The Pro12 teams need to do something or else.

First topic message reminder :

Pro12 teams will not be able to compete with this, something needs to be doen, and done fast. There will be no decent players in the Pro12 at this rate, Rhys Priestland is earning 290K a year at bath, George North 300K at Northampton how are we supposed to compete with that ? I mean come on, Bath already had George Ford, I doubt Priestland will be a bench warmer on that money. Also news that teams are chasing the likes of Madigan, all our best players will be in France or England before long. Take a look at the money being thrown around in the Aviva:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-set-earn-staggering-10560435

He was below par munkian! In fairness previous to this they've ended up with Devoto as cover and he isn't anywhere near a good enough ten. Ford is the best 10 there for me and I suspect his coach/dad!

VinceWLB wrote:

TJ wrote:  Dentons going - tho that is a loss means Watson can get game time.

TJ, i really like the theory, in reality freakin COMAN  has been keeping out Watson out of the starting lineup.

Aye - but one less backrow player must leave gaps to be filled. Dentons going is the biggest loss recently - I hope we got some money for him

Ford / Preistland - this is the sort of situation that does anny me. a player going for big money to sit on the bench. It will be bad for preistland and for wales. Players need gametime. I suspect its to cover Ford when he is on international duty.

I think its a strange signing as both are confidence players.

Ford isn't a big game player for me.

Really? ok.

Priestland should have had far more game time on Saturday but daddy ford blamed every other aspect for Baths loss rather than his sons very poor performance and that's what Preistland is up against.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

I was just thinking this myself Griff. Hypocrisy at it's highest. On what planet is losing your best players good for the league ? Is this what we see the pro12 as, a development league for the French and English teams ? I for one am very worried about the future of the Pro12.Why ? Because I think it has huge potential. I like it and I want to improve it. But there are people on here who are happy with the status quo. the way we are going the Pro12 will die a slow horrible death. The money in the English and French leagues will ensure this. we need to find ways to keep our best players in our league. Not be happy to see them leave to make room for others.

Just look at the Scottish pro players playing outside Scotland thread. I was almost sick to my stomach reading that thread, they are sounding out players who can be time qualified to play for Scotland. This is not what our league is for. I just wish people could see the wood for the trees.

LD, it's simple. Just post up a brand new thread saying that you want the Welsh teams to let the top players move abroad to the top teams, playing in more competitive leagues with less player welfare and union management, playing at the business end of major tournaments, and the regions then just play the youth/academy players so that they get exposed to the best of the Ireland, Scottish and Italian teams. Use the Pro12 as a development league. The same posters will soon argue the other way and in doing so will agree with your arguments on here. 'Tis the 606 way. Because we've had the counter argument on here before. When (welsh) posters have said that they're glad Welsh players were leaving for better things, leaving youngsters to develop unobstructed at the regions, we've had a sh*t storm of abuse about the negative effect this has on the league.

I get the feeling they're arguing with you and Chunky because, well.... it's you and Chunky.

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

I was just thinking this myself Griff. Hypocrisy at it's highest. On what planet is losing your best players good for the league ? Is this what we see the pro12 as, a development league for the French and English teams ? I for one am very worried about the future of the Pro12.Why ? Because I think it has huge potential. I like it and I want to improve it. But there are people on here who are happy with the status quo. the way we are going the Pro12 will die a slow horrible death. The money in the English and French leagues will ensure this. we need to find ways to keep our best players in our league. Not be happy to see them leave to make room for others.

Just look at the Scottish pro players playing outside Scotland thread. I was almost sick to my stomach reading that thread, they are sounding out players who can be time qualified to play for Scotland. This is not what our league is for. I just wish people could see the wood for the trees.

LD, it's simple.  Just post up a brand new thread saying that you want the Welsh teams to let the top players move abroad to the top teams, playing in more competitive leagues with less player welfare and union management, playing at the business end of major tournaments, and the regions then just play the youth/academy players so that they get exposed to the best of the Ireland, Scottish and Italian teams.  Use the Pro12 as a development league.  The same posters will soon argue the other way and in doing so will agree with your arguments on here.  'Tis the 606 way.  Because we've had the counter argument on here before.  When (welsh) posters have said that they're glad Welsh players were leaving for better things, leaving youngsters to develop unobstructed at the regions, we've had a sh*t storm of abuse about the negative effect this has on the league.  

