PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, your not interested in his comment regarding Australian involvement in the process or neutrality then...?

Hines seems to be saying that he is neutral,....

I read it pretty much the opposite......

Hmmmm... The headline yesterday was something like 'Scotland Pour Cold Water on Claim of bias'. Think that's the why it should be read.

But I'm an arrogant gimp, so don't take my word for it

(note just cut all the quotes down for space)

If there were no Claims Of Bias, then the SRU would not have needed to poor cold water on them, no??


note: almost at that magic number of posts when the mods come and lock down the thread

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK marty read this linky:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/bbc-wales-s4c-strike-new-7529242

and this bit in particular:-



I was not aware that it had changed, so in affect, Welsh rugby is committing the most to our league, and that is something neither you or munchkin can argue over anymore.

Or we could read the whole thing

Under the previous deal with BBC Wales, the WRU received the lion’s share, understood to around 70%, from Celtic Rugby –which was then washed through to the four Welsh regions.

For the new Sky and BBC Wales deals there will now be more of an equitable split between the three unions, but it will still result in the four regions each receiving increased funding than previously.

As I said I was not aware that anything had changed, so that kind of says it all, the TV audience is in Wales, the WRU subsidise the other unions with a better tv deal than all others. So unless Sky pay a lot more, then we will all lose out.

So when we get accused of things like damaging the league with our infighting and empty stadiums, just remember what we contribute via the media.

You were just saying how Welsh rugby kept all the money. Now they're keeping the others afloat eh.

Must be said I prefer the Barclays Premiership tv rights deal than the La Liga version.

marty2086 wrote:Do you ever get fed up with being wrong?

BBC WALES and S4C, two WELSH channels, pay money to air WELSH TEAMS. The demand is here in Wales, the audience is here to watch the WELSH TEAMS play, or do you think that BBC WALES and S4C pay all that money to show games that do not involve Welsh teams ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK marty read this linky:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/bbc-wales-s4c-strike-new-7529242

and this bit in particular:-



I was not aware that it had changed, so in affect, Welsh rugby is committing the most to our league, and that is something neither you or munchkin can argue over anymore.

Or we could read the whole thing

Under the previous deal with BBC Wales, the WRU received the lion’s share, understood to around 70%, from Celtic Rugby –which was then washed through to the four Welsh regions.

For the new Sky and BBC Wales deals there will now be more of an equitable split between the three unions, but it will still result in the four regions each receiving increased funding than previously.

As I said I was not aware that anything had changed, so that kind of says it all, the TV audience is in Wales, the WRU subsidise the other unions with a better tv deal than all others. So unless Sky pay a lot more, then we will all lose out.

So when we get accused of things like damaging the league with our infighting and empty stadiums, just remember what we contribute via the media.

You weren't aware? It was part of the quote you edited and posted to suit your argument that in full actually contradicted the point you had been arguing.

Considering the BBC is a publically funded organisation that is mostly subsidised by English taxes for the rest of us maybe we should thank them and what have the WRU got to do with it since it was a deal negotiated by Celtic Rugby?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You were just saying how Welsh rugby kept all the money.

I was wrong, I was not aware that it had changed, I thought the Welsh teams got the lions share of the BBC Wales and S4C money. But all that has changed now, so us Welshies are subsidising the league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I'd like to ask John Feehan why the 4 teams of Wales derive £3.2m of tv income into the league, yet the 4 teams of Ireland derive just £910,000.

Whats stopping you?

Its not like the whole thing hasn't been explained to you before anyway

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You were just saying how Welsh rugby kept all the money.

I was wrong, I was not aware that it had changed, I thought the Welsh teams got the lions share of the BBC Wales and S4C money. But all that has changed now, so us Welshies are subsidising the league.

You were aware though then edited the quote that proved you were wrong to make it look like it supported your argument

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:I'd like to ask John Feehan why the 4 teams of Wales derive £3.2m of tv income into the league, yet the 4 teams of Ireland derive just £910,000.

Whats stopping you?

Its not like the whole thing hasn't been explained to you before anyway

I've emailed / written to Pro12 numerous times but have never received a reply.

marty2086 wrote:WRU got to do with it since it was a deal negotiated by Celtic Rugby?

The original deal that saw 70% of the BBC Wales and S4C money go to the 4 Welsh regions was brokered by the WRU.

It has changed now, I was not aware of it.

marty2086 wrote:
You were aware though then edited the quote that proved you were wrong to make it look like it supported your argument

I quoted that part to show what I was under the impression of what was happening, not what is happening, I was unaware that things had changed.

