606 Selects Englands EPS for 2016 6Ns - Take 2

by **LondonTiger** Wed 02 Dec 2015, 4:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

Name your 33 man EPS squad.
It must include 22 of the following players.
Keep any injured players in as they can be replaced later - but state who you would have on standby.

I will add up and produce the consensus next week.

Current Squad

Props
Kieran Brookes
Dan Cole
Joe Marler
Mako Vunipola
David Wilson

Hookers
Jamie George
Rob Webber
Tom Youngs

Second rows
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Geoff Parling

Back rows
James Haskell
Ben Morgan
Chris Robshaw
Billy Vunipola
Tom Wood
Calum Clark

Scrum halves
Danny Care
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly halves
Owen Farrell
George Ford

Centres
Brad Barritt
~~Sam Burgess~~
Jonathan Joseph
Henry Slade
Luther Burrell

Back three
Mike Brown
Alex Goode
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

by Geordie Sun 13 Dec 2015, 8:03 pm

Would you not have Ewers in Carlos?

by king_carlos Sun 13 Dec 2015, 8:18 pm

Personally I would instead of Wood, yes. Or possibly Itoje if he gets gametime at blind side and shows up well.

I was more predicting what I think Jones will do there than making my own selections. He's such a canny operator that he will know getting the media onside will be important from the off. As such I think he will put results ahead of anything else.

For this he may well want to keep changes to a minimum whilst still clearing out the dead wood. With Kvesic already likely to come into the back row (judging by his comments during the RWC this is probably a given) he may want to wait before making more changes there.

If Robshaw moves to 6 then there is also a chance that he will bring another openside into the EPS alongside Kvesic. Whilst that would work well for someone like Fraser it would make life more difficult for Ewers again.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 13 Dec 2015, 8:59 pm

Thought Ewers was out for a couple of months?

by king_carlos Sun 13 Dec 2015, 9:06 pm

I thought Ewers was a month so due back mid to late January LT?

I could be wrong though and from a quick look around online I can't find a confirmation on a time frame anywhere.

by Poorfour Mon 14 Dec 2015, 7:16 am

king_carlos wrote:I thought Ewers was a month so due back mid to late January LT?

I could be wrong though and from a quick look around online I can't find a confirmation on a time frame anywhere.

Unfortunately for Ewers, who deserves a shot, I think even mid January might be too late given the limited prep time. Or it could work the other way: Eddie might be canny enough to include Ewers knowing he can call up his pick of hungry young flankers from the Saxons if he's not back in time.

Either way, I suspect Ewers will get his shot in the summer now rather than the 6N

by Geordie Mon 14 Dec 2015, 8:06 am

Yeah I would have him in the squad and if hes not back in time you can still select a replacement.

by beshocked Mon 14 Dec 2015, 9:17 am

I have been critical of Launchbury but thought he played well vs Bath despite being on the losing side.

Joseph vs Daly was a very interesting battle - probably honours even with both having their moments.

Nice from an England perspective to see Ford knocking over that tough conversion, also he did pretty well dealing with the likes of Hughes and Haskell. He got knocked back a bit but came back. Still needs his team mates to trust him a bit more.

Haskell on the other hand I just feels isn't all round enough - his handling was poor and felt he went for route one too much instead of looking at the options round him. He was part of the problem that Wasps had - lots of huffing and puffing, plenty of metres, too many handling errors and not being clinical enough and canny enough.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 9:41 am

Simpson isn't doing his chances any harm either.

by beshocked Mon 14 Dec 2015, 9:55 am

no 7 & 1/2 not sure I agree. With the amount of metres and possession that Wasps had they should have scored more tries.

The 9 has to take some responsbility for the lack of good decision making in the opposition 22. Do you feel that Simpson was stretching the Bath defence enough?

Simpson is not much different from Care or Youngs in style though. That's his problem in my opinion. All like to run with ball in hand but suffer in the basic skill of good quick passing. Yes you could argue they keep defenders honest but they also slow down the attack.

Would you pick Simpson ahead of Youngs? I wouldn't. If Youngs or Care were injured then Simpson is basically a like for like replacement but he's not going to be doing things differently.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 14 Dec 2015, 9:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Simpson isn't doing his chances any harm either.