I get the feeling they're arguing with you and Chunky because, well.... it's you and Chunky.

So I'm wrong?

Please tell me more about Scottish rugby you must know so much about our player's development.

For the last time. We do not have enough pro teams in Scotland to chain our best players in place at Glasgow or Edinburgh. The younger guys would have nowhere to go. As FES has pointed out only 6 of the starting Scotland XXIII would be Exiles.

But hey don't let facts get in the way of your daft arguments and conspiracy theories.

For some players moving abroad does help/improve them and that in itself allows others to come through but if the Regions have any ambitions they need to not only try and keep hold of the top players as much as possible but also recruit well.

On the flip side you can't blame players for wanting a bit more money or the chance of silverware that they may not get with the Regions, players also may feel they need to move to benefit their International carears.

Take Patchell for instance, I am guessing he feels that Anscombe is seen as the long term No10 for the Blues so (if rumours are true) he is off down West and with Priestland having left he feels he has a chance at establishing himself as their No10 and pushing his Welsh ambitions.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

I was just thinking this myself Griff. Hypocrisy at it's highest. On what planet is losing your best players good for the league ? Is this what we see the pro12 as, a development league for the French and English teams ? I for one am very worried about the future of the Pro12.Why ? Because I think it has huge potential. I like it and I want to improve it. But there are people on here who are happy with the status quo. the way we are going the Pro12 will die a slow horrible death. The money in the English and French leagues will ensure this. we need to find ways to keep our best players in our league. Not be happy to see them leave to make room for others.

Just look at the Scottish pro players playing outside Scotland thread. I was almost sick to my stomach reading that thread, they are sounding out players who can be time qualified to play for Scotland. This is not what our league is for. I just wish people could see the wood for the trees.

LD, it's simple.  Just post up a brand new thread saying that you want the Welsh teams to let the top players move abroad to the top teams, playing in more competitive leagues with less player welfare and union management, playing at the business end of major tournaments, and the regions then just play the youth/academy players so that they get exposed to the best of the Ireland, Scottish and Italian teams.  Use the Pro12 as a development league.  The same posters will soon argue the other way and in doing so will agree with your arguments on here.  'Tis the 606 way.  Because we've had the counter argument on here before.  When (welsh) posters have said that they're glad Welsh players were leaving for better things, leaving youngsters to develop unobstructed at the regions, we've had a sh*t storm of abuse about the negative effect this has on the league.  

I get the feeling they're arguing with you and Chunky because, well.... it's you and Chunky.

So I'm wrong?

Please tell me more about Scottish rugby you must know so much about our player's development.

For the last time. We do not have enough pro teams in Scotland to chain our best players in place at Glasgow or Edinburgh. The younger guys would have nowhere to go. As FES has pointed out only 6 of the starting Scotland XXIII would be Exiles.

But hey don't let facts get in the way of your daft arguments and conspiracy theories.  

I didn't mention you. It's not all about you, you know!

I'm merely pointing out the remarkable change in stance of some of our Pro 12 'brothers' on here over the last few years, which I think is more to do with who posted the topic rather than the content of it.

Where did I post about Scottish player development?! Bizarre assumption to make based on what I wrote.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Priestland should have had far more game time on Saturday but daddy ford blamed every other aspect for Baths loss rather than his sons very poor performance and that's what Preistland is up against.

And Ford being much better.

bedfordwelsh wrote:For some players moving abroad does help/improve them and that in itself allows others to come through but if the Regions have any ambitions they need to not only try and keep hold of the top players as much as possible but also recruit well.

On the flip side you can't blame players for wanting a bit more money or the chance of silverware that they may not get with the Regions, players also may feel they need to move to benefit their International carears.

Take Patchell for instance, I am guessing he feels that Anscombe is seen as the long term No10 for the Blues so (if rumours are true) he is off down West and with Priestland having left he feels he has a chance at establishing himself as their No10 and pushing his Welsh ambitions.

In terms of Welsh players playing abroad (made sure I highlighted specifically who I'm talking about (God, you have to be so careful on here nowadays ), from an individual/family/lifestyle perspective it's often great for the players. Good weather, nice environment good money, etc.  But I can only think of one or two top WELSH players who actually developed and improved as a result of moving abroad:  Stephen Jones (Clermont) and possibly Gareth Thomas (Toulouse).  No one else from Wales has actually returned a better player have they?  In recent times - Dan Lydiate, JD2, Gethin Jenkins, Leigh 1/2p, Mike Phillips, Luke Charteris etc., etc.  Who is actually a better player now?  Some haven't got worse (Charteris) but none have exactly improved their stock or 'developed' IMO.  

