606 Selects Englands EPS for 2016 6Ns - Take 2

First topic message reminder :

Name your 33 man EPS squad.
It must include 22 of the following players.
Keep any injured players in as they can be replaced later - but state who you would have on standby.

I will add up and produce the consensus next week.

Current Squad


Props
Kieran Brookes
Dan Cole
Joe Marler
Mako Vunipola
David Wilson

Hookers
Jamie George
Rob Webber
Tom Youngs

Second rows
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Geoff Parling

Back rows
James Haskell
Ben Morgan
Chris Robshaw
Billy Vunipola
Tom Wood
Calum Clark

Scrum halves
Danny Care
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly halves
Owen Farrell
George Ford

Centres
Brad Barritt
Sam Burgess
Jonathan Joseph
Henry Slade
Luther Burrell

Back three
Mike Brown
Alex Goode
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

Twelvetrees would again be my choice. Just to confirm this is not because he's the messiah but fills the hole the best at the moment. Just feel we need a playmaker there somewhere and I don't feel Goode can do this effectively at 15 without us losing too much from the back 3.

Has to be Burrell for me, even though I believe there are/will be better options in the near future.

Real shame to see Slade sidelined.

What about Farrell?

Get out.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Farrell?

As they say around here......."SHUDDDDDD UP" (my best TOWIE spelling)

Just don't go there, think RWC............ Wales.............last 10 minutes..................we might have been RWC champions if not for that experiment.




Okay a VERY big might.

With Slade out (and I guess Burgess gone), the guys we've tried at 12 and are still available are Barritt, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Farrell and Tuilagi. So out of those 6:

Farrell is a no, because he's not a 12.
Tuilagi is a serious doubt, because he's not expected back until January now (and plays a lot more at 13). So you can rule him out here if you wish.
To some extent, all of Barritt, Burrell, Twelvetrees and Eastmond are not favoured after their international outings to date.

If you don't like any of those, Hill and Devoto have both been around for a few years and could press for an inclusion.

This is a question and will remain a question until someone puts in a real run of good performances at 12 for England. Because there is so much to consider, current form, previous international experience, style of play, etc. people will always have strong preferences one way or another.

For me (assuming Joseph or Daly at 13), if we want a playmaker we should give Eastmond the nod. If we want a "big guy" in there, we should go for Tuilagi or Burrell if Manu's not fit.

I'd be looking at Ford, Tuilagi and Joseph for my midfield, and then if I felt I was lacking a playmaking option I would look at replacing Brown at 15 with Goode, Cipriani or even Devoto.

I would have liked Slade and JJ but given the current injuries, I think Burrell and JJ would be my combination if the 6N was starting tomorrow.

I knew that would get a reaction

"Divent be taakin sh1te man Geordie!"

No 7&1/2 wrote:Twelvetrees would again be my choice. Just to confirm this is not because he's the messiah but fills the hole the best at the moment. Just feel we need a playmaker there somewhere and I don't feel Goode can do this effectively at 15 without us losing too much from the back 3.

I agree for the need for a playmaker, but I wouldn't have 36 near the England squad at the moment as he has been very poor this season. He is slow to spot opportunities and invariable just cuts back in on his inside foot into contact whilst upright. He has butchered a number of attacking opportunities this season and he'd be taken apart at International level. I firmly believe this is just a slump in form, but he does need to refind this form before returning to England.

Ah Twelvetrees...all the attributes to be a top players...except for the application of those attributes.

Id rather have Eastmonds defensive concerns (and work on a defensive structure) than Twelvetrees.

eastmond was just so dire in his last 2 games for England I think I need to see an amazing run of form from him for me to think of him again. Not as if burrell didn't butcher chances as well. Maybe if Joseph can develop the playmaking side a bit more it could solve the issue?

Eastmond wasn't great (heavy understatement), but he was playing outside a Farrell who was completely short of form, confidence and maybe fitness too. Not the best place to shine. Twelvetrees has had many many chances to nail his spot and has never really been much better than "adequate", sometimes much worse. His defense is poor, misses too many tackles. His carrying is OK, but the supposed playmaking ability has rarely if ever been present at international level. Like GF, would prefer Eastmond, who would also give the option of an all-Bath midfield.

