The Decline In Crowds At Munster Matches Was Wholly Predictable

Only 7.200 supporters attended Munster's victory over Ulster in the Guinness Pro12 two weeks ago. Afterwards, Anthony Foley bemoaned the paltry attendance.

He told the Irish Independent;

It is disappointing that the crowd was what it was. The umbilical chord has always been there between Munster and our supporters. It's important people come and support us.

You've got to come and sample it. Watching it on TV is only armchair stuff - you've got to come here and feel it. It's important for Limerick that everyone comes out and supports the game. It's a big stadium that needs filling and it's a great atmosphere.
For Saturday's Heineken Cup opener against Treviso, the crowd was bigger but not by a whole lot.

What to make of this?

Observing the fervour of their supporters during the noughties, it was easy to assume that the red hordes have been travelling to Munster games since the earliest days of the oval game (as George Hook might phrase it).

The truth is that Munster's success in the professional era pre-dates the bulk of their following jumping on board - not the other way around.

With Munster now struggling to compete with the top sides in Europe, a large portion of that support seems to be drifting away. We asked historian Dr. Liam O'Callaghan, the author of Rugby in Munster: a social and cultural history for his assessment of this trend.

Last year, we wrote about Munster's first ever match in the Heineken Cup back in November 1995. O'Callaghan was there that day as Munster pipped Swansea thanks to late winning try by Shannon full back Pat Murray.

Thomond Park was only half-full and the chatter on the terrace was not about Munster and their chances in this new-fangled competition but about the upcoming AIL games. The main concern was that one of these Munster players might pick up an injury and miss a genuinely important match.

There were a few thousand at it, there was no real fuss about it, and everybody in the crowd was just talking about the club fixtures of the previous weekend. This Munster thing was just a gentle distraction from the much more important business of AIL fixtures.

The attendance was such at the stadium that both of us viewed the game by following the play quite easily by walking around the game to follow where the action was. It was quite easy to position oneself behind the goals at Conversion time , in a vain effort to be photographed... In terms of hype around the game, for us as supporters, we were more inquisitive as to how the new competition would take off, considering it was at a time when the AIL was the be all and end all in Irish competition terms.
O'Callaghan says the drop in Munster's attendances in recent years was wholly predictable. A transient fanbase was attracted to Munster because of their success in the last decade and now that success has disappeared they are disappearing too.

Firstly, it's no great surprise. The crowds were attracted first and foremost by success. And in the last six or seven years, that's kind of fallen away. And we're seeing crowds falling away as well.
Pre-professionalism, Munster participated in the dowdy and unglamorous inter-provincial championship every winter. This competition was accompanied by resounding public disinterest (that Ulster won it every year from 1984 to 1994 may have contributed to the southern media's lukewarm attitude to the competition). It was barely any glitzier than the Railway Cup.

If you had a touring side coming from Australia and New Zealand, then you might get a big crowd but the old inter-provincial championship was a really unloved competition, a few men and his dog used to show up to watch it. The real hardcore support went to club football... that's where you got the crowds. The Munster phenomenon only took off in the professional era so there was always something new-fangled about it in the first instance.

Given that the Munster phenomenon is relatively recent, you see a lot of flexibility around demand on the supporters side, so the entrenched loyalties that older football clubs in England would have going back 150 years may not apply to the same extent.
Will the decline in the crowds at Thomond Park continue? Well, the level of success enjoyed in the mid-noughties is unlikely to return to Munster in the short-term. Ireland's provincial teams are struggling to keep pace with the monied French outfits.

No other team - apart from the other provinces - is so dependant on the players it can produce in its immediate geographical area. If you compare that to the Toulon team that won the Heineken Cup last year, they had only one player from the city of Toulon... I really think the bar has been raised in the last few years and the Irish provincial structure and business model can't really compete.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

But you think that any new deal would be pretty close to what the AP are getting now?

Way more I'd expect.

Based on what?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Chunky as I clarified I meant compete financially - of course we compete with them on the pitch that is self evident.

As to Sextons salary if we take that figure at face value and add it to the Irish provinces salary level that still puts Leinster total salary level way below that of Toulon, Clermont, Racing etc.

What is Leinster's total salary level?

Taking into account all factors it is equivalent to the English salary cap as are Munster and Ulster.
Even assuming the Sexton salary is over and above that the final figure remains considerably below the bigger spending French sides

marty2086 wrote:What thread?