Happy to be proven wrong.  Who else has left?  Aled Brew, Alex Popham, James Hook, Matthew Morgan, Rhys Priestland (to early to tell), Owen Williams - actually he looks pretty good but left before establishing himself here so not sure we can include him.

I'd say, from a Welsh perspective, the evidence tend to suggest the opposite of other nations experience.  Leaving doesn't develop.  In a lot of cases it hinders.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Lord Dowlais, these posters are winding you up. It wasn't so long ago that they were telling wales to get their house in order and to stop letting players leave because it was 'damaging the Pro12 product', and that it was leading to a poorer league that sponsors wouldn't want to sponsor. Now that you're pointing out the same thing, that we need to stop the best players leaving, they're saying it doesn't matter. So clearly a wind up. They got ya.

I was just thinking this myself Griff. Hypocrisy at it's highest. On what planet is losing your best players good for the league ? Is this what we see the pro12 as, a development league for the French and English teams ? I for one am very worried about the future of the Pro12.Why ? Because I think it has huge potential. I like it and I want to improve it. But there are people on here who are happy with the status quo. the way we are going the Pro12 will die a slow horrible death. The money in the English and French leagues will ensure this. we need to find ways to keep our best players in our league. Not be happy to see them leave to make room for others.

Just look at the Scottish pro players playing outside Scotland thread. I was almost sick to my stomach reading that thread, they are sounding out players who can be time qualified to play for Scotland. This is not what our league is for. I just wish people could see the wood for the trees.

LD, it's simple.  Just post up a brand new thread saying that you want the Welsh teams to let the top players move abroad to the top teams, playing in more competitive leagues with less player welfare and union management, playing at the business end of major tournaments, and the regions then just play the youth/academy players so that they get exposed to the best of the Ireland, Scottish and Italian teams.  Use the Pro12 as a development league.  The same posters will soon argue the other way and in doing so will agree with your arguments on here.  'Tis the 606 way.  Because we've had the counter argument on here before.  When (welsh) posters have said that they're glad Welsh players were leaving for better things, leaving youngsters to develop unobstructed at the regions, we've had a sh*t storm of abuse about the negative effect this has on the league.  

I get the feeling they're arguing with you and Chunky because, well.... it's you and Chunky.

So I'm wrong?

Please tell me more about Scottish rugby you must know so much about our player's development.

For the last time. We do not have enough pro teams in Scotland to chain our best players in place at Glasgow or Edinburgh. The younger guys would have nowhere to go. As FES has pointed out only 6 of the starting Scotland XXIII would be Exiles.

But hey don't let facts get in the way of your daft arguments and conspiracy theories.  

I didn't mention you.  It's not all about you, you know!

I'm merely pointing out the remarkable change in stance of some of our Pro 12 'brothers' on here over the last few years, which I think is more to do with who posted the topic rather than the content of it.  

Where did I post about Scottish player development?!  Bizarre assumption to make based on what I wrote.

But you are suggesting posters in this thread are saying that LD & Chunk's opinions are not Valid because they are their opinions. That's not true.

I'm opposed to their opinions because I think their opinions are a load of baloney not just because they said it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Priestland should have had far more game time on Saturday but daddy ford blamed every other aspect for Baths loss rather than his sons very poor performance and that's what Preistland is up against.

And Ford being much better.

Not on Saturday he wasn't and every player has a dip in form but if your dad won't drop you then you're onto a winner.

Griff wrote:
LD, it's simple.  Just post up a brand new thread saying that you want the Welsh teams to let the top players move abroad to the top teams, playing in more competitive leagues with less player welfare and union management, playing at the business end of major tournaments, and the regions then just play the youth/academy players so that they get exposed to the best of the Ireland, Scottish and Italian teams.  Use the Pro12 as a development league.  The same posters will soon argue the other way and in doing so will agree with your arguments on here.  'Tis the 606 way.  Because we've had the counter argument on here before.  When (welsh) posters have said that they're glad Welsh players were leaving for better things, leaving youngsters to develop unobstructed at the regions, we've had a sh*t storm of abuse about the negative effect this has on the league.  

