Saffers - England, 1st test, Durban - match thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Jimmy Anderson officially out, Woakes and Finn expected to be named with Jordan, footitt and ballance missing out.

Joe Root missing training today due to an upset stomach, but should be ok for day one

[king_carlos]

With Moeen a County Championship number 3 and Woakes having an appreciably higher First Class average than Stokes I would hope that the selectors would consider rotating him out if it best suited the side for the surface.

I can't see it happening myself as Stokes is viewed as a linchpin in the side. I think he's talented enough to perform that role but until he is showing consistency with either bat or ball (let alone both) I wouldn't be at all adverse to him being rotated out when required.

Just to repeat some past praise for Moeen - feel he's earned it. Saw him make an excellent attacking century batting at number 3 for Worcs against Surrey at the Oval in 2014. Really got after Batty and (another of Olly's pin ups) Ansari. Anyway, soon after he was out, there was no resting on his laurels during the lunch interval. He was straightaway back on the outfield and practising his bowling. Never the most naturally gifted bowler but an extremely dedicated one.

He's yet another guy in the lower middle order who is a very talented batsmen but yet to show it consistently in test cricket. Between Stokes, Woakes, Moeen, Dilly and Bairstow/Buttler we should be able to fashion a strong 6-8 that provides a 5 man attack.

I've stated my thoughts on the keeper vs runs debate so I will refrain from a rant. To say something positive about a batsmen who keeps, having a guy like Bairstow at 7 should give more stability to the lower order (presuming he will be given a run) if the coaches want to shuffle their all rounders either side of him.

[king_carlos]

Anderson was bowling plenty of overs worth in the middle this morning and looking fully fit so will presumably be available and come in.

SA have added De Kock and all rounder Chris Morris to their squad for the next test. I'd presume that De Kock will definitely come in to relieve ABDV of the gloves and add a much needed in form batsmen to their line-up.

1.Elgar
2.Van Zyl
3.Amla (c)
4.ABDV
5.Du Plessis
6.Buvuma
7.De Kock (wk)
8.Abbott - Maybe Steyn if he can get fit
9.Piedt
10.Morkel
11.Rabada

[KP_fan]

SA needs #change of leadership#

[Duty281]

Very nice win for England. Yes, they are the better team and should be expected to win, but coming back from 12/2 on the opening day is an excellent sign of tremendous mental fortitude.

Compton was magnificent, and Taylor and Root gave fine assistance. Bairstow, too, pushed England out of sight in the second innings.

Bowling-wise: Broad wonderful, Finn came on strong, and Moeen was once again highly irritating.

With South Africa getting weaker (no Steyn) and England getting stronger (James!), there is no reason why England shouldn't go 2-0 up in the series, particularly with the quick turn-around in Tests.

England now 4/7 to win the series, from 3/1. At last, the bookmakers cotton on.

[KP_fan]

Very nice win for England. Yes, they are the better team and should be expected to win, but coming back from 12/2 on the opening day is an excellent sign of tremendous mental fortitude.

Compton was magnificent, and Taylor and Root gave fine assistance. Bairstow, too, pushed England out of sight in the second innings.

Bowling-wise: Broad wonderful, Finn came on strong, and Moeen was once again highly irritating.

With South Africa getting weaker (no Steyn) and England getting stronger (James!), there is no reason why England shouldn't go 2-0 up in the series, particularly with the quick turn-around in Tests.

England now 4/7 to win the series, from 3/1. At last, the bookmakers cotton on.

Good summary.....Compton is a perfect test match batsman
and Ali already a differentiation in many a England win and close draws
yet at the first mediocre game...these two will get severest criticism.

[CaledonianCraig]

The satisfying thing from England's point of view was that everyone made a contribution of sorts (aside from Cook but he was due an off-day). Compton top scored in the match, Root's second innings was important, Taylor weighed in with handy scores, Stokes was quiet but made the key breakthrough yesterday, Bairstow had two sizeable scores, Ali was great with key wickets, Broad miserly and key wickets in the first innings, Woakes even contributed with a wicket and some runs whilst Finn was perhaps the pick of the England bowlers.

[guildfordbat]

Hi Craig - yes, a commanding team performance by England with a lot of significant individual contributions.

