Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December

by **George Carlin** Mon 30 Nov 2015, 6:12 am

First topic message reminder :

Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December - Page 2 Ulster12

Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December - Page 2 Edinbu10

Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby
Friday 4 December 2015
KO: 19:35
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast

Live on BBC Heedrumhodrum & BBC NI

Referee: Ian Davies (WRU, 38th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Kieran Barry, Frank Murphy (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: John Cole (IRFU)
TMO: Alan Rogan (IRFU)

A. Head to Head

26 Played 26
17 Wins 9
9 Losses 17
0 Draws 0
631 Points 428

B. Form

Fri 3 October 2014
Ulster Rugby 30 - 0 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 20 February 2015
Edinburgh Rugby 17 - 20 Ulster Rugby

C. Teams

Ulster Rugby
Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December - Page 2 Michel10

Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December - Page 2 Michel10

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rob Herring (c)
3. Ricky Lutton
4. Dan Tuohy
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Iain Henderson
7. Chris Henry
8. Roger Wilson
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Rory Scholes
12. Luke Marshall
13. Darren Cave
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Peter Nelson

16. John Andrew 17. Andy Warwick 18. Wiehahn Herbst 19. Alan O'Connor 20. Nick Williams 21. Paul Marshall 22. Stuart McCloskey 23. Louis Ludik

Edinburgh Rugby
Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December - Page 2 Lindsa10

Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby, 4 December - Page 2 Lindsa10

15 Jack Cuthbert

14 Dougie Fife

13 Chris Dean

12 Matt Scott

11 Will Helu

10 Phil Burleigh

9 Sean Kennedy

1 Alasdair Dickinson

2 Ross Ford

3 WP Nel

4 Anton Bresler

5 Alex Toolis

6 Mike Coman (capt)

7 John Hardie

8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes

16 Neil Cochrane

17 Rory Sutherland

18 John Andress

19 Jamie Ritchie

20 Hamish Watson

21 Nathan Fowles

22 Michael Allen

23 Blair Kinghorn

by funnyExiledScot Wed 02 Dec 2015, 3:16 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:As long as Payne starts at centre and not at 15 I ain't bothered.....

I prefer Earls myself...

Or Fitzgerald at centre. Good footballer. Probably better than BOD, although not as good as Jonathan Davies.....

by **RDW** Wed 02 Dec 2015, 4:11 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:As long as Payne starts at centre and not at 15 I ain't bothered.....

I prefer Earls myself...

Or Fitzgerald at centre. Good footballer. Probably better than BOD, although not as good as Jonathan Davies.....

Did you know that Phil Vickery has retired?

by funnyExiledScot Wed 02 Dec 2015, 8:55 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:As long as Payne starts at centre and not at 15 I ain't bothered.....

I prefer Earls myself...

Or Fitzgerald at centre. Good footballer. Probably better than BOD, although not as good as Jonathan Davies.....

Did you know that Phil Vickery has retired?

Pity. Even approaching 40 he'd do a job for Glasgow.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 7:47 am

Looking towards the game, I'm not massively confident about this one. As GC says we've not won there since 2009 and have had some real pumpings too. Indeed the only Edinburgh player who has experiences beating Ulster away is Ross Ford.

Saying that, we should be a lot more competitive and I hope our strong pack and solid defence will lead to a close game.

I can see it being close to start with, with Ulster pulling away to win something like 24-16

by Pete330v2 Thu 03 Dec 2015, 9:38 am

I wouldn't bet on it RDW but I hope you're right.
Edinburgh used to be a bit a bogey side for us. For a while we just couldn't get a win. I can't help but feel that cycle of events might have come around again. Edinburgh look to be in fine form, as does Scottish rugby altogether. Ulster's form has gone the way of Irish Rugby's, downhill steeply.

The only way is up!!! Smile

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 9:51 am

We've already beaten you twice this season - and really should have won more convincingly at Murrayfield - but I just think the Ravenspan factor will be enough to give you a relatively comfortable win in the end.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:05 pm

Players not considered due to injury: Tom Brown (shoulder), Grant Gilchrist (groin), Roddy Grant (knee), Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (hand), Damien Hoyland (leg), Otulea Katoa (leg), Nasi Manu (neck), Stuart McInally (neck), Fraser McKenzie (neck), Jade Te Rure (knee), Greig Tonks (leg), Ben Toolis (arm), George Turner (shoulder).

