The Pro12 teams need to do something or else.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 12:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pro12 teams will not be able to compete with this, something needs to be doen, and done fast. There will be no decent players in the Pro12 at this rate, Rhys Priestland is earning 290K a year at bath, George North 300K at Northampton how are we supposed to compete with that ? I mean come on, Bath already had George Ford, I doubt Priestland will be a bench warmer on that money. Also news that teams are chasing the likes of Madigan, all our best players will be in France or England before long. Take a look at the money being thrown around in the Aviva:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-set-earn-staggering-10560435

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

Because they are Union run, and were told to play lower quality Scottish players instead.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:33 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You have again hit the nail on the head for me. I care more about Scotland than I do about Edinburgh. My team the Caledonian Reds were disbanded about 10 years ago. I support Edinburgh by default but have no true loyalty to the team that I can speak of.

Do you actually go and watch Edinburgh or Glasgow play every week ?

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:36 pm

DTH is one of the best wingers in Europe right now. Why would Glasgow not offer him a new contract?

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:36 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

The casual fan would never do that unless he knew he would be watching the international players that the thousands turn up at Murryfield to watch every 6N home game. This is the issue with people on here, you cannot see the wood for the trees. But alas you could be happy with mediocrity.

As a Scottish fan we have to settle for mediocrity otherwise we wouldn't watch any rugby at all. Scotland has been poor in taking to the professional game for many reasons. It has also been criminally mismanaged and that is apparent by the absolute dross Scotland has produced for the last 15 years. Couple that with the tribal mentallity of the Scottish rugby heartland of the borders it meant the professional game in Scotland has really suffered.

The fact that Scotland now has the players (Hogg, Bennet, Gray/Gray, Denton, Dickinson, Ford, Laidlaw) to be able to compete and play good rugby is a testament to the success of the pro12. Scotland and Wales both had good world cups whilst France, England and Ireland had a torrid time.

Comparing the pro12 to the unrestrained spending power of the top14 in particular is not a good comparison. Especially when you look at how poor France have been in recent years since their big spending league is saturated with foreign talent.

Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

And this attitude is symptomatic of a league that exists to feed international rugby, rather than one that exists to flourish independently.

Both Edinburgh and Glasgow exist to feed the Scottish National team. That's why they are funded by the SRU. It clearly isn't a bad thing since Glasgow are reigning pro 12 champs.

But totally and utterly detrimental to the league as a product and therefore a strategy which is hindering revenue increases.

Revenue only becomes important in Europe. However since 2006 the ERC has been won by pro12 sides on 5 occasions suggests that money doesn't always buy success. Unless you are Toulon and prepared to part with eye watering sums of money to achieve that success.

Make no mistake about it. Even with money to burn there is nothing to suggest the circumstances of the Welsh teams or any other pro12 team will improve. Playing your rugby on the South coast of France or in Paris for half a million a year or playing your rugby for the same wages at Newport of Galway....

go figure.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:39 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Do you actually go and watch Edinburgh or Glasgow play every week ?

For the reasons detailed here:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I care more about Scotland than I do about Edinburgh. My team the Caledonian Reds were disbanded about 10 years ago. I support Edinburgh by default but have no true loyalty to the team that I can speak of.

We only have 2 choices in Scotland and it seems to be east or west coast orientated.

No is the short answer.

Coupled with the fact I have a baby girl to take care of too should provide a satisfactory reason for my reduced attendance. I also do not live in the capital and work on a Friday further hampering my chances of getting along.

I enjoy getting along but it is harder these days.

However Edinburgh offloading Denton and Visser is not a reason that I would not attend the game.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:39 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Revenue only becomes important in Europe.

Fort real? Just a coincidence that every year the league more or less pans out from top to bottom in order of welath then is it? Top 6 is important remember.

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:40 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

Because they are Union run, and were told to play lower quality Scottish players instead.

Really?

That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:42 pm

marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

Who the feck is he when he's at home ?

They probably signed him on a cheaper contract than what DTH was worth.

by **Notch** Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:42 pm

Actually, I would argue that Glasgow have directly improved the league as a product massively by a) playing an entertaining and skilfully executed style of rugby and b) growing their crowds from a very small base, which has created a new market for rugby in a football city. It's on a small scale but no-one can argue that it isn't working. They are now a team people want to watch. They often take part in some of the most exciting, highest quality games in the league.

The two things go hand in hand. The skill level and style of play is good at developing players for international rugby, and good for selling tickets and attracting crowds. Long may it continue.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:44 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Revenue only becomes important in Europe.

Fort real? Just a coincidence that every year the league more or less pans out from top to bottom in order of welath then is it? Top 6 is important remember.

Isn't that what you want? No artificial evening up?

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:44 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:No is the short answer.

Then it is pointless me having this debate with you. I doubt you care about the fortunes of either of the two Scottish pro sides.

by **Notch** Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

Who the feck is he when he's at home ?