Thought you also made a very valid point yesterday about history being against SA and that, whilst records are there to be broken, you're not going to get that from a team so low in form and confidence.

[Gooseberry]

yet at the first mediocre game...these two will get severest criticism.

....from rent a gobs like KP?

[msp83]

Terrific win for England. Solid contributions from Compton, Taylor, Broad, Finn, Ali, Bairstow and Root. Particularly happy to see Compton's runs and Finn's wickets.......

[msp83]

South Africa went into this test with 4 bowlers one of whom wasn't really fit enough, 2 batsmen one of whom had to double up as wicketkeeper. Among the rest of them, only Bavuma earned a place in the side through recent performance. That is asking for trouble, and they got more than what they asked for. Atrocious performance. Unless there is a radical restructuring of the side, they just don't have a chance.
Raf seems to think van Zyl is still worth it. But the guy gets bowled far too often for a test level batsman. There are players who have gone through a similar issue in their career. Bairstow for a start. India's Cheteshwar Pujara too has a bit of an issue. But Pujara is a champion of spin, and Bairstow has scored a few runs, not big enough or consistent enough. But van Zyl has been a total disaster. Doesn't look likely to score test runs against any side other than West Indies, and even Chris Martin would have fancied his chance of a test ton against the current West Indies. Styan just have to go....... Have read about the Cook guy a bit, going by his name itself, he should know a thing or 2 about opening.......
AB's possible retirement was the big talking point during the test, he may not go that far soon, but asking him to keep in this situation is criminal, bring back de Kock for the next test.......
I really like what I have seen of young Rabada, he has to be back for the next test, for either Steyn or Abbott depending on the former's fitness situation.
Cook for van Zyl, de Kock for du Plessis, and Russouw for Duminy.
England should perhaps consider not inflicting James Anderson on this batting lineup as an act of kindness!

[msp83]

Well, they've called up Quinton de Kock, and Chris Morris into the squad. No Stephen Cook, and Styan van Zyl, du Plessis and Duminy are all retained.
Chrisinfo speculates it might be Bavuma who might drop out. Quinton has to take the gloves.......
Bavuma to open, de Kock in for van Zyl, Rabada for the injured Steyn, and Morris for either du Plessis or Abbott.
They might instead go for de Kock for Bavuma and Rabada for Steyn.

[kingraf]

Van Zyl is the truth Msp. You will Believe The HYPE!

[Mad for Chelsea]

Appropriate finish with Broad pinning Morkel...

He'd be my MoTM for his decisive first innings bowling - and valuable runs. Though you could make a case for Moeen or Compton.

Thumping win for England . And relatively short last day - important if they lose the toss at Newlands.

For the leftest of left field choices, how about a nomination for Cook? The way he led the team and being symbolic of a near perfect team performance.

I seem to remember a Test match back in the late 90's between SA and the WI where MOTM went to the entire SA team for a complete performance. Would have felt reasonably appropriate here IMO as everyone in the England team contributed something to the win.

See Moeen actually got it. Fair enough really...

Hi MfC - I didn't know that about the SA team in the late '90's but do recall Lancs' skipper Jack Abrahams getting MOTM when his side won a Lord's domestic one day final in the early to mid '80s. He was staggered to get the award as he had got a duck and hadn't bowled (he was only an occasional bowler). The decision was made (? by Peter May) for Lancs' all round excellent fielding and teamwork. It attracted a lot of surprise although I considered it fair and understandable at the time.

Here, I'm actually quite happy to see Moeen get it. Did his primary job admirably and consistently through the two SA innings. Not only 7 match wickets but also a low economy rate (under 2.3) in his 51 overs. That last part was particularly valuable and helped keep the seamers fresh.

