Aviva Premiership - Round 9

First topic message reminder :

Table

Team	--P--	--W--	--D--	--BP--	Points
Saracens	8	8	0	4	36
Exeter	8	6	0	6	30
Harlequins	8	5	1	5	27
Leicester	8	6	0	1	25
Northampton	8	4	0	5	21
Gloucester	8	4	1	2	20
Sale Sharks	8	3	1	3	17
Bath	8	3	0	4	16
Wasps	8	3	0	3	15
Worcester	8	2	0	4	12
Newcastle	8	1	1	0	6
London Irish	8	1	0	0	4

Fixtures

Fri 8th Jan 16

19:45 Bath Rugby Bath P - P Sale Sharks
Postponed to allow Bath to travel to Toulon.


Sat 9th Jan 16

15:00 Exeter Chiefs  v   Gloucester Rugby
Both sides have growing injury lists, but at home Chiefs should have too much and maintain their place at second in the table.

15:00 Harlequins  v   Saracens
Common wisdom is that Quins are incapable of beating Saracens. common wisdom is that they will struggle up front and then run into blind alleys. Common wisdom states that Saracens are too clinical, too ruthless and just too awesome for a fragile Harlequins.
Well Love sacks to common wisdom. Quins are tougher up front this year and should conditions be dry have easily enough to run the famed Sarries defence ragged, especially if McCall decides to conhcentrate on next weeks visit from Ulster. Will it be dry though?

15:15 Leicester Tigers  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
Saints are in the poorest form I have seen since the relegation season - yet win at their old rivals and they will be in the Top 4! Will Mallinder decide to come with his strongest team, or will he be looking ahead to the Glasgow fixture next week? To be honest I am not sure the visitors can afford to worry about next week, they have to win this weekend in front of what will be the biggest ever crowd at Welford Road. Saints will be ruing the injury to Brookes, but will be certain they can get scrummage control - though it is possible that young Paul hill may learn a lesson or two from Marcos Ayerza. Saints will look to replicate the Sarries template from last week, take the scrum penalties, kick to the cornes and maul like crazy. They have shown little creative ability otherwise this season - but may well be looking for a Penalty Try TBP.
This game is free to air, for any interested.

Sun 10th Jan 16

13:00 London Irish  v   Newcastle Falcons BT Sport
Huge game for both clubs, but even more so for the hosts. They cannot afford to lose but can their half backs give them the control they need? Newcastle will look to dominate at scrum time, but have to improve at the lineout if they are to secure a vital away win. In their favour, the lineout is an area that LI have really struggled in. LI will be looking to take advantage of what has been at times a porous defence and certainly have some speedy backs who could prosper.


14:00 Wasps  v   Worcester Warriors
Wasps have looked like Gods in the ECC, but like dogs at times in the AP. Gopperth has had his one good display of the season and shoudl be dispensed with. Simpson needs to regain his earlier form. Most of all though they need hughes and Smith to be fit.
Wuss will fight for everything and never give up. If Wasps are not on top form they could prosper.

Londontiger there's a time and a place.

I am not suggesting throwing Itoje or Clifford for example as starters vs Scotland as things stand.

Currently I would have Kruis/Launchbury with Itoje and Clifford as the lock/backrow replacements.

I go nuclear when any coach makes idiotic decisions - whether it's Saracens or England.

To be honest my England pack probably isn't that dramatically different from others.

1.Mako
2.George
3.Cole
4.Kruis
5.Launchbury
6.Robshaw
7.Ksevic
8.Billy

Pack Bench
Marler
Hartley
Whoever is fit at 3
Itoje
Clifford

Wilson must stand a good chance of a spot on the bench as he can cover all backrow positions and lock to a good standard.

Sgt Pooly you're deluded.

Want to make a bet? I bet Wilson doesn't make the England squad.

if Wilson makes the England squad I will make a thread praising Wilson, eating humble pie and proclaiming his greatness.

If I win you have to make an article praising Itoje (if he makes the squad).

Deal?

If Wilson doesn't make the squad it doesn't make Itoje a better player than what he is and vice versa.

beshocked wrote:I dismiss Wilson because I don't think he's in the same class as Itoje and have no argument to suggest he should be. It's not just Itoje I think that is superior to Wilson, there are numerous players. I only bring him up because both you and Pooly talk up Wilson and dismiss Itoje.

You dismiss Wilson completely. Even Tigers and saints fans acknowledge that he is a cracking player...and not only that he covers 5/6/7/8 always to an extremely consistent level.

What is the argument about, chalk and cheese. Itoje is a lock that can play at 6, Wilson is an 8 who often plays at 6 and can if required play lock.

On a Saints platform it is like comparing Lawes to Clark. Lawes is a lock that can play 6, Clark is a back row that can play 6 or 7 and deputise as a lock.

Neither can be compared with each other in their occasional positions against their normal position

Basically what you are saying is that you're not going to back up your claims about Wilson with a little bet.

Fair enough.