I get the feeling they're arguing with you and Chunky because, well.... it's you and Chunky.

Griff, maybe you should go back over some of Chunky and LDs arguments and spot the contradictions in them.

LD is complaining enough isn't being done to keep local stars in the league. This is spite of the fact that the IRFU and WRU have programs in place to do just that. The IRFU program is something that both of our esteemed posters have argued against relentlessly.

Chunky complains about the spending of the Irish being too much and there should be a salary cap in place, wouldn't this limit the leagues ability to retain players?

So Griff tell me who's arguing for the sake of it again?

Griff wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:For some players moving abroad does help/improve them and that in itself allows others to come through but if the Regions have any ambitions they need to not only try and keep hold of the top players as much as possible but also recruit well.

On the flip side you can't blame players for wanting a bit more money or the chance of silverware that they may not get with the Regions, players also may feel they need to move to benefit their International carears.

Take Patchell for instance, I am guessing he feels that Anscombe is seen as the long term No10 for the Blues so (if rumours are true) he is off down West and with Priestland having left he feels he has a chance at establishing himself as their No10 and pushing his Welsh ambitions.

In terms of Welsh players playing abroad (made sure I highlighted specifically who I'm talking about (God, you have to be so careful on here nowadays ), from an individual/family/lifestyle perspective it's often great for the players. Good weather, nice environment good money, etc.  But I can only think of one or two top WELSH players who actually developed and improved as a result of moving abroad:  Stephen Jones (Clermont) and possibly Gareth Thomas (Toulouse).  No one else from Wales has actually returned a better player have they?  In recent times - Dan Lydiate, JD2, Gethin Jenkins, Leigh 1/2p, Mike Phillips, Luke Charteris etc., etc.  Who is actually a better player now?  Some haven't got worse (Charteris) but none have exactly improved their stock or 'developed' IMO.  

Happy to be proven wrong.  Who else has left?  Aled Brew, Alex Popham, James Hook, Matthew Morgan, Rhys Priestland (to early to tell), Owen Williams - actually he looks pretty good but left before establishing himself here so not sure we can include him.

I'd say, from a Welsh perspective, the evidence tend to suggest the opposite of other nations experience.  Leaving doesn't develop.  In a lot of cases it hinders.

Griff,

Pretty much agree with that Jones and Alfie have been the only two that have improved IMO. Roberts and Charteris have had good stints and been successful there but wouldn't say they have vastly improved their game.

I think Jenkins and Lydiate have been the two main ones who have 'failed' for want of a better word the others have just stayed same etc, North had a very good first season with Saints but is off form at the moment (probably due to his knocks).

bedfordwelsh wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Priestland should have had far more game time on Saturday but daddy ford blamed every other aspect for Baths loss rather than his sons very poor performance and that's what Preistland is up against.

And Ford being much better.

Not on Saturday he wasn't and every player has a dip in form but if your dad won't drop you then you're onto a winner.

Oh definitely not on Saturday but you also don't drop a player like Ford for Priestland unless it's for a rest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Priestland should have had far more game time on Saturday but daddy ford blamed every other aspect for Baths loss rather than his sons very poor performance and that's what Preistland is up against.

And Ford being much better.

Not on Saturday he wasn't and every player has a dip in form but if your dad won't drop you then you're onto a winner.

Oh definitely not on Saturday but you also don't drop a player like Ford for Priestland unless it's for a rest.

Even if he repeats those performances regularly?

Probably not but it won't happen, real quality player.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably not but it won't happen, real quality player.

I agree but every player has dips in form at some time or other

I think that there is an important difference in priority which sits behind a number of these opinions and it's worth saying it out loud.

As I understand it, LD is saying that maintaining a strong regional team with stars whom local fans associate with and  will therefore get off their arses to go and watch live should be the priority, with aggregate Welsh player development a secondary consideration to this.

A number of other people have made a different assumption - being that the national team's development is more important and therefore that the priority should be giving as many international players as possible game time each week in competitive leagues. This is my preference but it's clearly not shared by other fans and that is absolutely okay.

I absolutely accept that I might think differently about this if Scotland had more than 2 pro teams. But we don't and that isn't likely to change for at least 5 years, sadly.

George Carlin wrote:As I understand it, LD is saying that maintaining a strong regional team with stars whom local fans associate with and will therefore get off their arses to go and watch live should be the priority, with aggregate Welsh player development a secondary consideration to this.