They probably signed him on a cheaper contract than what DTH was worth.

I doubt it, given Naiyaravoro is a young player who was tipped to make the step up to Wallabies-level before he left.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:45 pm

Notch wrote:Actually, I would argue that Glasgow have directly improved the league as a product massively by a) playing an entertaining and skilfully executed style of rugby and b) growing their crowds from a very small base, which has created a new market for rugby in a football city. It's on a small scale but no-one can argue that it isn't working. They are now a team people want to watch. They often take part in some of the most exciting, highest quality games in the league.

The two things go hand in hand. The skill level and style of play is good at developing players for international rugby, and good for selling tickets and attracting crowds. Long may it continue.

Glasgow have gone backwards from previous years.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

Because they are Union run, and were told to play lower quality Scottish players instead.

Really?

That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

He plays a different position to DTH.

It's all about positions isn't it. Like you have in Ireland. A Balancing act to enable the gaps in the positions to come through. A Union run league set up to serve the Unions.

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:47 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

Who the feck is he when he's at home ?

They probably signed him on a cheaper contract than what DTH was worth.

Really? Do actually watch the league?

Taqele Naiyaravoro earned his first Wallabies cap in May and the move cost him his place at the RWC after being one of the starts of Super Rugby and probably cost more than DTH but you keep speculating since you know ~~nothing~~ everything

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

Who the feck is he when he's at home ?

They probably signed him on a cheaper contract than what DTH was worth.

Really? Do actually watch the league?

Taqele Naiyaravoro earned his first Wallabies cap in May and the move cost him his place at the RWC after being one of the starts of Super Rugby and probably cost more than DTH but you keep speculating since you know ~~nothing~~ everything

Nope, sorry I have never heard of him. I would not done my hat and scarf and go out on a blustery wet Scottish night to watch him play.

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:49 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

Because they are Union run, and were told to play lower quality Scottish players instead.

Really?

That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

He plays a different position to DTH.

It's all about positions isn't it. Like you have in Ireland. A Balancing act to enable the gaps in the positions to come through. A Union run league set up to serve the Unions.

What positions do you think they play?

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:No is the short answer.

Then it is pointless me having this debate with you. I doubt you care about the fortunes of either of the two Scottish pro sides.

Completely untrue and spoken like somebody who has a local pro team to follow. Like I said "my" pro team the Caledonia Reds were disbanded by the SRU some 10 years ago.

To say I don't care about the fortunes of pro teams in Scotland is false especially when Edinburgh and Glasgow's league performances will have a direct impact on how well the national team performs.

Getting to Edinburgh after work on Friday isn't easy and leaving the Mrs with a 15 week old baby won't make me popular. So keep your opinions about what I care about to yourself please! thumbsup

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

Who the feck is he when he's at home ?

They probably signed him on a cheaper contract than what DTH was worth.

Really? Do actually watch the league?

Taqele Naiyaravoro earned his first Wallabies cap in May and the move cost him his place at the RWC after being one of the starts of Super Rugby and probably cost more than DTH but you keep speculating since you know ~~nothing~~ everything

Nope, sorry I have never heard of him. I would not done my hat and scarf and go out on a blustery wet Scottish night to watch him play.

Or make use of this great invention called a television? Whistle

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Dec 2015, 3:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

Because they are Union run, and were told to play lower quality Scottish players instead.

Really?

That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

He plays a different position to DTH.

It's all about positions isn't it. Like you have in Ireland. A Balancing act to enable the gaps in the positions to come through. A Union run league set up to serve the Unions.

What positions do you think they play?

Right wing and left wing respectively.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:03 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Completely untrue and spoken like somebody who has a local pro team to follow. Like I said "my" pro team the Caledonia Reds were disbanded by the SRU some 10 years ago

Actually no, I do not have a local pro team to follow. I used to, I used to have Celtic Warriors, but they were disbanded, I know support all four Welsh regions, mostly Cardiff Blues, and they are 30 miles away from where I live. But I do try and make the effort.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:Or make use of this great invention called a television? Whistle

The point I am trying to make is that he is not a player that will make you want to tune in or rock on down to the stadium is he ? Not if I have never seen him. On the other hand, if I had been watching the WORLD CUP or the SIX NATIONS and seen a player playing for my country, perhaps I would be more inclined to watch him for his club either on tele or live at the ground.

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:14 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

Because they are Union run, and were told to play lower quality Scottish players instead.

Really?

That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

He plays a different position to DTH.

It's all about positions isn't it. Like you have in Ireland. A Balancing act to enable the gaps in the positions to come through. A Union run league set up to serve the Unions.

What positions do you think they play?

Right wing and left wing respectively.