Most reports I have read suggest simpson, with Jones at the ground, chose the worst time to have his worst display of the season.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:03 am

Thought he was good myself. Silly knock on close to the line but other than that good. Think he's the form 9 this year (English) and wouldn't mind him starting vs Scotland. Youngs had a bit of a mixed bag vs Munster, lovely try but brain fade/not reacting for the ball being pushed over the line.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:11 am

Not saying Simpson should be discounted more a generalised thing - but I do tend to worry about selecting the "form" player. Waldrom is the form EQP no8, Ashton has often been the form EQP winger. Woudl not want either in my team though as they have shown in their international games over the last 4 years that their minuses outweigh their plusses.

Probably only me, but a proven international performer in decent form would stay ahead of an unproven performer in good form - as we have seen so many form players be poor at international level.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:14 am

True LT but there comes a point where sustained form deserves a chance, especially for a player who hasn't had one yet. He was starting to push strongly last year and has continued this. For me he's pushed ahead of Care and Wigglesworth.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:26 am

Oh no doubt for me that Simpson has earned a place in the squad. Then, and I whisper this quietly as Beshocked is back, how they look in training becomes important.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:27 am

Oh no you didn't...

by king_carlos Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:37 am

If Jones and his new back room staff are employing new systems (which you'd assume they are) then how players look in training will become more important than in recent seasons.

When a new coach comes in with as short a time span before a tournament as Jones will have prior to the 6 Nations they only really have three options with partnerships:

- Re-select prior international partnerships
- Back existing club partnerships
- Throw the players you want together in training and see what partnerships evolve quickly enough to select in time for game 1

by Alex_Germany Mon 14 Dec 2015, 12:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Not saying Simpson should be discounted more a generalised thing - but I do tend to worry about selecting the "form" player. Waldrom is the form EQP no8, Ashton has often been the form EQP winger. Woudl not want either in my team though as they have shown in their international games over the last 4 years that their minuses outweigh their plusses.

Probably only me, but a proven international performer in decent form would stay ahead of an unproven performer in good form - as we have seen so many form players be poor at international level.

Waldrom is an interesting one. He didn't really have enough of a run to show what he can't do. We all think he has limitations, and the fans don't want him in the squad. But can his form be ignored?

Whilst his rate of try scoring is unprecedented for a No 8, how is the rest of his game at Exeter?

by Exiledinborders Mon 14 Dec 2015, 1:31 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Not saying Simpson should be discounted more a generalised thing - but I do tend to worry about selecting the "form" player. Waldrom is the form EQP no8, Ashton has often been the form EQP winger. Woudl not want either in my team though as they have shown in their international games over the last 4 years that their minuses outweigh their plusses.

Probably only me, but a proven international performer in decent form would stay ahead of an unproven performer in good form - as we have seen so many form players be poor at international level.

When Ashton was playing poorly for England he was playing poorly for Sarries too. When he played well for Saints he played very well for England.

The mistake was picking Ashton when he was clearly out of form. Similarly it would be a mistake not to consider him when he is in form.

by Exiledinborders Mon 14 Dec 2015, 1:35 pm

king_carlos wrote:If Jones and his new back room staff are employing new systems (which you'd assume they are) then how players look in training will become more important than in recent seasons.

Actually it always seemed to me that training rated far too highly with Farrell and Lancaster. That is how Burgess was picked and Cipriani dropped. Personally I could not care less how someone trains as long as they perform. They could spend the training sessions smoking behind the changing rooms for all I care if they perform on match day.

by HammerofThunor Mon 14 Dec 2015, 1:42 pm

But you don't know how they're going to perform on match day without giving them a chance to gel as a team. And who do you give that opportunity to? They guy smoking behind the bikesheds or the guy busting a gut (assuming both have proved themselves in the premiership to get into the training).

by **LondonTiger** Mon 14 Dec 2015, 2:02 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Not saying Simpson should be discounted more a generalised thing - but I do tend to worry about selecting the "form" player. Waldrom is the form EQP no8, Ashton has often been the form EQP winger. Woudl not want either in my team though as they have shown in their international games over the last 4 years that their minuses outweigh their plusses.

Probably only me, but a proven international performer in decent form would stay ahead of an unproven performer in good form - as we have seen so many form players be poor at international level.
When Ashton was playing poorly for England he was playing poorly for Sarries too. When he played well for Saints he played very well for England.

The mistake was picking Ashton when he was clearly out of form. Similarly it would be a mistake not to consider him when he is in form.

