Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December

First topic message reminder :

            
Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby 
Friday 4 December 2015
KO: 19:35
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast

Live on BBC Heedrumhodrum & BBC NI

Referee: Ian Davies (WRU, 38th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Kieran Barry, Frank Murphy (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: John Cole (IRFU)
TMO: Alan Rogan (IRFU)

A. Head to Head

26 Played 26
17 Wins 9
9 Losses 17
0 Draws 0
631 Points 428

B. Form

Fri 3 October 2014
Ulster Rugby 30 - 0 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 20 February 2015
Edinburgh Rugby 17 - 20 Ulster Rugby

C. Teams

Ulster Rugby

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rob Herring (c)
3. Ricky Lutton
4. Dan Tuohy
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Iain Henderson
7. Chris Henry
8. Roger Wilson
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Rory Scholes
12. Luke Marshall
13. Darren Cave
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Peter Nelson

16. John Andrew 17. Andy Warwick 18. Wiehahn Herbst 19. Alan O'Connor 20. Nick Williams 21. Paul Marshall 22. Stuart McCloskey 23. Louis Ludik

Edinburgh Rugby

15 Jack Cuthbert

14 Dougie Fife

13 Chris Dean

12 Matt Scott

11 Will Helu

10 Phil Burleigh

9 Sean Kennedy



1 Alasdair Dickinson

2 Ross Ford

3 WP Nel

4 Anton Bresler

5 Alex Toolis

6 Mike Coman (capt)

7 John Hardie

8 Cornell Du Preez



Substitutes

16 Neil Cochrane

17 Rory Sutherland

18 John Andress

19 Jamie Ritchie

20 Hamish Watson

21 Nathan Fowles

22 Michael Allen

23 Blair Kinghorn

Don Alfonso wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
Thought we were comfortably better than Edinburgh

I obviously beg to differ, a draw wouldn't have been a travesty.

Not a travesty, but a surprise, for me. Superb in defence, but I thought Edinburgh looked very short of ideas in attack. Great kick for the try, but I was much more worried about Ulster giving away our traditional stupid, needless penalties than Edinburgh scoring another.

Still, good game.

Yes it was a game where Edinburgh badly missed a linebreaker like Visser but at least Burleigh and Matt Scott looked threatening when they got the ball.

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
Thought we were comfortably better than Edinburgh

I obviously beg to differ, a draw wouldn't have been a travesty.

Ulster were certainly the better attacking team - no surprises there - scoring 2 tries and should have got another 2. The only time Edinburgh looked like scoring is the one time they did.

Saying that, I though Edinburgh's defence was ferocious and dealt with a lot of pressure.

Ulster were deserving of their win but I don't think they would have felt massively aggrieved if it ended up a draw - it was an intense 80 minutes.

Solomons will be very frustrated with the first try - it came directly from our own scrum in Ulster's half.

Very good game. It was a tough game for both sides, and unfortunately it looks like Henderson, and Nelson, might be out for a while.
There were a few players deserved the MoTM award, including Herring, Williams and Henry, but great to see McCall get it. Great in the scrum (such a young player more than holding his own against Nel), and the tackle. He was everywhere tonight. Luke Marshall also had a very good game, I thought. Hopefully he can get back to his lethal best.
We should really have buried Edinburgh. So many chances to put the game away, but a lack of precision at times, and some great defence by Edinburgh, denied us the bonus point win. Not forgetting the disruptions with injuries. Edinburgh are a very tough side to score Try's against...

Ulster are improving, and it's very encouraging that we seem to be getting on top of the ill discipline.

Great to get the win. It might just prove crucial at the end of season. Tough games coming up. Hopefully we are more focused on the Connacht game, than the two Euro games.

Indeed. Brilliant defence by Edinburgh.

Ulster's scrum has been mince this season - it all changed tonight when players were chosen on the basis of form and hunger rather than reputation.

Two very average teams in difficult conditions- McCall dealt with Nel brilliantly, and when we do manufacture a line break our link play and supporting play has been much improved. But not a lot else to write home about... both sides look like mid table fodder and I'm dreading the visit of Toulouse next week.

