Welsh Regions must be allowed more foreign players to compete, insists Ospreys chief Andrew Hore

First topic message reminder :

I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

I must agree with Mikey there.

The only time Melon had any sort of impact on Harris was when he was at a 90 degree angle

Risca Rev wrote:I must agree with Mikey there.

Well there's a surprise.

Need to be more flexible on the NWQ quota imo. Availabilty of suitable players whether they are Welsh or not varies all the time. Adhering to an arbitary figure of 6 makes no sense.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Need to be more flexible on the NWQ quota imo. Availabilty of suitable players whether they are Welsh or not varies all the time. Adhering to an arbitary figure of 6 makes no sense.

Excellent point Dave. Fully agree.

GavinDragon wrote:

Agreed. Did the figures, there are approx 80 pro players playing in the top two divisions in France and England.

Say there are 35 Welsh pros per region - 140 in Wales. That is a professional* pool of 220 rugby players for Gats to choose from.

I think foreign players are a necessary evil. But only in certain positions. And I think we have to acknowledge how the academies are not really bearing fruit in certain positions. For example, we now have four very good opensides in Wales, each getting game time each week with each region. We are also fairly well stocked at scrum half and outside half. This will only continue year on year.

However, there are some positions and type of players which we always struggle for depth in. No8 & TH's being a prime example.

I think 6 NWQ is about right. If you recruit wisely, you can use those slots to recruit good, seasoned leaders to give you a spine which should serve you well when your internationals are away.

I think the Ospreys haven't recruited well from overseas in a couple of seasons.

*bear in mind some of these play in the second tier of the English league

The AIs i'd suggest are a necessary evil especially the 4th (Grrr!) and I quite like having foreigners in our teams even the not so good ones. They bring something different and add to the tapestry. Also don't forget that not all supporters of the 4 Welsh teams are Welsh, so opinions will differ no doubt.

wayne wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I must agree with Mikey there.

Well there's a surprise.

Just a bit petty mind. No counter arguement, just more angry old man again.

Risca Rev wrote:

wayne wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I must agree with Mikey there.

Well there's a surprise.

Just a bit petty mind. No counter arguement, just more angry old man again.

Yep. I also don't know why that when we all discuss welsh rugby on here and somebody disagrees their usual retort is to get bitchy about the Dragons - it's somewhat confusing for me.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

wayne wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I must agree with Mikey there.

Well there's a surprise.

Just a bit petty mind. No counter arguement, just more angry old man again.

Yep. I also don't know why that when we all discuss welsh rugby on here and somebody disagrees their usual retort is to get bitchy about the Dragons - it's somewhat confusing for me.

Not petty in any way, just following the masters.

Griff wrote:

Shifty wrote:Welsh regions can't afford the better foreign players anymore and we have enough rubbish non welsh players at the regions already. Hore should shut his trap and stick to the terms of the latest loyalty agreement, as soon as a new deal is signed the ospreys are always the first ones to start whining about the terms of it.  Start shipping out some of the garbage in the squad like jarvis and fussel, eli walker as well if he can't stay fit, the boy seems to be made of glass.

So we can't afford good foreign players, we have too many rubbish non-Welsh players and we need to get rid of Welsh players (2 of which are deemed good enough for the Welsh training squad). So who would you replace them with exactly?!

Ahh, don't tell me - someone from another region? Who???

Challenge accepted lads...  

Listing the three players, I'd say Jarvis can easily be replaced by players already at the Ospreys, we bloody lost a very promising Jo Rees and Nicky Thomas  because we were stupid enough to constantly pick Jarvis ahead of them when he can't bloody scrummage, neither got game time and left us.  Are we really going to stunt Dan Suters development for Jarvis as well?  Jarvis is so average it should be obvious he can't cut it at regional level.  It's so bloody frustrating seeing the Ospreys scrum go down,  with the referee giving penalties to the other team all the time, it's costing us dearly season after season.  

Fussell we simply don't need anymore, I'd of rather kept Ross Jones personally instead of releasing him.  I thought Ross Jones was decent enough when he had chances, certainly he never made the comical errors Fussell always seemed to make.  We also signed Dan Evans as first choice full back, while Sam Davies also seems to get game time there at the moment.  To be fair I might be too hard on Fussell as he was a winger who was shot gunned into the full back position for years, he tried his best and the move didn't really work out, but I'd be amazed if we really had no one with any potential at the academy who couldn't step up to play full back or wing for us.   Personally I think Fussell would be better in rugby league with hard grounds in summer, he seems to have balance issues in wet weather, far more than normal players, exciting with ball in hand, but simply wrong time of year and wrong sport.

Eli Walker is fragile and always injured, he's rugby's equivalent of "sick note" Darren Anderton, it's really sad because he's talented, but Goggle Eli Walker the word "injury" and it's amazing what comes up... ankle ligaments, hamstrings, It's basically going to be like towards the end of Ryan Jones career at the Ospreys when he was broken all the time and they decided to cut their losses.  He's lucky because there are still long term doubts over Hanno Dirksen and his injuries.  While Kristian Phillips has been to the Scarlets, and back again, while not really building on the early promise of his career.   For the Ospreys better / international players we really need them to be pulling about 20-23 games a season for us (unless their duel contracted), at the moment Eli is pulling about 15 a season while not being a first choice international.  He's played 10 games so far this season, and assuming we don't make the knock out stages of the Heinaken Cup he could potentially play in another 13 which if achieved would be half decent from him, but I honestly doubt it before he conks out again.  We lost Tommy Bowe and Shane Williams in the same season and we had a few young lads ready to take over and none of them can play more than three games without getting injured.  Dirksen is full blooded and always smashing his body into everyone, you can forgive him getting injured in those circumstances but Eli needs three weeks off after breaking a toe nail.  

