The Pro12 teams need to do something or else.

First topic message reminder :

Pro12 teams will not be able to compete with this, something needs to be doen, and done fast. There will be no decent players in the Pro12 at this rate, Rhys Priestland is earning 290K a year at bath, George North 300K at Northampton how are we supposed to compete with that ? I mean come on, Bath already had George Ford, I doubt Priestland will be a bench warmer on that money. Also news that teams are chasing the likes of Madigan, all our best players will be in France or England before long. Take a look at the money being thrown around in the Aviva:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-set-earn-staggering-10560435

marty2086 wrote:Phillips stays does Rhys Webb become the player he has?

Who is Phillips ?

marty2086 wrote:If Halfpenny stays does Anscombe come?

Two different postitions, one is a fullback/wing, the other is an outside half.

marty2086 wrote:What does it do for Rhys Patchell?

He's off to Scarlets apparently

marty2086 wrote:If Day stays at Scarlets does Jake Ball get the same opportunities?

Day does not play for Scarlets, he plays for Bath, if you mean Dominic Day. I do not know of any other player with that name in Wales.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

he might not be a loss to you as an Ulster supporter, but he is a loss to Munster and a loss to the Pro12. When the Pro12 advertise the league, a picture of him in a Munster shirt would make a big difference.

a big difference to whom?

The same effect could probably be generated by:

Warburton in a Cardiff shirt.
Ford in an Edinburgh shirt.
Best in an Ulster shirt.
Heaslip in a Leinster shirt.
Biggar in an Ospreys shirt.
Gray in a Glasgow shirt.

The pro 12 is not as barren of talent as you are making out. There are big names who still ply their trade in the pro12 week in week out.

Sure it would be nice to have all the Scottish internationals playing for Edinburgh and Glasgow, however as I said before where do we develop the next generation and get them exposed to pro rugby? Far easier to offload the established guys rather than have our emerging talent fading into obscurity.

To lose any of those players from the Pro12 would be a travesty. But that is what we are all starring at. Well, the one's of us who have the foresight to see what is happening around us that is.

If we do not come together and do something, we will only be seeing our best players when they are representing our countries. For me that would be a travesty.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Sure it would be nice to have all the Scottish internationals playing for Edinburgh and Glasgow, however as I said before where do we develop the next generation and get them exposed to pro rugby? Far easier to offload the established guys rather than have our emerging talent fading into obscurity.

This is it. An assembly line is no good if you don't take the finished product off the end of it.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

he might not be a loss to you as an Ulster supporter, but he is a loss to Munster and a loss to the Pro12. When the Pro12 advertise the league, a picture of him in a Munster shirt would make a big difference.

As the assertion from notch was big money from Toulon or retire from all rugby, he would have been lost to Munster anyway.

LondonTiger is right, thats exactly the point I'm making. Of course he's a loss, but its a loss that we would have suffered regardless of him moving to Toulon. It was always his plan to retire from international rugby after the World Cup earlier this year, and he wasn't going to continue to play for Munster after that- he'd be blocking younger players from stepping up to replace him. That was his original plan; to retire from rugby altogether. It makes no difference to Irish Rugby whether he's off sunning himself on a beach somewhere or topping up his retirement fund in Toulon.

All the greatest players retire- it's a good thing, it gives new players a chance to shine. When BOD retired we had to get on with it. When POC retired it's the same. One day, even Phil Vickery will retire.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Phillips stays does Rhys Webb become the player he has?

Who is Phillips ?

marty2086 wrote:If Halfpenny stays does Anscombe come?

Two different postitions, one is a fullback/wing, the other is an outside half.

marty2086 wrote:What does it do for Rhys Patchell?

He's off to Scarlets apparently

marty2086 wrote:If Day stays at Scarlets does Jake Ball get the same opportunities?

Day does not play for Scarlets, he plays for Bath, if you mean Dominic Day. I do not know of any other player with that name in Wales.

Are you being deliberately ignorant or just obtuse?

Who is Phillips? Mike Phillips? I thought you were a Welsh rugby fan?

Gareth Anscombe can play full back as well as fly half, he's actually a better 15

And Dom Day left Scarlets for Bath, so if he stays does Jake Ball get the same amount of game time, the same with Webb at Ospreys if William Michael Phillips (just so theres no misunderstanding as to who Im referring too) stays?