So going back to the start with the amount of money being offered by S4C and the BBC likely to fall again, the Welsh not getting the majority of the money it probably is the right thing to look for one tv provider.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So going back to the start with the amount of money being offered by S4C and the BBC likely to fall again, the Welsh not getting the majority of the money it probably is the right thing to look for one tv provider.

If Sky CAN make up the difference on their own, then yes I would be all for it, but to say they will, or to say what is going to happen, without hard evidence is a stretch out into fantasy.

how do we know what Sky value the tv rights for the Pro12 at, for all we know, they could be thinking they are paying too much for what they have now.

I don't think it's a massive leap to suggest a decent negotiator would be able to get more from one broadcaster rather than several smaller ones though. They could well flatly refuse and think they have enough rugby seeing as they have some Euro and some French as well. Worth discussions behind closed doors though.

Obviously the individual unions would need to discuss and agree as well. Apparently Irish teams are happy they get the best tv times but the Welsh may want a fairer share of the preferred Friday night kick offs.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So going back to the start with the amount of money being offered by S4C and the BBC likely to fall again, the Welsh not getting the majority of the money it probably is the right thing to look for one tv provider.

If Sky CAN make up the difference on their own, then yes I would be all for it, but to say they will, or to say what is going to happen, without hard evidence is a stretch out into fantasy.

how do we know what Sky value the tv rights for the Pro12 at, for all we know, they could be thinking they are paying too much for what they have now.

And this is just to make up the difference to get back to the status quo of £11m. Bridging the £30m gap between the Pro12 and it's nearest rival is impossible. Just shows what a lame league this is.

Thought given the BBC and S4C are cost cutting the big wigs are probably already scouting around.

New leagues take time to develop Chunky. What exactly makes the league lame?

No 7&1/2 wrote:New leagues take time to develop Chunky. What exactly makes the league lame?

It's had 12 years to develop. I'm not typing it all out again. Have a read of this:

https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts

But what makes the league lame.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
And this is just to make up the difference to get back to the status quo of £11m. Bridging the £30m gap between the Pro12 and it's nearest rival is impossible. Just shows what a lame league this is.

Yes, so we are going to ask Sky to pay more than double what they already pay now, and more for "exclusive" rights.

The thing is, the tv audience in Wales is so big because it is FREE. The South Wales valleys where the biggest population is at, is the most deprived area of Great Britain, so asking people who live there to pay to watch rugby might not go down too well, you would more than likely lose half the audience.

I could be at the wrong end of the spectrum though, and Sky could think, hmmmm, look at those viewing figures in Wales alone, we'll pay for a slice of that, but that is just me stretching out into fantasy.

Yeah Sky aren't going to pay double. They don't need to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah Sky aren't going to pay double. They don't need to.

Exactly, that is why I think we would lose out if we went to one pay per view broadcaster. On the other hand though, what we would lose out on tele money, we could gain by people going to watch the teams instead, but I doubt it would be enough to make up the difference anyway.

That's where I differ a little. You will normally be able to secure higher tv rights if the broacaster has exclusivity.

And the fact the BBC are under pressure to save money may well mean the next deal is a reduced offer from that source.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:I'd like to ask John Feehan why the 4 teams of Wales derive £3.2m of tv income into the league, yet the 4 teams of Ireland derive just £910,000.

Whats stopping you?

Its not like the whole thing hasn't been explained to you before anyway

I've emailed / written to Pro12 numerous times but have never received a reply.

Im sure there were no rants included in there anywhere

Lets point a few facts out, the previous deal in Ireland had included a joint bid between RTE and TG4. RTE had to make cuts across the board and lost a lot of rights they previously had over the last few years. That left TG4 as the only bidder for the RoI rights, they have plenty of sport etc so are not heavily reliant on the rugby programming to draw viewers though it does pull in good ratings.

S4C are heavily reliant on rugby to draw viewers as some of their programmes draw none. BBC Wales also has commitments to regional programming and while this is usually done through producing programmes for S4C but I'm sure the cost of the rugby would be a lot cheaper than having to produce new programmes every week to meet the demands of the BBC.

The Irish figure also doesn't include the BBC NI amount.

Now, can we stop all this nonsense about the Welsh TV deal propping up the Pro12!

Gerald Davies, Chairman of the PRO12:

The civil war between the WRU and the Regions went on for two years. It was a very unsettling, awkward time, which affected the television rights and sponsorship deals. It created so much uncertainty. Companies weren’t going to invest in something where no one was sure of the future.

Other factual information: The PRO12 Company negotiates the TV deals, not the Welsh regions/WRU.