Welsh player development should not be secondary. Why can't you keep your star players and still develop talent ? Players do not have to move on to give others a chance, if the incumbent is good enough, he will get his chance. Is Sam Davies being blocked at Ospreys because of Dan Biggar ? No he isn't, he actually came on against Cardiff Blues and won the game for Ospreys, so all this players need to go to give others a chance is bollox.

Plenty of English players who have since been capped had to move to gain chances at first team rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Plenty of English players who have since been capped had to move to gain chances at first team rugby.

What has that got to do with developing young talent ?

Because sometimes you just need a run of games to get the development going, which isn't always going to be available at every club with every player not matter how much potential is shown.

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:As I understand it, LD is saying that maintaining a strong regional team with stars whom local fans associate with and  will therefore get off their arses to go and watch live should be the priority, with aggregate Welsh player development a secondary consideration to this.

Welsh player development should not be secondary. Why can't you keep your star players and still develop talent ? Players do not have to move on to give others a chance, if the incumbent is good enough, he will get his chance. Is Sam Davies being blocked at Ospreys because of Dan Biggar ? No he isn't, he actually came on against Cardiff Blues and won the game for Ospreys, so all this players need to go to give others a chance is bollox.

I think the argument goes that there is nothing better than actual game time for developing players and I suppose that whether excellent players will get their chance as a result of injury or squad rotation is really up to the manager in question.

Alan Solomons would play exactly the same Edinburgh 23 for every match in the entire year if it wasn't for the pesky business of players falling over with exhaustion. Conversely, Townsend showed last year at Glasgow that if you have a well known rotation policy, you can indeed keep a lot of stars happy. For a while, at least.

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:As I understand it, LD is saying that maintaining a strong regional team with stars whom local fans associate with and  will therefore get off their arses to go and watch live should be the priority, with aggregate Welsh player development a secondary consideration to this.

Welsh player development should not be secondary. Why can't you keep your star players and still develop talent ? Players do not have to move on to give others a chance, if the incumbent is good enough, he will get his chance. Is Sam Davies being blocked at Ospreys because of Dan Biggar ? No he isn't, he actually came on against Cardiff Blues and won the game for Ospreys, so all this players need to go to give others a chance is bollox.

LD, the problem your missing though is that if Ospreys had kept hold of or resigned (James) Hook would Davies or Biggar be getting the same opportunities?

There comes a time when the more expensive option becomes a less cost effective option. That's where the balance comes in.

George Carlin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:As I understand it, LD is saying that maintaining a strong regional team with stars whom local fans associate with and  will therefore get off their arses to go and watch live should be the priority, with aggregate Welsh player development a secondary consideration to this.

Welsh player development should not be secondary. Why can't you keep your star players and still develop talent ? Players do not have to move on to give others a chance, if the incumbent is good enough, he will get his chance. Is Sam Davies being blocked at Ospreys because of Dan Biggar ? No he isn't, he actually came on against Cardiff Blues and won the game for Ospreys, so all this players need to go to give others a chance is bollox.

I think the argument goes that there is nothing better than actual game time for developing players and I suppose that whether excellent players will get their chance as a result of injury or squad rotation is really up to the manager in question.

Alan Solomons would play exactly the same Edinburgh 23 for every match in the entire year if it wasn't for the pesky business of players falling over with exhaustion. Conversely, Townsend showed last year at Glasgow that if you have a well known rotation policy, you can indeed keep a lot of stars happy. For a while, at least.

The 2 comments in bold should clarify my position beyond all doubt. Hopefully this will help LD understand

I think the Scots are doing fine for a non rugby nation. Glasgow won the league and Edinburgh are getting a bit more competitive too so overall they're both making a good effort.


Whats really holding the league down IMO are the Italians. Two teams almost guaranteed to finish bottom. The worst thing about it is Treviso actually were a decent side when they first entered the league!


Having said that I do think they need time to get things in order and strengthen.
In the 09-10 season Connacht and Scarlets finished the bottom 2. They're the top 2 now.
In the 10-11 season Glasgow were second from bottom only finishing higher than Aironi. That was the first season of the Italians. And Glasgow were there for about a decade at that stage.
The point I'm making is it takes time for teams to organise. Basically the union has to get its house in order firstly. Hopefully the Italians are sorting themselves out now. They're sitting on a big market as their 6 nations attendances show.