Even with regards to our foreign players, were not really using Hassler this season, while Daffydd Howells isn't really getting the game time he needs, he's 20 now and isn't having the chance to build and improve.  Brendon Leonard was a good signing bearing in mind Rhys Webb had a long term injury, he's still only 30 as well so he's hardly over the hill.  
I'm not sure what the thinking is behind Ma'afu Fia personally, we signed someone with a long term knee ligament injury on a three year deal, though with we already have a foreign player with Dmitri Arhip in the squad, so why sign another one as well as try to develop Suter is anyone's guess.  

We also seem to be trying to waste the potential of Gareth Thomas our young loose head, he had plenty of game time last season yet isn't being given any chance this year, 6'2" 19 stone props don't grow on trees and it's a shame he couldn't be loaned out to one of the other regions to help him improve as he has Paul James, Ryan Bevington and Nicky Smith in front of him at the Ospreys.  

Again we kicked out Morgan Allen who's been doing great things at the Scarlets, is a powerful and solid player who always did well in an Ospreys shirt, and brought in an Englishman, Sam Undehill and a Fijian, Ifereimi Boladau.  We already have a Canadian in Tyler Ardron in the back row, so we kick out a decent Welsh lad for too unheard of foreign players, the English one no one in the English Premiership seemed to want to sign, while no one has ever heard of the Fijian.  We already have Dan Baker unhappy as he can't break into the team because Justin Tipuric, Lydiate, and King are hogging the starting spots, while Gareth Delve is also in the squad.  

Then during all this you hear Hore is whinging that we don't have enough foreign ones!  
Leonard? fair enough a 30 year old, 17 times capped All Black as Rhys Webb has a long term injury, fair enough.  Though again why not give Habberfield a chance?

Dmitri Arhip?  Well ok, we all love this guy, he's a character like Adam Jones was...

But the rest are no better than what is already at the regions their taking up spaces and places for Welsh lads.

I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

Try stopping reading at Shifty. Works for me.

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

We'll he's only just turned 22 to be fair he's going to need time to learn, I seen him play a few times and all in all I think he'll be ok, he certainly won't be worse than Jarvis! Jarvis is supposed to be at the peak of his powers now and for the next season or so, and is bloody rubbish while Suter is a kid just starting out. Suter has time to learn and improve Jarvis never will I'm afraid. But again Jo Rees was a decent scrumager, I saw him bend Salvatore Perugini like a contortionist in the scrums a few seasons ago, it got to the point the Ospreys fans were taking the píss so much, he came over and told us very firmly to shut up! It's a shame they didn't use him more and instead he left for Worcester!

Shifty wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

We'll he's only just turned 22 to be fair he's going to need time to learn, I seen him play a few times and all in all I think he'll be ok, he certainly won't be worse than Jarvis! Jarvis is supposed to be at the peak of his powers now and for the next season or so, and is bloody rubbish while Suter is a kid just starting out.  Suter has time to learn and improve Jarvis never will I'm afraid.  But again Jo Rees was a decent scrumager, I saw him bend Salvatore Perugini like a contortionist in the scrums a few seasons ago, it got to the point the Ospreys fans were taking the píss so much, he came over and told us very firmly to shut up!  It's a shame they didn't use him more and instead he left for Worcester!

Well to be fair I decided to go back and my word and read the rest. You made a few good points, but I don't see how anyone can rate Dan Suter. The majority of guys from his age group were never good enough. Ospreys seem to have brought a lot of guys in from outside and from within the academy for the sake of it, a lot of them probably won't go anywhere. Underhill was especially a strange signing for me too.

Stone Motif wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

Try stopping reading at Shifty. Works for me.

To be honest most of your posts are nearly always this icon:
Though occasionally you might stretch to four of five words...

Shifty wrote:

Griff wrote:

Shifty wrote:Welsh regions can't afford the better foreign players anymore and we have enough rubbish non welsh players at the regions already. Hore should shut his trap and stick to the terms of the latest loyalty agreement, as soon as a new deal is signed the ospreys are always the first ones to start whining about the terms of it.  Start shipping out some of the garbage in the squad like jarvis and fussel, eli walker as well if he can't stay fit, the boy seems to be made of glass.

So we can't afford good foreign players, we have too many rubbish non-Welsh players and we need to get rid of Welsh players (2 of which are deemed good enough for the Welsh training squad). So who would you replace them with exactly?!

Ahh, don't tell me - someone from another region? Who???

Challenge accepted lads...  

Listing the three players, I'd say Jarvis can easily be replaced by players already at the Ospreys, we bloody lost a very promising Jo Rees and Nicky Thomas  because we were stupid enough to constantly pick Jarvis ahead of them when he can't bloody scrummage, neither got game time and left us.  Are we really going to stunt Dan Suters development for Jarvis as well?  Jarvis is so average it should be obvious he can't cut it at regional level.  It's so bloody frustrating seeing the Ospreys scrum go down,  with the referee giving penalties to the other team all the time, it's costing us dearly season after season.  

