Making a Murderer - Contains Spoilers

Not sure if anyone has seen this yet. It is being shown on Netflix currently. For those that have access to Netflix I cannot recommend it highly enough. In summary the series is a documentary filmed over 10 years covering a guy called Steven Avery. Avery was initially charged with and convicted of a sexual assault and attempted murder in the 1980s. Throughout both his trial and incarceration Avery maintained his innocence and some 18 years into his sentence new DNA evidence or science emerged that not only supported his claim but identified the actual perpetrator, a breakthrough which inevitably led to Avery’s rightful release.


As was his right Avery sued the State and local police force for both is wrongful conviction and imprisonment. Without giving too much away the documentary certainly suggests some less than laudable police work was used in securing his conviction and on the face of it the chances of Avery securing compensation for his ordeal looked strong, a pay-out which could have been as high as $36,000,000.


All of this is interesting enough but where things really get interesting is within two weeks of the police officers involved giving their deposition Avery is charged with a second murder, this time of a young lady who visited his property to take pictures of a vehicle he was selling. Where this gets really murky and attention grabbing is many of the police who were complicit in Avery’s initial conviction are also involved in this arrest and the gathering of evidence against him in the second trial, this despite the fact that the crime was meant to be investigated by a different state to avoid a conflict of interest.


Yet again Avery maintains his innocence and denies murdering the young lady and whilst I won’t give away whether he is convicted of the second accusation suffice to say the documentary raises some very interesting and jaw dropping questions about the techniques used to make a case against him and whether he is actually responsible for the murder. What makes the second trial even more interesting is Avery’s nephew Brendan Dassey is also charged with the murder. Dassey was at the time 16, with an education level some years below that age. Again at the risk of giving too much away, the police methods of interviewing and grilling Dassey leave one hell of a bad taste in the mouth and the legal representation he is assigned by the State makes Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny look competent.


The level of access the film makers have to the trial, the evidence and Avery and his family is nothing short of remarkable. For anyone who has not seen this I genuinely urge you to do so, I watched all ten episodes in a matter of days and it has been on my mind pretty much constantly since I finished it. For anyone who has seen it feel free to give your thoughts on the trial outcomes, the evidence presented or any other thoughts on the myriad questions raised by the series below.

Probably the best documentary that I've ever seen. My wife and I watched them all in two evenings. Really gripping stuff and I had to read up anything I could find online about the show and Steve Avery.

Unbelievable the level of corruption in the police, FBI, DA. All out to stitch up this guy. The DA was a disgrace but Len Kasinsky takes some beating. Deserves a beating too.


As you say it stays with you after watching as it really does connect and I hope although I wouldn't hold my breath, that Avery and Dassey get a fair shake with the amount of media coverage of this show.

So much to say about this show but it would be difficult without completely spoiling it for anyone else reading.

Everyone should watch it though and a terrestrial channel should buy the rights to it next year when they become available. Amazing.

Kasinsky is a guy you would never get bored of hitting. Shockingly incompetent, seemed more interested in getting in front of a TV company than representing his client, who was 16 let's not forget, best interests.

Like you I dearly hope the attention this has garnered gets this case re-examined. The thought of Dassey not getting out at the earliest for another 30 odd years is genuinely heartbreaking. You'd have to have had a fairly stony heart not to crack when he read the letter out at the end of the last episode.

Looking at the stuff online Dassey appears to have the better chance, he still has some appeal rights he has not exhausted and the "evidence" compiled against him seems the least compelling. Can only hope Avery's case will snowball on the back of that.

He was 16

It just defies all logic that a man looking at receiving $36 million after spending 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't even commit would then jeopardise that by committing a murder. It was clearly a set up.
Dassey I really did feel sorry for. Just a boy that clearly had a learning disability. The police could have got him to say literally anything and they did. It really does defy belief that that kid could spend the next 30 odd years in prison.

I couldn't say how I'd react if one of my family was murdered like Teresa Holbach however I just couldn't get my head around the brother not questioning any of the evidence that he heard throughout the case. Surely you'd think there's at least something not right here. Also why was he deleting messages. Very dodgy and the ex boyfriend didn't seem right either.

Scott Tabych was another that I wouldn't trust. So many shifty people around.

Was discussing it with my wife last night and agreed that Avery will never get out. The state will do everything to keep him in as the suiing they'd received for a wrongful conviction this time could pale into comparison. It's a real shame but he literally has no chance. As a result of that I can't imagine how they could ever leave Brendan out either. They should and it would be right but just seeing the show will show who they are dealing with. Really sad stuff.

What I dont get though is the DA, when trying to get the guilty verdict for Avery said it was "one man and one man only", then Dassey got jailed aswell.

Yeah that didn't get played on at all.