Edinburgh Rugby v Ulster, Friday 4 December, Kingspan Stadium, k/o 7.35pm

15 Jack Cuthbert

14 Dougie Fife

13 Chris Dean

12 Matt Scott

11 Will Helu

10 Phil Burleigh

9 Sean Kennedy

1 Alasdair Dickinson

2 Ross Ford

3 WP Nel

4 Anton Bresler

5 Alex Toolis

6 Mike Coman (capt)

7 John Hardie

8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes

16 Neil Cochrane

17 Rory Sutherland

18 John Andress

19 Jamie Ritchie

20 Hamish Watson

21 Nathan Fowles

22 Michael Allen

23 Blair Kinghorn

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:08 pm

4 changes to last weeks team, leading to a weaker team IMO. The changes seem to be enforced by injury though.

Still a solid pack but that backline has become even less attack minded than last week - Kennedy, Fife and Cuthbert are a step down in an attacking sense from Hidalgo-Clyne, Brown and Tonks.

So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

by **Notch** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:13 pm

Ulster team;

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rob Herring (c)
3. Ricky Lutton
4. Dan Tuohy
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Iain Henderson
7. Chris Henry
8. Roger Wilson
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Rory Scholes
12. Luke Marshall
13. Darren Cave
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Peter Nelson

16. John Andrew 17. Andy Warwick 18. Wiehahn Herbst 19. Alan O'Connor 20. Nick Williams 21. Paul Marshall 22. Stuart McCloskey 23. Louis Ludik

Rory Best and Craig Gilroy are rested ahead of the European Cup. Williams, Herbst and McCloskey drop to the bench. And the invisible man Alan O'Connor, back from the dead! Very happy to see it.

Les Kiss obviously still getting a feel for the squad and rotating to keep everyone on their toes.

by Nematode Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:15 pm

It's a decent enough team. Pleased to see Fife back as he really needs game time (same with Cuthbert) and hopefully Kennedy will have a good game, looked sharp in his 10 mins last week.

by Guest Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:16 pm

McCall, Herring, Lutton, Tuohy, FVDM, Hendo, Henry, Wilson, Pienaar, Jackson, Scholes, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Nelson

Warwick, Andrew, Herbst, AOC, Williams, Marshall, McCloskey, Ludik

Herbst dropped from the starting XV. No surprise.

Henderson at 6 Yahoo

Scholes starting? Gilroy rested?

No Humphs Very Happy

Certainly not our strongest possible team, but still back us to win.

Great to see O'Connor on the bench.

by **Notch** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:16 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

Ulster struggle a lot more to defend against teams who use the full width of the park in my opinion. We are fairly nuggety around the fringes and won't be bullied.

In my opinion whether or not this Edinburgh team wins comes down to how well you control territory and our discipline. That was the issue when we played you at Murrayfield- not a lot of rugby played, but you held onto the ball and you controlled where the game was played.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:21 pm

Pleased to see Best, Gilroy, Williams and McClosky not in the starting XV, but that is still a strong Ulster XV.

A shame to see Henderson at 6 where he can be his rampaging best - especially when he's up against Mike feckin Coman!

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:26 pm

Notch wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

Ulster struggle a lot more to defend against teams who use the full width of the park in my opinion. We are fairly nuggety around the fringes and won't be bullied.

Sounds like you'll cope with us just fine then given that is Plan A, and we currently have no Plan B!

by funnyExiledScot Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:53 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:4 changes to last weeks team, leading to a weaker team IMO. The changes seem to be enforced by injury though.

Still a solid pack but that backline has become even less attack minded than last week - Kennedy, Fife and Cuthbert are a step down in an attacking sense from Hidalgo-Clyne, Brown and Tonks.

So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

I think the pack is stronger with Bresler in for MacKenzie and Kennedy made a really nice break against the Dragons which should hopefully give him some confidence going into this one. I see Fife and Brown as like for like really, so I'd say only Cuthbert for Tonks is a step down. I'd rather Blair Kinghorn at 15, who looks a real prospect.