We are improving long-term though. Les Kiss has made an instant impact in terms of discipline and not giving away those stupid penalties has made a difference, we're also looking a lot more secure on our own ball and were rarely turned over or badly slowed at the breakdown. Our biggest issue is the form of Jackson; he's standing too deep and playing too much by the numbers. The defence is drifting off him and we have little space in the wide channels to work in. He needs to come flatter and we need some plays in the 10 channel to fix the defence- we need him interesting defenders and we need supporting players on his shoulders. We also need the forwards to improve their decision making and link play, and be aware of when to pass or offload. Right now we are making very telegraphed carries one or two passes out, going to ground and repeating. It's all very blunt and predictable. But much of that will be sorted if Jackson can play flatter and we can give him better options in terms of players running lines off him.

I feel our defence has improved and that was a very good scrummaging performance, and the lineout was generally good given the conditions. Both sides lost a few but it was a very tough night for the hookers. So the foundations are definitely there for us to build upon.

A win next week is going to be tough, but its really necessary to sell season tickets.

Pienaar what a player that man is. This game needed control and vision and he supplied it. Edinburgh need a 10. Burleigh for all his attributes is not a 10 and tonight it showed - kicking into the wind and not kicking with the wind.

some positives for Edinburgh but the gaping flaws exposed.

Don Alfonso wrote:Indeed. Brilliant defence by Edinburgh.

Ulster's scrum has been mince this season - it all changed tonight when players were chosen on the basis of form and hunger rather than reputation.

Completely agree. What a difference a good front row makes! Herbst is a concern, and think he should be benched until he proves he's the better in the scrum. The starting front row really stood up tonight. Such a relief.

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
Thought we were comfortably better than Edinburgh

I obviously beg to differ, a draw wouldn't have been a travesty.

Ulster clearly the better side and Pienaar the difference.  we need a quality 10 ( I know Pienaar played 9 tonight) to control the game in the way   Pienaar did

Look at the stats - Ulster 600m to Edinburghs 300 Ulster had territory adn possesion as well

RDW_Scotland wrote:From an Edinburgh PoV I thought Scott, Du Preez and Hardie had very good games. Kennedy did pretty well given he had the half into the wind. The front row were disappointing - they desperately need a rest next week. The reserve front row did well when they came on.

We desperately need a 10 though, and the least said about Fowles' cameo the better!

Agree on those picks for stand out Edinburgh players. I thought Chris Dean was quietly effective as well, particularly in defence.

Matt Scott is rediscovering his mojo.

Also, did Helu and Fife touch the ball?? I know it wasn't a game for wingers but the Ulster pair were far more prominent.

I thought Alex Toolis had a great game and arguably outplayed Bresler (who admittedly just came back from injury).

The more game time he is getting the more he is growing into his role and the more he reminds me of his brother, remember if it wasn't for injuries to other 2nd row Ben Toolis probably wouldn't have developed the way he did last season!

Munchkin wrote:The starting front row really stood up tonight. Such a relief.

The thing thats gets me though is that McCall came into the team at tighthead a few years ago when we beat Leinster, looked solid and instead of getting a run of games he has been moved around the front row

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The starting front row really stood up tonight. Such a relief.

The thing thats gets me though is that McCall came into the team at tighthead a few years ago when we beat Leinster, looked solid and instead of getting a run of games he has been moved around the front row

Yeah, its frustrating. I think this is his best position though, and I hope thats all in the past now. He has an excellent chance to hold onto that jersey in my opinion. Black and Warwick are nothing special and he can surpass them and become our number 1 number 1.

It's telling that both props in the starting front row which did so well were pretty much frozen out altogether under Allen Clarke. I wonder whats going on with him sometimes. Kiss won't stand for that sort of thing though.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The starting front row really stood up tonight. Such a relief.

The thing thats gets me though is that McCall came into the team at tighthead a few years ago when we beat Leinster, looked solid and instead of getting a run of games he has been moved around the front row

He was solid, and you have to ask why he hasn't been given a chance until now? I agree with Notch; what has Clarke been doing? Especially when you think that McCall can play both sides of the scrum. He has decent hands, is good in the tackle and surprisingly mobile for his shape. Both Black and Warwick have lost form. Why is that? Black was always solid for us, and Warwick was the next big thing. O'Connor strangely disappeared after having shown real promise, last season. He comes on for his first game in a long time and does well. Clarke isn't alone in being at fault though. What about the head coaches? If Kiss hadn't have taken over, Herbst would probably still be starting all games, as would Black. Lutton or McCall probably wouldn't have made the squad, and we would most likely still be depending on players like Bronson Ross. I really hope there's a change in coaching staff next season. Kiss needs to be given free reign to bring in the coaches needed to push us on to a higher level, and break this 'jobs for the boys' mentality that must still exist in the Ulster set up.