I persist that the Ford-Burrell-Joseph midfield showed plenty of promise last year. England created many more chances than any other team IMO. While Burrell didn't shine, is it possible he allowed the other two to do so? If you can re-create that, but get Burrell to cut out the silly errors, then I quite like the idea.

Twelvetrees has always been average for me. Eastmond has been very good and offered the worst midfield performance in a long time, so much so he was subbed at half time to stop the damage. I'd rather just go with average.

Burrell is playing better this season, he was never quick, but seems to be a bit sparkier than last year and is hitting some good lines, only thing for him to do now is learn to catch the ball

If push came to shove...id have a look at Sam Hill in the side and see what he can offer

Options
10 Ford
12 Hill
13 Joseph

Or Maybe
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Burrell

or
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph

Eastmond was next to farrell for those 40 dreadful minutes in NZ.

If Mike Brown had been in position to take that pass, I wonder if people would have a different opinion of Eastmond? I don't think I would pick him to be honest but it does seem as if some players are allowed many more chances to be average than others are. Twelvetrees seems to be incapable of passing properly, and from what I've seen of him for Gloucester, he isn't improving.

Going forward he's great, no problems there.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah Twelvetrees...all the attributes to be a top players...except for the application of those attributes.

Id rather have Eastmonds defensive concerns (and work on a defensive structure) than Twelvetrees.

Twelvetrees is not a test class player.

I'm sorry, I've tried and tried to see why he deserves to wear the rose and I just don't get it.

He just seems to assume his alter ego, Mr HandsLikeTits, whenever I see him play for England.

I must say about Eastmond, he may not be the answer but he is a much better player now than when he last played for England, and he had to play next to an out of form Farrell.  Also most of his caps were against the All Blacks, so not easy opposition.

George

I agree about Twelvetrees, ive said loads on here, he shouldn't be near the squad.

Eastmond...well I guess he has to be in the group being considered.

In all honesty I really don't know how Jones will take that challenge (finding the right midfield) on.

I understand Toby Flood is mostly playing inside centre for Toulouse, and regularly selected for the T14 team of the week.

Not available for 6N's unless Eddie decides to stir the pot, and, being 30, unlikely to make 2019RWC, but if he can be lured back to AP, he'd add a lot of experience to a fairly callow midfield in the short term.

I have little doubt that Henry will make the grade at international level but, while his break may not have been as bad as Cipriani's, he's got a lot of rehab to do and full recovery may take a long, long while.

If Eddie wants to build a system with a playmaker in the centres, he could do worse than looking at both Flood and Slade as alternatives, with JJ/Manu/ANOther at 13.

My preferred option altogether would be Slade at 10. That would solve a lot of things.

As he can play but hes a rock solid defender. Puts less onus of having a beast at 12.....

I with DLO on this one – broken legs are always serious injuries at this level. Cips took for ever to get over his and arguably has never quite returned to his best. Look at Morgan being rushed back. I’d be tempted to leave leg-breakers a year before considering a return to test level myself. It’s not just the physical damage, but almost as much a confidence thing. So I’ve discounted Slade for a long time ahead.

So the long-standing IC issue is still alive and kicking for England. Eddie should pick maybe 2 combinations at centre and just stick with them. Because the English dream of a world class IC around the corner just waiting to be selected is more of a fantasy. So let’s suck it up. Unfortunately this might include looking again at Eastmond and 12T (or 2-jubblies as I recently saw him addressed as). Or even Barritt if he recovers some form after the RWC fiasco. But please Eddie, don’t do a SL!

Barney McGrew did it wrote:So the long-standing IC issue is still alive and kicking for England. Eddie should pick maybe 2 combinations at centre and just stick with them. Because the English dream of a world class IC around the corner just waiting to be selected is more of a fantasy. So let’s suck it up. Unfortunately this might include looking again at Eastmond and 12T (or 2-jubblies as I recently saw him addressed as). Or even Barritt if he recovers some form after the RWC fiasco. But please Eddie, don’t do a SL!

I think that's what most of us are asking for now Barney.

I think we are mostly agreed on wanting a 13 who offers a real outside threat and an ability to release his wingers. At the moment that's Joseph and probably Daly as back-up given how well he's playing.