They are both wingers though, others in the squad have more versatility and can play both wings

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Or make use of this great invention called a television? Whistle

The point I am trying to make is that he is not a player that will make you want to tune in or rock on down to the stadium is he ? Not if I have never seen him. On the other hand, if I had been watching the WORLD CUP or the SIX NATIONS and seen a player playing for my country, perhaps I would be more inclined to watch him for his club either on tele or live at the ground.

How do you know if you've never seen him?

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Or make use of this great invention called a television? Whistle

The point I am trying to make is that he is not a player that will make you want to tune in or rock on down to the stadium is he ? Not if I have never seen him. On the other hand, if I had been watching the WORLD CUP or the SIX NATIONS and seen a player playing for my country, perhaps I would be more inclined to watch him for his club either on tele or live at the ground.

How do you know if you've never seen him?

OK I give in, you have won the internet today. How can I debate with somebody who refuses to see a potential problem when it is starring them in the face ?

by **George Carlin** Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:19 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I don't want fans turning on the TV to watch Visser or Denton. I want fans to turn on to watch Edinburgh.

Then you should want their bigger names to stay.

I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys.

You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

I think you're missing the point a bit here. This is about the league as a whole, it's potential to earn revenue through tv deals and sponsors from big companies in London, Cardiff and further afield. This isn't about getting Rabbie McJobbie to the game instead of watching it in the boozer. And to do this, the big names have to be kept.

How do you know Rabbie? Headscratch

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Or make use of this great invention called a television? Whistle

The point I am trying to make is that he is not a player that will make you want to tune in or rock on down to the stadium is he ? Not if I have never seen him. On the other hand, if I had been watching the WORLD CUP or the SIX NATIONS and seen a player playing for my country, perhaps I would be more inclined to watch him for his club either on tele or live at the ground.

How do you know if you've never seen him?

OK I give in, you have won the internet today. How can I debate with somebody who refuses to see a potential problem when it is starring them in the face ?

You're setting ridiculous criteria to say you're right. If they'd seen any player at the RWC then maybe they'll come along to the game, if they seen Naiyavaro play in Super Rugby someone might go.

You have also changed the criteria from on field success to be able to draw a crowd

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:32 pm

marty2086 wrote:
You're setting ridiculous criteria to say you're right. If they'd seen any player at the RWC then maybe they'll come along to the game, if they seen Naiyavaro play in Super Rugby someone might go.

How on earth would your casual Scottish supporter see Naiyavaro play in Super Rugby, unless they would rather watch super rugby and Scotland than any of the Scottish teams. The casual Scottish supporter would not watch him or the S15, and if he did watch the S15 he would not have a clue who he was. Also, might I just add, why the feck would Australia let him go if he was any good ?

This is all about the English and the French potentially taking all our best players, but you have turned it into this pointless debate about a NSQ player.

Look, it's pointless me debating with you, because if I told you tomorrow was Tuesday you would beg to differ. The bottom line is, losing our best players to other leagues is not good for the Pro12, no matter how you try and paint it.

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:45 pm

[quote="LordDowlais"]

marty2086 wrote:
You're setting ridiculous criteria to say you're right. If they'd seen any player at the RWC then maybe they'll come along to the game, if they seen Naiyavaro play in Super Rugby someone might go.

How on earth would your casual Scottish supporter see Naiyavaro play in Super Rugby, unless they would rather watch super rugby and Scotland than any of the Scottish teams. The casual Scottish supporter would not watch him or the S15, and if he did watch the S15 he would not have a clue who he was. Also, might I just add, why the feck would Australia let him go if he was any good ?

This is all about the English and the French potentially taking all our best players, but you have turned it into this pointless debate about a NSQ player.
quote]

No actually it was you,fEs and Chunky talking about DTH who your buddy said was discarded for a cheaper, poorer Scottish option because the Union told Glasgow to do this

Who should Glasgow be playing in front of him?

Why would Australia let him go? Maybe they didn't have a choice, if I'm not mistaken they even tried to get him to stay after he signed with Glasgow but he honoured the contract

I'd see why you'd think a quality player coming into the league is something you wouldn't want to talk about, especially as it doesn't suit your narrative

by funnyExiledScot Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:49 pm

There are different issues at play here. With only two professional teams, the Scottish sides actually NEED a certain amount of selective turnover to allow young Scottish players to break through. Visser left Edinburgh and Hoyland has come through. Denton leaves to make way for Bradbury. Whilst it might not be ideal for the Pro12 to see top players leaving, for the Scottish teams it's actually part of the model (like it or not).

The is obviously not an issue with Wales and Ireland who are better provided for having four teams each (albeit with their own structural issues to overcome).

I don't ignore the problems faced by the Pro12. Bluntly put the league has less fans following it than the Aviva or the French league, and it generates less TV money. Therefore the teams can fork out less in wages, and money talks when it comes to attracting the top talent. The IRFU appear to have done the business as compared to the SRU and the WRU, but their provinces are far better established with the local supporters than the relatively new and cobbled together structures in Wales and Scotland (where many core fans have competing loyalties elsewhere).