Is it me or has this thread just changed name? Not sure if it's just my computer having a melt down

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell was going to retire then was persuaded to extend his career by two years. There was no way he was ever going to be playing international rugby beyond the RWC in 2015 so he doesn't really count as being lost to us. Either he went to Toulon or he retired altogether. Same difference as far as we are concerned.

he might not be a loss to you as an Ulster supporter, but he is a loss to Munster and a loss to the Pro12. When the Pro12 advertise the league, a picture of him in a Munster shirt would make a big difference.

a big difference to whom?

The same effect could probably be generated by:

Warburton in a Cardiff shirt.
Ford in an Edinburgh shirt.
Best in an Ulster shirt.
Heaslip in a Leinster shirt.
Biggar in an Ospreys shirt.
Gray in a Glasgow shirt.

The pro 12 is not as barren of talent as you are making out. There are big names who still ply their trade in the pro12 week in week out.

Sure it would be nice to have all the Scottish internationals playing for Edinburgh and Glasgow, however as I said before where do we develop the next generation and get them exposed to pro rugby? Far easier to offload the established guys rather than have our emerging talent fading into obscurity.

To lose any of those players from the Pro12 would be a travesty. But that is what we are all starring at. Well, the one's of us who have the foresight to see what is happening around us that is.

If we do not come together and do something, we will only be seeing our best players when they are representing our countries. For me that would be a travesty.

It's not a travesty! Had Denton not moved onto Bath we would have to bench a player like Watson. Had Blair not moved on to Brieve we wouldn't have been able to develop Laidlaw. Had Laidlaw not moved on to Glaws we wouldn't have seen Hidalgo-Clyne develop. Had Richie Gray stayed at Glasgow his little brother Johnny would have struggled to get starts instead now he captains Glasgow.

On the other side of the coin Ruiridh Jackson, who was bench warming at Glasgow is not burning up the Aviva as a key member of Wasps and getting regular game time while Russell continues to develop at Glasgow.

Visser playing regularly for Quins scoring hattricks whilst a player like Kinghorn is getting pro 12 exposure!

I really am struggling to see the negative spin you are putting on Pro12 exiles...

The only example of a desirable scottish exile for Edinburgh is Duncan Taylor (the sarries 12) what a treat it would be to have him playing for Edinburgh. With the exception of Scott the cupboard for centres at Edinburgh is particularly bare.

marty2086 wrote:Are you being deliberately ignorant or just obtuse?

I knew it would not be long for you to revert to type and start insulting me. Mike Phillips is not playing in Wales at the moment. So how is he going to stunt Rhys Webb ? If anything Phillips went because Justin Marshall was ahead of him for Ospreys, Rhys Webb was nowhere near Ospreys first team then, if anything, Khan Fatual'i stunted Webb's career.

marty2086 wrote:Gareth Anscombe can play full back as well as fly half, he's actually a better 15

Where do you get this from, the last WC where both our fullbacks were injured so he had to go there out of necessity ? He is a 10. That is why Patchell wants to move, because he wants to be a first choice 10.

marty2086 wrote:
And Dom Day left Scarlets for Bath, so if he stays does Jake Ball get the same amount of game time

Jake Ball is twice the player Dom Day is. Jake Ball would not lose game time to Dominic Day.

EWT Spoons wrote:Is it me or has this thread just changed name?  Not sure if it's just my computer having a melt down

Mine has too, I thought I was losing the plot

Cheers, glad to know it's not just me.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The only example of a desirable scottish exile for Edinburgh is Duncan Taylor (the sarries 12) what a treat it would be to have him playing for Edinburgh. With the exception of Scott the cupboard for centres at Edinburgh is particularly bare.

What a treat for all of us if we could see the best Scottish players in our league more often.

EWT Spoons wrote:Cheers, glad to know it's not just me.

How has this happened ?

I will try and change it back.

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:Cheers, glad to know it's not just me.

How has this happened ?

I will try and change it back.

That's better. Thanks

From a provincial pov, my biggest worry are these NIQ restrictions. The provinces could be sigining better players such as Stephen Moore but the IRFU are blocking them.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Are you being deliberately ignorant or just obtuse?