Then for the other 2 in the EPS we'd like a bigger ball carrier as a route 1 option. This will likely be Burrell or possiblyManu if he can get fit.

Plus the option of a second playmaker. This was of course Slade until his nasty injury. Now I'd personally give Eastmond another look.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I with DLO on this one – broken legs are always serious injuries at this level. Cips took for ever to get over his and arguably has never quite returned to his best. Look at Morgan being rushed back. I’d be tempted to leave leg-breakers a year before considering a return to test level myself. It’s not just the physical damage, but almost as much a confidence thing. So I’ve discounted Slade for a long time ahead.

So the long-standing IC issue is still alive and kicking for England. Eddie should pick maybe 2 combinations at centre and just stick with them. Because the English dream of a world class IC around the corner just waiting to be selected is more of a fantasy. So let’s suck it up. Unfortunately this might include looking again at Eastmond and 12T (or 2-jubblies as I recently saw him addressed as). Or even Barritt if he recovers some form after the RWC fiasco. But please Eddie, don’t do a SL!

What - have to pick lots of different center combinations as injuries and the ups and downs of form get in the way?

Ahh spoken just like SL. Injuries are a pain that has to be dealt with by a reasonable size squad. With the emphasis on reasonable, not an ever changing merry-go-round, or a search for the next best thing, or belief in an RL saviour. Form is a concept like co-incidence or luck – largely a myth. Immediate post injury form I’ll grant you – then I refer to my 2nd sentence.

Not trying to attack you its just I am sure that SL would loved to have done exactly what you have said.

It wasn't his fault that his choices managed to either get hurt or play themselves out of a place, and I am not sure anyone else would have attacked this particular problem with any more luck. One of the bigger mistakes at the RWC, playing Barritt, could be partly put down to be trying to be more conservative with his selections which is effectively what you are recommending.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If push came to shove...id have a look at Sam Hill in the side and see what he can offer

Options
10 Ford
12 Hill
13 Joseph

Or Maybe
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Burrell

or
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph

3 options I would be happy with. I agree that Hill has to be looked at. He's been playing 12 for Exeter and I assume well.


Think if Farrell starts then best to partner him with Care. That partnership worked well in the 2014 6 nations.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If push came to shove...id have a look at Sam Hill in the side and see what he can offer

Options
10 Ford
12 Hill
13 Joseph

Or Maybe
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Burrell

or
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph

3 options I would be happy with. I agree that Hill has to be looked at. He's been playing 12 for Exeter and I assume well.


Think if Farrell starts then best to partner him with Care. That partnership worked well in the 2014 6 nations.

Partnering Farrell with Care would depend on whether there is another kicker in the centres for me.

When left with the majority of tactical kicking duties in open play Farrell often struggles IMO. Similar to Ford I feel both start looking for length of kicks rather than placement when under pressure.

If we have a kicker in the centres to take some pressure off (which Slade out we probably wont) then I'd be happy to have Care partner them. If not then Youngs is the more rounded player IMO and accompanies them better. I'd also argue that Youngs is playing more consistently at the moment.

king_carlos wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If push came to shove...id have a look at Sam Hill in the side and see what he can offer

Options
10 Ford
12 Hill
13 Joseph

Or Maybe
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Burrell

or
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph

3 options I would be happy with. I agree that Hill has to be looked at. He's been playing 12 for Exeter and I assume well.


Think if Farrell starts then best to partner him with Care. That partnership worked well in the 2014 6 nations.

Partnering Farrell with Care would depend on whether there is another kicker in the centres for me.

When left with the majority of tactical kicking duties in open play Farrell often struggles IMO. Similar to Ford I feel both start looking for length of kicks rather than placement when under pressure.

If we have a kicker in the centres to take some pressure off (which Slade out we probably wont) then I'd be happy to have Care partner them. If not then Youngs is the more rounded player IMO and accompanies them better. I'd also argue that Youngs is playing more consistently at the moment.

king carlos the only potential of a kicker in the centres is if we picked any of the following, none of which are desirable:

Twelvetrees
Goode
Farrell

B.Youngs is a frustating player in my opinion - he can put in a very good performance but also sometimes the basics of a scrum half seem to go astray - like crabbing,pondeous service and kicking poorly. Care is guilty of that too but if Farrell is 10, I would prefer Care, with Youngs-Ford.

