Lancaster gone

by Allty Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:14 pm

BBC reports SL resigns

by Allty Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:17 pm

Linky

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/34413505

by GunsGerms Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Saw that too. Its not too much a surprise. I think the Burgess selection must have been a factor but certainly not getting out of their group was always going to be a nail in his coffin.

Still, he definitely brought England forward more than any other manager since SCW in my opinion.

There have been unconfirmed reports that the RFU have made approaches for both Cheika and Schmidt. Neither will leave their posts. Who should England look to now? Jim Mallinder?

by nathan Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:27 pm

I wouldn't trust these reports though, most are probably made up.

Interesting bit from the RFU statement;

"The new head coach will continue to report into the CEO, who will now lead the process for recruitment, beginning immediately."

by SimonofSurrey Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:27 pm

Decent bloke whose departure was as dignified as his entire tenure (despite the views of those Anglophobic knuckledraggers here and elsewhere who cannot bring themselves to write 'England', only 'Ingerland' - usually preceded with 'arrogant'). But he fell short when it mattered and had to go as a result. Before that, however, he did much to put English rugby into a better place than he found it, on and off the pitch. For that we English should remain grateful.

by bluestonevedder Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:33 pm

SimonofSurrey wrote:Decent bloke whose departure was as dignified as his entire tenure (despite the views of those Anglophobic knuckledraggers here and elsewhere who cannot bring themselves to write 'England', only 'Ingerland' - usually preceded with 'arrogant'). But he fell short when it mattered and had to go as a result. Before that, however, he did much to put English rugby into a better place than he found it, on and off the pitch. For that we English should remain grateful.

Completely agree with this.

He's a really decent guy, who clearly loves England and English rugby. He fell short, but his successes shouldn't be overlooked. Even though 2011 looks like the more successful world cup when compared to 2015, I don't think anything could be further from the truth. I've never been more ashamed to be an England fan than after the 2011 world cup. Lancaster has at least got some spirit back in the England jersey. For that I'm hugely thankful.

Selections were his downfall though.

by hugehandoff Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:34 pm

Obviously a genuinely decent person who has done the right thing. At the end of the day he did not deliver and this decision is entirely correct.

But can the RFU actually land a better and more experienced person and will they create the correct structure to assist Englaish rugby?

by TightHEAD Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:37 pm

He had no choice but to stand down really.

Thanks SL, I think you did some good.

by Poorfour Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:40 pm

SimonofSurrey wrote:Decent bloke whose departure was as dignified as his entire tenure (despite the views of those Anglophobic knuckledraggers here and elsewhere who cannot bring themselves to write 'England', only 'Ingerland' - usually preceded with 'arrogant'). But he fell short when it mattered and had to go as a result. Before that, however, he did much to put English rugby into a better place than he found it, on and off the pitch. For that we English should remain grateful.

That's a fair summary. My only nagging doubt is whether the RFU should have found a way to keep him around - with experience of another RWC cycle working with a more seasoned replacement as Head Coach, he could well have developed to the point where he would be worth another shot.

Anyway, he has made his choice. There aren't many obvious successors, certainly not English ones. Of the AP coaches, Ford and McCall have the question mark of the "settlement" over them, O'Shea has ruled himself out, I couldn't see Dai Jones taking it, Saints fans seem to have doubts about Mallinder... who does that leave us with? Rob Baxter, maybe. Or Cockers. There's a mischievous part of me that thinks it should be Deano, if only for the contrast, but I suspect that England will go for an overseas coach. Would Eddie Jones commit to the role? Jake White? Nick Mallett? Brendan Venter?

Whoever they appoint, it's almost more important that they look hard at the wider coaching team and include some strong English candidates to take over the role.

by **Biltong** Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:45 pm

I feel for Lancaster, from what I have seen from him , I liked him, reserved, calm, doesn't hog the lime light like some coaches.

Unfortunately results will bring pressure, calls for his resignation on dismissal etc.

He is a decent man that in my view brought England rugby into an era where although not hugely successful, has made them kick less and play more ball in hand.

Now that the mind set is there, they need a coach who will embrace positive rugby and build the skillset of the England team.

I think Lancaster took it as far as he was capable of.

by SimonofSurrey Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:48 pm

Shaun Edwards?! Does England RU need yet another RL import?

In this case, 100% yes.

by LordDowlais Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:50 pm

What is going to happen with Farrell ? Will he throw his hat into the ring ? From what I have read in the media and on forums like this, he was more or less running the show anyway.

by SneakySideStep Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:55 pm

A good man who did his best. As an international coach he came up short. Sometimes he produced a team who succeeded but never consistently enough.

by TightHEAD Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:56 pm

I'd like Edwards in there somewhere, but I just can't see it happening.

by yappysnap Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:58 pm

It's for the best.

