere though.

I don't get to watch my team if I stop watching it. I have to watch this lame turd.

Bit harsh. Cardiff aren't that bad.

I don't get it?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop watching it then. You won't fing much difference in refs elsewhere though.

I don't get to watch my team if I stop watching it. I have to watch this lame turd.

They ve only been around 12 years or so you cant be that attached surely. Plus if the leagues dead so are Cardiff so may as well jump now.

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In this framework would we still refs taking charge on "home" soil?

If they are fully professional and impartial then that should not be an issue. Refs who ref people who are from the same organisation is my issue, their nationality isn't, as long as they are good enough I could not give two hoots where they came from. At least they would all have just one organisation sanctioning things and pushing the same mandates and protocols.

The reason for the question was more to do with travel, as always working away would ratchet up the cost

Ffwc me, anIrishman flirting with one of the central flaws in the PrO'12. Tin hatted conspiracy stuff there Baboon, da iawn.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop watching it then. You won't fing much difference in refs elsewhere though.

I don't get to watch my team if I stop watching it. I have to watch this lame turd.

They ve only been around 12 years or so you cant be that attached surely. Plus if the leagues dead so are Cardiff so may as well jump now.

What's this Cardiff thing?

I just went with it. who do you support, just swap the names round.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just went with it. who do you support, just swap the names round.

Ah I see, your attention to detail at it's usual standard.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just went with it. who do you support, just swap the names round.

Ah I see, your attention to detail at it's usual standard.

Why because I don't remember who everyone supports on here? Same point stands the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Stone Motif wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In this framework would we still refs taking charge on "home" soil?

If they are fully professional and impartial then that should not be an issue. Refs who ref people who are from the same organisation is my issue, their nationality isn't, as long as they are good enough I could not give two hoots where they came from. At least they would all have just one organisation sanctioning things and pushing the same mandates and protocols.

The reason for the question was more to do with travel, as always working away would ratchet up the cost

 Ffwc me, anIrishman flirting with one of the central flaws in the PrO'12. Tin hatted conspiracy stuff there Baboon, da iawn.

Yeah OK cheers.?
Just looking for solutions that would be workable.

No 7&1/2 wrote: the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Well,as you know I disagree with that. It would be the best thing to NH rugby if that happenned.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Well,as you know I disagree with that. It would be the best thing to NH rugby if that happenned.

Ok chunky in all honesty if the pro12 goes what do you want in its place?

Who do you support chunky?

carpet baboon wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In this framework would we still refs taking charge on "home" soil?

If they are fully professional and impartial then that should not be an issue. Refs who ref people who are from the same organisation is my issue, their nationality isn't, as long as they are good enough I could not give two hoots where they came from. At least they would all have just one organisation sanctioning things and pushing the same mandates and protocols.

The reason for the question was more to do with travel, as always working away would ratchet up the cost

 Ffwc me, anIrishman flirting with one of the central flaws in the PrO'12. Tin hatted conspiracy stuff there Baboon, da iawn.

Yeah OK cheers.?
Just looking for solutions that would be workable.

The costs of travel massively hamstring the ability of the PrO'12 to compete with it's neighbours full stop. There isn't a workable solution to that.

Stone Motif wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In this framework would we still refs taking charge on "home" soil?

If they are fully professional and impartial then that should not be an issue. Refs who ref people who are from the same organisation is my issue, their nationality isn't, as long as they are good enough I could not give two hoots where they came from. At least they would all have just one organisation sanctioning things and pushing the same mandates and protocols.

The reason for the question was more to do with travel, as always working away would ratchet up the cost

 Ffwc me, anIrishman flirting with one of the central flaws in the PrO'12. Tin hatted conspiracy stuff there Baboon, da iawn.

Yeah OK cheers.?
Just looking for solutions that would be workable.

The costs of travel massively hamstring the ability of the PrO'12 to compete with it's neighbours full stop. There isn't a workable solution to that.

So what would you like in its place?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who do you support chunky?

Whoever the first class team in Carmarthenshire is that plays in Llanelli in red.

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Well,as you know I disagree with that. It would be the best thing to NH rugby if that happenned.