Fussell we simply don't need anymore, I'd of rather kept Ross Jones personally instead of releasing him.  I thought Ross Jones was decent enough when he had chances, certainly he never made the comical errors Fussell always seemed to make.  We also signed Dan Evans as first choice full back, while Sam Davies also seems to get game time there at the moment.  To be fair I might be too hard on Fussell as he was a winger who was shot gunned into the full back position for years, he tried his best and the move didn't really work out, but I'd be amazed if we really had no one with any potential at the academy who couldn't step up to play full back or wing for us.    Personally I think Fussell would be better in rugby league with hard grounds in summer, he seems to have balance issues in wet weather, far more than normal players, exciting with ball in hand, but simply wrong time of year and wrong sport.  

Eli Walker is fragile and always injured, he's rugby's equivalent of "sick note" Darren Anderton, it's really sad because he's talented, but Goggle Eli Walker the word "injury" and it's amazing what comes up... ankle ligaments, hamstrings, It's basically going to be like towards the end of Ryan Jones career at the Ospreys when he was broken all the time and they decided to cut their losses.  He's lucky because there are still long term doubts over Hanno Dirksen and his injuries.  While Kristian Phillips has been to the Scarlets, and back again, while not really building on the early promise of his career.   For the Ospreys better / international players we really need them to be pulling about 20-23 games a season for us (unless their duel contracted), at the moment Eli is pulling about 15 a season while not being a first choice international.  He's played 10 games so far this season, and assuming we don't make the knock out stages of the Heinaken Cup he could potentially play in another 13 which if achieved would be half decent from him, but I honestly doubt it before he conks out again.  We lost Tommy Bowe and Shane Williams in the same season and we had a few young lads ready to take over and none of them can play more than three games without getting injured.  Dirksen is full blooded and always smashing his body into everyone, you can forgive him getting injured in those circumstances but Eli needs three weeks off after breaking a toe nail.  

Even with regards to our foreign players, were not really using Hassler this season, while Daffydd Howells isn't really getting the game time he needs, he's 20 now and isn't having the chance to build and improve.  Brendon Leonard was a good signing bearing in mind Rhys Webb had a long term injury, he's still only 30 as well so he's hardly over the hill.  
I'm not sure what the thinking is behind Ma'afu Fia personally, we signed someone with a long term knee ligament injury on a three year deal, though with we already have a foreign player with Dmitri Arhip in the squad, so why sign another one as well as try to develop Suter is anyone's guess.  

We also seem to be trying to waste the potential of Gareth Thomas our young loose head, he had plenty of game time last season yet isn't being given any chance this year, 6'2" 19 stone props don't grow on trees and it's a shame he couldn't be loaned out to one of the other regions to help him improve as he has Paul James, Ryan Bevington and Nicky Smith in front of him at the Ospreys.  

Again we kicked out Morgan Allen who's been doing great things at the Scarlets, is a powerful and solid player who always did well in an Ospreys shirt, and brought in an Englishman, Sam Undehill and a Fijian, Ifereimi Boladau.  We already have a Canadian in Tyler Ardron in the back row, so we kick out a decent Welsh lad for too unheard of foreign players, the English one no one in the English Premiership seemed to want to sign, while no one has ever heard of the Fijian.  We already have Dan Baker unhappy as he can't break into the team because Justin Tipuric, Lydiate, and King are hogging the starting spots, while Gareth Delve is also in the squad.  

Then during all this you hear Hore is whinging that we don't have enough foreign ones!  
Leonard? fair enough a 30 year old, 17 times capped All Black as Rhys Webb has a long term injury, fair enough.  Though again why not give Habberfield a chance?

Dmitri Arhip?  Well ok, we all love this guy, he's a character like Adam Jones was...

But the rest are no better than what is already at the regions their taking up spaces and places for Welsh lads.

So what you're saying is to get rid of the players who, in your opinion, are no good and replace them with players further down the pecking order. Your coaches have much more expertise, insight, knowledge and experience than you (no offence!) so if they keep picking a player then there must be good reason. But getting rid of some of these first choice players and putting in players who have struggled to nail down a place at their own regions, and sometimes at other regions, is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

Mikey I'm on his foe list, and he obviously can't see my replies, but that lot was hilarious, totally and utterly delusional. Dan Suter started in the game against your lot at the Brewery Field in the LV last year, we were over 30 points behind at half time, we brought on that well known wonder scrummager Cai Griffiths for the 2nd half, he very soon afterwards scored a try and we came storming back into it, we were within a score at one point before you pulled slightly away before the end.
Gareth Thomas even when we were down 3 or 4 loose heads was still behind Marc Thomas, Gareth only came on as Marc's replacement he is nowhere near Regional class.
Nicky Thomas would not train properly and is very poorly conditioned, him Scott Otten and Nicky Smith all came through at the same time at the same club Waunarlwydd, the same club that produced Liam Williams, Scott and Nicky S have both shown their worth. IMO Scott will be 2nd choice behind Baldwin by the end of this season, and it is all according how long Assey stays playing, Nicky should be first choice next season, if Thomas had shown the same commitment he would be in the same position as the other 2. Funnily enough I had seen snippets of Thomas playing with the other 2 for Wales U20s a couple of years ago, the first time I seen him in the flesh was in the LV game against the Saracens at the Gnoll a week before the game I referred to earlier, he came on early in the 2nd half for the player I've already mentioned Suter, he was penalised at the first scrum and was always the last to appear to practically every ruck, it was embarassing he was even totally dropped from the squad for the following weeks match for Griffiths, I really hope he buckles down and makes a name for himself up at Gloucester, but I won't hold my breath. I could go on and totally destroy this idiots rant, but why would I waste a good 15 minutes on somebody like him.