I knew it would not be long for you to revert to type and start insulting me. Mike Phillips is not playing in Wales at the moment. So how is he going to stunt Rhys Webb ? If anything Phillips went because Justin Marshall was ahead of him for Ospreys, Rhys Webb was nowhere near Ospreys first team then, if anything, Khan Fatual'i stunted Webb's career.

marty2086 wrote:Gareth Anscombe can play full back as well as fly half, he's actually a better 15

Where do you get this from, the last WC where both our fullbacks were injured so he had to go there out of necessity ? He is a 10. That is why Patchell wants to move, because he wants to be a first choice 10.

marty2086 wrote:
And Dom Day left Scarlets for Bath, so if he stays does Jake Ball get the same amount of game time

Jake Ball is twice the player Dom Day is. Jake Ball would not lose game time to Dominic Day.

Revert to type? I talk about the RWC, the Welsh squad and use the name Phillips and you ask who is he and Im insulting you asking if its deliberate or not?

So would you say Ospreys losing players to France and the AP was beneficial since Webb, sorry Rhys Webb(we wouldn't want any ambiguity about who Im talking about), was able to get more game time and develop?

I know Anscombe is a better 15 because he was an awful 10 for the Chiefs and was moved back to 15 where he flourished, he's not exactly set the world alight in Cardiff either at 10

LeinsterFan4life wrote:From a provincial pov, my biggest worry are these NIQ restrictions. The provinces could be sigining better players such as Stephen Moore but the IRFU are blocking them.

Foley said Munster never tried to sign him

marty2086 wrote:
So would you say Ospreys losing players to France and the AP was beneficial since Webb, sorry Rhys Webb

No, he would have learned a lot form Phillips. He would have been his back up, then ultimately his successor.

marty2086 wrote:I know Anscombe is a better 15 because he was an awful 10 for the Chiefs and was moved back to 15 where he flourished, he's not exactly set the world alight in Cardiff either at 10

Yet his position is 10. No matter what you think of him and his abilities.

TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

What a totally backwards way of looking at a serious player drain issue.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
So would you say Ospreys losing players to France and the AP was beneficial since Webb, sorry Rhys Webb

No, he would have learned a lot form Phillips. He would have been his back up, then ultimately his successor.

marty2086 wrote:I know Anscombe is a better 15 because he was an awful 10 for the Chiefs and was moved back to 15 where he flourished, he's not exactly set the world alight in Cardiff either at 10

Yet his position is 10. No matter what you think of him and his abilities.

It really happened him not having Mike Phillips to learn from

Just me Pat Lam and Dave Rennie who seem to think hes a better 15

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

It's fairly straightforwrd. There's only a finite number of starting places.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

What a totally backwards way of looking at a serious player drain issue.

How is it backwards to back young players? To think its unhealthy to rely on a core group for too long?

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

But that is not the point, we lost Mike Phillips to big money in France, which then by yours and others opinions opened up a space for Rhys Webb, who we could now lose out to big money from...... do you see the bigger picture now ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

What a totally backwards way of looking at a serious player drain issue.

Chunks, you are clearly not answering my comments. I'll copy and paste them again :

Had Denton not moved onto Bath we would have to bench a player like Watson. Had Blair not moved on to Brieve we wouldn't have been able to develop Laidlaw. Had Laidlaw not moved on to Glaws we wouldn't have seen Hidalgo-Clyne develop. Had Richie Gray stayed at Glasgow his little brother Johnny would have struggled to get starts instead now he captains Glasgow.

On the other side of the coin Ruiridh Jackson, who was bench warming at Glasgow is not burning up the Aviva as a key member of Wasps and getting regular game time while Russell continues to develop at Glasgow.

Visser playing regularly for Quins scoring hattricks whilst a player like Kinghorn is getting pro 12 exposure!

I really am struggling to see the negative spin you are putting on Pro12 exiles...

Please in layman's terms please tell me how these players playing in England or France is bad for Scottish rugby.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

It's fairly straightforwrd. There's only a finite number of starting places.

Where does it end LP ? We lose players, we replace them, then the vultures circle around our replacements, we cannot keep replacing or best players with kids, it will get the regions nowhere.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

What a totally backwards way of looking at a serious player drain issue.