Ok chunky in all honesty if the pro12 goes what do you want in its place?

Check the B&I league thread. all the answers are in there.

Stone Motif wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In this framework would we still refs taking charge on "home" soil?

If they are fully professional and impartial then that should not be an issue. Refs who ref people who are from the same organisation is my issue, their nationality isn't, as long as they are good enough I could not give two hoots where they came from. At least they would all have just one organisation sanctioning things and pushing the same mandates and protocols.

The reason for the question was more to do with travel, as always working away would ratchet up the cost

 Ffwc me, anIrishman flirting with one of the central flaws in the PrO'12. Tin hatted conspiracy stuff there Baboon, da iawn.

Yeah OK cheers.?
Just looking for solutions that would be workable.

The costs of travel massively hamstring the ability of the PrO'12 to compete with it's neighbours full stop. There isn't a workable solution to that.

The costs of travel are nothing in comparison to the deals that should have been better negotiated with Sky and to a lesser extent Guinness.

Munchkin wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Not going to happen, nor should it. Decisions are a part of discussing the events of the game.

They are, but this isn't about simply discussing officials decisions in a game thread. In fact it's about some destroying game threads, using those threads as a conduit to vent their spite. This needs to stop, and this thread is a way of doing that. It should happen, but I doubt it will.

I fully understand now.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Well,as you know I disagree with that. It would be the best thing to NH rugby if that happenned.

Ok chunky in all honesty if the pro12 goes what do you want in its place?

Check the B&I league thread. all the answers are in there.

Can you put a link for that thread as I can't be arsed to find it.

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Well,as you know I disagree with that. It would be the best thing to NH rugby if that happenned.

Ok chunky in all honesty if the pro12 goes what do you want in its place?

Check the B&I league thread. all the answers are in there.

Can you put a link for that thread as I can't be arsed to find it.

I think it's here.

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-leagu

I'm hitting the hay now though so can't reply, as my wife gave birth to our second child today and I've been up for many hours. Laterz.

Congratulations Chunky - though it is hard to think you actually have a life outside of these forums sometimes.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: the Pro 12 dies the clubs in it will struggle. Good job it isn't.

Well,as you know I disagree with that. It would be the best thing to NH rugby if that happenned.

Ok chunky in all honesty if the pro12 goes what do you want in its place?

Check the B&I league thread. all the answers are in there.

Can you put a link for that thread as I can't be arsed to find it.

I think it's here.

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-leagu

I'm hitting the hay now though so can't reply, as my wife gave birth to our second child today and I've been up for many hours. Laterz.

Cheers.
And congratulations

Chunky Norwich wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:That sounds to me as if the feedback they have sent to Ed Morrison and Nigel Whitehouse is part of some process to do with improving the officiating and working towards standardised interpretations rather that any complaint about a specific official.

Really? It reads to me that they are livid with Leighton Hodges' pathetic performance, and want to give it a public airing.

Nowhere in the actual quotes does it mention anyone's performance as been pathetic but if you look at the last comment in bold it quite clearly says they are trying to use a process that has been put in place to help develop the consistency and standard of the officiating.

I do not get why people are going on about travel costs and logistics, does it really cost that much to get around the British Isles these days ? Come on, the English have Exeter and Newcastle in the AP. They are just as far apart as Cardiff to Glasgow. In fact, Dublin is a lot closer to Cardiff than Exeter is to Newcastle. Come on in this day and age, travel should not be an issue.

This traveling for refs is a bit of a lame argument for me. Also the clubs should not have the issue with traveling either.

Although going to Italy twice a year must be a bit of a bind though....

Scottrf wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Not going to happen, nor should it. Decisions are a part of discussing the events of the game.

They are, but this isn't about simply discussing officials decisions in a game thread. In fact it's about some destroying game threads, using those threads as a conduit to vent their spite. This needs to stop, and this thread is a way of doing that. It should happen, but I doubt it will.

I fully understand now.

Yep, the amount of moaning is ridiculous, but not bad if there is at least a dedicated thread that they can vent spleen on. A therapy thread

I'm wondering how much those calling for professional/neutral referees are prepared to pay?