Munchkin wrote:He was solid, and you have to ask why he hasn't been given a chance until now? I agree with Notch; what has Clarke been doing? Especially when you think that McCall can play both sides of the scrum. He has decent hands, is good in the tackle and surprisingly mobile for his shape.

This is the point I was failing to make, given that for a while we were looking short on either side especially at TH he should have been in before now.

I think he looked a nuisance at the breakdown at times too, he didn't win any turnovers but he was in there forcing Edinburgh to commit players and slowing things down

He was a nuisance. He was constantly looking for work, and constantly involved. Chop tackles, diving on lose ball, beating Nel up in the scrum I'm a happy Ulster fan.

Kyle McCall is one of the few positives this season. So is Nelson, but unfortunately I suspect he will be absent for a long time now.

Saw a rumour elsewhere Ludik will be allowed to stay on as a project player despite the signing of Piutau- this would be an exception, above the cap. I have to say I think that would be a smart piece of business whatever the arguments about us needing to reinforce other positions (we would also be signing a back rower). Ludik is capable of playing anywhere in the back three and at outside centre, and is solid in all of those positions. He is a very useful player to have in the squad.

Any updates about the injuries yet?

Notch wrote:Kyle McCall is one of the few positives this season. So is Nelson, but unfortunately I suspect he will be absent for a long time now.

Saw a rumour elsewhere Ludik will be allowed to stay on as a project player despite the signing of Piutau- this would be an exception, above the cap. I have to say I think that would be a smart piece of business whatever the arguments about us needing to reinforce other positions (we would also be signing a back rower). Ludik is capable of playing anywhere in the back three and at outside centre, and is solid in all of those positions. He is a very useful player to have in the squad.

McCall is a big round positive. The fact that guys are being picked on form is also a huge positive. Something that wasn't happening under Doak, and Clarke isn't getting free reign in deciding which forwards come into the squad. We also seem to have a very good coach for Ulster A, and that's something that I think is crucial for the future of Ulster's success.

If keeping Ludik means that we are not denied an NIQ slot for a forward, then I'm all for it. It makes a lot of sense to keep Ludik, if we can. I'm a big fan of Ludik because of the effort he puts in to every game he plays, and the fact that he is a solid player in whatever position he plays. I thought he had a very good game at centre. Players like Ludik gives us options, and eases the burden of injuries. The same is true for Nelson. At this point I would say Nelson offers more at 15, while Ludik offers more at centre, and both are equally valuable.
More than anything I want a test class backrower. Williams is a conundrum. He's is in top form right now, probably returned to his best for us (unlike a few home grown players), and a key Ulster player. If we were to keep him, would he maintain that form? Although some of his antics have had me seeing red, at times, I still remain a fan of his. At his devastating best he is a game changer, and exactly the sort of player we need. In that form he will prove a difficult player to replace.

I think he's a game changer against some of the weaker and mid-table Pro12 sides, I think he is found out against the very best teams. If we could trade him in for a test-class back row it would be a good piece of business.

He has been good recently but he's got to stop waving the ball around one-handed because any decent defence will target that and take it off him; he normally does a good job of turning the ball over himself when he does that anyway.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Any updates about the injuries yet?

Yeah, is hendy ok?

Notch wrote:I think he's a game changer against some of the weaker and mid-table Pro12 sides, I think he is found out against the very best teams. If we could trade him in for a test-class back row it would be a good piece of business.

He has been good recently but he's got to stop waving the ball around one-handed because any decent defence will target that and take it off him; he normally does a good job of turning the ball over himself when he does that anyway.

I would Williams, in his present form, would be a handful for any Pro12 side, this season. He's been found out only in that the opposition knows to chop him, to stop him, but even then Williams seems to be learning to deal with that.
If we get a test class backrow in place of Williams, I won't complain  I won't complain at all if we replace all of our NIQ with higher standard players, but I would be very angry if we replace like for like, or lower. All I'm saying is that if we are to replace Williams, it needs to be with someone who is going to offer us more.