I wouldn't say there is much difference in terms of style except that Youngs has been more consistent than Care - both can spark something but on occasion the basic 9 skills of giving good quality service seem to elude them in my opinion.

Have to play the 9-10 combo that is most comfortable together. As Ford is currently in poor form, Farrell has edged ahead and that means a backline should be built to his specification as things stand.

I personally don't want to see Farrell in the centres again.

Cipriani may well be under consideration as well.

Its about getting a balance, and I wouldn't like to say decide.

For example Farrell balances out Eastmonds lack of size and perceived defensive issues.
Eastmond aids farrells "lack" of creativity.

Hill is 6'2 and 16 st. He balances out Fords lack of physical presence.

But what the best combo is....well lets hope Eddie gets it right.

Farrell was next to Eastmond when he was withdrawn at half time for England wasn't he?

Not sure Cipriani has done his international prospects any good. He's choked in two matches where a successful kick would have beaten the likes of Quins and Newcastle.

Sale director of rugby Steve Diamond:

"Let's be honest, we should have kicked the goal at the end to win the game. We should have kicked the goal against Harlequins to win the game so we're six points off where we should be.

Only you no 7 & 1/2 would want to see Cipriani back in the England side at the moment!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cipriani may well be under consideration as well.

As long as the opposition are all bright red and two storeys tall, we will be alright then.

Just saying he'll be up for consideration again beshocked. I'd prefer Jones to make a definitive choice and stick with it one way or another. Too easy to flit between players and not really getting any benefit.

Haven't seen a Sale game this season either I don't think so not commenting on his form this year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell was next to Eastmond when he was withdrawn at half time for England wasn't he?

That's true, but it was a year and a half ago against NZ in New Zealand.

Maybe its worth another look in less inhospitable surroundings.

PS Im not saying that should be the combo...just giving possibilities. Ive said above...I wouldn't be sure who to pick,

if you have another solid kicker in there you can take that off Cipriani.

Can any other backs kick? Why does it always have to be the FH.

Eddie must be a bit bored here in England alone as he's off to watch WussvGlos tonight... Might worry him a little for what he's let himself in for!

beshocked wrote:Not sure Cipriani has done his international prospects any good. He's choked in two matches where a successful kick would have beaten the likes of Quins and Newcastle.

Sale director of rugby Steve Diamond:

"Let's be honest, we should have kicked the goal at the end to win the game. We should have kicked the goal against Harlequins to win the game so we're six points off where we should be.

Only you no 7 & 1/2 would want to see Cipriani back in the England side at the moment!

I wouldn't mind seeing him.

You can miss a kick and not choke, every kicker out there has missed one sometime.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell was next to Eastmond when he was withdrawn at half time for England wasn't he?

third Test on the NZ tour? Thought it was Burns?

Farrell did play alongside Eastmond in a couple of AIs last year, but that was a version of Farrell who was desperately short on form, confidence, and maybe fitness, who pretty much everyone agrees shouldn't have been playing. Farrell this season has been much better, similar to the 2014 6N version who was excellent all-round.

yappysnap wrote:Eddie must be a bit bored here in England  alone as he's off to watch WussvGlos tonight... Might worry him a little for what he's let himself in for!

Pennell worth a watch?
Any other Wuss players?

Twelvetrees will rule himself out.
Sharples, May will be looking to impress.

Kvesic at 7.
Jacob Rowan?

Hows Stooke going? Found his form again?
Im trying to think of others.

May, Twelvetrees, Kvesic for Gloucs will surely at least be in Eddie's thoughts, as maybe Pennell for Worcs (though he's probably fourth choice FB at best).

yappysnap it's not as if Cipriani has a reputation as a player who is good under pressure. I think the bad has outweighed the good in his case. Neither Farrell or Ford are perfect and both have had their fair share of not performing good enough but both are far more assured than Cipriani.


no 7 & 1/2 sticking with players is fine if they are good enough.

