Saffers - England, 1st test, Durban - match thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Jimmy Anderson officially out, Woakes and Finn expected to be named with Jordan, footitt and ballance missing out.

Joe Root missing training today due to an upset stomach, but should be ok for day one

[kingraf]

Batting looking like hard work at the moment...though as I type that Elgar clouts Finn for four

Wonder if we'll have another Broad burst this evening ?

Have to. One wicket away from having us bent over a table

[alfie]

Are they finishing at 5.30 ? No time for more Broad then.

Intriguing prospects for tomorrow : these two battling away and still Duminy to come so SA are far from out of it ; but England are definitely on top at this stage.

[kingraf]

On the domestic circuit.... Quinny de Kock just got out in a rock n roll 100 at near run a ball. Faf is beginning to stare down the barrel of a long gun

[guildfordbat]

Raf - what's the current position with Philander?

[kingraf]

Raf - what's the current position with Philander?

Out for the first two tests, but barring a miracle performance from Abbot, should slot straight back .

[guildfordbat]

Cheers, Raf. Wondered what was up with Vernon - I did say on the other thread that I wasn't up to speed with your side!

Btw, is your main spinner normally as bad as when I've seen him in this game?

[kingraf]

Its only his third Test so I genuinely don't know! I think the pitch isnt as spinner friendly as its been made out though, as Moeen has also seemed to be tossing balloons and not hand grenades.

[guildfordbat]

Cheers again, Raf.

Result could easily still go either way but currently advantage to England. That last wicket partnership of 36 between Broad and Finn just might be what gives us a first innings lead.

[LondonTiger]

Its only his third Test so I genuinely don't know! I think the pitch isnt as spinner friendly as its been made out though, as Moeen has also seemed to be tossing balloons and not hand grenades.

There has been a lot of turn for a two day wicket. While Piedt and Ali have not bowled great, both at times turned it square.

[kingraf]

Its only his third Test so I genuinely don't know! I think the pitch isnt as spinner friendly as its been made out though, as Moeen has also seemed to be tossing balloons and not hand grenades.

There has been a lot of turn for a two day wicket. While Piedt and Ali have not bowled great, both at times turned it square.

Really slow turn. Moeen beat Elgar once the entire day, and as Swann said that was less because it turned square and more because Elgar was playing for none at all.

It might (guesswork really) start showing noteworthy variable bounce but I'm not convinced about it purchasing more on day five.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So again I'd say it's pretty even, with maybe England just shading it. No match defining sessions yet.

How'd Woakes bowl? Looking at his figures seems he kept it tight, and obviously if Bairstow was even a half competent keeper he'd have had Amla

[LondonTiger]

Woakes was generally about as threatening with the ball as Bairstow was with the gloves.

[guildfordbat]

Olly - only saw Woakes' opening spell but he sure was on the money then and definitely deserved a wicket. My concern about his bowling (for Test level), going back about three years when his name started being seriously mentioned, has always been a lack of pace. However, he's definitely upped his speed in the last twelve months and maintained it. [Edit: just seen Tiger's post - can't reconcile his comments with Woakes' opening overs that I watched.]

That doesn't mean I'm a total convert to your way of thinking / worship but I'm more than willing to keep an open mind and wish him well.

Btw, I've family and friends in the Midlands who follow Warks. They reckoned his batting would be his strongest suit but that doesn't seem to have developed as much as hoped.

Agree with you about Bairstow. It would have been tough to drop him after one Test and immediately recall Buttler. However, Test cricket is a tough business and the team would be better with Buttler in it.

[Duty281]

I mark England as just ahead, still. South Africa have a lengthy tail, plus they do have to bat last on a pitch already showing some low bounce.

Broad has bowled superbly; Woakes well with no reward; Finn meh; and Moeen maintains his irritating habit.

The key to the match is now Elgar. If he carries on from a fine, gritty innings today, and makes a big hundred, South Africa might just eke out a precious 50 run lead. But if England nip him out early tomorrow, South Africa could fold pretty quickly.

