Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

Londontiger I agree it has not all been doom and gloom. 80% win record in the 6 nations is pretty good but Lancaster and co mostly bottled the big games with baffling decisions. Winnable games too.


I agree that you're not necessarily going to win every game but Lancaster and co didn't win most of the key ones. E.g. Wales in the RWC, Wales in two GS deciders, France and Ireland in games that if won, England might well have won the GS. No win vs SA despite the likes of Japan,Ireland and Wales being capable of the task. Heavy loss to Australia in the RWC at home.

I suppose you could ask the question: "do England have good enough players?" Looking at the healthy performances of the English clubs in the ERCC I would say yes. Looking at the strength of the England U20s - again I would say yes.


With the resources at his disposal, Lancaster could have done better. Eddie Jones I think will.

I find it amusing that you say Borthwick is a complete novice - he's helped mastermind a win over Wales, was a key member of Eddie Jones' efforts with Japan in the RWC. He has more international coaching experience than the likes of Johnson,Catt,Lancaster and Farrell had when they started their roles with England. Plus of course he's been one of the finest lineout technicians in the world.

Of course the important factor is that he has had a good working relationship with Eddie Jones and Paul Gustard.

When you have coaching team built on mutual respect it's a good start. Personally I am glad to see him being considered.


Student A1 you and I are pretty much in agreement.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Japan had Borthwick and a scrum coach (a french guy) under Eddie.

That's Marc dal Maso. In sad news, he's just revealed he's suffering from Parkinson's disease.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Marc-dal-maso-souffre-de-la-maladie-de-parkinson/616499

English press has the reports now. He's pretty sure it's a result of head injuries he picked up as a player.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/14/france-marc-dal-maso-parkinsons-disease

Extremely sad news. I wish him well in coping with his illness.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I agree it has not all been doom and gloom. 80% win record in the 6 nations is pretty good but Lancaster and co mostly bottled the big games with baffling decisions. Winnable games too.


I agree that you're not necessarily going to win every game but Lancaster and co didn't win most of the key ones. E.g. Wales in the RWC, Wales in two GS deciders, France and Ireland in games that if won, England might well have won the GS. No win vs SA despite the likes of Japan,Ireland and Wales being capable of the task. Heavy loss to Australia in the RWC at home.

I suppose you could ask the question: "do England have good enough players?" Looking at the healthy performances of the English clubs in the ERCC I would say yes. Looking at the strength of the England U20s - again I would say yes.


With the resources at his disposal, Lancaster could have done better. Eddie Jones I think will.

I find it amusing that you say Borthwick is a complete novice - he's helped mastermind a win over Wales, was a key member of Eddie Jones' efforts with Japan in the RWC. He has more international coaching experience than the likes of Johnson,Catt,Lancaster and Farrell had when they started their roles with England. Plus of course he's been one of the finest lineout technicians in the world.

Of course the important factor is that he has had a good working relationship with Eddie Jones and Paul Gustard.

When you have coaching team built on mutual respect it's a good start. Personally I am glad to see him being considered.


Student A1 you and I are pretty much in agreement.

I think the key thing is he's not going in as head coach either. Him, Gustard / whoever comes in have an experienced guy at the helm to keep them inline (directed) and work with.

I have no issue with Borthwick coming in to do lineouts, but not happy with suggestions he has complete control of the forwards. He should not be learning the job on England duty.

LondonTiger wrote:I have no issue with Borthwick coming in to do lineouts, but not happy with suggestions he has complete control of the forwards. He should not be learning the job on England duty.

But that's worked so well for you guys before.....

Completely agree. It's time England went for proven coaches at the top of their game.

Exactly Geordiefalcon and all 3 are familiar with one another.

Borthwick has experience working with Eddie Jones and Gustard obviously. It's quite clearly a key factor why Eddie Jones wants Borthwick.

Borthwick is also well respected among players, now I know that never came across when he was England captain because he was poor in front of the media but if Eddie Jones fields the questions and lets Borthwick and Gustard get on with the nitty gritty I think England will be in good hands.


I expect that Gustard will help Borthwick with the forwards. At Saracens, Alex Sanderson and Paul Gustard both worked together with the forwards and defence. It wasn't as straightforward as - you take the forwards, I take defence.