Griff wrote:So what you're saying is to get rid of the players who, in your opinion, are no good and replace them with players further down the pecking order. Your coaches have much more expertise, insight, knowledge and experience than you (no offence!) so if they keep picking a player then there must be good reason. But getting rid of some of these first choice players and putting in players who have struggled to nail down a place at their own regions, and sometimes at other regions, is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I would say that players who are always injured, or who are pushing 30 and looking like they are struggling at regional level need to be moved out of the regions, and those spaces given to younger players graduating from the academy given more of a chance.  I also think that the regions don't have the funds to compete for the better non Welsh international players and nearly all the players that are signed are't better than those already at the regions.  
I'll accept that Tandy has more "insight, and knowledge" but any idiot could of told you several years ago that Joe Rees was a vastly superior prop to Jarvis, and should of been retained at his expense, especially since the entire Ospreys game and success has been build on a solid scrum!

How long did it take Tandy to realise that the Fussell full back experiment simply wasn't working? 2-3 years?  Ross Jones came in several times and put in a decent shift, considering he was constantly being shunted about between the Premiership teams, Premiership select teams for the British and Irish Cup, then expected to walk into the Ospreys team and perform.  Then without explanation he'd be dropped for Fussell who would do his latest un-amusing comedy act of falling over, dropping the ball or missing a tackle, if he even bothered to attempt it in the first place.  

Then at the same time we have our CEO, breaking ranks, and causing mischief in the Welsh game, moaning about not being able to buy foreign born players when we had rubbish like Aisea Natoga, Tito Tebaldi, De Kock Steenkamp, Chauncey O'Toole, and George Stowers, as well as the ones we signed this year who are simply not as good as the local boys who are already at the region. Now and again you get lucky with a Rynard Landman or a Kahn Fotuali'i but it's rare and they rarely stay for long!

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

Mikey I'm on his foe list, and he obviously can't see my replies, but that lot was hilarious, totally and utterly delusional. Dan Suter started in the game against your lot at the Brewery Field in the LV last year, we were over 30 points behind at half time, we brought on that well known wonder scrummager Cai Griffiths for the 2nd half, he very soon afterwards scored a try and we came storming back into it, we were within a score at one point before you pulled slightly away before the end.
Gareth Thomas even when we were down 3 or 4 loose heads was still behind Marc Thomas, Gareth only came on as Marc's replacement he is nowhere near Regional class.
Nicky Thomas would not train properly and is very poorly conditioned, him Scott Otten and Nicky Smith all came through at the same time at the same club Waunarlwydd, the same club that produced Liam Williams, Scott and Nicky S have both shown their worth. IMO Scott will be 2nd choice behind Baldwin by the end of this season, and it is all according how long Assey stays playing, Nicky should be first choice next season, if Thomas had shown the same commitment he would be in the same position as the other 2. Funnily enough I had seen snippets of Thomas playing with the other 2 for Wales U20s a couple of years ago, the first time I seen him in the flesh was in the LV game against the Saracens at the Gnoll a week before the game I referred to earlier, he came on early in the 2nd half for the player I've already mentioned Suter, he was penalised at the first scrum and was always the last to appear to practically every ruck, it was embarassing he was even totally dropped from the squad for the following weeks match for Griffiths, I really hope he buckles down and makes a name for himself up at Gloucester, but I won't hold my breath. I could go on and totally destroy this idiots rant, but why would I waste a good 15 minutes on somebody like him.

Yes you are Wayne, but it's the holiday season and I'm in a good mood, so I will take the time to read what you wrote, though normally it's just an excuse to try and annoy me...
Ok 1, with regards to Nicky Thomas your reciting the same tired old crap that always comes on the Ospreys forum when someone a young talented lad leaves the Ospreys, ohh... Matthew Morgan downed tools and quit because he didn't want to play full back, nothing to do with not being picked.  Joe Rees wouldn't train properly, it's never that they wouldn't pick him of course, same for Nicky.  Hell they even let that slip out when Ian Evans got fed up with Tandys attitude, but of course really it's because Ianto wouldn't train properly.  have you NEVER wondered why is it when a player leaves they want to keep, but never seem to want to play it always slips out on the Ospreys forum that the player wasn't training properly and didn't care anymore?  Did it ever occur to anyone that Adam Jones had weight and fitness issues his whole career?  Are you saying that's not normal for a prop?  Cmon now the guy by his own admission lives off chocolate and chips! Bloody worked as well to be fair to the lad!  

Finally Wayne your missing the entire point of the LV Cup, the whole point of it is to give kids a chance and LEARN, I know Suter had a bad game at the Brewery field I was there, when everyone else was slagging him off and demanding he be released I said let him LEARN, give him time.  I remember the same crap being said about Dan Biggar, read back to the start of this forum, when all the Ospreys fans were booing him and calling him rubbish, I always thought he had a chance.  You can't judge a player at 21-22 years of age, certainly not a prop!  Which is the age Thomas and Suter are!  But if a player is pushing 30 and struggling at regional level then maybe that player needs to be in the English Championship or Welsh premiership!  

If you want to argue the merits of Stowers and Chauncey O'Toole etc, I'm all ears for that one...

