606 Selects Englands EPS for 2016 6Ns - Take 2

First topic message reminder :

Name your 33 man EPS squad.
It must include 22 of the following players.
Keep any injured players in as they can be replaced later - but state who you would have on standby.

I will add up and produce the consensus next week.

Current Squad


Props
Kieran Brookes
Dan Cole
Joe Marler
Mako Vunipola
David Wilson

Hookers
Jamie George
Rob Webber
Tom Youngs

Second rows
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Geoff Parling

Back rows
James Haskell
Ben Morgan
Chris Robshaw
Billy Vunipola
Tom Wood
Calum Clark

Scrum halves
Danny Care
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly halves
Owen Farrell
George Ford

Centres
Brad Barritt
Sam Burgess
Jonathan Joseph
Henry Slade
Luther Burrell

Back three
Mike Brown
Alex Goode
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

Sorry I should have said, Cipriani has done nothing of note recently. Cipriani won that 8 years ago. Cipriani's highlights reel is from 7-8 years ago....

I could also add that Cipriani hasn't really proven himself at international level - his one notable performance at international level was 7 years ago.

Andy Goode has a heineken cup winners medal too. Doesn't mean I would pick him to start for England at the moment either.

beshocked wrote:king carlos fair enough perhaps Daly should get a shot but who would you partner him with at 12.

Daly isn't as exactly a big man.

As a back up for Joseph I personally prefer Burrell - he fills the role that Manu has for England - a big powerful runner at 13 who can punch holes and cause issues. Plus in the 2014 6 nations he ran some great supporting lines, looked much more comfortable at 13 than 12.

Wouldn't want to see Burrell at 12.

I would happily see Burrell at 12 again if he is in form. He has shown at Saints that he can run the same good lines from 12 that he did in the 2014 6 Nations. When used at 12 in the last 6 Nations he struggled to get over the gainline largely because we only had two ball carriers who were strong on crash ball - Billy V and Burrell.

As we have seen time and again we need more ball carriers in the pack (even if only one more heavy duty runner) to take some pressure away from certain individuals.

Daly isn't a big bloke but neither is Joseph by any stretch. In the 13 channel pace is as important as size when it comes to defence. As we saw in the RWC when Barritt was put out of position at 13 he was left with a choice of defending narrow and getting outpaced on the outside, or drifting wide and exposing his inside shoulder.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell was next to Eastmond when he was withdrawn at half time for England wasn't he?

third Test on the NZ tour? Thought it was Burns?

Farrell did play alongside Eastmond in a couple of AIs last year, but that was a version of Farrell who was desperately short on form, confidence, and maybe fitness, who pretty much everyone agrees shouldn't have been playing. Farrell this season has been much better, similar to the 2014 6N version who was excellent all-round.

You're right.

Cipriani hasn't proved it at international level but I think he'll be in Jones' thoughts, still young enough.

I think Cips proved it at international level in his first start. He hasn't reproved it since his foot was turned back to front, though.

He had a more than decent game for a scratch England team against a scratch BaaBaas, though. Don't think he missed a kick, either.

Not sure where Sale would be with a less adept fly-half - his play earns him consideration.

Telegraph reporting Borthwick as a done deal for Jones's team with Gustard another in the frame.

Elite by name but going through the squad in the context of the debacle of the RWC I don't actually think many of the players are elite.

perhaps Watson and Joseph but everyone else is distinctly forgetful.

Gustard would be a great signing....

Gwlad wrote:Elite by name but going through the squad in the context of the debacle of the RWC I don't actually think many of the players are elite.

perhaps Watson and Joseph but everyone else is distinctly forgetful.

I hope all the teams think the same way as you...the 6n will be a canter...

Is there a 'Oh. Oh. Oh. Give me attention smiley'? Just out of interest?

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph reporting Borthwick as a done deal for Jones's team with Gustard another in the frame.

I think it will be key to have a strong attack coach to complement them but I like that set up.

Any suggestions?

king carlos England have had success in previous 6 nations with big no 13s like Burrell and Tuilagi, I don't see why England can't move back to that.

I think as long as you have balance in the centres then England will be fine. Burrell's success for England has been primarily as a 13 not 12.


As for Cipriani yes he shone against a Barbarians in an inconsequential game and he might even be fine cameoing off the bench when opposition has already been beaten but he's not been truly tested as a starter in a high pressure game for some time.