Play starts half an hour earlier tomorrow, by the way.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Agree with you about Bairstow. It would have been tough to drop him after one Test and immediately recall Buttler. However, Test cricket is a tough business and the team would be better with Buttler in it.

I can't agree with that at all, I don't want Buttler near the test team he just isn't up to it, Bairstow might not press on with his many starts but he at least makes them and those 30/40 runs are more valuable than nothing. Not a lot between their keeping so Jonny stays in.

[JDizzle]

Not sure how the claim Buttler isn't up to it but Bairstow is can be made. Despite his horrific form, Buttler still has a better Test record and in terms of potential with the bat they aren't even close. And I disagree with the keeping too, Buttler is a far better keeper than Jonny, especially to the seamers. Haven't seen much of Bairstow keeping to spin.

As for the game, England are on top for me. One more wicket today and it would have been comfortably so. They'll want to toll SA for 250, and if they can post even 200 in the third innings, a chase of 250 will be very tough.

Woakes - I just wonder what he does that is special? He's about average pace wise for interntional cricket, he swings it but not late enough to cause consistent problems to class players... I just can't see him taking international wickets regularly, certainly in Tests.

On Stuart Broad, since Jan 1 2013 he averages 25.32 with 146 wickets. He's become world class and could still have another 2/3 years in his prime.

[kingraf]

To be honest. I'd pick Buttler. Bairstow has had twenty Tests most of them as a specialist bat and he barely averages over 25. Buttler is the future

[guildfordbat]

Hammer - a game of opinions but mine is that Buttler is the better keeper and improving.

Felt he (Buttler) was called up too soon for Tests; I would have recalled Read for a year when Prior left the international scene and left Buttler to gain more experience at county level. However, that didn't happen and for now it's a straight choice between Buttler and Bairstow (although look out for Foakes in the outside lane). Just too many mistakes with the gloves by Bairstow for me. The chance from Amla today wasn't easy but a Test keeper should have taken it. He was lucky that it didn't prove expensive and have everyone talking about it now.

I can't buy into Bairstow's batting either. He doesn't go on nearly enough. Feel his stats back up my doubts - averaging around 26 from his 20 Tests going into this one. Buttler's average is more and contains the threat of an X Factor knock.

[msp83]

So I'd say England a head though not by a great deal. Duminy is mostly miss and sometime hit, so he's more likely to fail tomorrow. South African lower order is not what it was used to be. So if England get an early wicket tomorrow, they can hope to take at least a 50 run lead if not more.
It was a fine all-round performance from Stuart Broad. His runs were so very valuable in dragging England across the 300 mark, and then he took 2 new ball wickets, and then the biggest of them all just when AB was settling in for a big one. Finn bowled well without reward, and Woakes was unlucky not to get Amla in his first spell. Moeen was well, Moeen. Though Stokes wasn't used well by Cook, Ali bowled a few too many overs for my liking.......
A fine effort from Dean Elgar. He did get quite a few starts in India, did a lot of hardwork and then found ways to undo all that. But he was their only other hope of getting a few runs other than of course AB during the India series. He has a more substantive score here, and hopefully can build on it. AB wasn't at his best at the beginning of the innings but soon gained confidence and was looking good for many when he was cut short by Broad on 49. Faf du Plessis was playing an atrocious innings and got out with an absolutely atrocious shot. Hashim Amla couldn't have picked a worse time to hit a rough patch in his career! And that walking wicket at the top, all the blame have to rest with the hopeless selectors. Styan van Zyl has made it an art form to leave balls targeting the stumps! Did that a couple of times in India too.......

[GSC]

I just don't think Bairstow is international standard, and better players like Taylor have been ignored because the selectors have some weird infatuation with him.

[LondonTiger]

Bsirstow is not good enough to keep wicket for england. Having gone for the catch of Woakes he had to make it. Yes it was hard, but it would have been an easy one for cook - though he drops those 50% of the time. Pretty sure that if the ball that bowled Faf had just missed the bail then Jonny would have missed the stumping.