How is it backwards to back young players? To think its unhealthy to rely on a core group for too long?

Because the aim should be to keep the players your academy has just spent 8 years developing into a world class talent. If you're happy to stick an 18 year old in and ship the brightest players off overseas, what is the point in trying to be an elite sports team at all?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

What a totally backwards way of looking at a serious player drain issue.

Chunks, you are clearly not answering my comments. I'll copy and paste them again :

Had Denton not moved onto Bath we would have to bench a player like Watson. Had Blair not moved on to Brieve we wouldn't have been able to develop Laidlaw. Had Laidlaw not moved on to Glaws we wouldn't have seen Hidalgo-Clyne develop. Had Richie Gray stayed at Glasgow his little brother Johnny would have struggled to get starts instead now he captains Glasgow.

On the other side of the coin Ruiridh Jackson, who was bench warming at Glasgow is not burning up the Aviva as a key member of Wasps and getting regular game time while Russell continues to develop at Glasgow.

Visser playing regularly for Quins scoring hattricks whilst a player like Kinghorn is getting pro 12 exposure!

I really am struggling to see the negative spin you are putting on Pro12 exiles...

Please in layman's terms please tell me how these players playing in England or Scotland is bad for Scottish rugby.

I know which players make the average fan turn on the tv and want to watch rugby matches. Visser, Denton etc.

That's the point. And that is what will forever hold this league backwards in terms of raising revenue.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Because the aim should be to keep the players your academy has just spent 8 years developing into a world class talent. If you're happy to stick an 18 year old in and ship the brightest players off overseas, what is the point in trying to be an elite sports team at all?

THIS 100%.

It's not even as though the teams that produce these players, and spend a fortune on getting them to where they are will be rewarded with a transfer fee or anything. If people are happy for their teams to be mediocre and not keep their best players then fine, do not moan and whinge when your team gets humped week in week out.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

It's fairly straightforwrd. There's only a finite number of starting places.

Where does it end LP ? We lose players, we replace them, then the vultures circle around our replacements, we cannot keep replacing or best players with kids, it will get the regions nowhere.

Ultimately, that's what all sides have always done. If everyone stayed, the young players would have to leave - and the regions / clubs would get a lot less money for them to reinvest.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Ultimately, that's what all sides have always done. If everyone stayed, the young players would have to leave - and the regions / clubs would get a lot less money for them to reinvest.

So as a Dragons fan, you would be happy to see Falatua leave then ?

And that would open up a space for who exactly ?

And how would this be good for Dragons ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:TYhe poinbt vsomeone was making LD, is that these players leaving Wales gave others a chance to shine and be better. If they had not left the development of future stars would have been stunted.

What a totally backwards way of looking at a serious player drain issue.

Chunks, you are clearly not answering my comments. I'll copy and paste them again :

Had Denton not moved onto Bath we would have to bench a player like Watson. Had Blair not moved on to Brieve we wouldn't have been able to develop Laidlaw. Had Laidlaw not moved on to Glaws we wouldn't have seen Hidalgo-Clyne develop. Had Richie Gray stayed at Glasgow his little brother Johnny would have struggled to get starts instead now he captains Glasgow.

On the other side of the coin Ruiridh Jackson, who was bench warming at Glasgow is not burning up the Aviva as a key member of Wasps and getting regular game time while Russell continues to develop at Glasgow.

Visser playing regularly for Quins scoring hattricks whilst a player like Kinghorn is getting pro 12 exposure!

I really am struggling to see the negative spin you are putting on Pro12 exiles...

Please in layman's terms please tell me how these players playing in England or Scotland is bad for Scottish rugby.

I know which players make the average fan turn on the tv and want to watch rugby matches. Visser, Denton etc.

That's the point. And that is what will forever hold this league backwards in terms of raising revenue.

I don't want fans turning on the TV to watch Visser or Denton. I want fans to turn on to watch Edinburgh.

I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

The casual fan would never do that unless he knew he would be watching the international players that the thousands turn up at Murryfield to watch every 6N home game. This is the issue with people on here, you cannot see the wood for the trees. But alas you could be happy with mediocrity.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Ultimately, that's what all sides have always done. If everyone stayed, the young players would have to leave - and the regions / clubs would get a lot less money for them to reinvest.