This really is hilarious, Ross Jones had plenty of opportunities 21 appearances over a 3 or 4 season range including about 15 in one season, and he was so good that he joined Rotherham Titans and where was he for their last match, on the bench in the English Premiership, at least if he had stayed at Bridgend where he played most of his Rugby he would have had a few more appearances for us and trained with far superior players.
Fussell was brought in because of our financial constraints and was a decent steady Eddie, I cannot remember him costing us a single match, yes he made errors but what player hasn't.

wayne wrote:This really is hilarious, Ross Jones had plenty of opportunities 21 appearances over a 3 or 4 season range including about 15 in one season, and he was so good that he joined Rotherham Titans and where was he for their last match, on the bench in the English Premiership, at least if he had stayed at Bridgend where he played most of his Rugby he would have had a few more appearances for us and trained with far superior players.
Fussell was brought in because of our financial constraints and was a decent steady Eddie, I cannot remember him costing us a single match, yes he made errors but what player hasn't.

The sad truth is the English Championship is a professional league, and the Welsh Premiership isn't and you get paid more in England, certainly comparable to Regional wages for squad players.  I agree I'd of loved to seen him playing for the Ravens but if he can get a full time paid job with Rotherham or a semi pro deal at Bridgend, by all means go to Rotherham.  Go on Wikipedia and have a nose at the championship squads most have a few Welsh players in, most have 3 or 4!  
Secondly have you ever wondered why the English Championship teams have been handing most of the Welsh Premiership teams their back sides in the British and Irish cup over the last few seasons?  Players that aren't being given chances at regional level often move to the English championship and earn MORE money than they did at regional level!  Kyle Evans left the Scarlets and signed for Moseley and is apparently on more money now, it's not an unusual scenario!  You can't blame them to be honest.  

I honestly can't believe you think training with Bridgend is superior than training professionally with Rotherham!  I'd rather be seventh in the English championship and working as a paid professional, then 11th in the semi pro Welsh premiership!  

Josh Matevesi is one of your best centres in years, in my opinion! Certainly no Ma'a Nonu, but certainly better than a number of lads you've been playing there in seasons past. I agree the others weren't too good though.

On Joe Rees - go and check out his appearances for Worcester. Last season he only started 6 games and was sub for 14, and that was in the English second division. Step up a division to the premier league and he's only started 2 games this season, suggesting his coaches don't think he's up to much at pro rugby level either.

Griff wrote:Josh Matevesi is one of your best centres in years, in my opinion! Certainly no Ma'a Nonu, but certainly better than a number of lads you've been playing there in seasons past. I agree the others weren't too good though.

On Joe Rees - go and check out his appearances for Worcester. Last season he only started 6 games and was sub for 14, and that was in the English second division. Step up a division to the premier league and he's only started 2 games this season, suggesting his coaches don't think he's up to much at pro rugby level either.

Bollucks someone spotted that typo before I managed to change it, sorry that was a mistake I meant Aisea Natoga, I always get the Islander names wrong, my bad.
We have so many Fijians coming and going that I'm getting their names wrong. We had Natoga and Cavubati leave, and Boladau and Matavesi join...

Joe Rees was going fine at the Ospreys mate, no idea what happened there.

Shifty wrote:

Griff wrote:So what you're saying is to get rid of the players who, in your opinion, are no good and replace them with players further down the pecking order. Your coaches have much more expertise, insight, knowledge and experience than you (no offence!) so if they keep picking a player then there must be good reason. But getting rid of some of these first choice players and putting in players who have struggled to nail down a place at their own regions, and sometimes at other regions, is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I would say that players who are always injured, or who are pushing 30 and looking like they are struggling at regional level need to be moved out of the regions, and those spaces given to younger players graduating from the academy given more of a chance.  I also think that the regions don't have the funds to compete for the better non Welsh international players and nearly all the players that are signed are't better than those already at the regions.  
I'll accept that Tandy has more "insight, and knowledge" but any idiot could of told you several years ago that Joe Rees was a vastly superior prop to Jarvis, and should of been retained at his expense, especially since the entire Ospreys game and success has been build on a solid scrum!

How long did it take Tandy to realise that the Fussell full back experiment simply wasn't working? 2-3 years?  Ross Jones came in several times and put in a decent shift, considering he was constantly being shunted about between the Premiership teams, Premiership select teams for the British and Irish Cup, then expected to walk into the Ospreys team and perform.  Then without explanation he'd be dropped for Fussell who would do his latest un-amusing comedy act of falling over, dropping the ball or missing a tackle, if he even bothered to attempt it in the first place.  

Then at the same time we have our CEO, breaking ranks, and causing mischief in the Welsh game, moaning about not being able to buy foreign born players when we had rubbish like Josh Matavesi, Tito Tebaldi, De Kock Steenkamp, Chauncey O'Toole, and George Stowers, as well as the ones we signed this year who are simply not as good as the local boys who are already at the region. Now and again you get lucky with a Rynard Landman or a Kahn Fotuali'i but it's rare and they rarely stay for long!

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I stopped reading at Dan Suter...