I personally think we need to work with what we have rather than retreating back to the drawing board, and the recent steps taken by the WRU appear to me to be a step in the right direction in terms of retaining key players.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:50 pm

marty2086 wrote:I'd see why you'd think a quality player coming into the league is something you wouldn't want to talk about, especially as it doesn't suit your narrative

Where have I said he is not a quality player ? Again making things up to suit your agenda.

What I am saying is, you might get excited about him signing for Glasgow, because you know about him. The thousands of people who flock to Edinburgh to watch Scotland will not have, and they still will not have, as he will not be playing for the team they have gone to support. Now if the Scottish internationals were playing for Edinburgh and Glasgow the thousands who go to watch Scotland might just go and watch those same players as well when they play for the clubs.

by TJ Mon 07 Dec 2015, 4:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
TJ wrote:Its fine from where I sit. The two scottish teams are competing OK, increased budgets increasing crowds etc. Why you guys have to whinge and whine so much I don';t understand. It must be very depressing seeing everything in such a negative light all the time

So you are happy to see the likes of Visser and co jump ship and sign for English sides are you ? No wonder there is no sight of ambition up there in Scottish rugby. We need to keep our best players in OUR league. Why are you saying that this is a negative from me ? Also, who are the two sides competing ok with ? Dragons, Blues ? My local team would give those pair a run for their money.

visser - perfectly happy to see him go. He looked stale and jaded and was finding it hard to get a regular first team place. Hopefully like Laidlaw he will be rejuvenated down south and thus become a better player for scotland. Sometimes for a players development its better to be a small fish in a big pond than a big fishjin a small pond. Denton is more off a miss but thats what happens. Players get enticed away from your teams for a whole raft of reasons not always to do with money. Visser going means more game time for one of the youngsters who otherwise wouldn't get it. same with Denton to a lessor extent

by **Notch** Mon 07 Dec 2015, 5:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Notch wrote:Actually, I would argue that Glasgow have directly improved the league as a product massively by a) playing an entertaining and skilfully executed style of rugby and b) growing their crowds from a very small base, which has created a new market for rugby in a football city. It's on a small scale but no-one can argue that it isn't working. They are now a team people want to watch. They often take part in some of the most exciting, highest quality games in the league.

The two things go hand in hand. The skill level and style of play is good at developing players for international rugby, and good for selling tickets and attracting crowds. Long may it continue.

Glasgow have gone backwards from previous years.

Progress is not a straight line. Performances come and go, success comes and goes, what matters is the overall trend is upwards.

by marty2086 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 5:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I'd see why you'd think a quality player coming into the league is something you wouldn't want to talk about, especially as it doesn't suit your narrative

Where have I said he is not a quality player ? Again making things up to suit your agenda.

What I am saying is, you might get excited about him signing for Glasgow, because you know about him. The thousands of people who flock to Edinburgh to watch Scotland will not have, and they still will not have, as he will not be playing for the team they have gone to support. Now if the Scottish internationals were playing for Edinburgh and Glasgow the thousands who go to watch Scotland might just go and watch those same players as well when they play for the clubs.

You said

LordDowlais wrote:This is all about the English and the French potentially taking all our best players, but you have turned it into this pointless debate about a NSQ player

Not making things up, you said its a pointless debate when in fact it was relevant and where did you say he wasn't quality you didn't you merely questioned the impression I got was you were saying if he was any good he'd still be in Super Rugby

LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I just add, why the feck would Australia let him go if he was any good ?

Earlier you talked of attracting sponsorship etc, signing top players from elsewhere can actually help with that rather than limiting things to the Celtic nations and Italy

by GavinDragon Mon 07 Dec 2015, 5:07 pm

Notch wrote:I don't see the threat as being existential- because they are only going to pick off, say, 10 Welsh (or Irish) players on top contracts overseas. If we can't weather that storm then the failure is more with our Academies. We can use this to our advantage- if they pick off a top player it opens up a space in one of our Pro12 teams for someone else to make their mark and simultaneously closes off an opportunity for someone from the Academy system in England or France to step up. They still have the numbers on us as bigger nations, and always will but that also has the disadvantage of their internationals being scattered across many different clubs. I don't see this diluting the competitiveness of our teams in the Six Nations, and I don't see this weakening the pool of players we have available to us for test rugby. In fact it forces us to invest more and more in producing players and raising the overall level of our academy systems. If we do this, our national teams will reap the benefits.

It's true that while the numbers being thrown around for players like Madigan and Priestland are astronomical, those offers are so attractive because they are on the peripheries of their national teams- arguably those two players have tried to establish themselves at test level and failed, leading to them to consider their options. Simon Zebo is another player being linked to a big mony move overseas- he's also another player who has been rotated in and out of the test side. Sexton, Davies and maybe Halfpenny coming back is more encouraging to me than these players leaving.