Anything I have read from you in the past is nothing more than you assuming because the AP can get the amount they are getting if we join them we can get it too

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if the Irish and now the English are able to compete comfortably in your view, why do either need this league?

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Chunky as I clarified I meant compete financially - of course we compete with them on the pitch that is self evident.

As to Sextons salary if we take that figure at face value and add it to the Irish provinces salary level that still puts Leinster total salary level way below that of Toulon, Clermont, Racing etc.

What is Leinster's total salary level?

Taking into account all factors it is equivalent to the English salary cap as are Munster and Ulster.
Even assuming the Sexton salary is over and above that the final figure remains considerably below the bigger spending French sides

The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll help you out marty, it was based on the fact that the B&I league wouldn't look as attractive without the money so BT would pay a whole load more as they're desperate for more high quality rugby so would pay over what they had to so that the financial model here would work.

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll help you out marty, it was based on the fact that the B&I league wouldn't look as attractive without the money so BT would pay a whole load more as they're desperate for more high quality rugby so would pay over what they had to so that the financial model here would work.

Its a huge assumption

Given the fact that BT have added more sports, leagues etc including the Champions League to their channels since the deal was negotiated they need the AP less than they once did.

Also given that there are 12 clubs in the AP and 10 in the Pro 12(if as I assume the Italians are being ditched) how does adding more teams work? Conferences? Extra divisions?

Either way it dilutes the chance of teams winning and progressing to the ERCC

Also one viewer in London is worth more to marketers than three from Cardiff, Swansea, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dublin or Belfast and BT already have viewers attracted to their station from these areas thanks to Europe so they need the Pro12 teams less than some like to think

LondonTiger wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

marty2086 wrote:
Also given that there are 12 clubs in the AP and 10 in the Pro 12(if as I assume the Italians are being ditched) how does adding more teams work? Conferences? Extra divisions?

LondonTiger wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes I was, sorry marty! We really need a sarcasm smiley if we haven't already!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

I can't win then really can I?

I provide a fact. A number audited by DNACG and I "really do not help myself".

LondonTiger wrote:

Toulon are perfectly open about their true spending - something I think you are aware of.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Toulon are perfectly open about their true spending - something I think you are aware of.

Yes, unlike the Irish clubs. The £5.99m figure comes directly from Toulon. That's what they paid on wages last year. They also have clothes ranges etc for certain players. Just like Sexton has a 200,000 Euros deal with Topaz for his extra earnings.

Absolutely no difference.

marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

So you can produce the accounts of all these sides, including the Provinces, and point out the difference in transparency? Can you?

marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

geoff999rugby wrote:
Do you still think the Toulon salary is limited to £5.99m i.e. less than the English and the Irish - honestly is that your position Chunky !

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

So you can produce the accounts of all these sides, including the Provinces, and point out the difference in transparency? Can you?

The welsh and english teams' accounts are all on companies house website I believe. Some people have a problem with transparency because not all the teams' accounts are available.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

As a non member the answer would be no

geoff999rugby wrote:

Details of Irish rugby accounts can be found on the Irish equivalent of Companies House - no difference

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Do you still think the Toulon salary is limited to £5.99m i.e. less than the English and the Irish - honestly is that your position Chunky !

The salary is yes. As you just proved by posting what DNACG does.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Reread the articles I posted the salary cap is 10 million euro, the suspicion is Toulon are getting around that to the tune of a further 1 million euro.
In addition any youth player is not included - they can earn up to 50,000 euro.

A lot of youth players I suspect.

To maintain a position that Toulon and others do not outspend the likes of Leicester, Ulster, Saints etc etc is bizarre

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

As a non member the answer would be no

So the provincial practice is "more than presenting your accounts to Companies House", yet you haven't got access to a single figure to show me.

Right.

marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Details of Irish rugby accounts can be found on the Irish equivalent of Companies House - no difference

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

I know that, but what's the point of going over the same old ground? You know Toulon pay more to their players than the salary cap allows. You know Toulon pay much more to their players than any of the Provinces. So what exactly is it that you're trying to say?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

More than we know about the Irish provinces. Which is the whole point.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

marty2086 wrote:
The salary cap is £5.5m this season, it was £4.75m last season when Toulon were spending their £5.9m and this season they have added O'Connell, Manoa, Ma'afu, Cooper, Vermuelen, Stevens and Nonu

VinceWLB wrote:The Salary cap means absolutely Poopie in the top 14. I don't even know why it exists.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

More than we know about the Irish provinces. Which is the whole point.

Have you actually looked at them all then and what the Provinces report?