606 Selects Englands EPS for 2016 6Ns - Take 2

First topic message reminder :

Name your 33 man EPS squad.
It must include 22 of the following players.
Keep any injured players in as they can be replaced later - but state who you would have on standby.

I will add up and produce the consensus next week.

Current Squad


Props
Kieran Brookes
Dan Cole
Joe Marler
Mako Vunipola
David Wilson

Hookers
Jamie George
Rob Webber
Tom Youngs

Second rows
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Geoff Parling

Back rows
James Haskell
Ben Morgan
Chris Robshaw
Billy Vunipola
Tom Wood
Calum Clark

Scrum halves
Danny Care
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly halves
Owen Farrell
George Ford

Centres
Brad Barritt
Sam Burgess
Jonathan Joseph
Henry Slade
Luther Burrell

Back three
Mike Brown
Alex Goode
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

king_carlos wrote:With May hobbling of today looking in bad shape and I think Nowell will definitely feature on the left wing. It could also open the door to Daly as a utility back on the bench if Joseph is fit to start.

It's pleasing to see Youngs and Care both firing at the same time too. Now we just need Ford to fire as well.

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Hill
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

21.Care 22.Ford 23.Daly

I'd be very happy with that heading into our first 6 Nations game.

All good players, but as a group it lacks play-makers. We all saw how exposed Ford was in the WC. Farrell is a better player than Ford, but we still need a second passing and kicking option in the midfield. As a minimum Daly needs to start (I don't think Joseph is playing well enough to be able to feel hard done-by anyway). Brown has the aggression Jones is supposed to want, but I think it's time to move on.

On the long-term option being debated: Watson is a fullback, and Nowell is a winger/13. It seems pretty obvious Watson will end up as the England FB in the medium term.

With Harrison and Kvesic playing well, Fraser being fit, and O'Connor being a fourth option, suddenly open-side doesn't look so bad.

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:With May hobbling of today looking in bad shape and I think Nowell will definitely feature on the left wing. It could also open the door to Daly as a utility back on the bench if Joseph is fit to start.

It's pleasing to see Youngs and Care both firing at the same time too. Now we just need Ford to fire as well.

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Hill
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

21.Care 22.Ford 23.Daly

I'd be very happy with that heading into our first 6 Nations game.

All good players, but as a group it lacks play-makers. We all saw how exposed Ford was in the WC. Farrell is a better player than Ford, but we still need a second passing and kicking option in the midfield. As a minimum Daly needs to start (I don't think Joseph is playing well enough to be able to feel hard done-by anyway). Brown has the aggression Jones is supposed to want, but I think it's time to move on.

On the long-term option being debated: Watson is a fullback, and Nowell is a winger/13. It seems pretty obvious Watson will end up as the England FB in the medium term.

I don't think our current players require a second play maker in the centre for how they best play. Our current backs look best attacking the wide channels. With Manu out and Burrell needing a hand transplant we don't have the centres to play a route one game through our backs.

We do however have two exciting 13s who are very dangerous in the wide channels and a group of young wingers who are also very dangerous in space. IMO our attack should be looking to use more carriers in the pack to do the hard work getting over the gain line. Then once we have room priority 1 should be getting the ball in Joseph/Daly's hands at 13 and letting them run with their wingers.

Give our wingers license to roam off their wings to join attacks on either side of the field and just get them running lines of our outside centre along with the full back.

For this we don't need a second playmaker in the back-line. We just need centres who have the basic distribution to shift the ball smoothly when needed. Hill has this as well as strong carrying IMO hence why I'm keen for him to get a chance. Daly and Joseph have good hands as well. Daly especially is very good at picking out a pass whilst running at full tilt.

As for Ford being exposed in the RWC, having Care and Youngs on good form will help with this. Both are playmakers who are very good at getting forwards running of them. Give them a pack that doesn't almost solely rely on Billy for carrying and we should be fine. Ford has always struggled when his forwards are going forwards, at the RWC they weren't.

Brown has been in poor form since coming back from England. Seems to be trying too hard. Worryingly in the BG he dropped a number of simple high balls and lacked his usual penetration.

I don't entirely agree, Yappy, though he's definitely not at his best

Hopefully he can put that behind him if he's picked.

Brown gave away the pen that cost England the game v Wales. Added to which he showed himself up as a petulant troublemaker. England must have better alternatives.

yappysnap wrote:Brown has been in poor form since coming back from England. Seems to be trying too hard. Worryingly in the BG he dropped a number of simple high balls and lacked his usual penetration.

He was less solid than usual under the high ball in the BG but I honestly thought this was down to good chasing by Gloucester, especially Sharples. This aside I thought that Brown showed the sign of a very good player by managing to make telling contributions even when not at his best. The offload for Chisholms try was fantastic.

I've been really impressed by Sharples when I've seen him this season. He has really improved his all round game. I'd say that Nowell, Watson, Roko and probably Ashton are ahead of him right now but with May and Wade injured he should be in-line for a deserved Saxons place.

Brown is just a class act, I've no doubt he'd up his game once on the International scene. I can't recall him having a bad game for England in years.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brown is just a class act, I've no doubt he'd up his game once on the International scene. I can't recall him having a bad game for England in years.

Remedial class perhaps.

Cockerill's come out saying he won't release Manu to England unless he's completely fit.

Tbh we never expected him to be back for the 6N's, and I think that confirms it. But it would be nice if he could get a run of games under his belt ready for the summer tour.

If their (still) on form our backline could look a bit old school in Oz with guys like Care, Ashton, Foden and Manu all back in there. Of course it could also be almost uncapped with players like Wade, Daly, Hill and Simpson all in.

Manu should hopefully be back fully training in a couple of weeks, I imagine he'll be eased in gently

I heard Manu was back fully training 3 weeks ago.