The fact that they have that kind of money is an unavoidable fact. What we need to do is use that as their strength against them- the more money they throw at mid-tier players to fill their teams, the less they throw at developing their own talent. And THAT will lead to them losing ground on another front.

As for the Pro12 itself, continued investment in Academy systems and coaching should be the priority without worrying about big names too much. There are a number of things that contribute to teams in this league attracting the crowds, TV deals and sponsorship deals they need;

1) Is international players
2) Is success and winning trophies
3) Is a good match day experience, and good marketing- getting a full stadium with good atmosphere, good bars, good food options is essential
4) Is entertaining rugby

We can't fully control 1) because there is no way international players can realistically play more than half of all games in the Pro12 regardless of whether we keep them or not. And the only bodies with the pulling power and financial power needed to sign up international players are ultimately the Unions. Central control of the best players is not only economically inevitable, its desirable- better than Scarlets have someone like Jon Davies on a dual contract than not at all.

Similarly, only two or three teams at a time will reap the benefits of number 2). Not everyone can enjoy the kind of upsurge in season ticket numbers Ulster enjoyed after getting to the Heineken Cup Final or Glasgow enjoyed from winning the Pro12- and as Munster and Leinster have shown, the boost in support success will bring will wear off when it goes away again.

What the success or failure of this league rests upon is numbers 3) and 4). Teams need to focus on growing their loyal, core support and making sure a night spent at Ravenhill or Parc Y Scarlets or Scotstoun is a night spent in an atmospheric ground, watching teams play an exciting game with high skill levels and entertainment value. We have long way to go in terms of basic skills and coaching in this league, but watching how Glasgow grew into a title winning side and looking at the way Connacht are playing now shows its possible. In fact, I would cite Glasgow as good examples of both those things. They have very few stars in that team, but they play a great brand of rugby and have concentrated on building a great experience at Scotstoun.

If every team is capable of doing that we will be in an outstanding place. It will build interest in the game locally, and provide a steady stream of talent to our national teams. If that can happen I'd be very happy with where the Pro12 is as a league. The biggest problem in my view is improving the quality of coaching from grassroots through to the Academies and even in the teams themselves.

Connacht are fantastic to watch at the moment. Scarlets also playing a good brand of rugby. There is a common denominator between these two sides as well and it is the one thing that appears to be overlooked when talk of big name signings and budgets are bandied about.

by TJ Mon 07 Dec 2015, 5:09 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I don't want fans turning on the TV to watch Visser or Denton. I want fans to turn on to watch Edinburgh.

Then you should want their bigger names to stay.

I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys.

You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

I think you're missing the point a bit here. This is about the league as a whole, it's potential to earn revenue through tv deals and sponsors from big companies in London, Cardiff and further afield. This isn't about getting Rabbie McJobbie to the game instead of watching it in the boozer. And to do this, the big names have to be kept.

That is a determent to Scottish rugby. We have no room to develop talent and expose said talent to pro rugby in Scotland outside the prism of Edinburgh and Glasgow. The established players have to move on to allow the game in Scotland to grow and produce the next generation. As I said had Denton, Laidlaw and Visser not moved on Watson, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne and Kinghorn would have all probably been left languishing in the amateur leagues.

Wot the radge one says is 100% right. I am excited about Watson getting more game time. Its been great to see samwise develop. Kinghorn looks very good and wouldn't have got a chance without older players moving on
Of course we do not want them to leave at 18 but develop the youngsters then when they are at their peak in the mid / late 20s let them go so we can develop the next generation. this will come back to bite The RFU on the bum - as they are not developing so many england qualified players - I know its better now but a few years ago only 2 England qualified 10s were getting regular starts in the AP

by TJ Mon 07 Dec 2015, 5:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Or make use of this great invention called a television? Whistle

The point I am trying to make is that he is not a player that will make you want to tune in or rock on down to the stadium is he ? Not if I have never seen him. On the other hand, if I had been watching the WORLD CUP or the SIX NATIONS and seen a player playing for my country, perhaps I would be more inclined to watch him for his club either on tele or live at the ground.

How do you know if you've never seen him?

OK I give in, you have won the internet today. How can I debate with somebody who refuses to see a potential problem when it is starring them in the face ?

Because for reasons you have been told it is only a problem in your imagination.

by **Notch** Mon 07 Dec 2015, 6:58 pm

[quote="LordDowlais"][quote="marty2086"]

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?
I would not done my hat and scarf and go out on a blustery wet Scottish night to watch him play.

It would be your loss. Most rugby fans agree that he is a very good prospect- you have to be pretty good to be capped for Australia. It's ironic that you dismiss this actually very well known SH player that anyone who follows Super Rugby will have heard of in the same breath as you dismiss Glasgow for letting DTH Van Der Merwe go- I'm sure you knew all about DTH Van Der Merwe before Glasgow signed him from the heady heights of the British Columbia Premier League in Canada! I'd say Naiyaravoro is considerably more well-known that Van Der Merwe was when he arrived.