Buttler and billings are no better with the gloves though, and in my opinion worse - but that is merely opinion.


As to Woakes, for me he looked like what I believe him to be - a good 4th seamer. Sure he put the ball in the right places but at the low end of 80mph with no movement whatsoever. Sure he got the edge when Amla, so worried about Broad, tried to force him through the covers - but frankly Amla is so out of form even Tim Bresnan would have worried him.

That woakes took the new ball scares the pants off me.

[guildfordbat]

Clear from Bob Willis's comments on Sky's The Verdict tonight that he's no fan of Bairstow behind the stumps -
''Matt Prior gave us that great demonstration, didn't he, during the UAE series, about foot movement as a keeper. Jonny Bairstow really hasn't got any. He's just a stopper behind the stumps. He's not a proper wicket keeper in any shape or form. He's there to make runs and hopefully grab a few catches. That's all you can expect from him. He's no natural wicket keeper.''

Willis typically OTT for his Sky paymasters but he is coming from the same place as my earlier comments to Hammersmith.

[alfie]

Everyone in very critical mode this morning it seems

I thought Woakes bowled quite well actually.  Looked dangerous with the new ball , tidy with the older , with little help from the conditions. Still got a lot to prove ; but he has certainly upped his pace and hopefully he will continue to develop.

As for Bairstow he is becoming the new Ian Bell - the man everyone wants to kick
Bit unfair : he batted rather well yesterday - those runs may be quite significant - and if he did drop a catch that he might well have left to Cook at slip I would make two points : the keeper has to go for those - if he starts pausing to consider he is going to miss a lot ; and it really wasn't as easy as many are making out...I suspect if a more "respected" keeper had put it down it would excite less criticism.
In truth I do suspect Bairstow is more likely a stopgap selection as England's gloveman : Buttler , as guildford suggests , wasn't quite ready for Tests ( didn't the oft-maligned Cook say something along those lines a while back ?) but has enough potential that he may well come back to the job at the right time - or someone else may emerge. Even so ; I believe Bairstow was the correct selection for this match/series ; and we'd better hope he can do a competent job for the rest of it rather than be looking for chances to put the boot in...

Moeen went for a few , yes ; but he also took a wicket - and enabled Cook to rotate his seamers ; something England may be grateful for with a second match following hard upon this one...workloads could be a key in this series.  He is no Swan but hardly such an ugly duckling...

I do think England have the upper hand here as the remainder of the SA lineup looks a bit underwhelming , and you couldn't say the pair at the crease are exactly dominating the attack. Could change tomorrow , of course , but England would be fancying a bit of a lead here , and I don't think batting will be as easy over days four and five as it apparently should be now - not that either team have made it look easy at all yet !

[king_carlos]

I really hope Bairstow can pull his batting round at test level. I fear he is heading down the well trod English batsman path of scoring bucket loads in county cricket but not converting it into Test runs. In Jonnys case it feels due to holes in his technique which can be easily exploited by test attacks.

In terms of keeping I feel he and Buttler are in pretty similar places really - not ready for test cricket. I am old fashioned in this regard though as I still maintain that a keeper who takes every chance adds more to a side in terms of raising his bowlers/fielders enthusiasm and confidence than a guy who misses the odd chance but scores the odd few runs.

Prior to the winter I went out on a limb saying I'd have picked Read for these two tours as an excellent gloveman and experienced leader in a young team. Not to mention a first class average 5 runs higher than Buttler.

Bairstow had earnt a place in the side over the summer through weight of runs. Personally I don't think there's a huge amount in it between his and Buttlers keeping so given Jos couldn't buy a run in tests I think it's fair to give Jonny a chance with the gloves.

[JDizzle]

Guess I am the only one who thinks Buttler's keeping is considerably better than Bairstow's then! Although I believe MFC shares this view, and has been banging the drum for a lot longer than me!

As GB mentions, it's all in the footwork. Jonny made the chance today look trickier than it was by a lack of footwork. It was inside first slip so the keeper should be getting to it comfortably. I think Buttler would have snaffled that.