Does Gustard not also do the forwards coaching at Saracens, or is he defence only? No idea if thats completely wrong

Yeah Gustard does the forwards coaching at Sarracens aswell...or certainly part of it.

Him Borthwick and a scrum coach will be just fine.

Gustard defence coach also. and Eddie as Attack Coach.

BamBam wrote:Does Gustard not also do the forwards coaching at Saracens, or is he defence only? No idea if thats completely wrong

Gustard and Sanderson work together. They are a duo working on all aspects - scrum,lineout,defence etc,

It's why I never understood what Andy Farrell did at Saracens. Perhaps he was the backs coach but the backs were poor with him in charge.

To support my point on the Sarries website - Gustard is named as forwards and defence coach. Quite clearly he'll help Borthwick if signed up.

Gustard has done well.

Played against him many a time through school...he was a RGS Newcastle lad. I remember when he was a fat prop playing 7's and he dummied me ....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gustard has done well.

Played against him many a time through school...he was a RGS Newcastle lad. I remember when he was a fat prop playing 7's and he dummied me ....

I played against Paul and father Steve, at different times

In an interview last week it was highlighted that Paul is defence and lineout at Sarries.

I guess I am alone in worrying about us yet again appointing a coach with minimal experience coaching the area expected of them.

I would rather we had just Jones and Custard as permanent, then use guys like Borthwick, King etc on a consultancy basis for their prime skills whilst they continue to learn the job with their clubs. After all, why do we need a huge panel for what is actually limited access?

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gustard has done well.

Played against him many a time through school...he was a RGS Newcastle lad. I remember when he was a fat prop playing 7's and he dummied me ....

I played against Paul and father Steve, at different times

In an interview last week it was highlighted that Paul is defence and lineout at Sarries.

I guess I am alone in worrying about us yet again appointing a coach with minimal experience coaching the area expected of them.

I would rather we had just Jones and Custard as permanent, then use guys like Borthwick, King etc on a consultancy basis for their prime skills whilst they continue to learn the job with their clubs. After all, why do we need a huge panel for what is actually limited access?

I prefer Sticky toffee pudding with custard...but each to their own..

Damned auto correct

Londontiger got to say I don't remember you worrying back about Martin Johnson's lack of experience....

Anyway this is a different situation to Lancaster and Johnson, Borthwick actually has international experience with Japan. He's not the head coach, he's just one of a team of assistants answering to Eddie Jones. As I said before he will have Gustard to assist him too.

Eddie wants Steve because he's worked with him before. Gustard was inspired to be a coach by Eddie and of course he's had plenty of interaction with both Steve and Eddie.

A team isn't necessarily about the best players on paper, it's about how they gel. A coaching team is surely the same? You need coaches who have good chemistry and are comfortable working together or you can have clashes.

Japan beat sides like SA and Samoa that were probably better than them on paper but they won because they were better organised and had a better structure IMO.

You might look at Borthwick's coaching resume and not be impressed but let's see what he can do with Eddie Jones first - they did pretty well with Japan together.

And don't forget - Jones has had experience with Saracens...

A few questions.

1. Are we expecting the new England to play the Sarries game plan then?

2. Looking at the current players in the England squad can they do this?

3. If we are going with that game plan what players would best play to it who aren't currently selected?

beshocked wrote:Londontiger got to say I don't remember you worrying back about Martin Johnson's lack of experience....

Then you need to check your memory, before throwing out accusations. In 2008 I was adamant he was the wrong choice. However 3 years later I thought it was wrong to then lose all the experience he had gained.

I am, believe it or not, showing consistency. Rowntree should never have been promoted above his experience level of scrum coach, Farrell above his experience of defence coach or indeed Johnson appointed. It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

Plus we have learned that too many coaching voices causes confusion and overlap. Two full time coaches is enough for me, with as I said consultants brought in for specific duties. I do not think that it helps Borthwick's development if he is either promoted to being forwards coach, or hired full time as just a lineout specialist. He will learn so much more being involved with Bristol AND England.

PS Beshocked - I do not remember you as a poster on the original 606 - so maybe that would be why you missed my criticism of Johnson's appointment.

I don't think we can have much of an opinion about the whole set-up until we see everything in action. Jones has been given a free hand, and is actually the first England manager since Clive Woodward in 1997 not to keep any assistants from the previous regime when first assuming the post.