There were a number of weird inconsistencies in how they prosecuted the two trials. When Avery was on trial they pretty much disregarded Dassey’s testimony she was killed in the bedroom, as they were aware there was a complete absence of even a shred of DNA evidence to support this claim, and they pretty much focused exclusively on the theory she was killed in the garage, yet when they tried Dassey they convicted him almost exclusively on the confession he gave, where he said she was killed in the bedroom. There was no consistent narrative as to how she was actually killed once on the property across the two trials. It would be half way understandable were they tried in different counties or by different DA’s but when they were both tried by the same prosecutor it is troubling in the extreme that these inconsistencies do not seem apparent to him, or that he is so ready and willing to disregard them.

The whole thing just kind of stinks, the idea that those two could clean the kill site, wherever it may be, of pretty much every single shred of DNA, to the point where it is undetectable by trained forensic examiners, but would leave clear and blatant evidence of his own blood in her car just makes no sense whatsoever. If they’re clever enough to leave no traces of the crime in the property they are bright enough to do likewise with the car, if they’re stupid enough to leave evidence in the car, they are stupid enough to do likewise in the property. Nothing else really seems to make sense to my way of thinking.

RinoGattuso wrote:He was 16

True enough, have edited post and thread

Mindblowing, absolutely mindblowing. I cannot help but believe both are innocent.

Tadych is the one who did it if you ask me, but the police are more than culpable. Jesus, the fact that they, again with Avery, failed to investigate anyone else is just insane.

Every authority figure in that system is corrupt as hell. They are not a charming family if you read up about what some (those that Stephen suspects did kill Teresa) have done in the past, but the police wanted rid. I think Manitowoc county wanted rid too.

I cannot believe both were sent down. Its either one story or the other and it seems Avery is jail for killing the girl alone in his garage while Dassey is in jail for killing her in the bedroom with Avery. And the jury on Avery's trial worries me.

Apparently missing evidence from the series:

Avery’s sweat DNA found on the hood latch of Halbach’s vehicle discovered by Calumet County law enforcement.
Handcuffs and leg shackles were found in Avery’s bedroom.
Halbach’s cell phone and camera were found burnt in a burn barrel.
Her DNA was found on a bullet from Avery's gun.

The only one of those I find interesting is the handcuffs and shackles.

The sweat has been debunked too

very interesting series. It is heavily biased towards Avery, but, given that caveat, very compelling that he was set up. However, it is this year's cause celebre, just as Rubin Hurricane Carter was back in 74 / 75 and yet it took many more years before he was acquitted. Sadly, don't see Avery ever seeing freedom again.

bhb001 wrote:very interesting series. It is heavily biased towards Avery,.

Agree, in their defence the film makers have said Kratz was given many opportunities to be interviewed or have more of an input into the content of the series, but declined. I agree re Avery's chances of seeing freedom again. His only hope I would suspect is if Dassey's various appeals succeed, and his case gets traction on the back of that. Either way I suspect that is a good few years away if it ever happens.

He's got new, and highly successful, attorneys and a climate where people trust the police less than they did before. Combined with public support he might well have a chance.

Am I sure he's innocent? No, but I can't find him guilty.

Absolutely enthralling piece of film making.

Few questions i pulled up from the series...

~ Why was Hilegas (Halbach's ex boyfriend) part of the search party looking for her; and why was nobody else suspicious of the fact that he had access to her phone records?

~ Despite being deposed why was Andrew Colborn still a major part of the court case? Surely he should've been removed from the case out of respect for Avery.

~ The brother (that testified against Avery) seemed very shifty; and subsequently Avery has said he believes his brothers may have killed Halbach; did they not investigate him?

~ Why did Brendan Dassey's defence team not include the footage from the interview where he tells his mother that Fassbender and Wiegart got in his head?

Not convinced of Avery's innocence myself, but like Dolphin, i can't find him guilty. Kratz said recently that Halbach had met Avery before and had been creeped out by him before; and that Avery called from an unknown number twice on the day she went missing (*67) and then again later in the afternoon, but this time without withholding his number, which seems odd.

He allegedly told inmates in prison during his first stint that he was planning to build a dungeon, which is weird.

Indeed, but there's a huge amount of evidence to suggest you don't trust prison rumours.

I have also seen much reasoning behind the blocked call thing, as well as the fact the testimony about her being creeped out by him was blocked from court. Much of Kratz stuff has been absolutely ripped apart since.

Interestingly, Jodi has come out recently and said Avery was a monster and abusive, but it seems very hard to take anything from the women who so desperately supported him after the fact. She could be right, she could be a bitter maniac

Seems very odd that she would make these comments after having her drinking habits spotlighted during the show.

The phone and palm pilot thing would be just as easy for the police to plant; was there actually any chance of him receiving $36m for his original 18 year stint?

If you like this, watch The Jinx. Much more gripping IMO.

The other thing that sits on my mind is why was more attention not paid to the fact that Colborn was clearly stood next to the Rav 4 when he called in to check the registration number?

Its all an absolute clusterfudge. They seem to say its impossible the police did it. I'm not so sure its even a huge stretch. It was probably Avery or someone linked to him, but those cops were desperate and corrupt as hell

It seems incredibly far fetched to think that the police had anything to do with her murder, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was someone close to him, they were all a bit 'odd' in his family.

Finished watching this last night.
Excellent viewing, very gripping.