Suggestions that the four unions could do to keep country-qualified players in the PRO 12?

Alter any existing play-at-home-to-play-international policy/rules for domestic players to one that is "unless you play in PRO 12, you won't be selected for international squads". Absolutely enforce it - with no exceptions.

Bring in transfer fees for players moving to other clubs outside of the PRO 12.

Enforce a transfer window for PRO12 players - you only get in or out in a certain timeframe during the year.

But the Scottish don't agree Pot Hale. This wouldn't be universally agreed. Like the idea though.

Pot Hale wrote:
Bring in transfer fees for players moving to other clubs outside of the PRO 12.  

Are you serious? What would you be paying for? If a player is out of contract you can't ask for a fee, when a player is out of contract you can hence why Northampton paid for George North

Pot Hale wrote:Suggestions that the four unions could do to keep country-qualified players in the PRO 12?

Alter any existing play-at-home-to-play-international policy/rules for domestic players to one that is "unless you play in PRO 12, you won't be selected for international squads".  Absolutely enforce it - with no exceptions.

Bring in transfer fees for players moving to other clubs outside of the PRO 12.  

Enforce a transfer window for PRO12 players - you only get in or out in a certain timeframe during the year.

Point one simply would not work for scotland nor italy.  With only 2 pro teams there simply is not enough places for players in their home country.

TJ wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Suggestions that the four unions could do to keep country-qualified players in the PRO 12?

Alter any existing play-at-home-to-play-international policy/rules for domestic players to one that is "unless you play in PRO 12, you won't be selected for international squads".  Absolutely enforce it - with no exceptions.

Bring in transfer fees for players moving to other clubs outside of the PRO 12.  

Enforce a transfer window for PRO12 players - you only get in or out in a certain timeframe during the year.

Point one simply would not work for scotland nor italy.  With only 2 pro teams there simply is not enough places for players in their home country.

That isn't what I've said. Why couldn't the change to PRO12 work? In case it's not clear, I'm saying that if a player can't play for say Glasgow or Edinburgh, then he has a choice of ten other clubs to try get a contract with and be considered for test selection.

There's a piece in irish Times today about the IRFU plans/efforts to keep irish players at home. Madigan may move to Munster to get regular game time. Leinsters possible surplus of props and back rowers will see them being distributed to other provinces. DG Ah You is likely to move to Ulster. One of Furlong, Moore or Ross would move to another province, etc, etc.

Could the PRO 12 operate on similar principles at a wider league level encouraging/incentivising players to move around the 12 clubs? Rhys Webb is being considered by Leinster for next season. Could a union to union incentive payment support these kind of inter-PRO 12 transfers? In the longer term, it might help develop a third team in Scotland and Italy.

Pot Hale wrote:
That isn't what I've said. Why couldn't the change to PRO12 work?

That's been explained to you

Where's it explained? Keeping players in the Pro 12 to qualify rather than the home country may work? Would need some negotiation across the unions etc but not completely unrealistic surely?

I've edited post above to explain further what I meant.

TJ explained how the only Pro12 players can play at international level won't work for Italy and Scotland, they don't have the squad places and possibly the finances to enforce this. With the international sides being the money makers for the union too a deterioration here could kill the club sides too

I have briefly explained that transfer fees cannot be summarily introduced, most players move at the end of their contracts and therefore there is no fee to be paid for. Not only would it probably have the opposite affect and cause players to leave the league, why would you work for an institution that is willing to hold on to you against your will?
Its also against the law, the Bosman ruling in football covers ALL sports

So the ruling which works brilliantly for England wouldn't work for the Pro 12. Thought TJ was talking about keeping Scottish players at Scottish clubs above? This would be about keeping Scottish players at Pro 12 clubs, ie Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Italian.

It works for the AP and RFU what benefit is it to the WRU to have say Ruaidrh Jackson at one of the Regions? They want Welsh players at 10 for the Regions just like the SRU want Scottish ones in Scotland and the IRFU Irish ones at the Provinces

Given that Italy and Scotland don't have enough from for their own players too, its will be a one way street for the Welsh and Irish who are fighting as it is to keep their own players

This is about keeping the best players within the league though rather than about Welsh at Welsh etc. The marquee 6Ns names in the Pro 12. I'm sure the Welsh Pro 12 teams would love a few of the others stars in their teams surely. Would anyone not want a Hogg at full back for instance?