So as a Dragons fan, you would be happy to see Falatua leave then ?

And that would open up a space for who exactly ?

And how would this be good for Dragons ?

If Faletau had gone sooner, Jack Condy might have stayed in Gwent instead of signing for the Scarlets. As it is, Ed Jackson's been great for us this season, and will be available for every game.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Ultimately, that's what all sides have always done. If everyone stayed, the young players would have to leave - and the regions / clubs would get a lot less money for them to reinvest.

So as a Dragons fan, you would be happy to see Falatua leave then ?

And that would open up a space for who exactly ?

And how would this be good for Dragons ?

If Faletau had gone sooner, Jack Condy might have stayed in Gwent instead of signing for the Scarlets. As it is, Ed Jackson's been great for us this season, and will be available for every game.

And that is good for Dragons because ?

All those players are inferior to Faletau.You cannot tell me one bit that Dragons would be better without Faletau.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I don't want fans turning on the TV to watch Visser or Denton. I want fans to turn on to watch Edinburgh.

Then you should want their bigger names to stay.

I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys.

You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

I think you're missing the point a bit here. This is about the league as a whole, it's potential to earn revenue through tv deals and sponsors from big companies in London, Cardiff and further afield. This isn't about getting Rabbie McJobbie to the game instead of watching it in the boozer. And to do this, the big names have to be kept.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Ultimately, that's what all sides have always done. If everyone stayed, the young players would have to leave - and the regions / clubs would get a lot less money for them to reinvest.

So as a Dragons fan, you would be happy to see Falatua leave then ?

And that would open up a space for who exactly ?

And how would this be good for Dragons ?

If Faletau had gone sooner, Jack Condy might have stayed in Gwent instead of signing for the Scarlets. As it is, Ed Jackson's been great for us this season, and will be available for every game.

Condy hasn't even played for the Scarlets yet!

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Because the aim should be to keep the players your academy has just spent 8 years developing into a world class talent. If you're happy to stick an 18 year old in and ship the brightest players off overseas, what is the point in trying to be an elite sports team at all?

THIS 100%.

It's not even as though the teams that produce these players, and spend a fortune on getting them to where they are will be rewarded with a transfer fee or anything. If people are happy for their teams to be mediocre and not keep their best players then fine, do not moan and whinge when your team gets humped week in week out.

This isn't a league problem its a Wales problem and indicative to what is still an on going problem there

http://rugbylad.com/wru-withdraw-scott-williams-dual-contract-offer/

The only world class player who has left Ireland is Sexton and he's back. As an Ulster fan we hate seeing home grown players leave but all have been for reasons other than financial. Allen and Seymour both left because they have Trimble, Bowe and Gilroy ahead of them and had the carrot of international rugby dangled in front of them. Paddy McAllister had a bad injury and went to France to get game time as he had Black and Court ahead of him, who left because he was offered longer contract at LI. Farrell and Whitten both left because Ulster are overstocked at centre and Niall Annett left to get game time as he had Best and Herring in front of him.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Ultimately, that's what all sides have always done. If everyone stayed, the young players would have to leave - and the regions / clubs would get a lot less money for them to reinvest.

So as a Dragons fan, you would be happy to see Falatua leave then ?

And that would open up a space for who exactly ?

And how would this be good for Dragons ?

If Faletau had gone sooner, Jack Condy might have stayed in Gwent instead of signing for the Scarlets. As it is, Ed Jackson's been great for us this season, and will be available for every game.

And that is good for Dragons because ?

All those players are inferior to Faletau.You cannot tell me one bit that Dragons would be better without Faletau.

I'm not trying to tell you that.

marty2086 wrote:This isn't a league problem its a Wales problem and indicative to what is still an on going problem there

I think you will find that it is a bigger problem in Scotland than it is in Wales, and the fact that we are all in the same league makes it a league problem, it's just that it has not got as far as Ireland yet, but it will, trust me it will. The IRFU will not be able to compete with the rich clubs in France and England, lets not forget, between the two leagues there are lots of rich clubs, and the IRFU cannot fight them all off.

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

The casual fan would never do that unless he knew he would be watching the international players that the thousands turn up at Murryfield to watch every 6N home game. This is the issue with people on here, you cannot see the wood for the trees. But alas you could be happy with mediocrity.