The thing is, DTH Van Der Merwe was made into a star- or made himself into a star- at Glasgow. Same with other players of theirs- Russell, Nakarawa, Gray etc. A team that can do that has a much bigger future than one who relies on bringing players in, unless they have the budget of Toulon or Bath. We obviously do not have that budget in this league. In terms of the budgets that exist in Pro12, you can't win it by importing talent. It has to be based on homegrown talent and a handful of imports. Thats why I love this league compare to the circus they have in France, and why I wouldn't trade positions with any French club rugby fan.

The league has to be marketed as a stage where stars are made, not on the basis that crowds come to watch a handful of big-name players. Tbh you seem to be under the impression that every signing has to be a marquee, world class signing to be effective. Only a few teams in the league can afford that, and then they can only afford one player or at most two players in that price range. But there's no reason why these sides can't be run as effective businesses and market themselves effectively based on the values of a team and not just rely on a handful of household names. Of course it is in the interest of the IRFU, WRU, SRU etc. to have their best players in the country and I would say that retaining talent is important. But you have to have people to watch the team, not to watch some player.

by Sin é Mon 07 Dec 2015, 7:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:All this talk about Ireland losing their best players (from a non-irish fan of course) centres around what?

As far as I can see just one player of any really profile left last season (JJ Hanrahan) and he was a bench warmer for Munster.

Meanwhile this season we have rumours about Madigan, another bench warmer for his province.

Munster have lost Paul O'Connell to Toulon as well.

He was going to retire anyway. Anyway, you guys are always complaining that players like POC don't play in Wales in the Pro12 anyway, so he won't be much of a miss to it supposedly Wink

by Guest Mon 07 Dec 2015, 8:25 pm

Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

by VinceWLB Mon 07 Dec 2015, 9:51 pm

Notch wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?
I would not done my hat and scarf and go out on a blustery wet Scottish night to watch him play.

It would be your loss. Most rugby fans agree that he is a very good prospect- you have to be pretty good to be capped for Australia. It's ironic that you dismiss this actually very well known SH player that anyone who follows Super Rugby will have heard of in the same breath as you dismiss Glasgow for letting DTH Van Der Merwe go- I'm sure you knew all about DTH Van Der Merwe before Glasgow signed him from the heady heights of the British Columbia Premier League in Canada! I'd say Naiyaravoro is considerably more well-known that Van Der Merwe was when he arrived.

The thing is, DTH Van Der Merwe was made into a star- or made himself into a star- at Glasgow. Same with other players of theirs- Russell, Nakarawa, Gray etc. A team that can do that has a much bigger future than one who relies on bringing players in, unless they have the budget of Toulon or Bath. We obviously do not have that budget in this league. In terms of the budgets that exist in Pro12, you can't win it by importing talent. It has to be based on homegrown talent and a handful of imports. Thats why I love this league compare to the circus they have in France, and why I wouldn't trade positions with any French club rugby fan.

The league has to be marketed as a stage where stars are made, not on the basis that crowds come to watch a handful of big-name players. Tbh you seem to be under the impression that every signing has to be a marquee, world class signing to be effective. Only a few teams in the league can afford that, and then they can only afford one player or at most two players in that price range. But there's no reason why these sides can't be run as effective businesses and market themselves effectively based on the values of a team and not just rely on a handful of household names. Of course it is in the interest of the IRFU, WRU, SRU etc. to have their best players in the country and I would say that retaining talent is important. But you have to have people to watch the team, not to watch some player.

It's funny because to give an example, Dragons signed 2 big players last season, 2 returnees named Lee Byrne and Aled Brew. They probably added a few bums on seat but realistically they were 2 of the worst signings the Dragons have made in recent years and a huge waste of money.

The league needs to work from within and indeed bring in young talents but it also needs to retain that talent until they are at least 27-28. Visser was 28 when he left Edinburgh, the right time to move on imo. My heart wasn't bleeding on the other hand i would have been gutted had he left at the end of the 2012 season.

Matt Scott and Scott Williams are only 25 and it would be terrible for the league and their respective teams if they move on at the end of the season.

by **Notch** Mon 07 Dec 2015, 9:55 pm

Yeah, I agree of course Vince. I'm not pro-player drain! Obviously if it can be combated and prevented that is ideal- but the world is not ideal.

All I'm saying is that you can't base your marketing strategy around seeing one or two marquee players- whether they are imports or homegrown. Firstly, because they will always get offers elsewhere and they may leave. Secondly, because if they are test players they will only play about half the games.

by Stone Motif Mon 07 Dec 2015, 10:33 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That why they signed Naiyaravoro?

Who the feck is he when he's at home ?