One thing I did notice in the Steven avert case, was when the defence were questioning the sherrif's and others called to the stand, apart from yes, no answers, they seemed to pause for a bit as if to think, damn what am I going to say here. I don't want to say the wrong thing.
When asked by the prosecution they answered quicker and a more flowing answer. That's what it seemed to me at times.

The brother didn't seem to care or question when the videos of Brendan were shown and how he was coarsed into saying things.

Agree don't think Avery will ever get out.
He's fighting his case.
As for Brendan he may do, with all the publicity and now a TVs show, people will have to take note.

Other thing I found interesting is the juror who was replaced, he even said things didn't add up and that some of the other jurors had pretty much made their mind up before the trial had started.

Len Kachinsky, didn't seem right from the start.
Also didn't like Kratz, found his voice irritating.

Lot of things don't add up.

Hopefully Brendan will get out in the future.

West, I think the point with them responding more confidently to the prosecutor is that they probably practiced it over and over again whereas they didn't know what the defence were going to ask so had to make certain they were giving consistent replies. I think that is more or less normal in trials though.

Would tend to agree Dassey appears to have much the better chance. Firstly, from an entirely practical point of view I don’t believe he has exhausted his appeal rights and so still has recourse to pursue his appeal. Secondly I think, and I stress I am speaking as a layman here, the case against him appears to be far the more shaky. Appreciate they have a confession, but it is one taken from a 16 year old child of limited intellectual abilities and taken without the presence of either a lawyer or responsible adult. Am not sure there is any kind of physical evidence against him and his story and timeline don’t particularly fit. Also if one believes Dassey’s confession she was killed in the bedroom, but again there is next to no DNA evidence to support this idea. As I mentioned earlier if she was raped and killed in the manner put forward in Dassey’s confession the idea that those two would be able to scrub the crime scene to such a level the crime would be undetectable simply does not ring true.

I saw an interview with the lawyers recently and they said they had been contacted with numerous scientists claiming they could disprove the blood evidence in the vehicle or could prove it was from the vial held in evidence. I would guess this is where Avery’s best hope rests as if there is new evidence he has a chance, as with his first conviction. Can only think this would be a slow process though. Just in sorting through which of the scientists were credible and which were enthusiastic amateurs or complete time wasters would be a time consuming process.

Would be interesting though if Dassey did get overturned, because if you are saying he did not do it, by dint it kind of follows that Avery’s version of what he was doing at the time gains more credence. For me the big fear is, as someone alluded to earlier, at the minute these two are kind of the cause celebre and so there is a groundswell of opinion for this to be looked in to. Unfortunately people move on particularly in such a multimedia age. You do worry about what will happen if nothing has moved within the next 12 months or so, will they be forgotten as people focus on the next good cause?

FFS Rowley

I have been recommended this show by all my friends and workmates I have not had the time recently to watch it but was looking forward to seeing it tonight. I have heard nothing but good things.

So thanks jeff you just ruined it for me.

plum

In fairness onetwo, the title does say, contains spoilers.

Shame for you though as it was excellent.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:FFS Rowley

I have been recommended this show by all my friends and workmates I have not had the time recently to watch it but was looking forward to seeing it tonight. I have heard nothing but good things.

So thanks jeff you just ruined it for me.

plum

Are you joking?

I hope thats a joke, OneTwo

Bloody brilliant and compelling, it had me shaking my head in utter disbelief. I could understand this sort of thing happening in the 40's and 50's but in the 21st century how could a case being televised not come under scrutiny more quickly?

I nearly fell off my chair when the judge hearing Avery appeal application was the same f*cking judge who presided over his trial. Oh yeah, he's going to admit he made a mistake during that trial.

Police chiefs fails to sign in at crime scene and next day damning evidence is found FOUR MONTHS after the property was originally searched? 40 acre salvage yard and Halbach's vehicle is found within 35 minutes and the woman finding it says "God pointed the way"? Contaminated DNA sample is still submitted and accepted on balance of probability and prosecutors say the lab technician was using her initiative when she submitted it rather than following protocol and declaring it unusable?

My God we could go on and on....

Great show, really hope Avery gets some justice but, like most of you, I can't see it happening.

Would recommend the podcast series Serial for those who enjoyed this. I'm only halfway through Series One, but its fascinating. And you can listen whilst driving so its easier to take into your day than this

I'm not sure I want to hear any more cases like this, it's now been 2 weeks since I finished watching it and I still can't stop getting annoyed about it.

Imagined how p*ssed people will be if he ever admits he did it?

"I nearly fell off my chair when the judge hearing Avery appeal application was the same f*cking judge who presided over his trial. Oh yeah, he's going to admit he made a mistake during that trial."

He was also weak as urine. Barely seemed to have an opinion on anything.

Alistair wrote:Imagined how p*ssed people will be if he ever admits he did it?

The (large and malevolent) twisted side of me would like to see him exonerated THEN come forward with proof that he did it but in a completely different way to how the state said he killed then he walks off into the sunset due to him not being able to be tried twice for the same crime.