I agree he played well vs Ireland 7 years ago - but he hasn't yet shown signs of getting back to that.

It's silly really - despite England's so called depth we are desperately scrambling around for someone to fill the 12 shirt, our options at 7 aren't as strong as they could be, at 10 we are one injury away from Cipriani being in the 23 even though he's still got a lot to prove, full back is still an issue - brains or brawn.

England had struggled to find the right balance under Lancaster both in the forwards and backs. It's well and good having pacy backs but you need some backs who have vision too. Fast feet doesn't not mean quick thinking. Equally in the forwards there has been a distinct lack of balance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is there a 'Oh. Oh. Oh. Give me attention smiley'? Just out of interest?

We make any comments on a Wales thread and we get all kinds of abuse. Apparently this kind of thing is strictly one way.

so are we saying:

Lineout coach - Borthwick
Scrum Coach - TBC (Hatley in frame)
Defence coach - Gustard
Attack coach - TBC

There's comments and just the pointless stuff!

I like that set up so far Londontiger. Course I am a bit biased... Gustard isn't just a defence coach either, he would help with the forwards, him and Sanderson share responsibilities at Saracens at the moment.

Attack coach is a big one to get right though. Not sure who I would get - previously I said Alex King but I am less inclined to go for him.

Of course I would have wanted Wayne Smith but he's not available. Please no Rob Howley. Also please no to retaining Catt.

Thoughts on attack coach?

LondonTiger wrote:so are we saying:

Lineout coach - Borthwick
Scrum Coach - TBC (Hatley in frame)
Defence coach - Gustard
Attack coach - TBC

Why does everyone think Hatley is being considered?  Not just here but also with my mates back home.  Bath scrum is good against weaker clubs, but, for instance, were generally outclassed against Saints.  And this was not Saints best pack by any measure.  

Hatley does look like a forwards coach, though.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:so are we saying:

Lineout coach - Borthwick
Scrum Coach - TBC (Hatley in frame)
Defence coach - Gustard
Attack coach - TBC

Why does everyone think Hatley is being considered?  Not just here but also with my mates back home.  Bath scrum is good against weaker clubs, but, for instance, were generally outclassed against Saints.  And this was not Saints best pack by any measure.  

Hatley does look like a forwards coach, though.

There was a story I saw about an approach being made a few weeks back. Of course I can't find the story now...

For a scrum coach would probably be best to look at Dorian West though it's not just about a coaches' potential ability.

It's about how they would fit into Eddie Jones' set up and whether they would gel with the gameplan and other coaches.

Borthwick and Gustard are plausible because of their connection to Jones and each other.

Hatley was mentioned in the press and Mike Ford commented too. I would be happy if he stayed at Bath if England don't want him!

Gustard would be a good appointment, arguably it was off the back of his good work that Faz senior managed to blag a role last time. I had previously liked Alex King, although I feel the Saints attack seems a bit blunt currently. If Borthwick could knock some lineout nous into Lawes he could be some player...

The article in the Telegraph seemed to think that Jones was taking responsibility for attack himself, I'll see if I can dig out the link

May be a bit better as not sure Catt had much overall say in who he'd want in attack (bar getting rid of Cirpriani in a hissy fit!). If Jones is the guy with the title you'd suspect he'd want players who are all confortable in this aspect?

king carlos England have had success in previous 6 nations with big no 13s like Burrell and Tuilagi, I don't see why England can't move back to that.

And Tindall of course.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Hatley was mentioned in the press and Mike Ford commented too. I would be happy if he stayed at Bath if England don't want him!

Gustard would be a good appointment, arguably it was off the back of his good work that Faz senior managed to blag a role last time. I had previously liked Alex King, although I feel the Saints attack seems a bit blunt currently. If Borthwick could knock some lineout nous into Lawes he could be some player...

Im just not getting him at the moment. I just don't think he does enough. Of course that's just my opinion.

Id rather work with others who are great elsewhere and use Borthwicks knowledge to improve their lineout skills.

Ie Launchbury, etc. Im watching Kitcheners performances closely aswell...and Attwood.

Just wish we had a more concrete idea of what Jones and his coaches will be looking for; too much guess work and too many players to guess at!

Geordie, I agree and I seem to remember we had the same conversation a while ago! I want a second row who can carry and can run a lineout. Late tackles on flyhalves are great for a highlights reel, not really so good in a match. I still feel that if Lawes could really run a lineout he could be a real asset to England but that doesn't seem to have materialised.