Without meaning to give you another kicking regarding your comments about South Sea Islanders in Australian rugby, have a guess where Naiyaravoro is from Lord D?

by Stone Motif Mon 07 Dec 2015, 10:36 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Notch wrote:I don't see the threat as being existential- because they are only going to pick off, say, 10 Welsh (or Irish) players on top contracts overseas. If we can't weather that storm then the failure is more with our Academies. We can use this to our advantage- if they pick off a top player it opens up a space in one of our Pro12 teams for someone else to make their mark and simultaneously closes off an opportunity for someone from the Academy system in England or France to step up. They still have the numbers on us as bigger nations, and always will but that also has the disadvantage of their internationals being scattered across many different clubs. I don't see this diluting the competitiveness of our teams in the Six Nations, and I don't see this weakening the pool of players we have available to us for test rugby. In fact it forces us to invest more and more in producing players and raising the overall level of our academy systems. If we do this, our national teams will reap the benefits.

It's true that while the numbers being thrown around for players like Madigan and Priestland are astronomical, those offers are so attractive because they are on the peripheries of their national teams- arguably those two players have tried to establish themselves at test level and failed, leading to them to consider their options. Simon Zebo is another player being linked to a big mony move overseas- he's also another player who has been rotated in and out of the test side. Sexton, Davies and maybe Halfpenny coming back is more encouraging to me than these players leaving.

The fact that they have that kind of money is an unavoidable fact. What we need to do is use that as their strength against them- the more money they throw at mid-tier players to fill their teams, the less they throw at developing their own talent. And THAT will lead to them losing ground on another front.

As for the Pro12 itself, continued investment in Academy systems and coaching should be the priority without worrying about big names too much. There are a number of things that contribute to teams in this league attracting the crowds, TV deals and sponsorship deals they need;

1) Is international players
2) Is success and winning trophies
3) Is a good match day experience, and good marketing- getting a full stadium with good atmosphere, good bars, good food options is essential
4) Is entertaining rugby

We can't fully control 1) because there is no way international players can realistically play more than half of all games in the Pro12 regardless of whether we keep them or not. And the only bodies with the pulling power and financial power needed to sign up international players are ultimately the Unions. Central control of the best players is not only economically inevitable, its desirable- better than Scarlets have someone like Jon Davies on a dual contract than not at all.

Similarly, only two or three teams at a time will reap the benefits of number 2). Not everyone can enjoy the kind of upsurge in season ticket numbers Ulster enjoyed after getting to the Heineken Cup Final or Glasgow enjoyed from winning the Pro12- and as Munster and Leinster have shown, the boost in support success will bring will wear off when it goes away again.

What the success or failure of this league rests upon is numbers 3) and 4). Teams need to focus on growing their loyal, core support and making sure a night spent at Ravenhill or Parc Y Scarlets or Scotstoun is a night spent in an atmospheric ground, watching teams play an exciting game with high skill levels and entertainment value. We have long way to go in terms of basic skills and coaching in this league, but watching how Glasgow grew into a title winning side and looking at the way Connacht are playing now shows its possible. In fact, I would cite Glasgow as good examples of both those things. They have very few stars in that team, but they play a great brand of rugby and have concentrated on building a great experience at Scotstoun.

If every team is capable of doing that we will be in an outstanding place. It will build interest in the game locally, and provide a steady stream of talent to our national teams. If that can happen I'd be very happy with where the Pro12 is as a league. The biggest problem in my view is improving the quality of coaching from grassroots through to the Academies and even in the teams themselves.

Connacht are fantastic to watch at the moment. Scarlets also playing a good brand of rugby. There is a common denominator between these two sides as well and it is the one thing that appears to be overlooked when talk of big name signings and budgets are bandied about.

Biggest single problem in Welsh rugby imo. I'd have sold Faletau any day of the week if it meant we got a proven SH coach in. All ex-Welsh players know how to do consistently from their playing days is lose.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 07 Dec 2015, 11:17 pm

One player I would be desperate for Edinburgh to hold onto is Nel. He looked a bit tired on Friday against Ulster but last week against the Dragons he was amazing.

Nel absolutely battered the dragons loosehead, who eventually got sin binned and then battered the replacement LH who also got binned whilst the starting LH was still in the bin... Some player.

In fact the way Solomons has Edinburgh playing the entire front row is indispensable.

by Pot Hale Tue 08 Dec 2015, 12:36 am

Meanwhile, in a small room not too far away.......