At the moment the PRO12 pay officials' "expenses" to games.
The rates are of the order of:
Referee ~ £600 (inc. flights and accommodation)
1st Assistant and Back-up ref ~ £250
2nd Assistant ~ £250
4th Official ~ £100
TMO ~ £100
Approximate game expenses £1,300 in total. So season expenses x 135 games = £175,000

If the officials were paid professionals by the League and were not resident, each would cost at least £2,500 per game, so that would be a whopping £1.7 million per year!

These costs would significantly disadvantage the Pro12 in comparison to the English and French Leagues - is that really what those calling for fully professional and neutral referees want?

The Great Aukster wrote:I'm wondering how much those calling for professional/neutral referees are prepared to pay?

At the moment the PRO12 pay officials' "expenses" to games.
The rates are of the order of:
Referee ~ £600 (inc. flights and accommodation)
1st Assistant and Back-up ref ~ £250
2nd Assistant ~ £250
4th Official ~ £100
TMO ~ £100
Approximate game expenses £1,300 in total. So season expenses x 135 games = £175,000

If the officials were paid professionals by the League and were not resident, each would cost at least £2,500 per game, so that would be a whopping £1.7 million per year!

These costs would significantly disadvantage the Pro12 in comparison to the English and French Leagues - is that really what those calling for fully professional and neutral referees want?

And how much exactly does the league make in TV revenue each season?
Professional officials would improve the flow and understanding of the game by removing individual interpretation of rules and thereby improve the product been sold to the TV companies.
I think your estimate of cost at £2.5k per game per official is a little excessive also, £50k per annum for a full time referee is a realistic proposition to attract the right calibre of individual IMHO, initially just recruiting 6 referee's and 6 TMO's would cost £600k per annum, hardly an excessive amount to ensure quality officiating. Linesmen would still be part time but its the man in the middle and the TMO are the ones making the decisions.

That's actually less than I would have guessed. I would like to know the present costs, and how much a Pro12 ref costs?

If the 4 Unions paid all costs, not taking into account sponsorship, they would pay roughly £141.6k per team. Costly enough. More than £566k each for WRU, and IRFU. That would be before Test and European costs.

Also how much is the Specsavers sponsorship deal worth to the league as that would reduce the true cost, they could even look for a second sponsor for the officials to help fund it further.

2ndtimeround wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:I'm wondering how much those calling for professional/neutral referees are prepared to pay?

At the moment the PRO12 pay officials' "expenses" to games.
The rates are of the order of:
Referee ~ £600 (inc. flights and accommodation)
1st Assistant and Back-up ref ~ £250
2nd Assistant ~ £250
4th Official ~ £100
TMO ~ £100
Approximate game expenses £1,300 in total. So season expenses x 135 games = £175,000

If the officials were paid professionals by the League and were not resident, each would cost at least £2,500 per game, so that would be a whopping £1.7 million per year!

These costs would significantly disadvantage the Pro12 in comparison to the English and French Leagues - is that really what those calling for fully professional and neutral referees want?

And how much exactly does the league make in TV revenue each season?
Professional officials would improve the flow and understanding of the game by removing individual interpretation of rules and thereby improve the product been sold to the TV companies.
I think your estimate of cost at £2.5k per game per official is a little excessive also, £50k per annum for a full time referee is a realistic proposition to attract the right calibre of individual IMHO, initially just recruiting 6 referee's and 6 TMO's would cost £600k per annum, hardly an excessive amount to ensure quality officiating. Linesmen would still be part time but its the man in the middle and the TMO are the ones making the decisions.

Where do these "high calibre of refs" come out from? This argument is a bit like an Italian fan wanting to improve the national team by saying, "well we need to play better players". Saying all this is great, it's another thing to do it.

Also the refs should have little to no impact on the product. The Pro 12 is lucky to have quality refs in Owens and Mitrea but if we look at the Top 14, there really is not one ref you could say is quality. To suggest this problem is exclusive to the Pro 12 is ludicrous. Every fan has issues with refs in the other leagues but they can still go out and support their team.

Have to do it.

Referees*.