Mikey I'm on his foe list, and he obviously can't see my replies, but that lot was hilarious, totally and utterly delusional. Dan Suter started in the game against your lot at the Brewery Field in the LV last year, we were over 30 points behind at half time, we brought on that well known wonder scrummager Cai Griffiths for the 2nd half, he very soon afterwards scored a try and we came storming back into it, we were within a score at one point before you pulled slightly away before the end.
Gareth Thomas even when we were down 3 or 4 loose heads was still behind Marc Thomas, Gareth only came on as Marc's replacement he is nowhere near Regional class.
Nicky Thomas would not train properly and is very poorly conditioned, him Scott Otten and Nicky Smith all came through at the same time at the same club Waunarlwydd, the same club that produced Liam Williams, Scott and Nicky S have both shown their worth. IMO Scott will be 2nd choice behind Baldwin by the end of this season, and it is all according how long Assey stays playing, Nicky should be first choice next season, if Thomas had shown the same commitment he would be in the same position as the other 2. Funnily enough I had seen snippets of Thomas playing with the other 2 for Wales U20s a couple of years ago, the first time I seen him in the flesh was in the LV game against the Saracens at the Gnoll a week before the game I referred to earlier, he came on early in the 2nd half for the player I've already mentioned Suter, he was penalised at the first scrum and was always the last to appear to practically every ruck, it was embarassing he was even totally dropped from the squad for the following weeks match for Griffiths, I really hope he buckles down and makes a name for himself up at Gloucester, but I won't hold my breath. I could go on and totally destroy this idiots rant, but why would I waste a good 15 minutes on somebody like him.

Yes you are Wayne, but it's the holiday season and I'm in a good mood, so I will take the time to read what you wrote, though normally it's just an excuse to try and annoy me...
Ok 1, with regards to Nicky Thomas your reciting the same tired old crap that always comes on the Ospreys forum when someone a young talented lad leaves the Ospreys, ohh... Matthew Morgan downed tools and quit because he didn't want to play full back, nothing to do with not being picked.  Joe Rees wouldn't train properly, it's never that they wouldn't pick him of course, same for Nicky.  Hell they even let that slip out when Ian Evans got fed up with Tandys attitude, but of course really it's because Ianto wouldn't train properly.  have you NEVER wondered why is it when a player leaves they want to keep, but never seem to want to play it always slips out on the Ospreys forum that the player wasn't training properly and didn't care anymore?  Did it ever occur to anyone that Adam Jones had weight and fitness issues his whole career?  Are you saying that's not normal for a prop?  Cmon now the guy by his own admission lives off chocolate and chips! Bloody worked as well to be fair to the lad!  

Finally Wayne your missing the entire point of the LV Cup, the whole point of it is to give kids a chance and LEARN, I know Suter had a bad game at the Brewery field I was there, when everyone else was slagging him off and demanding he be released I said let him LEARN, give him time.  I remember the same crap being said about Dan Biggar, read back to the start of this forum, when all the Ospreys fans were booing him and calling him rubbish, I always thought he had a chance.  You can't judge a player at 21-22 years of age, certainly not a prop!  Which is the age Thomas and Suter are!  But if a player is pushing 30 and struggling at regional level then maybe that player needs to be in the English Championship or Welsh premiership!  

If you want to argue the merits of Stowers and Chauncey O'Toole etc, I'm all ears for that one...

I was also there on both the nights I quoted, and was I right in what I put in the points above? both Thomas at the Gnoll and Suter at the Brewery field were totally out of their class, Alyn I'm a 5'8" former hooker and stood right by the side of Suter at the Brewery Field the previous season in another LV game, in the Squad pages of the Ospreys Suter is down at 5'11" if he is 5'9" that is about it, he is way too small for Regional Rugby and will never make it. If you'd been able to see my posts on here you would have seen I've run down Jarvis on many an occasion, but to think Suter would do any better is delusional.
You also know what you just said about Biggar is just not true, there were a number apparently in the crowd that would run him down, and would cheer when MM was brought on, but the VAST majority always knew who was the better player, now who is it that is playing in the English Premiership and for the important end of seasons matches last season he was again on the bench.
All the Regions have made gaffs in fetching in NWQ, but to put Matavesi in that list is pathetic he has been a very astute signing, finally as a Osprey ST holder or at least you were, you would know the number of games Ianto missed predominently through suspension and injury. AWJ and him came into our team at around the same time when he left AWJ had played about 30 times more than him and starting matches it was even a bigger gap and yet another one playing in the English Premiership, I've mentioned this on here before when he was suspended the last time, he was in the shop signing autographs and I spoke to him and asked him couldn't he feel the player who he stamped on, didn't he know the difference between a player and the ground, I said but you stamped on him 3 times, he said he shouldn't have been where he was doing what he was doing, which for your information was pulling a maul down, he's in the right place as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't want anyone like him in my team

wayne wrote:I was also there on both the nights I quoted, and was I right in what I put in the points above? both Thomas at the Gnoll and Suter at the Brewery field were totally out of their class, Alyn I'm a 5'8" former hooker and stood right by the side of Suter at the Brewery Field the previous season in another LV game, in the Squad pages of the Ospreys Suter is down at 5'11" if he is 5'9" that is about it, he is way too small for Regional Rugby and will never make it. If you'd been able to see my posts on here you would have seen I've run down Jarvis on many an occasion, but to think Suter would do any better is delusional.
You also know what you just said about Biggar is just not true, there were a number apparently in the crowd that would run him down, and would cheer when MM was brought on, but the VAST majority always knew who was the better player, now who is it that is playing in the English Premiership and for the important end of seasons matches last season he was again on the bench.
All the Regions have made gaffs in fetching in NWQ, but to put Matavesi in that list is pathetic he has been a very astute signing, finally as a Osprey ST holder or at least you were, you would know the number of games Ianto missed predominently through suspension and injury. AWJ and him came into our team at around the same time when he left AWJ had played about 30 times more than him and starting matches it was even a bigger gap and yet another one playing in the English Premiership, I've mentioned this on here before when he was suspended the last time, he was in the shop signing autographs and I spoke to him and asked him couldn't he feel the player who he stamped on, didn't he know the difference between a player and the ground, I said but you stamped on him 3 times, he said he shouldn't have been where he was doing what he was doing, which for your information was pulling a maul down, he's in the right place as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't want anyone like him in my team