Some units on that Ulster bench though - Herbst and Williams in particular. I think Ulster will shade this but I'd like a LBP from it.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 12:58 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:4 changes to last weeks team, leading to a weaker team IMO. The changes seem to be enforced by injury though.

Still a solid pack but that backline has become even less attack minded than last week - Kennedy, Fife and Cuthbert are a step down in an attacking sense from Hidalgo-Clyne, Brown and Tonks.

So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

I think the pack is stronger with Bresler in for MacKenzie and Kennedy made a really nice break against the Dragons which should hopefully give him some confidence going into this one. I see Fife and Brown as like for like really, so I'd say only Cuthbert for Tonks is a step down. I'd rather Blair Kinghorn at 15, who looks a real prospect.

Some units on that Ulster bench though - Herbst and Williams in particular. I think Ulster will shade this but I'd like a LBP from it.

I'm very much being picky here, but Kennedy's break last week was pretty much the first time I'd ever see him do that - he's been pretty slow and laborious all round when he's played this season. Fife is solid enough but is more suited to the kick chase tactics - Brown is much more of a livewire and more likely to create something from nothing. Cuthbert is, well Cuthbert!

I worry for our lineout - neither Bresler or Toolis are regular lineout callers.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 1:14 pm

I'm talking purely from an attacking perspective BTW

by VinceWLB Thu 03 Dec 2015, 1:28 pm

I can't believe this guy (Coman) is keeping Watson out of the starting lineup:

Other than that, very happy with the team selected (particularly the front 5).

by funnyExiledScot Thu 03 Dec 2015, 1:31 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:4 changes to last weeks team, leading to a weaker team IMO. The changes seem to be enforced by injury though.

Still a solid pack but that backline has become even less attack minded than last week - Kennedy, Fife and Cuthbert are a step down in an attacking sense from Hidalgo-Clyne, Brown and Tonks.

So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

I think the pack is stronger with Bresler in for MacKenzie and Kennedy made a really nice break against the Dragons which should hopefully give him some confidence going into this one. I see Fife and Brown as like for like really, so I'd say only Cuthbert for Tonks is a step down. I'd rather Blair Kinghorn at 15, who looks a real prospect.

Some units on that Ulster bench though - Herbst and Williams in particular. I think Ulster will shade this but I'd like a LBP from it.

I'm very much being picky here, but Kennedy's break last week was pretty much the first time I'd ever see him do that - he's been pretty slow and laborious all round when he's played this season. Fife is solid enough but is more suited to the kick chase tactics - Brown is much more of a livewire and more likely to create something from nothing. Cuthbert is, well Cuthbert!

I worry for our lineout - neither Bresler or Toolis are regular lineout callers.

This is when the leadership of Mike Coman really comes into its own. He can call the lineout.

Agreed on Kennedy, I do think SH-C is a better player. It's just that his cameo against the Dragons was the best I've seen him play in a while, and he is quick with ball in hand.

As you say, the selections of Fife and Cuthbert suggest to me that Solomons has set up a competition to see who can kick the ball the highest.

by des Thu 03 Dec 2015, 1:38 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm very much being picky here, but Kennedy's break last week was pretty much the first time I'd ever see him do that - he's been pretty slow and laborious all round when he's played this season. Fife is solid enough but is more suited to the kick chase tactics - Brown is much more of a livewire and more likely to create something from nothing. Cuthbert is, well Cuthbert!

I worry for our lineout - neither Bresler or Toolis are regular lineout callers.

In the pre-season game against Ulster Kennedy looked very lively and made numerous breaks. He normally throws one terrible pass per game but now he's not having to box kick so often I don't worry so much when I see him on the team sheet. However, he was terrible in the last game against Ulster. He lost us possession a number of times due to not getting to the ruck in time. As I remember, he only came on for the last quarter too so should have had the legs to keep up. Definitely prefer Fowles.

Disappointed to see Cuthbert over Kinghorn. Kinghorn has looked very composed for an 18 year old.

As for the lineout, Toolis started with Bresler against Munster and our lineout was a mess. They both started against Grenoble and there was a huge improvement. I seem to remember reading something that said he'd taken on making the line out calls.

by **Notch** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 2:33 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Notch wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:So looks like we'll be seeing more stick it up the jumper stuff from Edinburgh!

