The Pro12 teams need to do something or else.

Pro12 teams will not be able to compete with this, something needs to be doen, and done fast. There will be no decent players in the Pro12 at this rate, Rhys Priestland is earning 290K a year at bath, George North 300K at Northampton how are we supposed to compete with that ? I mean come on, Bath already had George Ford, I doubt Priestland will be a bench warmer on that money. Also news that teams are chasing the likes of Madigan, all our best players will be in France or England before long. Take a look at the money being thrown around in the Aviva:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-set-earn-staggering-10560435

What should the Pro12 teams do?

Chunky Norwich wrote:What should the Pro12 teams do?

They all need to get together and see what the best thing to do with the league for their own futures. The Pro12 is on the cusp now, it can only go one of two ways, into oblivion, or onto bigger and better things.

You mention that something needs to be done NOW, so how can the Pro12 immediately go on to bigger and better things to stop the things you mention in the opening post LD?

Maybe that should read; 'The Regions need to do something quickly or else', but then the WRU and the Regions are doing something by bringing back players on DC's.

The only thing interesting about that article is how much some of those players are getting paid. £390k for afoa!

Chunky Norwich wrote:You mention that something needs to be done NOW, so how can the Pro12 immediately go on to bigger and better things to stop the things you mention in the opening post LD?

If I knew that I would not be working for myself. I would be in the high offices of the ivory tower that is the Pro12. The Pro12 is going to die a long slow death with the way other leagues are going.

LordDowlais wrote: The Pro12 is going to die a long slow death with the way other leagues are going.

I've heard that somewhere before.

Munchkin wrote:Maybe that should read; 'The Regions need to do something quickly or else', but then the WRU and the Regions are doing something by bringing back players on DC's.

The only thing interesting about that article is how much some of those players are getting paid. £390k for afoa!

So it does not worry you that the English clubs can pay 300k+ for players ? I doubt even the moneybags of the IRFU can afford to pay all it's CC players that type of money. Also, please do not give me tax break thing you have going on, because I doubt any of the CC players are on more than 200K a week.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Maybe that should read; 'The Regions need to do something quickly or else', but then the WRU and the Regions are doing something by bringing back players on DC's.

The only thing interesting about that article is how much some of those players are getting paid. £390k for afoa!

So it does not worry you that the English clubs can pay 300k+ for players ? I doubt even the moneybags of the IRFU can afford to pay all it's CC players that type of money. Also, please do not give me tax break thing you have going on, because I doubt any of the CC players are on more than 200K a week.

No, it doesn't worry me. Other than Sexton, we haven't lost anyone, and he came back. I did post you an article (Cullen and Kearney) that explained one of the main reasons players stay in Ireland, but maybe you choose to ignore.

Anyway, I will leave you to your 'won't someone think of the children' moment, and do something else.

tara  

200k a week? Are you feeling ok LD?

Sexton is on 600k a season paid to his Caymon Islands bank account, same as Heaslip.

O'Mahoney gets free bus travel between Limerick and Dublin, a supply of free hoodies and Simon Zebos autograph.

rodders wrote:exton is on 600k a season paid to his Caymon Islands bank account, same as Heaslip.

The IRFU are not paying those wages though are they ?

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:exton is on 600k a season paid to his Caymon Islands bank account, same as Heaslip.

The IRFU are not paying those wages though are they ?

Not all of them.

The usual suspects won't acknowledge the problem here LD. Everything is hunkydory in Pro12ville.

Its fine from where I sit. The two scottish teams are competing OK, increased budgets increasing crowds etc. Why you guys have to whinge and whine so much I don';t understand. It must be very depressing seeing everything in such a negative light all the time

Not worried at the moment. As long as the top level of the game is considered international rugby and the pay reflects that the unions should be okay.