I'm not disagreeing by saying they had bad games, but your talking about 19-20 year old BOYS at the time, I just can't see why anyone would write off someone that young just out of youth rugby?  It's too soon in my opinion, Robert Howley didn't get capped until he was 26, if you wrote him off at 19-20 then he'd of never had the career he did.  
I really don't think you can judge a prop by inches either, did you watch the Wales U20 beat New Zealand a few years ago, Wales had this short stumpy red head called Sampson Lee, against him was this 6'6", 20+ stone apparently future All Black called Ofa Tu'ungafasi!   Well stumpy old Sampson gave a him a bloody lesson and got all Wales points from penalties in the scrums!  The poor New Zealand boy couldn't even engage him straight because he was too tall.  Sampson Lee is only 5'11", I really don't think it matters that much mate.
Back in our day props were not supposed to be tall, I'm sure you remember that large 6'5" prop for Scotland in the 90's who spent so much time in the air it became a joke... Alan Watt maybe?  

I'd pick Ian Evans in my team just to make sure he wasn't in the opposition team.  I'm sure you remember that LV game a few years ago when it was Ian Evans Vs the entire Northampton team, in Bridgend, if he wasn't on the field god help those kids that the Ospreys played. I've never seen a game where it was 1 man against 15 to that extent.

to put Matavesi in that list is pathetic - my bad I meant Aisea Natoga...  the one that didn't like Welsh winters, and wouldn't do any tackling.

Shifty wrote:

wayne wrote:I was also there on both the nights I quoted, and was I right in what I put in the points above? both Thomas at the Gnoll and Suter at the Brewery field were totally out of their class, Alyn I'm a 5'8" former hooker and stood right by the side of Suter at the Brewery Field the previous season in another LV game, in the Squad pages of the Ospreys Suter is down at 5'11" if he is 5'9" that is about it, he is way too small for Regional Rugby and will never make it. If you'd been able to see my posts on here you would have seen I've run down Jarvis on many an occasion, but to think Suter would do any better is delusional.
You also know what you just said about Biggar is just not true, there were a number apparently in the crowd that would run him down, and would cheer when MM was brought on, but the VAST majority always knew who was the better player, now who is it that is playing in the English Premiership and for the important end of seasons matches last season he was again on the bench.
All the Regions have made gaffs in fetching in NWQ, but to put Matavesi in that list is pathetic he has been a very astute signing, finally as a Osprey ST holder or at least you were, you would know the number of games Ianto missed predominently through suspension and injury. AWJ and him came into our team at around the same time when he left AWJ had played about 30 times more than him and starting matches it was even a bigger gap and yet another one playing in the English Premiership, I've mentioned this on here before when he was suspended the last time, he was in the shop signing autographs and I spoke to him and asked him couldn't he feel the player who he stamped on, didn't he know the difference between a player and the ground, I said but you stamped on him 3 times, he said he shouldn't have been where he was doing what he was doing, which for your information was pulling a maul down, he's in the right place as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't want anyone like him in my team

I'm not disagreeing by saying they had bad games, but your talking about 19-20 year old BOYS at the time, I just can't see why anyone would write off someone that young just out of youth rugby?  It's too soon in my opinion, Robert Howley didn't get capped until he was 26, if you wrote him off at 19-20 then he'd of never had the career he did.  
I really don't think you can judge a prop by inches either, did you watch the Wales U20 beat New Zealand a few years ago, Wales had this short stumpy red head called Sampson Lee, against him was this 6'6", 20+ stone apparently future All Black called Ofa Tu'ungafasi!   Well stumpy old Sampson gave a him a bloody lesson and got all Wales points from penalties in the scrums!  The poor New Zealand boy couldn't even engage him straight because he was too tall.  Sampson Lee is only 5'11", I really don't think it matters that much mate.
Back in our day props were not supposed to be tall, I'm sure you remember that large 6'5" prop for Scotland in the 90's who spent so much time in the air it became a joke.

I'd pick Ian Evans in my team just to make sure he wasn't in the opposition team.  I'm sure you remember that LV game a few years ago when it was Ian Evans Vs the entire Northampton team, in Bridgend, if he wasn't on the field got help those kids that the Ospreys played.  