He can be pleased that he's left the English team in a better state then he found it (or so it appears).

But he just didn't have the skill set for a top tier international job.

by nathan Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:What is going to happen with Farrell ? Will he throw his hat into the ring ? From what I have read in the media and on forums like this, he was more or less running the show anyway.

i suspect whoever comes in as head coach will select there own team like lancaster did. I wouldn't read too much into the Farrell thing, it was probably hyped up for our media

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:03 am

No mention of the other coaches in the statement, I really hope they don't stay on after SL has taken the fall for them.

by nathan Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:10 am

yappysnap wrote:No mention of the other coaches in the statement, I really hope they don't stay on after SL has taken the fall for them.

as mentioned above, i suspect it will be the new coaches choice

by LordDowlais Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:12 am

So that is a NO for Farrell then ?

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:12 am

by **George Carlin** Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:14 am

Press conference at 4.30pm today (UK time Very Happy

).

Would seem odd to chop Lancaster but not Pinky and Perky as well.

New broom should sweep clean if they get a good coach who will want to bring his own backroom staff in.

The interesting implication is that they do not have a replacement lined up, but Bomber got hooked anyway.

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:17 am

If he hadn't changed his tactics right before the WC he would still be in the job.

Why on earth change the tactics?

No mention of the other coaches in the statement, I really hope they don't stay on after SL has taken the fall for them.

That's a nightmare scenario Yappy.

by munkian Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:19 am

What next for Ingerland ?

by englandglory4ever Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:20 am

A good man. He tried his best. Couldn't fault him for effort. But that very poor rwc meant he had to go. C'est la vie.

by Welly Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:27 am

Thinking of poss replacements with International head coach experience who are not in International head coach roles.
You have
White
Jones
Deans
Mallett
Kirwan

Would love
Jones

Would be alright with
Deans

Would be meh about
White
Mallett

Would def not want
Kirwan (Just not ready for international job again)

by **George Carlin** Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:36 am

Here's that statement in full:

@LookAtMyShinyBlazerWhatWhat
The Rugby Football Union can confirm that Stuart Lancaster has, by mutual consent, stepped down as England Head Coach.

The decision follows England’s recent Rugby World Cup campaign which saw the team knocked out of the tournament at the pool stages after defeats to Wales and Australia.

Lancaster was appointed full time in April 2012 and guided England to second place in all of the past four Six Nations Championships with one of his notable victories coming against the All Blacks in 2012, one of 28 wins in the 46 Test matches during which he was in charge of England.

Stuart Lancaster said, “I am obviously extremely saddened to finish the way we did in this World Cup and to step down from the role. As I have always said, I ultimately accept and take responsibility for the team's performance and we have not delivered the results we all hoped for during this tournament. I did, however, want to take part in the review to ensure I understood the views of others before making a decision. The reality is that, while many aspects of the review were very positive, we didn’t achieve success on the field when it mattered and we all have to take responsibility for that but me especially as head coach.”

“I took on the role in difficult circumstances and it has been a huge challenge to transition the team with many hurdles along the way. However, I am immensely proud of the development of this team and I know that there is an incredibly strong foundation for them to progress to great things in the future. We have played some excellent rugby and it was always going to be tough to get the right level of experience into them in time for 2015. It is a young group of players with the huge majority available for the Rugby World Cup in Japan in 2019, where I believe their recent experience will make them genuine contenders.”

“I would like to thank the players, coaches, management and everyone at the RFU for their commitment, support and hard work in my time as head coach. But most of all, I would like to thank the England rugby fans, who have always backed us and given us amazing support. The team feels a close connection with everyone across the grassroots game, which has been important to us all.”

Ian Ritchie, RFU CEO added, ''The Rugby World Cup was hugely disappointing for everyone associated with the England team and the subsequent review into the team’s performance was always intended to be extremely comprehensive, which it has been. Stuart has been fully involved and has given feedback as well as the other coaches, players, management and a wide variety of people from around the game. Following the review, Stuart and I met, where we agreed that he should step down as head coach. This was subsequently ratified by the RFU Board.”

“On behalf of all fans of the England team and the RFU I would like to express our gratitude to Stuart for all he has done for England Rugby since taking the role in 2012. Despite the results during this World Cup he has much to be proud of, and has embedded a new group of players that will be representing England for a long time to come. Looking forward, we will leave no stone unturned to ensure England achieves sustained success in the future.”