Interview on PRO12 in Rugby World.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/italy/the-big-pro12-interview-can-it-keep-pace-with-the-premiership-and-top-14-53103

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:I'd like to ask John Feehan why the 4 teams of Wales derive £3.2m of tv income into the league, yet the 4 teams of Ireland derive just £910,000.

Whats stopping you?

Its not like the whole thing hasn't been explained to you before anyway

I've emailed / written to Pro12 numerous times but have never received a reply.

Im sure there were no rants included in there anywhere

Lets point a few facts out, the previous deal in Ireland had included a joint bid between RTE and TG4. RTE had to make cuts across the board and lost a lot of rights they previously had over the last few years. That left TG4 as the only bidder for the RoI rights, they have plenty of sport etc so are not heavily reliant on the rugby programming to draw viewers though it does pull in good ratings.

S4C are heavily reliant on rugby to draw viewers as some of their programmes draw none. BBC Wales also has commitments to regional programming and while this is usually done through producing programmes for S4C but I'm sure the cost of the rugby would be a lot cheaper than having to produce new programmes every week to meet the demands of the BBC.

The Irish figure also doesn't include the BBC NI amount.

Some interesting stuff in that article

Sky is primary broadcaster.
Better viewing figures for PRO12 than for Aviva or Top 14.
PRO12 Round pulls in about 500,000 viewers.
PRO12 Final attracted 379,000 viewers (if Sky get over 200K they are delighted).

So it's not the regions/WRU that negotiate the broadcasting slots? So the WRU/regions are not to blame for agreeing a higher proportion of Sunday games with the broadcaster, as we've been led to believe on here? 'Blame the WRU and your region for agreeing to it', I think was the call! A Pro12 company is doing it on our behalf. That makes more sense. Thanks.

Griff wrote:So it's not the regions/WRU that negotiate the broadcasting slots? So the WRU/regions are not to blame for agreeing a higher proportion of Sunday games with the broadcaster, as we've been led to believe on here? 'Blame the WRU and your region for agreeing to it', I think was the call! A Pro12 company is doing it on our behalf. That makes more sense. Thanks.

The broadcaster dictates the broadcasting times. Blame the broadcaster for wanting to broadcast Welsh games on a Sunday.

That's not what we've been told over and over on here. It was never the broadcaster. 'Blame PRW, blame WRU, blame the region'! Brilliant!

Griff wrote:That's not what we've been told over and over on here. It was never the broadcaster. 'Blame PRW, blame WRU, blame the region'! Brilliant!

I'd be pretty sure I've posted that it is the Broadcaster who dictates the times for the games.

There is lots of stuff we've been told over and over on here ... such as the Welsh regions are propping up the PRO12 financially. Doesn't make it factual.

The argument has always been the broadcaster dictates the times!!! It's taken this long to get that into certain posters heads. There was a time when the IRFU were being blamed on here for the Welsh having to play on Sundays. There really have been some outrages accusations thrown around here.

Griff wrote:That's not what we've been told over and over on here. It was never the broadcaster. 'Blame PRW, blame WRU, blame the region'! Brilliant!

Well it was a couple of Regions fans that blamed anyone (The Irish, the WRU...), but the their own broadcasters for the scheduling. It was the rest of us pointing out that it is the broadcaster that dictate the times, and I have also pointed out that it is the Pro12 Welsh reps that negotiate with the broadcasters, such as Lewis, for example.

The WRU still continues to get more funding from the TV deals for the PRO 12 than the other two unions - SRU and IRFU,

Before Sky came on board, the WRU got approx 70-75% of all the TV monies negotiated by Celtic Rugby with the various broadcasters, because they brought most to the party with the BBC Wales/S4C deal.

When Sky was brought on board to be the primary broadcaster they paid more for the best rights and first pick on matches.   The money from the Sky deal is allocated by number of teams so WRU gets 40%, IRFU gets 40% and SRU 20%.

WRU still gets approx 65-70% of all of the terrestrial TV deal monies, since BBC Wales still pays the most compared to BBC Alba and TG4/BBC NI.

There is no subsidising by the WRU of other unions.  In fact, they get more money than the other two unions.

Thus any potential Sky deal on an exclusive rights basis would have to be increased substantially before the WRU reps in Celtic Rugby would agree to be better than what they get currently.

Not according to marty it ain't. You Irish members on here all need to sit down together and get your facts straight, as one Irish member is saying one thing and another is saying different.

Becomes a bit moot anyway if it's true that the BBC are cutting back on the funding for this source.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Becomes a bit moot anyway if it's true that the BBC are cutting back on the funding for this source.