- IRFU already limit themselves to 1 oversea's player and have 4 regions that are well financed. Ulster were able to convince Piatau (along with a million quid) to leave NZ even if he spends this season at Wasps. They were the catalyst. Money is not a serious issue for them.
- SRU are back to being solvent and investing in Glasgow/Edinburgh. Glasgow and Edinburgh have weaknesses but they have large squads with talented players. Eventually a 3rd team in Aberdeen should be established (should the North Sea survive in the long run). There is a brighter future ahead than in the past.
- WRU providing decent amount of DC's (thought they were limited to 10 but they must be able to do as many as they want) and the money on those is competitive. 2 oversea's player should limit those that want to go but still play international
- FIR needs help as the commercial growth of the game for the Pro 12 are Italy and to an extent Scotland (due to the lack of rugby in state schools over the years). Really they are the ones that need the big kick. A team in Rome is the goal in the medium term for me

Pro 12 can more easily expand and become like Super Rugby than the French and English. All the minor nations of Europe that have rising participation levels (Spain, Portugal, Germany, Netherlands) can eventually be added. It is more a question of vision on the leader's part.

This year is down but Pro 12 is more reliant on local internationals and protective of them. Familiarity early in the season may be more of a problem than players who have come back and been chucked straight in. The end of season will be where I am watching for injuries. Saying that Ulster looked like they lost half their team against Edinburgh on the weekend but hoping that is a one off not a sign for the season.

TJ wrote:Its fine from where I sit.  The two scottish teams are competing OK, increased budgets increasing crowds etc.  Why you guys have to whinge and whine so much I don';t understand.  It must be very depressing seeing everything in such a negative light all the time

So you are happy to see the likes of Visser and co jump ship and sign for English sides are you ? No wonder there is no sight of ambition up there in Scottish rugby. We need to keep our best players in OUR league. Why are you saying that this is a negative from me ? Also, who are the two sides competing ok with ? Dragons, Blues ? My local team would give those pair a run for their money.

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:exton is on 600k a season paid to his Caymon Islands bank account, same as Heaslip.

The IRFU are not paying those wages though are they ?

200k is endorsements like the French clubs are doing. The AP clubs are also not paying for all the wages on the list.

The Quins trio earned £960k between them, as Robshaw and Brown are Home Grown players the club get £100k in credits towards them plus the three went to the RWC that's a £115k from the RFU and they will get more from the RFU next season for players being away with England.

Not to mention Afoa was on similar money at Ulster only leaving because of personal reasons, as TJ mentions they are also about to spend 500k a year on Piutau and now may also keep Ludik, are eyeing up some quality backrows who will not be cheap. All on top of having guys like Pienaar, Best, Henderson and Payne

What your saying isn't wholly accurate

marty2086 wrote:

Not to mention Afoa was on similar money at Ulster only leaving because of personal reasons, as TJ mentions they are also about to spend 500k a year on Piutau and now may also keep Ludik, are eyeing up some quality backrows who will not be cheap. All on top of having guys like Pienaar, Best, Henderson and Payne

How much do you think Ulster's salary is per annum? Approximately.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Its fine from where I sit.  The two scottish teams are competing OK, increased budgets increasing crowds etc.  Why you guys have to whinge and whine so much I don';t understand.  It must be very depressing seeing everything in such a negative light all the time

So you are happy to see the likes of Visser and co jump ship and sign for English sides are you ? No wonder there is no sight of ambition up there in Scottish rugby. We need to keep our best players in OUR league. Why are you saying that this is a negative from me ? Also, who are the two sides competing ok with ? Dragons, Blues ? My local team would give those pair a run for their money.

With only 2 pro teams Visser and co jumping ship creates room to grow for other players. Visser in particular has allowed Kinghorn a chance to shine.

I'm happy with the move. He is scoring tries for fun at Quins and getting good game time, whilst the void he left at Edinburgh is being used to develop the next generation. It's a win win for us.

A third Scottish team would be nice but currently:

1) The pro 12 isn't big enough for another Scottish pro team
2) The SRU can't afford another pro team
3) There is no infrastructure for a third Scottish pro team

All the while those point exist Scotlan NEED to farm out our established players to England and France.

£290k for Priestland. What a complete and utter waste of money.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Not to mention Afoa was on similar money at Ulster only leaving because of personal reasons, as TJ mentions they are also about to spend 500k a year on Piutau and now may also keep Ludik, are eyeing up some quality backrows who will not be cheap. All on top of having guys like Pienaar, Best, Henderson and Payne

How much do you think Ulster's salary is per annum? Approximately.

I haven't a clue

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:All the while those point exist Scotlan NEED to farm out our established players to England and France.

Or you could stop signing time serving players and get more and more Scottish players actually playing for the two teams.