It took Buttler time to adapt to the ODI arena too, and look at how he is going now. He's a special talent and we should back him.

[king_carlos]

Given that Buttler's played a larger quantity of one day cricket he may well have spent more time standing up to the stumps than Bairstow. Especially under the increased pressure and scrutiny of international cricket due to ODIs. It would make sense if his footwork standing up to the stumps was the better of the two.

If there is a difference there I can't honestly say I've seen it though and would rather we picked our keepers based on their wicket keeping. Those days seem long past though.

As for backing Buttler. When he was struggling in ODIs and T20s for England it was right to back him as he had shown his talent repeatedly for Somerset and Lancs in one day cricket.

In order for him to be backed in tests he needs to prove his worth in first class cricket for Lancs. He is a huge talent but frankly his struggles batting in tests shouldn't have been the shock it seemed to many. He coped as well as I'd expect someone with a first class average of 32 to cope in test cricket - badly.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Broad!

[kingraf]

Its up to God now. And by God I mean Dale Steyn

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen just picks up wickets - good stuff so far. Need to clean up here

[kingraf]

Good 100 from Elgar. Quality batting. Doesn't have a fraction of the talent Stiaan van Zyl has, but is more dogged than a bull terrier

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That boundary Steyn scored was the first boundary Moeen has conceded in 17 overs #kingMoeen

[LondonTiger]

Good first hour, with huge turn for the spinners. Sadly since then we seem to be waiting for the new ball.

[LondonTiger]

Steyn's patience runs out, Woakes does well to recover from the fumble.

[guildfordbat]

Olly's main man Woakes adds juggling to his skills set but holds it in the end. We needed that!

A fourfer now for his other man Moeen. I wasn't sure if Olly was serious about tipping him as the leading wicket taker for the series but guess he was and, in any case, never thought it a ridiculous shout. If Moeen can keep something of a lid on things, he'll get plenty of overs and, as we well know, he's got the knack of regularly picking up wickets.

211/8 now and new ball almost due. Be very good to wrap up these last two wickets quickly. A lead of 70 to 80 looks realistic from here and should be very valuable. I thought it would be more like 30 to 40 last night.

[guildfordbat]

Everyone in very critical mode this morning it seems

I thought Woakes bowled quite well actually.  Looked dangerous with the new ball , tidy with the older , with little help from the conditions. Still got a lot to prove ; but he has certainly upped his pace and hopefully he will continue to develop.

As for Bairstow he is becoming the new Ian Bell - the man everyone wants to kick
Bit unfair : he batted rather well yesterday - those runs may be quite significant - and if he did drop a catch that he might well have left to Cook at slip I would make two points : the keeper has to go for those - if he starts pausing to consider he is going to miss a lot ; and it really wasn't as easy as many are making out...I suspect if a more "respected" keeper had put it down it would excite less criticism.
In truth I do suspect Bairstow is more likely a stopgap selection as England's gloveman : Buttler , as guildford suggests , wasn't quite ready for Tests ( didn't the oft-maligned Cook say something along those lines a while back ?) but has enough potential that he may well come back to the job at the right time - or someone else may emerge. Even so ; I believe Bairstow was the correct selection for this match/series ; and we'd better hope he can do a competent job for the rest of it rather than be looking for chances to put the boot in...

Moeen went for a few , yes ; but he also took a wicket - and enabled Cook to rotate his seamers ; something England may be grateful for with a second match following hard upon this one...workloads could be a key in this series.  He is no Swan but hardly such an ugly duckling...

I do think England have the upper hand here as the remainder of the SA lineup looks a bit underwhelming , and you couldn't say the pair at the crease are exactly dominating the attack. Could change tomorrow , of course , but England would be fancying a bit of a lead here , and I don't think batting will be as easy over days four and five as it apparently should be now - not that either team have made it look easy at all yet !

Hi Alfie - on Sky's The Verdict programme last night, Simon Jones referred to Woakes having upped his pace.