The new head coach will continue to report into the CEO, who will now lead the process for recruitment, beginning immediately.

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:37 am

Im putting my money on Eddie Jones.

by nlpnlp Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:44 am

As people say a decent enough man, but totally out of his depth as a top level international coach. Whenever we got to crunch games we came up short - Wales 2013, France 2014, Ireland 2015. France 2015 (despite the win we leaked 35 points), Wales 2015 world cup and Australia 2015 world cup.

Did he improve the discipline of the side - on the pitch we were repeatedly penalised, off it we still had the likes of Care, Manu, etc misbehaving.

All this guff about "Carry them home", "Playing for the shirt", etc. Did our players play with more 'pride' than the kilted kiwis who turned out for Scotland in the world cup?

I don't wish to sound too harsh on Lancaster, but to me he achieved very little. The only positive legacy I can see is that one or two young players like Launchbury and Nowell have had an opportunity. I don't see much else of the Lancaster regime or squad remaining. As Walter Benjamin said, "History is written by the victors" - Lancaster is a looser.

by lostinwales Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:47 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:If he hadn't changed his tactics right before the WC he would still be in the job.

Why on earth change the tactics?

No mention of the other coaches in the statement, I really hope they don't stay on after SL has taken the fall for them.

That's a nightmare scenario Yappy.

That was the big problem for me. 2nd being playing guys who were not fit. Burgess was ultimately just a sideshow that distracted from the main event.

by Welly Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:47 am

If England did want to go for a unproven International head coach (For what ever reason) Dave Rennie would be a good shout.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:48 am

He did bring through a lot of players, he does have the highest win % since Woodward. The thing with losing big games is that is any game we don't win. On the whole he did well but as Geordie said the change in tactics looks a pretty bad mistake (and the same one Johnson made).

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:58 am

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If he hadn't changed his tactics right before the WC he would still be in the job.

Why on earth change the tactics?

No mention of the other coaches in the statement, I really hope they don't stay on after SL has taken the fall for them.

That's a nightmare scenario Yappy.

That was the big problem for me. 2nd being playing guys who were not fit. Burgess was ultimately just a sideshow that distracted from the main event.

Absolutely...its quite clear now that quite a number of players were injured or still trying to get fit and should have not even been at the WC.

by majesticimperialman Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:06 am

I think it was a fore gone conclusion that he would stand down. I am surprised that nothing has been said about his back room staff, Catt Farrell and Roundtree.

He did do a lot of good though in the short time he was in charge. Brought a lot of player's into the team laid down rules that should not be crossed at any time.

I guess it is now "who" will ( A ) take the job? ( B ) "who" will wan't the job? and ( c ) "who" will be good enough to suit not only the fans, but the England team?

Who ever does take the job will be more under the spot light that any other coach. In the 6ns at least.

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:44 am

I think if Lancaster is serious about coaching he should go back to club rugby and maybe take on the management of a championship club and really work on turning them round and making them a premiership side.

Learn his trade.

by Exiledinborders Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:16 am

Poorfour wrote:
SimonofSurrey wrote:Decent bloke whose departure was as dignified as his entire tenure (despite the views of those Anglophobic knuckledraggers here and elsewhere who cannot bring themselves to write 'England', only 'Ingerland' - usually preceded with 'arrogant'). But he fell short when it mattered and had to go as a result. Before that, however, he did much to put English rugby into a better place than he found it, on and off the pitch. For that we English should remain grateful.

That's a fair summary. My only nagging doubt is whether the RFU should have found a way to keep him around - with experience of another RWC cycle working with a more seasoned replacement as Head Coach, he could well have developed to the point where he would be worth another shot.

Anyway, he has made his choice. There aren't many obvious successors, certainly not English ones. Of the AP coaches, Ford and McCall have the question mark of the "settlement" over them, O'Shea has ruled himself out, I couldn't see Dai Jones taking it, Saints fans seem to have doubts about Mallinder... who does that leave us with? Rob Baxter, maybe. Or Cockers. There's a mischievous part of me that thinks it should be Deano, if only for the contrast, but I suspect that England will go for an overseas coach. Would Eddie Jones commit to the role? Jake White? Nick Mallett? Brendan Venter?

Whoever they appoint, it's almost more important that they look hard at the wider coaching team and include some strong English candidates to take over the role.

How have Ford or McCall got the question mark of the "settlement" over them? They are coaches. They do not run the clubs.