I'm sorry we have to agree to disagree on Ianto, for us he was on more than one occasion just a thug, how come he wasn't like that with with Wales?
Yes you can be too big to be a prop, England were always on about Sheridan, at 6'4" (think) and Adam at 6'0" handled him just fine, but then have a look at the player Adam reckoned was the best he ever came up against Tony Woodcock was the same size as himself, funnily enough if you google our new prop signing Ma'afu Fia, you can see him up against Woodcock and read newspaper reports of him handling Woodcock quite easily, he is another that needs some conditioning work, although I have a feeling he might well be used this Friday if Dmitri is sidelined.
I would be extremely worried if our 2 tight heads are Jarvis and Suter.
You might be too young to remember him but we had a Brecon boy named Pugh (can't remember Christian name) who played for Wales, must be 15-20 years ago he was another one in the Suter mould and he was absolutely mashed, I'm sorry as the laws are today he is much too small.
Let me finish by saying we at the early part of last season were down to our 5th and 6th choice loose heads Marc and Gareth Thomas, I wouldn't mind if Jarvis and Suter was in that sort of pecking order for us on the tight head side, but regularly playing with young hookers and loose heads in the A team and Welsh Premiership, neither are good enough for playing the better props in the Guinness League, but some teams Jarvis would be able to handle, and to say he is useless about the field does him a great disservice IMO.

wayne wrote:I'm sorry we have to agree to disagree on Ianto, for us he was on more than one occasion just a thug, how come he wasn't like that with with Wales?
Yes you can be too big to be a prop, England were always on about Sheridan, at 6'4" (think) and Adam at 6'0" handled him just fine, but then have a look at the player Adam reckoned was the best he ever came up against Tony Woodcock was the same size as himself, funnily enough if you google our new prop signing Ma'afu Fia, you can see him up against Woodcock and read newspaper reports of him handling Woodcock quite easily, he is another that needs some conditioning work, although I have a feeling he might well be used this Friday if Dmitri is sidelined.
I would be extremely worried if our 2 tight heads are Jarvis and Suter.
You might be too young to remember him but we had a Brecon boy named Pugh (can't remember Christian name) who played for Wales, must be 15-20 years ago he was another one in the Suter mould and he was absolutely mashed, I'm sorry as the laws are today he is much too small.
Let me finish by saying we at the early part of last season were down to our 5th and 6th choice loose heads Marc and Gareth Thomas, I wouldn't mind if Jarvis and Suter was in that sort of pecking order for us on the tight head side, but regularly playing with young hookers and loose heads in the A team and Welsh Premiership, neither are good enough for playing the better props in the Guinness League, but some teams Jarvis would be able to handle, and to say he is useless about the field does him a great disservice IMO.

So was Martin Johnson at times, yet I can't remember either being sent off while playing international rugby, and most people say Stuart Hogg is a nice guy and got sent off for shoulder charging Dan Biggar in the face. Ianto is a bit tasty but you need guys like that. Time will tell either way for Suter, I'd just rather him have a chance either way. If he's not good enough in 2-3 years time or someone better comes along, then fine.

Umm... Jeremy Pugh from Bulith Wells maybe? Though that was the late 80's or early 90's. Richie Pugh popped into my head but he was a flanker.

Shifty wrote:

wayne wrote:I'm sorry we have to agree to disagree on Ianto, for us he was on more than one occasion just a thug, how come he wasn't like that with with Wales?
Yes you can be too big to be a prop, England were always on about Sheridan, at 6'4" (think) and Adam at 6'0" handled him just fine, but then have a look at the player Adam reckoned was the best he ever came up against Tony Woodcock was the same size as himself, funnily enough if you google our new prop signing Ma'afu Fia, you can see him up against Woodcock and read newspaper reports of him handling Woodcock quite easily, he is another that needs some conditioning work, although I have a feeling he might well be used this Friday if Dmitri is sidelined.
I would be extremely worried if our 2 tight heads are Jarvis and Suter.
You might be too young to remember him but we had a Brecon boy named Pugh (can't remember Christian name) who played for Wales, must be 15-20 years ago he was another one in the Suter mould and he was absolutely mashed, I'm sorry as the laws are today he is much too small.
Let me finish by saying we at the early part of last season were down to our 5th and 6th choice loose heads Marc and Gareth Thomas, I wouldn't mind if Jarvis and Suter was in that sort of pecking order for us on the tight head side, but regularly playing with young hookers and loose heads in the A team and Welsh Premiership, neither are good enough for playing the better props in the Guinness League, but some teams Jarvis would be able to handle, and to say he is useless about the field does him a great disservice IMO.

So was Martin Johnson at times, yet I can't remember either being sent off while playing international rugby, and most people say Stuart Hogg is a nice guy and got sent off for shoulder charging Dan Biggar in the face.  Ianto is a bit tasty but you need guys like that.  Time will tell either way for Suter, I'd just rather him have a chance either way.  If he's not good enough in 2-3 years time or someone better comes along, then fine.  

Umm... Jeremy Pugh from Bulith Wells maybe?  Though that was the late 80's or early 90's.  Richie Pugh popped into my head but he was a flanker.

That's the one Jeremy Pugh like Suter much too small, I already said Ianto didn't do it with Wales, but he was against the big boys then, when I spoke with him in the shop, my brother in law was with me and he agreed with him, at least until we got outside, he was not willing to stand up for his views which he had displayed before and after the talk.
I can't recall how many games Suter has had for us, very few starting I would say and it must be 10 to 20 off the bench with the majority in the LV or it's equivelant.
Just looked it up, last season the only games he started was as I said 3 LV games and was used as a replacement on around 10 other occasions, these were when either Arhip or Jarvis was injured and Jarvis was away with TW, this season is his fourth with us, he played once in his first season and around 10 to 15 the next 2 seasons and as I said the vast majority as replacements when players have been away or injured, I don't recall him being used in the first team in any capacity this season, as I said earlier good to have as squad filler in an emergency, I don't see the situation changing.