He did add though that Woakes needed to add more variety to his bowling and contrasted him with all that Broad brought to the table yesterday. I think we need to be a bit careful about that. You and I have spoken - albeit more in ODI contexts - that bowlers can over complicate things to their detriment by having too many strings to their bow. Having Woakes as the steady, reliable 4th seamer keeping it tight (28 off 14 overs here) and picking up the odd wicket (he should have had 1) along the way is to my mind where he best fits in the Test side - if he's going to - and contrasting nicely with the more likely wicket taking but expensive bowling of Finn, Stokes and Moeen.

Agree that Bairstow should have gone for the chance from Amla. Just feel that a Test keeper should have held it. Yes, others might have got less stick from me for the drop. However, they've earned sufficient credit in my bank. Bairstow hasn't.

[KP_fan]

I expected far more from SA.....they lack leadership is getting confirmed as I suspected at the start of this thread.....to motivate and bring them together when mentally down....as they are after the drubbing in India

[LondonTiger]

Having Woakes as the steady, reliable 4th seamer keeping it tight (28 off 14 overs here) and picking up the odd wicket (he should have had 1) along the way is to my mind where he best fits in the Test side

Though when I say this you slate me.

Woakes was given the new ball and his efforts should be judged as such when looking at his bowling in this innings, certainly yesterday. He was steady and put the ball in the right places but with no movement at all. So yes, good solid 4th seamer. Trouble then though is if Woakes is playing as a 4th seamer, he is competing with Ben Stokes for an all-rounder spot.

I like Woakes as a cricketer - but have seen nothing yet to suggest he is a test quality performer.

[alfie]

Great morning for England... 89 run lead is actually a little less than I expected as I didn't rate the SA late order at all. But credit to Elgar and Steyn for some sensible batting - until Steyn just couldn't resist the lure of Moeen...
Good to see Finn get a couple of wickets at the end ...I thought he bowled all right...as did Woakes , though without reward. Not that it matters much who actually gets the wickets : they bowled as a team and did an excellent job.

Now they just need to bat soundly : SA will come at them hard and we don't want any careless 2nd innings collapses like Melbourne 2013 , or the recent West Indies tour effort.

[LondonTiger]

Elgar deserves huge plaudits. To carry your bat in those circumstances, yet still score runs was phenomenal.

My only gripe was that I felt he was silly to allow Piedt to take the single of ball 80.5. at that stage, with the new ball I thought he was better leaving Piedt to take the last ball of the over then face down finn himself.

[Duty281]

Clinical bowling from England.

Now get that lead over 300, and take a 1-0 lead.

[Duty281]

Huge blow for South Africa as Steyn goes off injured.

Cook and Hales being very watchful, dutifully seeing off the threat of the new ball.

[guildfordbat]

Having Woakes as the steady, reliable 4th seamer keeping it tight (28 off 14 overs here) and picking up the odd wicket (he should have had 1) along the way is to my mind where he best fits in the Test side

Though when I say this you slate me.

Woakes was given the new ball and his efforts should be judged as such when looking at his bowling in this innings, certainly yesterday. He was steady and put the ball in the right places but with no movement at all. So yes, good solid 4th seamer. Trouble then though is if Woakes is playing as a 4th seamer, he is competing with Ben Stokes for an all-rounder spot.

I like Woakes as a cricketer - but have seen nothing yet to suggest he is a test quality performer.

??? Have you started on the sauce early this morning, Tiger? Where and when have I slated you about Woakes?

Mike Selig and I were the ones - probably the only ones - on here 2 or 3 years back expressing doubts about his credentials as a Test bowler. I did say then he needed to up his pace and, him having done that, expressed the view about a year back that he might just be the ying to Stokes' more expensive and wicket taking yang.

I get the impression that some here regard ''4th seamer'' as a derogatory term. I don't particularly see it that way - provided, of course, that's a component we need for a particular Test or series.