Sadly Cipriani hasn't done anything of note to be considered as good as either Ford or Farrell. Only Slade's injury has given a glimmer of hope at 10. Injury to Ford or Farrell is his most likely way of being picked by Eddie Jones in my opinion.

Eddie Jones will have two very big calls to make on the breakdown conundrum and the centres - something that were in my opinion key factors why Lancaster's England didn't progress further.

Australia in particular brutally exposed England's deficiencies at the breakdown and Wales exposed England's baffling centre decisions.

beshocked wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If push came to shove...id have a look at Sam Hill in the side and see what he can offer

Options
10 Ford
12 Hill
13 Joseph

Or Maybe
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Burrell

or
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph

3 options I would be happy with. I agree that Hill has to be looked at. He's been playing 12 for Exeter and I assume well.


Think if Farrell starts then best to partner him with Care. That partnership worked well in the 2014 6 nations.

Partnering Farrell with Care would depend on whether there is another kicker in the centres for me.

When left with the majority of tactical kicking duties in open play Farrell often struggles IMO. Similar to Ford I feel both start looking for length of kicks rather than placement when under pressure.

If we have a kicker in the centres to take some pressure off (which Slade out we probably wont) then I'd be happy to have Care partner them. If not then Youngs is the more rounded player IMO and accompanies them better. I'd also argue that Youngs is playing more consistently at the moment.

king carlos the only potential of a kicker in the centres is if we picked any of the following, none of which are desirable:

Twelvetrees
Goode
Farrell

B.Youngs is a frustating player in my opinion - he can put in a very good performance but also sometimes the basics of a scrum half seem to go astray - like crabbing,pondeous service and kicking poorly. Care is guilty of that too but if Farrell is 10, I would prefer Care, with Youngs-Ford.

I wouldn't say there is much difference in terms of style except that Youngs has been more consistent than Care - both can spark something but on occasion the basic 9 skills of giving good quality service seem to elude them in my opinion.

Have to play the 9-10 combo that is most comfortable together. As Ford is currently in poor form, Farrell has edged ahead and that means a backline should be built to his specification as things stand.

I personally don't want to see Farrell in the centres again.

Beshocked - I'd add Daly to that if Joseph isn't fully fit. He has a siege gun of a boot from the tee and out of hand. It may not be the most accurate under pressure but if it's only being used as an alternative to take pressure of the main kickers then that is OK. It's just another exit strategy for the opposition to shut down which then takes pressure of the half backs.

I think Youngs has a better kicking game and slightly better pass than Care.

Care is better at picking short runners and getting his forwards over the gainline.

Both certainly have a tendency to crab. It is what makes them dangerous at their best as it keeps the fringe defence honest. It is also something that gets exposed at their worst unfortunately.

king carlos fair enough perhaps Daly should get a shot but who would you partner him with at 12.

Daly isn't as exactly a big man.

As a back up for Joseph I personally prefer Burrell - he fills the role that Manu has for England - a big powerful runner at 13 who can punch holes and cause issues. Plus in the 2014 6 nations he ran some great supporting lines, looked much more comfortable at 13 than 12.

Wouldn't want to see Burrell at 12.

beshocked wrote:yappysnap it's not as if Cipriani has a reputation as a player who is good under pressure. I think the bad has outweighed the good in his case. Neither Farrell or Ford are perfect and both have had their fair share of not performing good enough but both are far more assured than Cipriani.


no 7 & 1/2 sticking with players is fine if they are good enough.

Sadly Cipriani hasn't done anything of note to be considered as good as either Ford or Farrell. Only Slade's injury has given a glimmer of hope at 10. Injury to Ford or Farrell is his most likely way of being picked by Eddie Jones in my opinion.

Eddie Jones will have two very big calls to make on the breakdown conundrum and the centres - something that were in my opinion key factors why Lancaster's England didn't progress further.

Australia in particular brutally exposed England's deficiencies at the breakdown and Wales exposed England's baffling centre decisions.

Using a logic employed elsewhere on this thread, Cipriani possesses a Heineken Cup winners medal, which neither Ford nor Farrell do, therefore he is better.

Cipriani was pushing hard at the end of last season and should be in the mix. It won't be easy to get past Farrell and Ford but it is possible, especially with Ford not showing great form.