As a Scottish fan we have to settle for mediocrity otherwise we wouldn't watch any rugby at all. Scotland has been poor in taking to the professional game for many reasons. It has also been criminally mismanaged and that is apparent by the absolute dross Scotland has produced for the last 15 years. Couple that with the tribal mentallity of the Scottish rugby heartland of the borders it meant the professional game in Scotland has really suffered.

The fact that Scotland now has the players (Hogg, Bennet, Gray/Gray, Denton, Dickinson, Ford, Laidlaw) to be able to compete and play good rugby is a testament to the success of the pro12. Scotland and Wales both had good world cups whilst France, England and Ireland had a torrid time.

Comparing the pro12 to the unrestrained spending power of the top14 in particular is not a good comparison. Especially when you look at how poor France have been in recent years since their big spending league is saturated with foreign talent.

Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not trying to tell you that.

Well, what are you trying to tell me then ? What, it does not matter if all our best players go ? Well it does matter, because I want the regions to be the best they can, and losing their best players is not the best way to go about gaining that aim.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

The casual fan would never do that unless he knew he would be watching the international players that the thousands turn up at Murryfield to watch every 6N home game. This is the issue with people on here, you cannot see the wood for the trees. But alas you could be happy with mediocrity.

As a Scottish fan we have to settle for mediocrity otherwise we wouldn't watch any rugby at all. Scotland has been poor in taking to the professional game for many reasons. It has also been criminally mismanaged and that is apparent by the absolute dross Scotland has produced for the last 15 years. Couple that with the tribal mentallity of the Scottish rugby heartland of the borders it meant the professional game in Scotland has really suffered.

The fact that Scotland now has the players (Hogg, Bennet, Gray/Gray, Denton, Dickinson, Ford, Laidlaw) to be able to compete and play good rugby is a testament to the success of the pro12. Scotland and Wales both had good world cups whilst France, England and Ireland had a torrid time.

Comparing the pro12 to the unrestrained spending power of the top14 in particular is not a good comparison. Especially when you look at how poor France have been in recent years since their big spending league is saturated with foreign talent.

Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

And this attitude is symptomatic of a league that exists to feed international rugby, rather than one that exists to flourish independently.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I don't want fans turning on the TV to watch Visser or Denton. I want fans to turn on to watch Edinburgh.

Then you should want their bigger names to stay.

I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys.

You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

I think you're missing the point a bit here. This is about the league as a whole, it's potential to earn revenue through tv deals and sponsors from big companies in London, Cardiff and further afield. This isn't about getting Rabbie McJobbie to the game instead of watching it in the boozer. And to do this, the big names have to be kept.

That is a determent to Scottish rugby. We have no room to develop talent and expose said talent to pro rugby in Scotland outside the prism of Edinburgh and Glasgow. The established players have to move on to allow the game in Scotland to grow and produce the next generation. As I said had Denton, Laidlaw and Visser not moved on Watson, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne and Kinghorn would have all probably been left languishing in the amateur leagues.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

The casual fan would never do that unless he knew he would be watching the international players that the thousands turn up at Murryfield to watch every 6N home game. This is the issue with people on here, you cannot see the wood for the trees. But alas you could be happy with mediocrity.

As a Scottish fan we have to settle for mediocrity otherwise we wouldn't watch any rugby at all. Scotland has been poor in taking to the professional game for many reasons. It has also been criminally mismanaged and that is apparent by the absolute dross Scotland has produced for the last 15 years. Couple that with the tribal mentallity of the Scottish rugby heartland of the borders it meant the professional game in Scotland has really suffered.

The fact that Scotland now has the players (Hogg, Bennet, Gray/Gray, Denton, Dickinson, Ford, Laidlaw) to be able to compete and play good rugby is a testament to the success of the pro12. Scotland and Wales both had good world cups whilst France, England and Ireland had a torrid time.

Comparing the pro12 to the unrestrained spending power of the top14 in particular is not a good comparison. Especially when you look at how poor France have been in recent years since their big spending league is saturated with foreign talent.

Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

And this attitude is symptomatic of a league that exists to feed international rugby, rather than one that exists to flourish independently.