I've probably expressed more reservations than most here about Jones but that's primarily because it seems to me that he is being asked to deliver too much. We want him to win titles, bring our young playing talent to fruition, keep on the right side of the clubs, and develop the next England coaching team.

Whatever my concerns, though, I'd rather Jones has the leeway to do whatever he is good at, and the first step has to be getting people he wants in place to help him do so.

yappysnap wrote:A few questions.

1. Are we expecting the new England to play the Sarries game plan then?

2. Looking at the current players in the England squad can they do this?

3. If we are going with that game plan what players would best play to it who aren't currently selected?

The first question for me will be whether we place primacy on attacking or defensive tactics.

If we for instance decide to try and adopt the "wolfpack" a lot of emphasis is placed on the ability of the 10 and 12 to rush up and make a physical challenge. they do not need to complete the tackle but they have to be at the very least knock the players back to allow the forwards to complete the challenge.

I cannot see how we can select players like Ford (who can tackle and seems to enjoy it, but will always be conceding ground when he tackles), Cipriani (improved defensively, but will never fit an aggressive defence) or Eastmond. Selecting the likes of Farrell and Barritt will have an effect on how we play the game ball in hand.

So to answer you questions Yappy, we may not overtly choose to play a Sarries style game (and frankly would hope we do not until it at least can be shown to work come crunch games against opponents who match you up front). We may however choose to adopt the Sarries style defence which will then necessitate a certain type of player being selected, and preclude others.

In the end results talk. If we win a GS in the next four years whatever we do will be better than what went before. A continuation of the last five seasons where we win 4 lose 1 and we are back to speculation and conjecture. Return to the Andy Robinson win rates in the next few 6Ns and we will be looking back at the last 5 years in a more nostalgic manner.

Borthwick confirmed as forwards coach.

ah well. Not happy that yet again we select a coach with so little experience, and stil lbelieve this is not in the best interests of Borthwick.

But time to get behind him I guess.

LondonTiger wrote:I cannot see how we can select players like Ford (who can tackle and seems to enjoy it, but will always be conceding ground when he tackles), Cipriani (improved defensively, but will never fit an aggressive defence) or Eastmond.

Why not? Saracens play Charlie Hodgson.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I cannot see how we can select players like Ford (who can tackle and seems to enjoy it, but will always be conceding ground when he tackles), Cipriani (improved defensively, but will never fit an aggressive defence) or Eastmond.

Why not? Saracens play Charlie Hodgson.

and try as he might to rush up and be physical, they do not pressure teams in the same way with hodgson. they look more creative ball in hand, but do not execute the defence as they want.

Well at least Jones is being allowed to choose his team, and isn't inheriting baggage.

I don't think Borthwick is the best forwards coach available to England, but Jones obviously rates him and has made the call. Time will tell. The England forwards struggled at the World Cup so it's not a bad time to be coming on board as a coach. Improvements should not be hard to come by.

Londontiger perhaps it was an oversight of mine. I apologise I just got the impression you were part of the Martin Johnson England coach fan club. You claim you are not. Fair enough.

I was a member of the original 606.

You talk about development.... do you think Championship rugby is the best way for a coach to development or more international rugby?

Higher level is always the best way to test someone in my opinion. It's not as if Borthwick is going to be doing the job on his own. He'll have the experienced Eddie Jones as his mentor and in all likelihood Gustard to assist too.

Yappysnap

1.Yes
2.Yes
3.Hill, Itoje and Ewers off the bench.

Wouldn't surprise me to see

1.Mako
2.George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury (c)
5.Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola

9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Hill
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

16.Marler
17.Hartley
18.Brookes
19.Itoje
20.Ewers
21.Youngs
22.Ford
23.Burrell

But B, he will not have day to day coaching experience.

As to MJ - perhaps you are confused becfause I was willing to defend his record in 2011. for someone who had no experience, and was lumbered with someopne elses backroom staff I felt then he had done well and it was a crying shame that the experience he had gathered has been lost from rugby.

Londontiger you don't have that at international level any way. You don't have access to your players all the time like club level. That luxury is not available.

Borthwick has more coaching experience at international level than the likes of Farrell,Johnson and Catt had when they were first made international coaches. Being involved in a RWC is going to help too. Getting used to high stakes games.

Let's be honest no one quite knows how well a coach/player is going to do before they do the job. I have been advocating Eddie Jones,Borthwick and Gustard but of course there's a chance it won't work.