BBC are cutting back on funding yes. But it does not mean BBC Wales will pay less for the rugby.

It's likely though when you see the how the rest of the organisation is having to pull back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's likely though when you see the how the rest of the organisation is having to pull back.

The rugby is one of the biggest viewing pullers for BBC Wales. We will just have to wait and see.

Yes, and they've reduced funding from past peaks and the economic environment of the BBC doesn't look like it's getting better. You just have to see what's happened to their coverage of Forumla 1 and did I even hear they've lost The Voice to ITV!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes, and they've reduced funding from past peaks and the economic environment of the BBC doesn't look like it's getting better. You just have to see what's happened to their coverage of Forumla 1 and did I even hear they've lost The Voice to ITV!

I know all this, but it is the regions that get their allocated funding, then it is up to them how they spend it. So we will have to wait and see how and where it is spent. I dunno, perhaps BBC Wales will cut back spending on programmes with Iolo Williams, which would also be a shame has he does some brilliant work, or they could cut down on the Welsh news, or on sport, we do not know, perhaps Dr Who will take a hit, again who knows ?

It's likely is all I'm saying.

Pot Hale wrote:The WRU still continues to get more funding from the TV deals for the PRO 12 than the other two unions - SRU and IRFU,

Before Sky came on board, the WRU got approx 70-75% of all the TV monies negotiated by Celtic Rugby with the various broadcasters, because they brought most to the party with the BBC Wales/S4C deal.

When Sky was brought on board to be the primary broadcaster they paid more for the best rights and first pick on matches.   The money from the Sky deal is allocated by number of teams so WRU gets 40%, IRFU gets 40% and SRU 20%.

WRU still gets approx 65-70% of all of the terrestrial TV deal monies, since BBC Wales still pays the most compared to BBC Alba and TG4/BBC NI.

There is no subsidising by the WRU of other unions.  In fact, they get more money than the other two unions.

Thus any  potential Sky deal on an exclusive rights basis would have to be increased substantially before the WRU reps in Celtic Rugby would agree to be better than what they get currently.

Not true Pot Hale,

'For the new Sky and BBC Wales deals there will now be more of an equitable split between the three unions, but it will still result in the four regions each receiving increased funding than previously.'

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/bbc-wales-s4c-strike-new-7529242

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The WRU still continues to get more funding from the TV deals for the PRO 12 than the other two unions - SRU and IRFU,

Before Sky came on board, the WRU got approx 70-75% of all the TV monies negotiated by Celtic Rugby with the various broadcasters, because they brought most to the party with the BBC Wales/S4C deal.

When Sky was brought on board to be the primary broadcaster they paid more for the best rights and first pick on matches.   The money from the Sky deal is allocated by number of teams so WRU gets 40%, IRFU gets 40% and SRU 20%.

WRU still gets approx 65-70% of all of the terrestrial TV deal monies, since BBC Wales still pays the most compared to BBC Alba and TG4/BBC NI.

There is no subsidising by the WRU of other unions.  In fact, they get more money than the other two unions.

Thus any  potential Sky deal on an exclusive rights basis would have to be increased substantially before the WRU reps in Celtic Rugby would agree to be better than what they get currently.

Not true Pot Hale,

'For the new Sky and BBC Wales deals there will now be more of an equitable split between the three unions, but it will still result in the four regions each receiving increased funding than previously.'

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/bbc-wales-s4c-strike-new-7529242

It is true, Marty.

More equitable does not mean "the same"

No its not, if you read the article is states the figure of 70% was under the previous deal

marty2086 wrote:No its not, if you read the article is states the figure of 70% was under the previous deal

You're mis-reading how the 70% applies.  That relates to the proportion of terrestrial Tv income.  In overall income terms, WRU probably gets around 50% of all TV income, I would estimate.

Consider the sentence you quoted more closely :"For the new Sky and BBC Wales deals there will now be more of an equitable split between the three unions, but it will still result in the four regions each receiving increased funding than previously."

The conclusion is that the four Welsh regions will receive more than they had previously. Previously they had approx £3.7m, if they're now getting more, then let's assume that's now they're getting over £4m. The total value of the Sky plus terrestrial deal is approx £8m - therefore about 50% of the total monies.

Relying on one article is not reliable.  Here's a previous one that gives more detail http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/sky-signs-four-year-deal-3475362

Let me give you an example of figures to explain what I mean.