Is this what the Pro12 has come to ? Is this the limit of the ambitions of some of the teams in the Pro12 ? I think the Scottish rugby fans are so used to mediocrity that they now accept that getting into the top six of the Pro12 and not getting out of the group in Europe is the way to go. If the two Scottish sides kept all their best players then surely that would be good for Scottish rugby, or am I missing something ?

Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

Shhhhh, don't interrupt LD with facts.......

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Not to mention Afoa was on similar money at Ulster only leaving because of personal reasons, as TJ mentions they are also about to spend 500k a year on Piutau and now may also keep Ludik, are eyeing up some quality backrows who will not be cheap. All on top of having guys like Pienaar, Best, Henderson and Payne

How much do you think Ulster's salary is per annum? Approximately.

I haven't a clue

What would you guess it to be? Given all thsoe players you just mentioned that are on big bucks.

LordDowlais wrote:[ I think the Scottish rugby fans are so used to mediocrity that they now accept that getting into the top six of the Pro12 and not getting out of the group in Europe is the way to go. If the two Scottish sides kept all their best players then surely that would be good for Scottish rugby, or am I missing something ?

Have you not been arguing that Pro12 clubs should focus on the league and stop worrying about the scraps from the Franglos table?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

Anyone with real ambition wants to win the AP

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

Yes, but that is one trophy for the two sides since 2003. Yep thats how to show us. When was the last time Glasgow got out of their group in Europe ? Also they never will if they keep shipping players off to France and England so that they can make room for other to come through.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Not to mention Afoa was on similar money at Ulster only leaving because of personal reasons, as TJ mentions they are also about to spend 500k a year on Piutau and now may also keep Ludik, are eyeing up some quality backrows who will not be cheap. All on top of having guys like Pienaar, Best, Henderson and Payne

How much do you think Ulster's salary is per annum? Approximately.

I haven't a clue

What would you guess it to be? Given all thsoe players you just mentioned that are on big bucks.

Whatever I guess it to be you'll disagree so whats the point?

marty2086 wrote:Have you not been arguing that Pro12 clubs should focus on the league and stop worrying about the scraps from the Franglos table?

And you told me it should be both, you will not do either when you keep losing all your best players. Also this is about keeping all our best players here, in our league, we will not be able to do that at this rate. Our league is fast becoming a development tool for the French and English clubs. Is that how you want it ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

Yes, but that is one trophy for the two sides since 2003. Yep thats how to show us. When was the last time Glasgow got out of their group in Europe ? Also they never will if they keep shipping players off to France and England so that they can make room for other to come through.

So they've improved then?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

Yes, but that is one trophy for the two sides since 2003. Yep thats how to show us. When was the last time Glasgow got out of their group in Europe ? Also they never will if they keep shipping players off to France and England so that they can make room for other to come through.

So they've improved then?

No they have gone backwards from last season.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Have you not been arguing that Pro12 clubs should focus on the league and stop worrying about the scraps from the Franglos table?

And you told me it should be both, you will not do either when you keep losing all your best players.

Like who?

Rory Best? http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/14323.php#.VmWO8Wd1SM8

Iain Henderson? http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/15184/9720186/rugby-union-ulster-forward-ian-henderson-signs-three-year-contract-extensions

Ruan Pienaar? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34927151

Andrew Trimble? http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34003.php

Tommy Bowe? http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/tommy-bowe-signs-new-deal-with-irfu-1.1999305

Should be fairly simple for the Welsh sides to clean up then.

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:All the while those point exist Scotlan NEED to farm out our established players to England and France.

Or you could stop signing time serving players and get more and more Scottish players actually playing for the two teams.

Is this what the Pro12 has come to ? Is this the limit of the ambitions of some of the teams in the Pro12 ? I think the Scottish rugby fans are so used to mediocrity that they now accept that getting into the top six of the Pro12 and not getting out of the group in Europe is the way to go. If the two Scottish sides kept all their best players then surely that would be good for Scottish rugby, or am I missing something ?

Yes I think you are. Visser is a proven international player and an established try scorer. From an Edinburgh perspective I would love to see him playing his rugby for Edinburgh, although under Solomans Edinburgh are playing 10 man rugby at best so Visser's skills were properly watsed.