Ulster struggle a lot more to defend against teams who use the full width of the park in my opinion. We are fairly nuggety around the fringes and won't be bullied.

Sounds like you'll cope with us just fine then given that is Plan A, and we currently have no Plan B!

Not if;

a) Ulsters lose the kicking battle and let the game be played in their own half
b) Ulster are indisciplined
c) Ulster continue to fail to clear the breakdown effectively

Avoid those three pitfalls and we should win. If we don't, Edinburgh have a chance.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 2:55 pm

Well Belfast's forecast for tomorrow night is dry but with gale force winds - I suspect the kicking and territory battle will go to the team with the wind behind their backs each half. Whoever does best with the wind will probably win!

by **Notch** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 3:15 pm

Edinburgh will try to turn it into a game where the winner is decided by who can grind out the most penalties and I'm not sure Ulster have the nous to prevent that. But Ulster know they owe the home crowd a performance and they know they owe themselves better as well. I think we will get through it.

by **Notch** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 3:16 pm

Prediction;

Ulster 20-12 Edinburgh

by **rodders** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 3:17 pm

Ulster can't afford 3 loses on the bounce. Priority has to be a top 6 finish in the Pro12 at this stage.

by Pete330v2 Thu 03 Dec 2015, 3:40 pm

Alan O'Connor come in from the cold please sir. It'll be interesting to see what he has to offer after so long off the radar.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:00 pm

Big blow for Edinburgh - Grant Gilchrist is ruled out until after the 6N needing surgery on a groin injury that ended his world cup.

by madmaccas Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:01 pm

So Mike Coman is the new Kellock - not the best in his position but picked for his intangible 'leadership' skills. How can we keep Watson on the bench?

by des Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:14 pm

Solomons only really played 2 sevens through necessity after that Lyon game. I think we also did it against Munster near the end of last season and got mauled off the park. I've not seen him do it since then.

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:15 pm

I don't think we should go for Hardie and Watson on the same team, but I would like to see Hardie combined with Du Preez and Manu. Hell of a lot of physicality in that combo and a good balance.

by VinceWLB Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:18 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Big blow for Edinburgh - Grant Gilchrist is ruled out until after the 6N needing surgery on a groin injury that ended his world cup.

Yes a big blow for sure.

But with all due respect, would he even start with both Bresler and Ben Toolis firing on all cylinder?

by **RDW** Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:24 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Big blow for Edinburgh - Grant Gilchrist is ruled out until after the 6N needing surgery on a groin injury that ended his world cup.

Yes a big blow for sure.

But with all due respect, would he even start with both Bresler and Ben Toolis firing on all cylinder?

I think that is more a hypothetical argument just now given how long it is since Gilchrist actually played for Edinburgh, and also since Toolis last played! It also isn’t really the point.

We need more than 2 high class locks to get through the season and with Bresler, Toolis and Gilchrist fit we could have had real competition and the ability to rotate players – McKenzie and t’other Toolis providing solid backrup.

As things stand we have two fit locks – Toolis out until next year, Gilchrist long term and McKenzie (hopefully) only short term! If Gilchrist had recovered in time then he would have made up for Toolis’ injury and maybe would have solidified 1st choice, leaving Toolis to fight for his place on his return.

Bresler and Toolis were the form locks last season but that was last season - a lot has happened since..

by VinceWLB Thu 03 Dec 2015, 4:31 pm

Yes agreed, competition for place is really good to keep players giving their best every game and we do seem to be picking up a lot of injuries in that position. McKenzie's is listed as a neck injury which doesn't make for great reading.

1872 might be tougher than expected after all!

by funnyExiledScot Thu 03 Dec 2015, 5:40 pm

Really sorry to hear about Gilchrist. That bloke has no luck, and is becoming the new Rory Lamont.

by Guest Thu 03 Dec 2015, 7:38 pm

Not exactly a must win game, but must be close to it. These two sides could be fighting it out for 6th place at the end of the season o0
A big game for both sides, especially when the loser will have Ospreys snapping at their heels, and so expecting a real battle, and what type of battle will largely be determined by the wind, I think. Up the jumper, against the wind.

Still think we will win it because it's at home, but I am a wee bit nervous.

My prediction is 21-16.