Well Ashton was recalled after showing good form for Sarries, and was even bigger pants. Unless the entire attack is oriented around him he will struggle at international level.

by beshocked Mon 14 Dec 2015, 2:18 pm

Londontiger I agree that Ashton didn't perform at his best under Lancaster but is that the coaching or the player?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3357689/Stuart-Lancaster-never-gave-fair-chance-England-says-Chris-Ashton.html

Ashton isn't the strongest defender but it is not really exploited by opposition at Saracens, if they did then there would be more tries down his wing.

Unfortunately I don't feel like Ashton has done enough this season as of yet to be on Eddie Jones' radar. Needs some more tries.

Though saying that I think wing is very open. Still a lot to play for.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 14 Dec 2015, 3:08 pm

Gut feel watching Sarries this season, is that they have changed the way they attack a little. Rather than powering through the middle and using offloads and footwork, they are trying to create space and extra men out wide. Ashton's strength is his ability to read a break and support, it is not pace and footowrk so this change of style does not overly suit.

Of course wyles, who is scoring tries for fun, is not the fast elusive finisher either - however he is on the left wing and certainly Farrell and Barrit move the ball much better right to left than the other way. both also when running like to step off their right foot then straighten - this again works better right to left.

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 15 Dec 2015, 7:27 pm

I see Baxter is singing the praises of his front row, Auterac and Thomas, he needs to go back a week in time and see how they fared against Waller and Brookes.

I believe the current terminology is owned

by lostinwales Tue 15 Dec 2015, 9:13 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I see ~~Baxter~~ Ford is singing the praises of his front row, Auterac and Thomas, he needs to go back a week in time and see how they fared against Waller and Brookes.

I believe the current terminology is owned

No charge..

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 16 Dec 2015, 12:28 pm

lostinwales wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I see ~~Baxter~~ Ford is singing the praises of his front row, Auterac and Thomas, he needs to go back a week in time and see how they fared against Waller and Brookes.

I believe the current terminology is owned

No charge..

Cheers LiW, they both live West of Reading so I get confused, Bath used to be top dogs in the West Country, so I went for the top dogs coach.

by lostinwales Wed 16 Dec 2015, 5:17 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I see ~~Baxter~~ Ford is singing the praises of his front row, Auterac and Thomas, he needs to go back a week in time and see how they fared against Waller and Brookes.

I believe the current terminology is owned

No charge..

Cheers LiW, they both live West of Reading so I get confused, Bath used to be top dogs in the West Country, so I went for the top dogs coach.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 16 Dec 2015, 10:50 pm

Telegraph thinks Jones is leaning towards appointing Hartley as captain.

by Geordie Wed 16 Dec 2015, 11:12 pm

I don't think that would be massively surprising.

Though that does mean Jamie George wont start. Though in most threads we've either George or Hartley should start.

Whats Hartleys form at the moment.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 17 Dec 2015, 12:09 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats Hartleys form at the moment.

He's out until he has gone through concussion protocols.

by doctor_grey Thu 17 Dec 2015, 5:05 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats Hartleys form at the moment.
He's out until he has gone through concussion protocols.

Concussion was November 7. Currently still out but is in the latter stages of the concussion protocol. He had started the season in pretty good form.

by beshocked Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:19 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph thinks Jones is leaning towards appointing Hartley as captain.

I thought April Fool's Day was in April....

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:42 am

So this will be the first mistake Jones has made then, not giving a chance to George as a starter straight away?

by BamBam Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:47 am

I can just see the next crusade starting already

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:49 am

Given what LT was suggesting about Hartleys concussion it may all be moot.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:55 am

Jim Mallinder 16th December wrote:"Dylan's doing quite a lot of training, but he's not 100 percent," Jim Mallinder, the Northampton director of rugby, was quoted as saying by The Times.

"Until he's reporting that he feels completely back to normal, we won't rush him back into the team.

"Most of the time he's fine, he can run, lift weights, but sometimes after a heavy training session he doesn't feel 100 percent right. We're optimistic that it's not going to be longterm."

by beshocked Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:55 am

Yes it could well be....

With a clean slate, a fresh start you shouldn't make a controversial divisive appointment.

If Hartley is made captain he will be unshiftable bar injury, he was already unshiftable under Lancaster but this will make him even more so if that's even possible.

It is dangerous to rely so heavily on one player - Lancaster fell into that trap, Jones could be doing the same if he picks Hartley as captain.

Championship winning teams are about strength in depth. England won the RWC partly because they had great strength in depth.

The 2003 3rd choice 9 was first choice for Ashton in the 2007 RWC final!