Remember it's not Borthwick in isolation, he'll work as an unit with Gustard and Jones. I expect Jones to do most of the talking too!

beshocked wrote:Londontiger you don't have that at international level any way. You don't have access to your players all the time like club level. That luxury is not available.

Borthwick has more coaching experience at international level than the likes of Farrell,Johnson and Catt had when they were first made international coaches. Being involved in a RWC is going to help too. Getting used to high stakes games.

Let's be honest no one quite knows how well a coach/player is going to do before they do the job. I have been advocating Eddie Jones,Borthwick and Gustard but of course there's a chance it won't work.

Remember it's not Borthwick in isolation, he'll work as an unit with Gustard and Jones. I expect Jones to do most of the talking too!

Rhubarb and Custard. Not sure where Borthwick fits in but it sounds great

I see Planet Rugby have gone for the least flattering picture of Borthwick possible;

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/borthwick-joins-england/

Spoiler:

Notch wrote:I see Planet Rugby have gone for the least flattering picture of Borthwick possible;

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/borthwick-joins-england/

Spoiler:

I disagree, thats probably one of the better ones. But he hasn't been chosen for his looks

beshocked wrote:Londontiger you don't have that at international level any way. You don't have access to your players all the time like club level. That luxury is not available.

Borthwick has more coaching experience at international level than the likes of Farrell,Johnson and Catt had when they were first made international coaches. Being involved in a RWC is going to help too. Getting used to high stakes games.

Let's be honest no one quite knows how well a coach/player is going to do before they do the job. I have been advocating Eddie Jones,Borthwick and Gustard but of course there's a chance it won't work.

Remember it's not Borthwick in isolation, he'll work as an unit with Gustard and Jones. I expect Jones to do most of the talking too!

I just believe that if you are new at any career you need as much experience as possible every single day to hone your skills. I firmly believe that Borthwick woudl develop more as a coach if he was full time at Bristoil and part time with England just as lineout coach than he will as full time England forwards coach. In my working career I have seen far too many people promoted too early and never manage to develop.

I really hope it works for England - but worry that for Borthwick as a man it will be a bad thing in the long run.

Anyway,

An Aussie, a Cumbrian and a Geordie walked in Twickenham.........

http://www.bristolrugby.co.uk/news/club-statement-steve-borthwick/


Steve Borthwick has today indicated to the Club that he wishes to join the RFU coaching team.


Bristol Rugby want to make it clear that we have not agreed that Steve Borthwick can leave our employment.

Steve Borthwick is subject to a recently signed long term employment contract. Bristol Rugby did not give the RFU permission to speak with Steve Borthwick.

Bristol Rugby will take all reasonable actions as necessary to protect the Club’s position and, therefore, will not be making any further statement at this stage.


Looks like a club vs country battle is in session....

For the record, I think it is a smart appointment- but you still need a scrum coach. Marc del Maso will not be coming over from the Japan team.

England we be no.1 in the world before long, Eddie Jones is a very good coach, he has brought Borthwick on board as well, England will win next years 6N, and they will then build nicely up to the next WC.

beshocked wrote:http://www.bristolrugby.co.uk/news/club-statement-steve-borthwick/


Steve Borthwick has today indicated to the Club that he wishes to join the RFU coaching team.


Bristol Rugby want to make it clear that we have not agreed that Steve Borthwick can leave our employment.

Steve Borthwick is subject to a recently signed long term employment contract. Bristol Rugby did not give the RFU permission to speak with Steve Borthwick.

Bristol Rugby will take all reasonable actions as necessary to protect the Club’s position and, therefore, will not be making any further statement at this stage.


Looks like a club vs country battle is in session....

beshocked wrote:Higher level is always the best way to test someone in my opinion. It's not as if Borthwick is going to be doing the job on his own. He'll have the experienced Eddie Jones as his mentor and in all likelihood Gustard to assist too.

It's that terminology that bothers me. You wouldn't have described Clive Woodward as "mentoring" Robinson, Larder et al, and you wouldn't describe Henry as mentoring Smith and Hansen.

I don't think England should be appointing a coach requiring "mentoring".

So another coach the RFU are trying to snap up without having presided over a single game for his new club. Doesn't appear Bristol are standing down quite so meekly as Stormers either. Ironic given they're an English club and might have considered the national interest whereas Stormers will have had no such inclination.