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 8:39 am

I've just had a worrying realisation - who is going to be taking our kicks?? We don't even have a plan A if our goal kicker is rubbish!

I suspect it will be Jack Cuthbert, who is an all or nothing kind of kicker - it either goes straight through the posts with plenty to spare or it could go anywhere.

I'm not confident.....

by des Fri 04 Dec 2015, 10:17 am

Just imagine how worried would you be if Jade was playing.

by **George Carlin** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 10:21 am

I am worried for Gilchrist now.

What reason will he give Cotter to be selected for the 6 Nations if he has no/minimal club fitness? He has all the physical gifts to be an international quality lock but the time keeps slip-slidin' away for him and he has not done enough to date to convince me he is anything special.

He really needs and deserves some time without major injuries so hopefully this op will fix him for good.

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 10:24 am

George Carlin wrote:I am worried for Gilchrist now.

What reason will he give Cotter to be selected for the 6 Nations if he has no/minimal club fitness? He has all the physical gifts to be an international quality lock but the time keeps slip-slidin' away for him and he has not done enough to date to convince me he is anything special.

He really needs and deserves some time without major injuries so hopefully this op will fix him for good.

He is ruled out until after the 6 nations.

He is also only 25; so will hopefully still have a long career ahead of him.

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 10:57 am

des wrote:Just imagine how worried would you be if Jade was playing.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 04 Dec 2015, 11:00 am

George Carlin wrote:I am worried for Gilchrist now.

What reason will he give Cotter to be selected for the 6 Nations if he has no/minimal club fitness? He has all the physical gifts to be an international quality lock but the time keeps slip-slidin' away for him and he has not done enough to date to convince me he is anything special.

He really needs and deserves some time without major injuries so hopefully this op will fix him for good.

It does leave Cotter with an issue. Swinson and Ben Toolis would be next in line, but there are question marks surrounding them both at international level. Grayx2 and Gilchrist fills me with far more confidence.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 04 Dec 2015, 11:05 am

In comparing Swinson and Toolis I suppose Swinson is the more likely replacement for Jonny Gray (high tackle rate/workhorse sort of lock) whereas Toolis is the more likely replacement for Richie Gray (rangy lineout lock).

Nice simplified approach for a Friday!

I'd have Ben Toolis on the bench personally. I think he has further to go on the international scene than Swinson.

by **rodders** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 1:37 pm

Got to be honest, not really a fan of either Scholes or Nelson. Both are still young but are Pro12 level players at best imo.

Ulster have let much better players leave in recent years - Farrell, Whitten and Seymour.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 04 Dec 2015, 1:56 pm

rodders wrote:Got to be honest, not really a fan of either Scholes or Nelson. Both are still young but are Pro12 level players at best imo.

Ulster have let much better players leave in recent years - Farrell, Whitten and Seymour.

You won't win anything with kids.....

by **Notch** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 3:08 pm

Letting Tommy Seymour leave was the biggest recent mistake we've made. I've got no idea why some Ulster fans used to rate him alongside the likes of Conor Gaston or Chris Cochrane, he was always very good. Starved of chances at Ulster but has made those fans eat their words in a big way.

Whitten and Farrell are also very good players, but we can't accommodate all of the centres we've produced. Had we tried to hold onto all of them someone would be unhappy at not playing and want to leave/have left anyway. When Luke Marshall is struggling to get game time even with Olding and Payne both out it tells you something about the competition.

by marty2086 Fri 04 Dec 2015, 3:41 pm

[quote="Notch"]Letting Tommy Seymour leave was the biggest recent mistake we've made. I've got no idea why some Ulster fans used to rate him alongside the likes of Conor Gaston or Chris Cochrane, he was always very good. Starved of chances at Ulster but has made those fans eat their words in a big way.
[quote]

Was Seymour not offered a new contract though but wasn't going to be guaranteed the game time with others ahead of him?

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 7:30 pm

GC has messed up his match thread again - the game is on BBC 2 Scotland, not BBC alba Rolling Eyes

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 7:39 pm

Ulster with the gale behind them - need to build a big lead.

Very good defence from Edinburgh to srart with

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 7:40 pm

Scrum against the head Ulster!

by **RDW** Fri 04 Dec 2015, 7:42 pm

Poor set up for the box kick - should never have kicked that

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