If they go for an AP coach the standouts is McCall.

by Poorfour Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:55 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
How have Ford or McCall got the question mark of the "settlement" over them? They are coaches. They do not run the clubs.

If they go for an AP coach the standouts is McCall.

Because the success they have achieved may have been achieved with a squad that was over-resourced compared to their opposition. If it wasn't a level playing field, then how much was down to the coach?

by Bathman_in_London Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:58 am

On the same day Josh Lewsey resigns from the WRU, coincidence?

by IanBru Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:04 am

I think it's a shame, and during the lead-up to this I always felt that England should keep hold of Lancaster and ditch Rowntree and Farrell Sr. like bad habits.

However, if you were to ask me if I'd want Stuart Lancaster to coach Scotland, my answer would inevitably be 'no'.

by nathan Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:06 am

I still don't think Lancaster is a bad coach, it's just the change of tactics that annoyed me.

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:32 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:On the same day Josh Lewsey resigns from the WRU, coincidence?

What does he actually do there though?

As far as I'm aware he's never coached a team at any level. Even Jason Robinson has more experience.

by Guest Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:57 am

Welly wrote: If England did want to go for a unproven International head coach (For what ever reason) Dave Rennie would be a good shout.

Hands off please, he has work to do in NZ after 2017.

by mikey_dragon Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:59 am

Lancaster gone, AKA "The ta-ra mate thread."

by nathan Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:00 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Lancaster gone, AKA "The ta-ra mate thread."

Great contribution

by Hood83 Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:57 am

A decent, honest and hard-working guy. But I don't think up to the job. At the end of the WC I don't believe we'd moved forward in an area of consequence. I hope the other coaches leave as well as I think they're also not of a high enough standard.

I hope he goes on to success elsewhere.

by Hood83 Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:00 am

Forgot to say, I wonder if the next regime will also involve a successor plan. I don't think anyone in this group of coaches shone, but the ideal, presumably, is to build a successful team, but also successful coaches who can step up to the top job a la the ABs.

by glamorganalun Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:07 am

I can t understand Lancaster had a good 6N and heading in the right direction but come the Wales game at the rwc he ditches the 6N style and mirrored Gatland style and came up short. The new coach should learn as England have some good backs and pick a decent 7 and also benefit with another captain.

by Hood83 Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:20 am

glamorganalun wrote:I can t understand Lancaster had a good 6N and heading in the right direction but come the Wales game at the rwc he ditches the 6N style and mirrored Gatland style and came up short. The new coach should learn as England have some good backs and pick a decent 7 and also benefit with another captain.

He also culled our best hooker and Manu, who I actually rate as worse than JJ but who at least is an extremely useful option. That's fine, he wanted the 'culture' to be right. But ultimately I think it backfired as much as his change of tactics and as much as his picking players not fully fit.

by nathan Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:35 am

Hood83 wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:I can t understand Lancaster had a good 6N and heading in the right direction but come the Wales game at the rwc he ditches the 6N style and mirrored Gatland style and came up short. The new coach should learn as England have some good backs and pick a decent 7 and also benefit with another captain.

He also culled our best hooker and Manu, who I actually rate as worse than JJ but who at least is an extremely useful option. That's fine, he wanted the 'culture' to be right. But ultimately I think it backfired as much as his change of tactics and as much as his picking players not fully fit.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that at all, both Hartley and Manu (if he was fit) did not deserve to be in the World Cup. Nothing backfired on Lancaster, it wasnt his fault that those two players have issues

by kingelderfield Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:39 am

This is a day for celebration. Only the first step but it offers the opportunity for real change.

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:44 am

nathan wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:I can t understand Lancaster had a good 6N and heading in the right direction but come the Wales game at the rwc he ditches the 6N style and mirrored Gatland style and came up short. The new coach should learn as England have some good backs and pick a decent 7 and also benefit with another captain.

He also culled our best hooker and Manu, who I actually rate as worse than JJ but who at least is an extremely useful option. That's fine, he wanted the 'culture' to be right. But ultimately I think it backfired as much as his change of tactics and as much as his picking players not fully fit.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with that at all, both Hartley and Manu (if he was fit) did not deserve to be in the World Cup. Nothing backfired on Lancaster, it wasnt his fault that those two players have issues

I agree those two made no difference. Burrell could potentially but we'll never know.

What cost him was the game plan, and as had been the case through out his career, substitutions. Taking off Burgess at a key time, not leaving at 10 or removing Farrell completely, instead shunting him to 12 and the insane idea of Barritt at 13.

And then pretty much repeating that against Australia.

That's what cost him.

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