It shows a lack of strength in depth when England still had to rely on Nick Easter in the backrow.

I am not saying that Hartley should be thrown on the scrap heap but it's time that England give someone else a chance to start at hooker other than T.Youngs and Hartley.

by BamBam Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:56 am

Aren't we trying to win the 6N, and as such should be picking the best players ? Not "someone other than Youngs and Hartley"

I'd very much like George to get a go, and for me its between him and Hartley because they fit the mould of the type of hooker I prefer (nothing personal against Youngs, but just my preference!)

But he has to prove he is playing better than both of them to Eddie Jones, at the moment Hartley is out, but Youngs has been playing well too

by **LondonTiger** Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:58 am

You do not see the 25-30 minutes per game you get as replacement hooker as a good way to introduce George to international rugby. George who, if you remember, was only a starter for Sarries in the second half of last season because Brits was injured.

by Poorfour Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:01 am

I can't see Hartley as more than a stop gap as captain. He's pretty much the only experienced candidate if Jones wants a break from the past but isn't yet ready to appoint a long term captain.

I would expect him to be captain - if fit - for the 6N and maybe the summer tour but for a younger, longer term option to be selected before we get to the AIs.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:03 am

Given the competition in England is always going to be strong and depth you could argue needs to be everywhere any choice could be seen as bad. The only other guy really nailed on in the pack is Launchbury. Then you'd probably be looking at Ben Youngs, but the smae thing could be pointed at him blocking someone like Simpson who has been great in the Prem last year and this.

by beshocked Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:17 am

Londontiger no I don't. George should be starting now. You learn more from being a starter as George has done at Saracens.

Inaccurate. George started almost every single game last season if not all - not the 2nd half, the whole season. Yes he was picked because Brits was injured but Brits is 2nd fiddle to him now.This is because George started games which accelerated his development.

George was named in numerous best XVs of the AP season. He was joint top tackler in the ERCC last season.

Bambam George is currently starting hooker for the form side in Europe. His lineout stats are strong.

no 7 & 1/2 Simpson offers nothing extra compared to Youngs and Care.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:23 am

Simpson has been excellent over the last 12 to 18 months though. I think he's in line to be capped surely?

by BamBam Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:31 am

Fair enough, I guess we'll see who Eddie Jones goes with.

I trust you'll be backing the new coach's ability to make his decision? After all beshocked, you've already said you think he's the right man

by **LondonTiger** Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:31 am

Capped again you mean 7.5.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:34 am

Nice catch LT, Georgia eh. Forgot about that I'll have to admit. Still think he's improved so much in the last year. His passing looks good, obviously still has the electric pace, playing well. Think he'd be a great option off the bench.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:35 am

BamBam wrote:Fair enough, I guess we'll see who Eddie Jones goes with.

I trust you'll be backing the new coach's ability to make his decision? After all beshocked, you've already said you think he's the right man

Hmm, what do you think?

If Jones and Borthwick select Hartley as skipper and do not have Itoje on the bench will Beshocked perhaps agree that the coaches, who as you say he claims to trust, are perhaps correct. Or will we get the toys being thrown out of the pram?

As it goes I can see the logic of starting Hartley with George on the bench. It is the best way to be introduced to test match rugby. However I do not like having a hooker as skipper. Along with props and SHs they tend to be replaced with plenty of time to go - so you still need someone to take over the reins.

by doctor_grey Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Simpson has been excellent over the last 12 to 18 months though. I think he's in line to be capped surely?

Given a choice between Simpson and Wiggly....well, there is no choice. I don't see Wiggly as an international. Except in an international box kick competition. Simpson has earned his shot.

by doctor_grey Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:As it goes I can see the logic of starting Hartley with George on the bench. It is the best way to be introduced to test match rugby. However I do not like having a hooker as skipper. Along with props and SHs they tend to be replaced with plenty of time to go - so you still need someone to take over the reins.

That's a good point abut the front row being replaced - really in almost every game. It seems to virtually limit the captain role to lock or back row, unless there is a truly unusual player in the halfbacks or centres.

As an aside, I find it truly annoying that like magic at the 60 minute mark some coaches replace the entire front row almost as if they would turn into pumpkins if they stayed on past 60 minutes.

by BamBam Thu 17 Dec 2015, 10:48 am

Its a funny one, I can't remember back that far, but what did SA do with John Smit before he moved to tighthead?

I guess it is manageable, Creevy captains Argentina then comes off, Moore was doing similar for Australia too

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