Agree on waving the ball about. Probably cost us a Try v Edinburgh, although his game, overall, was very good.

I dissagree a little bit on Williams' ball waving - to be perfectly honest that is the kind of endeavor I WANT to see at Ulster,and IMO, the problem is the lack of players eager to join him (and the likes of Paul Marshall) in that kind of 'give it a lash approach'.

When Williams picks the ball up, draws a man into the tackle readies himself to offload for somebody to slip through the gap he created and nobody is there it drives me mad. Similarly, when Marshall takes a quick tap and bolts, and is 20 yards up the pitch whilst everyone else is still cleaning the slabbers out of their mouthguards it infuriates me.

The problem I guess is that northern hem game plans tend to be conservative and methodical, and when only a few play like that, rather than the full 15, we create problems rather than create pressure/tries/great viewing.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also, did Helu and Fife touch the ball?? I know it wasn't a game for wingers but the Ulster pair were far more prominent.

No, I don't think they did. This was a classic Solomons game for the wingers. Make your tackles, chase hard and compete for the ball in the air. The conditions were a factor but the offloading game we deployed against the Dragons went AWOL here. Understandable in the first half, but I thought we could have been more adventurous in the second.

Credit to the Ulster front row - this is the first time this season that a team has stood toe-to-toe with that trio. It was a good battle but Ulster certainly edged it. Interestingly when our reserve front row came on at 50 minutes it was 50/50 - all the scrums were a stalemate.

It is probably worth noting that the Dickinson-Ford-Nel trio must be pretty knackered. They put in a massive shift in the world cup, were given a week off, then have played every game for Edinburgh since. The fact that Solomons took them off on 50 minutes perhaps demonstrates that - he normally leaves them on until 70 minutes +. I seriously hope they are given a full rest this weekend away to London Irish.

Still, great effort from the Ulster front row

Do we know if McInally is fit? I'd quite like the Nel/Ford/Dickinson trio to have a complete rest this weekend, and put Berghan, McInally and Dell on the bench.

He's out until around the 6N.

Just noticed this!

https://www.606v2.com/t61509-challenge-cup-pool-5-london-irish-v-edinburgh-rugby-12-december

clivemcl wrote:I dissagree a little bit on Williams' ball waving - to be perfectly honest that is the kind of endeavor I WANT to see at Ulster,and IMO, the problem is the lack of players eager to join him (and the likes of Paul Marshall) in that kind of 'give it a lash approach'.

When Williams picks the ball up, draws a man into the tackle readies himself to offload for somebody to slip through the gap he created and nobody is there it drives me mad. Similarly, when Marshall takes a quick tap and bolts, and is 20 yards up the pitch whilst everyone else is still cleaning the slabbers out of their mouthguards it infuriates me.

The problem I guess is that northern hem game plans tend to be conservative and methodical, and when only a few play like that, rather than the full 15, we create problems rather than create pressure/tries/great viewing.

I think that's it - when it works its great but when it doesn't it's very frustrating, I do think, Marshall apart, his team mates are too slow to react, whereas Williams plays great heads up rugby and keeps defenses tied in.

Interesting that Edinburgh were targeting Touhy and attempting to strip the ball as he leads with the ball carrying arm.

Overall delighted to win that. Henry, Herring, Luke Marshall and McCall were excellent. Still a lot to work on though.

clivemcl wrote:I dissagree a little bit on Williams' ball waving - to be perfectly honest that is the kind of endeavor I WANT to see at Ulster,and IMO, the problem is the lack of players eager to join him (and the likes of Paul Marshall) in that kind of 'give it a lash approach'.

When Williams picks the ball up, draws a man into the tackle readies himself to offload for somebody to slip through the gap he created and nobody is there it drives me mad. Similarly, when Marshall takes a quick tap and bolts, and is 20 yards up the pitch whilst everyone else is still cleaning the slabbers out of their mouthguards it infuriates me.

The problem I guess is that northern hem game plans tend to be conservative and methodical, and when only a few play like that, rather than the full 15, we create problems rather than create pressure/tries/great viewing.

I don't mind that Williams holds the ball in one hand. It's more the frantic waving it about when opposition players are around him that annoys me. We were close to the Edinburgh line when he did that, and lost it.

I agree with you on the rest though. It can be very poor. Henry made a great break against Edinburgh, doesn't have the pace and nobody with him to pass to.