It would be a recognition that Eddie Jones rates Wilson as much as you do. You are right it wouldn't necessary make Wilson a better player than Itoje but at least you would have the backing of the English set up to use in your argument.

If you truly believe that Wilson is better than Itoje then surely you should trust in the new England set up to agree with you?

Geordiefalcon yet neither Saints or Tigers have snapped him up. Especially surprising for Tigers as of course they sign quite a few Newcastle players...

Having a bet isn't going to change my opinion on a player, it's meaningless.

Itjoe will probably make the squad as he has the media bandwagon behind him and the coaching set-up is all Saracens.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What is the argument about, chalk and cheese. Itoje is a lock that can play at 6, Wilson is an 8 who often plays at 6 and can if required play lock.

On a Saints platform it is like comparing Lawes to Clark. Lawes is a lock that can play 6, Clark is a back row that can play 6 or 7 and deputise as a lock.

Neither can be compared with each other in their occasional positions against their normal position

Of course you can compare Lawes and Clark.

One is an established international, the other so far has shown he's good club level player but has not yet shown that he would do just as well at international level. I feel that Lawes is a much more valuable player than Clark when both are in form and fit.

One is an established international, the other so far has shown he's good club level player but has not yet shown that he would do just as well at international level."

Like Robshaw against Itoje?

Was it just me that took the Wilson for England talk from our Geordie friends as slightly tongue in cheek?

Sgt Pooly you're comparing a 21 year old to a 29 year old. It's likely Itoje will win his first England cap at a younger age than Robshaw won his first....

Clark vs Lawes is a 26 year old vs a 26 year old - okay Clark is 4 months younger but still...

BamBam you would hope so but I don't think they are being serious.

BamBam wrote:Was it just me that took the Wilson for England talk from our Geordie friends as slightly tongue in cheek?

No idea what you're talking about Bam.

Geordiefalcon yet neither Saints or Tigers have snapped him up. Especially surprising for Tigers as of course they sign quite a few Newcastle players...

Because they are both currently stocked to the hilt with back rowers.

BamBam wrote:Was it just me that took the Wilson for England talk from our Geordie friends as slightly tongue in cheek?

No Bam you are correct, I think Wilson is a Saxons at best. But he is a really top class premiership player...a Dowson type level who most sides would want.

The debate has come about because Beshocked flat down refuses to accept that.

As a huge Robshaw fan (and rightly so, he's in great form and arguable man of the match in the last 2 games and very impressive for the few before that, proving that he can indeed play 6 very well), I'd still say that Itoje has stacks of potential and if Launchbury is out I would quite like him to play for England this 6N. I don't think he's gonna get in at 6, Robshaw adds experience to a pack that is going to be trying a couple of new players, but I don't think many would complain if the Sarries duo of Itoje and Kruis started or at least Itoje came off the bench (with someone like Lawes or Kitchener starting), covering 6 as well - which allows us to pick a specialist 8 on the bench

Wilson is a good player though. The trouble is there are a lot of good backrowers, so there will always be tough competition and most sides have good provision in this area, so they wouldn't need to snap players up when they are probably saving for a superstar or trying to tie down their key players

CJ,

I am starting to see noises in the press that while there will be a Quin in the squad covering backrow, it will not be Robshaw.

Of course come Wednesday the speculation is over and the brickbats will get serious.

If it's Clifford, much as I rate him, I think it would be a horrible decision, and inexplicable based on form and age, never mind experience etc, to drop Robshaw from the EPS.

IF that happens, all the better for us with arguably the best backrower in England with Quins for the 6 Nations, but we will see.

If it's Wallace, then I am already worried about Jones' decision making...

Though conversely, aside from singularly awful Times, all the papers I've read, which I think is all of them? seem very pro-keeping Robshaw.

I would be stunned if Robshaw was dropped. And could only believe it was for non rugby reasons, which doesn't exactly start Jones' tenure out on the right foot.

Would be great for Quins though. Except it may make Robshaw into super-depressed post World Cup Robshaw who looked like he might commit suicide in the middle of each match :/ Poor bloke

Eddie Jones would be utterly stupid to not start v Scotland with Robshaw at 6.

Clifford from the bench fine...but Robshaw is proven class!

3 citings from Quins/Sarries match.

The statutory one for Gill having been red carded, plus Horwill (striking incident that saw him punished with yellow) and Ward (Biting).

Can't believe that Ward would bite. If he has, he needs a lengthy ban, but I've never seen him do anything dark like that

didn't see the Ward incident, but wouldn't be surprised if Horwill was given a fairly lengthy ban. Basically knocking out his opposite number with a swinging arm didn't look good. Gill won't get much, maybe 2 weeks or so considering it was already dealt with on field.

The Low End bans are:

Gill (10.4(j) - 4 wks
Horwill (10.4(a)) - 2 wks
Ward (10.4(m) - 12 wks


Hearings tomorrow from 18:30

yeah but Gill will get low end and half the time off for good previous behaviour or something

Ward and Horwill acquitted, Gill get 3 weeks.

wasn't far off with Gill, surprised Horwill got away with that TBH.