Have tracked down the Test match in question

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63823.html

"Players of the match - PR Adams (South Africa), MV Boucher (South Africa), WJ Cronje (South Africa), DJ Cullinan (South Africa), AA Donald (South Africa), HH Gibbs (South Africa), JH Kallis (South Africa), G Kirsten (South Africa), L Klusener (South Africa), SM Pollock (South Africa) and JN Rhodes (South Africa)"

[VTR]

Very good win, have been away so was hard to keep up with the score over the last three days, but England got ahead and dominated from there on

Only really Stokes, Woakes and Hales who did not contribute much, though both the all rounders do a decent job so good to have options. Hales needs a run of games to be judged fairly

[sirfredperry]

Durban presented the best chance for England to win away against SA for years - possibly since their return to Test cricket in 1992. SA had a half-fit Steyn, with Amla - and most of the other batsmen - out of form.
The fact that England won easily with with no runs from Cook and with their best bowler absent speaks volumes about SA.

[CaledonianCraig]

South Africa are ranked No.1 but their recent form suggests they are some way short of being the best Test side in the world. They were hammered in India, have players in a poor run of form and are amidst trying ro rebuild have lost a number of key players in the last couple of years.

England's form has been patchy of late and have been tweaking their side in search of the right mix and seeking more consistent performers. They have players in this side who are hungry and with a point to prove such as Compton, Taylor, Bairstow and Finn and that helps a great deal.

At present South Africa are like a team that has been hit by sledgehammer blows (heavy losses and loss of legendary players) and look in disarray at this point in time. England have been there and done that but are just emerging out of that long dark tunnel that South Africa are just entering.

[GSC]

Dont see Anderson or Steyn playing.

If Anderson isnt fit enough to be considered for the first test, can you really trust him 7 days later?

Cant see Steyn recovering in 2 days. Might risk them in an ODI but cant risk them going off in the morning of day 1 and being down a front line bowler for all 5 days.

[Stella]

Anderson was close to being fit for the first test, so no reason why he won't play, unless something happens in between now and then.

[kingraf]

Dont see Anderson or Steyn playing.

If Anderson isnt fit enough to be considered for the first test, can you really trust him 7 days later?

Cant see Steyn recovering in 2 days. Might risk them in an ODI but cant risk them going off in the morning of day 1 and being down a front line bowler for all 5 days.

Was only a spasm or at worst a grade 1- strain. He'll play unless they don't want to risk him. But at a game down I think he'll play

[Mad for Chelsea]

My understanding as that Anderson could have played the first Test, but it was touch-and-go and England chose not to risk him. Certainly they expected him to be fully fit for Test 2, and by all accounts he had some long bowls in the nets and on the square in the wake of the first game, so I expect him to come in, replacing Woakes.

Steyn is trickier. The scan was "inconclusive" IIRC so no great damage, but would surely be a risk picking someone just three days after they weren't fit enough to bowl? Rabada looked a fine bowler in India, and could surely be relied on to do the business. Of course, it's all rather irrelevant unless SA can sort out their batting anyway...

[kingraf]

Problem is Abbott is also possibly down so if Styeyn doesn't play Rabada will come in alongside either South Africa's Chris Jordan, Chris Morris or Hardus Viljoen, who while red hot at the moment (back to back ten fers) would be making his international debut (in fact this is his first ever squad invite... how's that for a jump). Asking a lot for Morne to lead such an inexperienced line up.

[CaledonianCraig]

It is glaringly obvious where South Africa's problems lie - it is in the batting department. Bowling-wise the Proteas still managed to take twenty wickets in Durban (even without Steyn for the majority of it). The batting is anotherafter. No century partnerships this year and only de Villiers average for the year is respectable whilst the rest of the batsmen are toiling.

[GSC]

Not sure SA really shone in the bowling department either to be fair.

[alfie]

Not sure SA really shone in the bowling department either to be fair.

I thought they did OK. Bit off on day one , Steyn excepted ; but they came back well on the second morning and battled away quite well despite going a bowler down very early in the second innings. Their main problem was the lack of a fourth seamer - which handicapped them a little as early as the first afternoon...and obviously , more so once Steyn went down.

Looking ahead : I know he will want to play even not fully fit but I have to say I'd be surprised to see him risked on Saturday. Truth is , he won't be around for ever and this may be a good a time to see how Rabada & co can stand up in a vital home Test in his absence...

[CaledonianCraig]

Not sure SA really shone in the bowling department either to be fair.

I never said the bowling shined but to take twenty wickets in the match despite being short of their linchpin bowler for half of the test and being a four man attack says they did well. It is the Saffers batting that needs to really up its game.