However Edinburgh's current play style aside Visser had to move on. Scotland don't have enough professional slots to keep all the Scottish internationals playing regular rugby.

The fact Richie Gray is at Toulouse, Laidlaw is at Glaws, Denton is at Bath improves the clubs they play for and they can learn a bit from the likes of Picamoles, Hook and Lowe respectivley and then bring that knowlege and experience back to the Scotland camp.

The fact that Visser will be playing alongside Brown, Roberts and Robshaw at Quins actually makes me happy since he'll know a little about his opponents in the 6N.

Playing in exile is actually good for Scottish rugby players and the international team in general.

The exiles gain more experience and some exposure to a differant league and playstyle to the pro 12 whilst Edinburgh and Glasgow have more room on their books for new home grown players.

You have to understand the pro12 format exists as a feeder for the international teams. The fact that the last few winners of the 6N have come from that league suggests the format is working.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't glasgow win the Pro 12 last year?

Yes, but that is one trophy for the two sides since 2003. Yep thats how to show us. When was the last time Glasgow got out of their group in Europe ? Also they never will if they keep shipping players off to France and England so that they can make room for other to come through.

It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should be fairly simple for the Welsh sides to clean up then.

Why, we are potentially losing all our best players as well. We cannot keep up with the English and the French at domestic level.

funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

All this talk about Ireland losing their best players (from a non-irish fan of course) centres around what?

As far as I can see just one player of any really profile left last season (JJ Hanrahan) and he was a bench warmer for Munster.

Meanwhile this season we have rumours about Madigan, another bench warmer for his province.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should be fairly simple for the Welsh sides to clean up then.

Why, we are potentially losing all our best players as well. We cannot keep up with the English and the French at domestic level.

So it's the Irish who will clean up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should be fairly simple for the Welsh sides to clean up then.

Why, we are potentially losing all our best players as well. We cannot keep up with the English and the French at domestic level.

So it's the Irish who will clean up.

If they can keep their players as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

So much so that Barclay rareley even features for his country anymore.

LondonTiger wrote:All this talk about Ireland losing their best players (from a non-irish fan of course) centres around what?

As far as I can see just one player of any really profile left last season (JJ Hanrahan) and he was a bench warmer for Munster.

Meanwhile this season we have rumours about Madigan, another bench warmer for his province.

Munster have lost Paul O'Connell to Toulon as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should be fairly simple for the Welsh sides to clean up then.

Why, we are potentially losing all our best players as well. We cannot keep up with the English and the French at domestic level.

So it's the Irish who will clean up.

If they can keep their players as well.

If they lose them, the Italians will clean up.

I don't see the threat as being existential- because they are only going to pick off, say, 10 Welsh (or Irish) players on top contracts overseas. If we can't weather that storm then the failure is more with our Academies. We can use this to our advantage- if they pick off a top player it opens up a space in one of our Pro12 teams for someone else to make their mark and simultaneously closes off an opportunity for someone from the Academy system in England or France to step up. They still have the numbers on us as bigger nations, and always will but that also has the disadvantage of their internationals being scattered across many different clubs. I don't see this diluting the competitiveness of our teams in the Six Nations, and I don't see this weakening the pool of players we have available to us for test rugby. In fact it forces us to invest more and more in producing players and raising the overall level of our academy systems. If we do this, our national teams will reap the benefits.

It's true that while the numbers being thrown around for players like Madigan and Priestland are astronomical, those offers are so attractive because they are on the peripheries of their national teams- arguably those two players have tried to establish themselves at test level and failed, leading to them to consider their options. Simon Zebo is another player being linked to a big mony move overseas- he's also another player who has been rotated in and out of the test side. Sexton, Davies and maybe Halfpenny coming back is more encouraging to me than these players leaving.

The fact that they have that kind of money is an unavoidable fact. What we need to do is use that as their strength against them- the more money they throw at mid-tier players to fill their teams, the less they throw at developing their own talent. And THAT will lead to them losing ground on another front.

As for the Pro12 itself, continued investment in Academy systems and coaching should be the priority without worrying about big names too much. There are a number of things that contribute to teams in this league attracting the crowds, TV deals and sponsorship deals they need;

1) Is international players
2) Is success and winning trophies
3) Is a good match day experience, and good marketing- getting a full stadium with good atmosphere, good bars, good food options is essential
4) Is entertaining rugby

We can't fully control 1) because there is no way international players can realistically play more than half of all games in the Pro12 regardless of whether we keep them or not. And the only bodies with the pulling power and financial power needed to sign up international players are ultimately the Unions. Central control of the best players is not only economically inevitable, its desirable- better than Scarlets have someone like Jon Davies on a dual contract than not at all.