[guildfordbat]

Great morning for England... 89 run lead is actually a little less than I expected as I didn't rate the SA late order at all.  But credit to Elgar and Steyn for some sensible batting - until Steyn just couldn't resist the lure of Moeen...
Good to see Finn get a couple of wickets at the end ...I thought he bowled all right...as did Woakes , though without reward. Not that it matters much who actually gets the wickets : they bowled as a team and did an excellent job.

Now they just need to bat soundly : SA will come at them hard and we don't want any careless 2nd innings collapses like Melbourne 2013 , or the recent West Indies tour effort.

Hi Alfie - in the UK Sky studio, Rob Key (I like him) praised Moeen for playing a part in Finn's wickets. He made the good point that Moeen, having kept it tight as well as taking wickets for a sizeable part of the opening session, enabled Cook to bring back a fresh Finn to blow away the last two.

[alfie]

Hi guildford

I'd agree with most of your points : but think Jones is correct in suggesting Woakes probably needs to add a few tricks to his package if he is to be seen as Anderson's eventual successor. If he is just a "keep it tight" fourth seamer then he will struggle to get a regular position.
I'm not rushing to judgement yet though. Still in his 5th Test Match.

As for Bairstow I do agree he should have caught it ; but I'm not absolutely certain Buttler would have either... If England were looking just for the best keeper , neither would be in the frame : but we all know that isn't how they pick them these days.
I do think Buttler has a good chance to make it back to the Test side ; but he appeared to have lost all batting form - and confidence - in UAE ; so I think it is a stretch to suggest he ought to be reinstalled at the moment. Right now I'd prefer to see him win games for England in limited overs , and hopefully get some red ball practice for his county in between. Whether Bairstow can hold the fort in the meantime we will see...

[alfie]

Plenty happening early in the England 2nd knock...

No joy for Cook : bit surprised to see him lbw to the not-very-threatening Piedt - though it was nicely bowled ; and any Steyn injury is bad news for SA. Though he's a tough lad...not too shocked to see him back out there.

England on top but a long way to go in this match.

[guildfordbat]

Hi guildford

I'd agree with most of your points : but think Jones is correct in suggesting Woakes probably needs to add a few tricks to his package if he is to be seen as Anderson's eventual successor. If he is just a "keep it tight" fourth seamer then he will struggle to get a regular position.
I'm not rushing to judgement yet though. Still in his 5th Test Match.

As for Bairstow I do agree he should have caught it ; but I'm not absolutely certain Buttler would have either...  If England were looking just for the best keeper , neither would be in the frame : but we all know that isn't how they pick them these days.
I do think Buttler has a good chance to make it back to the Test side ; but he appeared to have lost all batting form - and confidence - in UAE ; so I think it is a stretch to suggest he ought to be reinstalled at the moment.  Right now I'd prefer to see him win games for England in limited overs , and hopefully get some red ball practice for his county in between.  Whether Bairstow can hold the fort in the meantime we will see...

Hi again Alfie - yeah, I suppose in a somewhat selfish way I'm prepared to sacrifice Woakes' possible further development and use him as the (? specialist) 4th seamer as and when required. Pretty sure your lads and their mums wouldn't like that approach. Can understand that. I don't like it that much myself but just feel he's more likely to lose the strengths and uses he currently has than gain new ones and be a proper successor to Anderson. Anyway, happy to be proved wrong and, as you suggest, still early days.

After his Test batting disasters in the UAE, Buttler had one mega knock in an ODI. That and a quick recall might have been all he needed to restore his confidence. That's what I was hoping for although impossible to tell from this distance.

[GSC]

Hales seems somewhat restrained outside of T20s for England. You'd like to see him go after Piedt here.

[guildfordbat]

Piedt bowling a lot better than when I saw him in the first innings. Too many loose deliveries then. Still doesn't look a world beater but much more in control so far today.

[Duty281]

England need to get a move on now. Twenty overs seen off, movement little, only one wicket lost, Steyn injured - get the Saffers on the back foot.

[GSC]

Its day 3 and they're effectively 125-1 Duty. They have all the time in the world.

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