Both Edinburgh and Glasgow exist to feed the Scottish National team. That's why they are funded by the SRU. It clearly isn't a bad thing since Glasgow are reigning pro 12 champs.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

I am not complaining, I am concerned. Concerned for the teams in the Pro12, concerned for the Pro12 itself. Yes it is all hunky dory at international level, but when I watch my teams week in week out, I want to see them be the best they can be, and that is by keeping their best players, thus this would make our league more attractive to the casual fans who rock up in their thousands on international day, and more attractive to potential sponsors, it's the future of the Pro12 I am concerned about, but you and a few others think that nothing is wrong.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I want fans to be just as excited about the new guys as they are about the more experienced guys. You also hit the nail on the head, I'd much rather they didn't turn on the TV at all. I'd much rather they wrapped up and went along to Murrayfield or Meggetland to watch Edinburgh play.

The casual fan would never do that unless he knew he would be watching the international players that the thousands turn up at Murryfield to watch every 6N home game. This is the issue with people on here, you cannot see the wood for the trees. But alas you could be happy with mediocrity.

As a Scottish fan we have to settle for mediocrity otherwise we wouldn't watch any rugby at all. Scotland has been poor in taking to the professional game for many reasons. It has also been criminally mismanaged and that is apparent by the absolute dross Scotland has produced for the last 15 years. Couple that with the tribal mentallity of the Scottish rugby heartland of the borders it meant the professional game in Scotland has really suffered.

The fact that Scotland now has the players (Hogg, Bennet, Gray/Gray, Denton, Dickinson, Ford, Laidlaw) to be able to compete and play good rugby is a testament to the success of the pro12. Scotland and Wales both had good world cups whilst France, England and Ireland had a torrid time.

Comparing the pro12 to the unrestrained spending power of the top14 in particular is not a good comparison. Especially when you look at how poor France have been in recent years since their big spending league is saturated with foreign talent.

Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

And this attitude is symptomatic of a league that exists to feed international rugby, rather than one that exists to flourish independently.

Both Edinburgh and Glasgow exist to feed the Scottish National team. That's why they are funded by the SRU. It clearly isn't a bad thing since Glasgow are reigning pro 12 champs.

But totally and utterly detrimental to the league as a product and therefore a strategy which is hindering revenue increases.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:This isn't a league problem its a Wales problem and indicative to what is still an on going problem there

I think you will find that it is a bigger problem in Scotland than it is in Wales, and the fact that we are all in the same league makes it a league problem, it's just that it has not got as far as Ireland yet, but it will, trust me it will. The IRFU will not be able to compete with the rich clubs in France and England, lets not forget, between the two leagues there are lots of rich clubs, and the IRFU cannot fight them all off.

Given that the Top14 have introduced greater restrictions towards their salary cap their spending will fall, until they find new ways around it

You have Scottish fans telling you they don't see a problem with players leaving yet you're saying it is? The only player that left the league in Scotland that sees a drop in quality is Matawalu, Visser had a poor season last year and this is down to how Edinburgh play now so not a great loss

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's actually Wales who have taken two of Glasgow's key players: Barclay and DTH.

Those two were discarded by Glasgow weren't they ?

It's true that Barclay seemed to fall out with the club (and Scotland), but 100% not the case with DTH. Most Glasgow fans would stab themselves to have DTH back.

But DTH was not offered a new contract. He even wanted to stay there, but Glasgow would not give him a contract. So in a sense, he was discarded.

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Either I am missing your point or I haven't taken my meds this morning but I really cannot fathom why you are complaining...

I am not complaining, I am concerned. Concerned for the teams in the Pro12, concerned for the Pro12 itself. Yes it is all hunky dory at international level, but when I watch my teams week in week out, I want to see them be the best they can be, and that is by keeping their best players, thus this would make our league more attractive to the casual fans who rock up in their thousands on international day, and more attractive to potential sponsors, it's the future of the Pro12 I am concerned about, but you and a few others think that nothing is wrong.

You have again hit the nail on the head for me. I care more about Scotland than I do about Edinburgh. My team the Caledonian Reds were disbanded about 10 years ago. I support Edinburgh by default but have no true loyalty to the team that I can speak of.

We only have 2 choices in Scotland and it seems to be east or west coast orientated.