I have said before though, he should not be considered even for the summer tour. Let him get back to fully fit, playing regular and explosively for Tigers and see if he might make the AI's..if not then he is an option for the following 6n.

With Daly, Nowell and JJ potential 13's there is simply no need to risk him further injury by rushing him back.

I hope they focus on Kvesic and Fraser.

I know they'd fit the rules.... but I'm just not happy with O'Connor or Harrison being selected...likewise Nathan Hughes come the summer.

They are different to Ewers in my post above before anyone says anything!

England are already a laughing stock after the wold cup...and we would be mocked bringing yet more foreigners in to the team.

Harrison spent the latter stages of his development in the Saints academy I believe? He qualifies through his father but he may qualify through other criteria as well given he moved quite early.

I'm not sure if he came over prior to or after finishing school but I'm fairly certain he was in the Saints academy at least briefly. He has also only played senior/professional rugby in England which is clearly distinguished from someone such as O'Connor who had played 6 years of professional rugby in NZ prior to moving and qualifies through his grandma.

Like many here I would like to see the rules tightened.  Five years residency and limited only to parents' nationality would make more sense.

However if these players are deemed English qualified and yet not acceptable, they are in a way taking the places of players who might be EQ and acceptable.

I think Kvesic is in with a good shout for the 6Ns at 7 and if he's going to start him then I would rather we had a young understudy to him that way we are investing time in the future as well, a la a recent u20's graduate like Clifford.

I read somewhere that Kvesic was in the opposition team to Sam Cane of NZ when they played in the u20's final. One has 2 caps the other has nearly 30 and has captained his country in RWC games.

And this is the same for all positions. I like the way both Haskell and Robshaw have come back from the world cup and would take either in the squad right now at 6, although I would question the need for both in the EPS. Short term I get it with injuries to Ewers but longer term no.

king_carlos wrote:Harrison spent the latter stages of his development in the Saints academy I believe? He qualifies through his father but he may qualify through other criteria as well given he moved quite early.

I'm not sure if he came over prior to or after finishing school but I'm fairly certain he was in the Saints academy at least briefly. He has also only played senior/professional rugby in England which is clearly distinguished from someone such as O'Connor who had played 6 years of professional rugby in NZ prior to moving and qualifies through his grandma.

Harrison came over here about 5 years ago in order to play professional rugby,he went straight into Saints academy. He has an English father so he qualifies on two grounds residency and parentage. Tomorrow will be a test, if he can repeat his recent form against Chiefs I will be a happy bunny as should Eddie J.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Harrison spent the latter stages of his development in the Saints academy I believe? He qualifies through his father but he may qualify through other criteria as well given he moved quite early.

I'm not sure if he came over prior to or after finishing school but I'm fairly certain he was in the Saints academy at least briefly. He has also only played senior/professional rugby in England which is clearly distinguished from someone such as O'Connor who had played 6 years of professional rugby in NZ prior to moving and qualifies through his grandma.

Harrison came over here about 5 years ago in order to play professional rugby,he went straight into Saints academy. He has an English father so he qualifies on two grounds residency and parentage. Tomorrow will be a test, if he can repeat his recent form against Chiefs I will be a happy bunny as should Eddie J.

Cheers WPI. I must admit that I have reservations when players move purely for a pro contract then qualify due to residency. It's just feels off slightly for someone to represent a country they pften only came to for a wage.

I have little issue with the parent rule however (the granny rule is a different story) though so am happy with Harrison representing us if good enough. On recent showings he may well be too. It will be interesting to see if he has leapfrogged is Saints teammates Wood and Clark in Eddies thoughts when he names his squads.

Harrison certainly has something about him, he's something special. I like Kvesic and Fraser a lot but I'm unsure they'll shine on the Int stage. Harrison certainly brings the hard carrying and pace we've missed in the backrow.

It's crazy how we've had so few genuine options at 7 and now we have Kvesic, O'Connor, Fraser and Harrison all impressing.

Ok again I wasn't aware Harrison had an English Parent.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Harrison certainly has something about him, he's something special. I like Kvesic and Fraser a lot but I'm unsure they'll shine on the Int stage. Harrison certainly brings the hard carrying and pace we've missed in the backrow.

It's crazy how we've had so few genuine options at 7 and now we have Kvesic, O'Connor, Fraser and Harrison all impressing.

Sorry Marra just cant accept him. Clifford might not be a 7 but id rather work on him than O'Connor.

Id rather have Mark WIlson at 7.

Yea O'Connor seems a bit wrong but Harrison has developed himself here since he was 17/18.

Well I'm happy to be corrected on Harrison, I thought he was just another foreigner.

I just feel we have to be careful. It seems every player we're touting these days is from somewhere else....some with better claims than others...but still foreign.

Hughes - 3 year residency Fijian
O'Connor - Grandparent Rule Kiwi
Ewers - Zimbabwean with 1 English parent. Been here since he was about 16
Harrison - Kiwi with 1 English parent, been here since he was about 17.

Add them to Barritt, Hartley, Billy V, Mako V, etc and that's a fine mix of accents

Are there any English players

Tom Youngs?

oh Sgt ..... you didn't..

Jonny May will miss the 6Ns with a bad knee injury picked up against Quins.

So Nowell and Watson starting? And will that injury see Roko or Ashton get a chance?

Or more left field, play Daly on the wing to make the most of his kicking, and keep JJ at 13.

Nowell and Watson on the wings then.

With all due respect to Brown, I would not mind seeing a back three of Watson, Nowell and Roko.

I can see that CB but Brown has been one of the best players and is a fighter, and has some experience.

We may well see that in the second half of some games as Eddie has a look at a few combos.