Pre-Sky - Terrestrial only

Celtic Rugby negotiated territorial deals only.  Going by the figures cited in the above article:

BBC Wales/S4C/TG4/BBC NI/Alba - £5.4m

WRU received approx 70% of the funding, IRFU approx 15% and SRU 15%
Thus WRU £3.78m
IRFU and SRU approx £0.8m each.

Sky as primary plus terrestrial deal

Sky £5m - split 40/40/20
WRU gets £2m, as do IRFU and SRU gets £1m

Terrestrial revised deals (lower because Sky is now the primary broadcaster)
BBC Wales/S4C/TG4/BBCNI/Alba £3.5m (my estimate)

Thus:
WRU gets £2m + £2.4m = £4.4m [52%]  (3.78m - 70%)
IRFU gets £2m + £0.5m = £2.5m [30%] (£0.8m -15%)
SRU gets £1m + £0.5m = £1.5m [18%] (£0.8m - 15%)

A more equitable deal reflecting what the unions and their respective clubs are bringing to the party - Sky values the Irish teams more; whereas BBC Wales continues to value the Welsh teams more. Sky got first pick of 22 matches and Sat screenings in the main for their rights deal with finals stages to be shared between Sky and relevant regional broadcaster.

You say don't rely on one article then use one article to back up what you're saying

The two articles together seem to back up what you are saying though. I wonder if the money from Rabo was split in a similar manner given that they only operated in the Republic of Ireland.

If Italy receive nothing from the Sky deal that is a bit of a joke, while they may not provide viewers they do participate and that has a value to the league, just about.

marty2086 wrote:You say don't rely on one article then use one article to back up what you're saying

The two articles together seem to back up what you are saying though. I wonder if the money from Rabo was split in a similar manner given that they only operated in the Republic of Ireland.

If Italy receive nothing from the Sky deal that is a bit of a joke, while they may not provide viewers they do participate and that has a value to the league, just about.

No - I was relying on both articles to provide sources of information about the deals (Sky deal and the split in one article plus the actual value of the BBC Wales deal from the other article)  - I also looked at information from other sources to estimate the value of the deals.  

I've no idea about how the sponsorship monies from RaboDirect were split - my background is in TV so I know more about that.  I was giving you the links to show you how these kind of deals work.

Italy receive nothing from the Sky deal, for a simple reason.   They were not shareholders in Celtic Rugby - which was linked to the row last year about their payment of monies to become shareholders.  Thus the Sky deal negotiated was for the three unions only.   The FIR receives the money from its TV deals separately - linked to its two teams home matches.  I don't know whether Celtic Rugby now negotiates on their behalf or if that is still done separately.

Excluding the Italians from it is stupidity and short termism, if we can get more money into Italian rugby we can maybe grow it or at least at a faster rate it is at the minute which is a snails pace if at all.

A population of 60m can bring in huge sums in terms of tv deals and sponsorship not to mention the ex pats and those of Italian heritage in places like Australia and the US(where the game has the potential to take off soon).

marty2086 wrote:Excluding the Italians from it is stupidity and short termism, if we can get more money into Italian rugby we can maybe grow it or at least at a faster rate it is at the minute which is a snails pace if at all.

A population of 60m can bring in huge sums in terms of tv deals and sponsorship not to mention the ex pats and those of Italian heritage in places like Australia and the US(where the game has the potential to take off soon).

And yet, the FIR was balking at paying its stake to get a shareholding in the league.....

Edit: As of last year's Annual Return in Jan 2015, there were two Italian directors on the board of Celtic Rugby, but the 300 shares issued by the company are between SRU, WRU and IRFU only. That may have changed in the last 12 months.

Pot Hale wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Excluding the Italians from it is stupidity and short termism, if we can get more money into Italian rugby we can maybe grow it or at least at a faster rate it is at the minute which is a snails pace if at all.

A population of 60m can bring in huge sums in terms of tv deals and sponsorship not to mention the ex pats and those of Italian heritage in places like Australia and the US(where the game has the potential to take off soon).

And yet, the FIR was balking at paying its stake to get a shareholding in the league.....

Edit: As of last year's Annual Return in Jan 2015, there were two Italian directors on the board of Celtic Rugby, but the 300 shares issued by the company are between SRU, WRU and IRFU only.   That may have changed in the last 12 months.

The FIR pay to take part whereas the other teams/unions don't, so they are paying to take part and get no return directly from the league.

They are struggling to keep hold of their best players who are mostly going to France and England with the odd exception staying in the Pro 12. Guys like Favaro, Ghiraldini, Aguero and Cittadini could have helped guy young players into the team and provide a foundation for them to build on but instead we have Treviso yet to win this season and Zebre clocking up 2 outside of their wins over Treviso.