- What'll we do today then, Chunks?
- Let's start another topic on how awful the Pro 12 is! Lawdy, if i have to spend another week in this godforsaken, leprechaun-infested, spaghetti-strewn, sporran-spawned hellhole...
- Another one? That's about 100 so far this month, Chunks, it might be too much.
- That was last month, Lawdy - do keep up. It's December, we've got plenty of days ahead of us. And double posts for Christmas Day.
- Eh right - so what'll be the topic then, Chunks?
- Ok - well, let's say I - I mean you - say that the PR O'12 is going to lose players to the English and French cos they've got more money.
- But everyone says that, Chunks. We've been saying that for months now. The Irish lads are saying it too. I think even the English and French are saying that at this stage...
- Never mind, people won't remember and besides the PR O'12 teams all lost last weekend, Lordy, so they're...
- Errr, no, six of them won actually Chunks, it was the Pro12 - you know where six teams play the other six - well actually it was five because Glas...
- Right, right, whatever....well you can say that the Welsh teams all lost cos all the players have been bought by the English and French and unless a B& I Le...
- Eh, Chunks?
- What, what Lawdy? I was on a roll there....
- The Welsh teams all won last weekend.
- What?!!
- Yeah, even the Dragons... who'd have thunk chunk? Hee he! Thunk/chunk, geddit?
- Be quiet, Lawdy. Did the shameless Irish teams all lose then? Cos then we can say that unless there's a Brit...
- Eh....only two of them, Chunk
- What??!! Which two? Leinster and Ulster? Cos that's where all the PRO'12 czars hang out and we-
- Eh no, Chunks, Ulster won.
- What?!!
- Chunks? Chunks, why are you grinding your teeth like that? Are you going to get mad again cos I said Ulster won?
- What did you just say?
- Eh, I just asked why you were grind...
- No, no, the other bit
- Eh, are you going to get mad again?
- Exactly, that's it! I'm not. But Bristol are. Or maybe Harlequins. Or maybe one of those cashed-up Frenchy clubs. They're going to get mad again. Ian Madigan. They're after him - god knows why.
- They are? Brilliant! Chunks, you're a genius. They will get mad when they see him play cos his hair is all over...
- Shut up Lordy, I'm thinking......right, so here's what I'll say - I mean - what you'll say.....
Pro12 teams can't compete blah, blah, blah.. something needs to be done, blah blah, blah.. no decent players in the Pro12 left, (are you writing this down, Lawdy) welsh dynamo Rhys Priestland given 290K a year, Stronghorse North on 300K at Northampton and even second raters like Irishman Madigan getting offered lots of moolah..... you can fill in the rest, Lawdy. That should convince them finally. The Pro12 coffin is being prepared in the woodshed as we speak, Lawdy. B&I here we come.....I can feel it in me bootstraps.
- Ok Chunks. But if we keep our best players in the Pro 12 then we'd be able to have the best league and not playing in Franglao cup for the shavings they're giving us, and then...
-Just post the topic, Lawdy and let me do the thinking..
- Eh ok, Chunks. Now, don't get mad again, but there's one thing you should know about Leinster and err Webb.......

Exeunt all stage left, laughing madly waving british league flags.

by TJ Tue 08 Dec 2015, 7:19 am

According to the Guardian only 2 of the 10 starting fly halfs in the AP on Fri / Sat were England qualified. That is the result of thier teams trying to buy success by importing talent and is indicative of the difference between the leagues. In the Pro 12 ( certainly Scotland and Ireland and italy) One of the aims is to develop players for internationals. In England is clubs first second and third with internationals a distant last.

by TJ Tue 08 Dec 2015, 7:22 am

Griff wrote:Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

Sheer nonsense. Those of us explaining why letting players go later in their career so we can develop the youth simply did not say this in any way.

Its not a windup - its trying to explain a different point of view and explaining why having established internationals playing outside of our home clubs is not always a bad thing.

Has laidlaw improved since going to Glaws?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Dec 2015, 8:10 am

TJ wrote:According to the Guardian only 2 of the 10 starting fly halfs in the AP on Fri / Sat were England qualified. That is the result of thier teams trying to buy success by importing talent and is indicative of the difference between the leagues. In the Pro 12 ( certainly Scotland and Ireland and italy) One of the aims is to develop players for internationals. In England is clubs first second and third with internationals a distant last.

Yet the English clubs still produce more than enough players. I think a lot of international teams would be happy with Ford, Farrell and Cipriani battling it out with Slade in the wings.

by LordDowlais Tue 08 Dec 2015, 9:16 am

Griff wrote:Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

I was just thinking this myself Griff. Hypocrisy at it's highest. On what planet is losing your best players good for the league ? Is this what we see the pro12 as, a development league for the French and English teams ? I for one am very worried about the future of the Pro12.Why ? Because I think it has huge potential. I like it and I want to improve it. But there are people on here who are happy with the status quo. the way we are going the Pro12 will die a slow horrible death. The money in the English and French leagues will ensure this. we need to find ways to keep our best players in our league. Not be happy to see them leave to make room for others.

Just look at the Scottish pro players playing outside Scotland thread. I was almost sick to my stomach reading that thread, they are sounding out players who can be time qualified to play for Scotland. This is not what our league is for. I just wish people could see the wood for the trees.

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