No 7&1/2 wrote:This is about keeping the best players within the league though rather than about Welsh at Welsh etc. The marquee 6Ns names in the Pro 12. I'm sure the Welsh Pro 12 teams would love a few of the others stars in their teams surely. Would anyone not want a Hogg at full back for instance?

We had a chance to sign him at Ulster and Ulster said 'NO!'

Read what I've said again, the Irish and Welsh are struggling to keep their players as it is. Being forced to sign Scottish and Italian players would make that more difficult and Im sure those fans would prefer to have a local lad than Giovanni Doe in their team

The Scottish and Italians can't keep hold of them financially, paying others to do it won't work either!

I have read it. The Irish and Welsh may benefit also if the rule were actually enforced? Just an idea for keeping the names in the Pro 12 and I do agree more with yourself than the original thoughts that people will only turn up for a big name rather than a good team.

marty2086 wrote:It works for the AP and RFU what benefit is it to the WRU to have say Ruaidrh Jackson at one of the Regions? They want Welsh players at 10 for the Regions just like the SRU want Scottish ones in Scotland and the IRFU Irish ones at the Provinces

Given that Italy and Scotland don't have enough from for their own players too, its will be a one way street for the Welsh and Irish who are fighting as it is to keep their own players

Marty - of course a union ideally wants its own players at home. But if a player wants/has to move because there's no room, then is it better that they move to a club in their same league with the same season, international breaks, player management rules, etc or to a club that will flog them, be unavailable for test training due to club commitments?  

Leinster are looking for a new scrum half for next season with Reddan and Boss on the way out. Options are:
1. Use surplus within provinces - none available
2. Use Irish player who's playing abroad - one available -Hart at Grenoble.
3. Player with Irish roots available elsewhere - none available.
4. Use available player from within PRO12 - Rhys Webb being looked at
5. Use player from elsewhere - two players from NZ who could be IQ through residency being looked at.

At the moment, Leinster can go with any of those choices and are. I'm suggesting they would have to go through them in the above order.

Such a policy would reduce the number of Welsh and Irish qualified players in the league.

LondonTiger wrote:Such a policy would reduce the number of Welsh and Irish qualified players in the league.

Why?

Pot Hale wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It works for the AP and RFU what benefit is it to the WRU to have say Ruaidrh Jackson at one of the Regions? They want Welsh players at 10 for the Regions just like the SRU want Scottish ones in Scotland and the IRFU Irish ones at the Provinces

Given that Italy and Scotland don't have enough from for their own players too, its will be a one way street for the Welsh and Irish who are fighting as it is to keep their own players

Marty - of course a union ideally wants its own players at home. But if a player wants/has to move because there's no room, then is it better that they move to a club in their same league with the same season, international breaks, player management rules, etc or to a club that will flog them, be unavailable for test training due to club commitments?  

Leinster are looking for a new scrum half for next season with Reddan and Boss on the way out. Options are:
1. Use surplus within provinces - none available
2. Use Irish player who's playing abroad - one available -Hart at Grenoble.
3. Use available player from within PRO12 - Rhys Webb being looked at
4. Use player from elsewhere - two players from NZ who could be IQ through being looked at.

At the moment, Leinster can go with any of those choices and are. I'm suggesting they would have to go through them in the above order.  

If Webbs the best option then so be it but what is the benefit to Leinster signing him if they could get someone better? Considering one of the players they are linked with is Tanaka from the Highlanders thatd be more beneficial to the league than Webb

But he wasn't involved in the 6Ns, why would anyone be interested in watching him? (tongue in cheek btw).

Pot Hale wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Such a policy would reduce the number of Welsh and Irish qualified players in the league.

Why?

the idea seemed to come about to keep Italian and Scots in the league and give them chances. so you need to increase the number of those playing, and the only way to do that is they head off to Wales and Ireland to steal spots from local lads.

With a finite number of places for one nationality to grow, another must drop.

According to Statbunker (not always accurate but indicative) there are the following in Pro12:

Irish 136
Welsh 124
Scottish 66
Italian 65

Pot Hale wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Such a policy would reduce the number of Welsh and Irish qualified players in the league.

Why?

Leinster have no room for Ian Madigan, what good does it do them then if they are forced to take in Scottish and Italian players? Ulster have the same problem at centre and on the wing as we've lost Whittan, Seymour, Farrell and Allen because there was no room for them