Certainly at the moment I would have Launchberry, Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis in my squad. Whoever Eddie choses should give us a decent idea of how we are going to play.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Elite by name but going through the squad in the context of the debacle of the RWC I don't actually think many of the players are elite.

perhaps Watson and Joseph but everyone else is distinctly forgetful.

I hope all the teams think the same way as you...the 6n will be a canter...

The one team you can be sure will be thinking that the 6 Nations will be a canter is England. Maybe Japan too as Eddie might not have his visa by then so will be coaching by Skype…or he could get his mates at Goldmans to to do it i suppose.

Lloyd Christmas is back with us I see.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Geordie, I agree and I seem to remember we had the same conversation a while ago! I want a second row who can carry and can run a lineout. Late tackles on flyhalves are great for a highlights reel, not really so good in a match. I still feel that if Lawes could really run a lineout he could be a real asset to England but that doesn't seem to have materialised.

Certainly at the moment I would have Launchberry, Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis in my squad. Whoever Eddie choses should give us a decent idea of how we are going to play.

Bathman,

Lawes runs the Saints lineout when he is fit, they may not be the best in the AP but their not far from the top and Mallinder has had nothing but praise for the way he runs it.

The problems arise when you only pick two jumpers they are so easy to mark that no-one could be successful.

beshocked wrote:king carlos England have had success in previous 6 nations with big no 13s like Burrell and Tuilagi, I don't see why England can't move back to that.

They could move back to it but when we have Joseph as a clear first choice at 13 and Daly as a back-up who is playing excellently I think it would be shortsighted.

Burrell played well at 13 but I think most would agree Jospeh played much better still. I also think Daly could offer much more there than Burrell given he is quicker with better hands and footwork, not to mention he offers a long distance place kicker if Ford is at 10.

I also don't think that Burrell played as badly at 12 as many made out. I think many peoples criticism was that he didn't get involved enough in attack. Given that Joseph was playing so well outside him he spent much of the 2015 6 Nations running decoys to make space for JJ and our back three out wide.

As such he wasn't going to be as involved as we were used to our big centres being in the days of throw Manu the ball and see what happens. I don't think a better all round attacking game plan is really a fair criticism of Burrell though.

I'm sure others will state them for me but I can't remember too many things that he did wrong during that 2015 6 Nations.

I honestly thought Burrell was easily the worst performing back. Yes he did run those lines for Joseph, He also wore boxing gloves on his hands and his defense wasn't that great either.

I do know its not just about gain line and scoring tries, but (in contrast to the year before) he really wasn't good

Did Burrell defend poorly? I can't remember any instances where I thought he was out of place or at fault for a try during the 6 Nations.

He had some poor moments handling admittedly but poor handling seems to have been a curse of most our recent 12s. Barritt has never shown the same passing ability he has shown at Saracens - he was a 10 early in his career. Twelvetrees for all his talent forgets he has hands when he plays for England as well.

At 13 he showed good hands so I'm not sure why that is the case though.

I don't think Burrell is a perfect fit by any means but with Joseph at 13 and wings we need to get the ball too I think he is a good foil for our smaller backs in the meantime.

Hopefully guys like Stephenson and Hill can push through in the mean time.

LondonTiger wrote:Lloyd Christmas is back with us I see.

Thought Stewie had gone myself?

king_carlos wrote:Did Burrell defend poorly? I can't remember any instances where I thought he was out of place or at fault for a try during the 6 Nations.

He had some poor moments handling admittedly but poor handling seems to have been a curse of most our recent 12s. Barritt has never shown the same passing ability he has shown at Saracens - he was a 10 early in his career. Twelvetrees for all his talent forgets he has hands when he plays for England as well.

At 13 he showed good hands so I'm not sure why that is the case though.

I don't think Burrell is a perfect fit by any means but with Joseph at 13 and wings we need to get the ball too I think he is a good foil for our smaller backs in the meantime.

Hopefully guys like Stephenson and Hill can push through in the mean time.

I think Burrell blew a couple of chances in that hugely frustrating Scotland game which ultimately cost us the Championship. Probably not enough to condemn his international career, but it sticks in the mind.