Similarly, only two or three teams at a time will reap the benefits of number 2). Not everyone can enjoy the kind of upsurge in season ticket numbers Ulster enjoyed after getting to the Heineken Cup Final or Glasgow enjoyed from winning the Pro12- and as Munster and Leinster have shown, the boost in support success will bring will wear off when it goes away again.

What the success or failure of this league rests upon is numbers 3) and 4). Teams need to focus on growing their loyal, core support and making sure a night spent at Ravenhill or Parc Y Scarlets or Scotstoun is a night spent in an atmospheric ground, watching teams play an exciting game with high skill levels and entertainment value. We have long way to go in terms of basic skills and coaching in this league, but watching how Glasgow grew into a title winning side and looking at the way Connacht are playing now shows its possible. In fact, I would cite Glasgow as good examples of both those things. They have very few stars in that team, but they play a great brand of rugby and have concentrated on building a great experience at Scotstoun.

If every team is capable of doing that we will be in an outstanding place. It will build interest in the game locally, and provide a steady stream of talent to our national teams. If that can happen I'd be very happy with where the Pro12 is as a league. The biggest problem in my view is improving the quality of coaching from grassroots through to the Academies and even in the teams themselves.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:All this talk about Ireland losing their best players (from a non-irish fan of course) centres around what?

As far as I can see just one player of any really profile left last season (JJ Hanrahan) and he was a bench warmer for Munster.

Meanwhile this season we have rumours about Madigan, another bench warmer for his province.

Munster have lost Paul O'Connell to Toulon as well.

There are two that are rumoured to be leaving. Madigan to wherever, second choice for both Leinster and Ireland, and Zebo who is first choice at Munster but not first choice for Ireland. Whether or not one or both goes will remain to be seen. We've been here before with Irish players and big money offers from overseas when their contracts get renewed- agents are always playing this game of brinksmanship trying to get more money out of the IRFU. They could both leave, or it could be a negotiating play. Remains to be seen.

Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

Notch wrote:the only bodies with the pulling power and financial power needed to sign up international players are ultimately the Unions.

The Ospreys and the Scarlets just outbid their own Union for a player.

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

he might not be a loss to you as an Ulster supporter, but he is a loss to Munster and a loss to the Pro12. When the Pro12 advertise the league, a picture of him in a Munster shirt would make a big difference.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should be fairly simple for the Welsh sides to clean up then.

Why, we are potentially losing all our best players as well. We cannot keep up with the English and the French at domestic level.

In the Welsh RWC a total of 38 players were called up. 12 play outside of Wales, two have never played in Wales(Francis and Moriarty)

Of the other 10, if Phillips stays does Rhys Webb become the player he has? If Halfpenny stays does Anscombe come? What does it do for Rhys Patchell? If Day stays at Scarlets does Jake Ball get the same opportunities?

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

he might not be a loss to you as an Ulster supporter, but he is a loss to Munster and a loss to the Pro12. When the Pro12 advertise the league, a picture of him in a Munster shirt would make a big difference.

As the assertion from notch was big money from Toulon or retire from all rugby, he would have been lost to Munster anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

he might not be a loss to you as an Ulster supporter, but he is a loss to Munster and a loss to the Pro12. When the Pro12 advertise the league, a picture of him in a Munster shirt would make a big difference.

a big difference to whom?

The same effect could probably be generated by:

Warburton in a Cardiff shirt.
Ford in an Edinburgh shirt.
Best in an Ulster shirt.
Heaslip in a Leinster shirt.
Biggar in an Ospreys shirt.
Gray in a Glasgow shirt.

The pro 12 is not as barren of talent as you are making out. There are big names who still ply their trade in the pro12 week in week out.

Sure it would be nice to have all the Scottish internationals playing for Edinburgh and Glasgow, however as I said before where do we develop the next generation and get them exposed to pro rugby? Far easier to offload the established guys rather than have our emerging talent fading into obscurity.