Leaves a bit of a sour taste, I admit. One might have thought potentially in-demand coaches like Jones and Borthwick might have waited a little longer to assess potential suitors, rather than make a commitment and immediately dishonour that commitment.

My bad, Borthwick would have had active time coaching his new club unlike Jones. Still a dishonored commitment.

Jones had a release clause so the Stormers couldn't stand in his way.

Why does it leave a sour taste? I couldn't give a hoot about Bristol tbh.

Knowsit17 surely both Eddie Jones and Steve Borthwick wanted to make sure they had a job after the RWC? There was no guarantee the England jobs were there for the taking.

Lancaster and co were on long term contracts. It's only their world cup disaster which led to their exit.

Personally I think Bristol should take the compensation and accept it. Yes it's a bit unfair and unfortunate but you could say the same as Stormers and Saracens (expect Gustard to be confirmed).

Saracens are willing to let Gustard go.

FES perhaps not but Borthwick has worked with Eddie Jones before at Japan.

beshocked wrote:Saracens are willing to let Gustard go.
.

they will have insisted on the full compensation being paid though - as they did with Andy Farrell.

that is all Bristol are trying to do. They will have no interest in keeping borthwick now, but they have a contract and they will want compensation.


I really hope Borthwick does well, but still confused you are unable to accept he is the least experienced Forwards coach we have had since such a post was invented.

Londontiger might well have insisted on full compensation and rightly so. If Bristol are doing the same then why does there seem to be an issue? Surely it should be the same.


I would accept it if it was true. You just seem to be ignoring Borthwick's work with Japan. International experience, especially in a RWC is worth a lot. It shouldn't just be nonchalantly dismissed. Japan were one of the surprise packages of the RWC and Borthwick was a key part of that. He had been working with Japan before the RWC too helping mastermind the victory over Wales in 2013 too.

Surely the least experienced forwards coach was your own man Rowntree? He had only had a handful of months as Tigers forwards coach before being given the England job.

Japan still failed to make it past the group stage. The jury will be out on Borthwick as an inexperienced coach as well as King who's hardly setting the world alight with the Saints backs.

If Bristol are going to be awkward they have to hope they get promoted this year. If as it seems likely the AP and RFU are going to agree a extension to fourteen teams and no promotion they could find themselves not in the top twelve and with no friends when it comes to choosing the other two.

LordDowlais wrote:England we be no.1 in the world before long, Eddie Jones is a very good coach

Is this tongue in cheek?

beshocked wrote:Londontiger might well have insisted on full compensation and rightly so. If Bristol are doing the same then why does there seem to be an issue? Surely it should be the same.


I would accept it if it was true. You just seem to be ignoring Borthwick's work with Japan. International experience, especially in a RWC is worth a lot. It shouldn't just be nonchalantly dismissed. Japan were one of the surprise packages of the RWC and Borthwick was a key part of that. He had been working with Japan before the RWC too helping mastermind the victory over Wales in 2013 too.

Surely the least experienced forwards coach was your own man Rowntree? He had only had a handful of months as Tigers forwards coach before being given the England job.

When Rowntree was made FORWARDS coach he had been Englands scrum coach for a couple of years and already been on his first Lions tour as a scrum coach.

Previously, not saying these were good just experienced, we had Wells who had been a Premiership winning head coach, Andy Robinson, John Mitchell etc.

Exiledinborders wrote:If Bristol are going to be awkward they have to hope they get promoted this year. If as it seems likely the AP and RFU are going to agree a extension to fourteen teams and no promotion they could find themselves not in the top twelve and with no friends when it comes to choosing the other two.

They are being awkward because:

1) RFU approached one of their employees without talking to the club (they asked permission from Sarries to talk to Gustard)
2) RFU are hoping, after forking out over £1m to Farrell, Rowntree & Catt in settlement, to avoid paying up the full value of Borthwick's contract.

RFU are treating them very poorly imo.

LondonTiger wrote:But B, he will not have day to day coaching experience.

As to MJ - perhaps you are confused becfause I was willing to defend his record in 2011. for someone who had no experience, and was lumbered with someopne elses backroom staff I felt then he had done well and it was a crying shame that the experience he had gathered has been lost from rugby.

Wasn't MJ a manager anyway and not actually a coach?