If Jones does decide on Joseph and Daly in the 13 shirt and to go with pace out wide, it does raise the question of playmaker or "bigger guy" in the midfield. Personally, I'd like to see Tuilagi and Joseph, but with Tuilagi yet to put his boots on this season, the Six Nations may come a bit too soon for him. In which case, Burrell would be more choice of stand-in. He'll have something to prove after being left out of the Six Nations, and if he can improve his skills and distribution could be a very good all-round player at 12. I do have my doubts about him ever becoming a top class international player, but if Manu is out then I think he's the next best option in that role, certainly for now at least.

Hang on, Burrell would have to improve hos distribution but Manu just needs gametime? I've seen no evidence that Manu's distribution is anywhere near good enough to play 12.

Poorfour wrote:Hang on, Burrell would have to improve hos distribution but Manu just needs gametime? I've seen no evidence that Manu's distribution is anywhere near good enough to play 12.

If you want a 2nd 5/8th style 12 - then neither Burrell nor Manu are anywhere near the level required, nor ever will be. If however you want a Nonu/SBW style, Manu has shown good off loading and an ability to put a man away when running at speed - not to SBW levels of offloading admittedly but better than Nonu at the same age in passing and offloading. Not seen enough of Burrell but sure he could do it too.

Thing is we want the holy grail, we want the best bits of the Giteau style and the Nonu style. Throw in a dash of Doc Roberts too and then we may be happy.

Jack Nowell has to have played himself into Eddie Jones' plans, he was superb last night, if only he could play 12...

Cumbrian wrote:Jack Nowell has to have played himself into Eddie Jones' plans, he was superb last night, if only he could play 12...

shhh....

We were saying the exact same things about Slade and Ewers......

The well respected stephen jones of the times would like M Vunipola, George, Brookes, Cooper-Woolley, Attwood, Welch,Luke Wallace, Ewers, Itoje, Beumont,Cips, Simpson, Eastmond, Daly and Banahan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The well respected stephen jones of the times would like M Vunipola, George, Brookes, Cooper-Woolley, Attwood, Welch,Luke Wallace, Ewers, Itoje, Beumont,Cips, Simpson, Eastmond, Daly and Banahan.

Yeah, just read that article.

He would still have simon Shaw if he could.

And Sheridan

No 7&1/2 wrote:The well respected stephen jones of the times would like M Vunipola, George, Brookes, Cooper-Woolley, Attwood, Welch,Luke Wallace, Ewers, Itoje, Beumont,Cips, Simpson, Eastmond, Daly and Banahan.

As in the falcons flanker??? Surely not.

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Elite by name but going through the squad in the context of the debacle of the RWC I don't actually think many of the players are elite.

perhaps Watson and Joseph but everyone else is distinctly forgetful.

I hope all the teams think the same way as you...the 6n will be a canter...

The one team you can be sure will be thinking that the 6 Nations will be a canter is England. Maybe Japan too as Eddie might not have his visa by then so will be coaching by Skype…or he could get his mates at Goldmans to to do it i suppose.

sure!

Even Jones isn't enough of a wum to want a Newcastle player! Damien Welch.

Whos Damien Welch?

33 year old Exeter lock GF

Good old Stephen

Ah right....cheers Bam.

When is the EPS squad named.

I assume it will be straight after christmas.

It will be interesting too see who will survive Eddie Jones big Axe.

Certainly be interesting on who the new Captain will be.

Any one any idea?

I assume that was SJ's squad not his 15, and Cooper-Wooley at lock, Beaumont at 10 and Banahan at FB are interesting calls

Well there can only be 11 changes max so wont be huge changes...but might be a few eye raisers.

I reckon that we will see:

In
Hartley
Thomas or Mullan
Kitchener or Attwood
Kvesic
Simpson (or maybe Chudley as a bolter?)
Burrell
Daly

Out
Webber
Davey Wilson
Parling
Clark
Wigglesworth
Burgess
Slade

After that, Wood or Haskell will be under pressure if Eddie wants to have a look at a bulkier blind side. Haskell is once again playing very well for Wasps but what happens here will depend on what Jones wants in his back row I imagine.

Personally I'd get Pennell in for Goode but I think Jones will like the option of a play maker at 15.

The other obvious guy under threat would be Barritt, however with Slade injured I reckon he could just be saved. I think Manu should be left given he's been out for over a year. With Slade out we are left with revisiting Barritt/Twelvetrees (36 isn't playing well enough to demand it) or plumping for a youngster such as Hill. Jones is a canny enough operator to know that the best way to make his job easy will be early results. As such I think Barritt might just make it into the EPS if he can show form.

If Slater can show form then Kruis may be under threat as well.