[kingraf]

Not sure SA really shone in the bowling department either to be fair.

I never said the bowling shined but to take twenty wickets in the match despite being their linchpin bowler for half of the test says they did well. It is the Saffers batting that needs to really up its game.

I agree. I think our bowlers gave a good account of themselves. Any time you take 20 wickets for 600ish runs on a fair wicket your bowlers have given you a chance.

Back to Steyn, as mentioned the fact that Abbott may not play comolicates matters. Rabada only has two test caps and Viljoen/Morris will have none. Its a huge ask of them to throw down a big performance a game down.

[msp83]

I said it before, young Rabada really looks the part. He has the makings of a fine, fine fast bowler, and he, even at this stage of his career, has to be a head of Abbott. Early indications on Steyn were that he is unlikely for the next test? So Rabada in for Steyn, Morris in for Abbott. I would in fact prefer to see Morris in for du Plessis or Duminy. Quinton d K for van Zyl, Bavuma to open.
Raf, how is Viljoen with the bat?

[kingraf]

I said it before, young Rabada really looks the part. He has the makings of a fine, fine fast bowler, and he, even at this stage of his career, has to be a head of Abbott. Early indications on Steyn were that he is unlikely for the next test? So Rabada in for Steyn, Morris in for Abbott. I would in fact prefer to see Morris in for du Plessis or Duminy. Quinton d K for van Zyl, Bavuma to open.
Raf, how is Viljoen with the bat?

Not great. More Morne Morkel than Dale Steyn.

Steyn confirmed out. Abbott to have a fitness test later today.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Pretty much confirmed de Kock will come in and bat 7, which suggests either Bavuma or Duminy will be left out, though could be Van Zyl with someone else pushed up to open. SA should really pick a specialist opener though...

[kingraf]

Interested to see the composition of the XI which plays. If Abbott isn't fit I really hope Viljoen gets a game. The thinking behind Morris is probably that he can chip in with the bat and while I understand that thinking when the team can't buy a run... You pick bowlers to bowl. Viljoen is on another plane to Morris at the moment. Amla doesn't do four seamers apparently so Piedt definitely gets another run. Hope he works on his economy rate though because he does go for runs.

van Zyl will probably have given the selectors enough reason to give him another go with his start in the second innings. Plus Newlands is his home track so he'll be glad to be back to familiar waters.

[guildfordbat]

Pretty much confirmed de Kock will come in and bat 7, which suggests either Bavuma or Duminy will be left out, though could be Van Zyl with someone else pushed up to open. SA should really pick a specialist opener though...

Totally agree, MfC. Like most international team sports, Test cricket is difficult enough for any individual having to play against others who are often amongst the best in the world without being required to play out of position.

[CaledonianCraig]

South Africa's selectors though, are now in unfamiliar territory with regards to team selection. For a number of years the team has largely picked itself but that is not now the case. The selectors now have tough decisions to make.

[GSC]

Pitch looks pretty green ahead of tomorrow

[guildfordbat]

Raf, do you think Amla has been on a slow slide since he got the captaincy?
He seems to struggle more these days and it's as though he's lacking confidence. His body language was never super confident but do you reckon it's head or heart under pressure... or he will come good at some stage in the near future? He just seems to have lost the urge to stand and fight but maybe I'm reading him wrong though.

Hi LD, Raf et al - I was a bit surprised that Amla got the captaincy of his country. I don't claim any great inside knowledge but I did have a decent chat with one of the Surrey players (Amla's played for Surrey off and on for a couple of our summers) about him a year or so back. I would emphasise that nothing of a critical nature was said but it did leave me with the feeling that, apart from when he's batting, Amla prefers to be in the chorus rather than centre stage. In particular, he was never late for training but was normally the last to arrive. Furthermore, he was perfectly pleasant in the dressing room without being at all outgoing. He would happily offer advice upon request but wouldn't seek to push forward his views.

All in all, an obviously wonderful batsman and a very decent guy but perhaps one with whom the captaincy demands of Test cricket wouldn't rest easily. That may be total b*ll*cks but that was the definite perception I got from a highly intelligent young Surrey cricketer who had trained and played with him.

All plaudits to ''highly intelligent young cricketer, c/o the Oval''.

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