European Knockout stages - who's going through?

First topic message reminder :

After five rounds, the qualifiers for knockout stages have three teams nominated - Leicester, Saracens and Racing 92.

Currently, as it stands, the order of teams involved in qualification is:

1. Saracens 24
2. Leicester 23
3. Racing    22
4. Ospreys 16 +12
5. Toulon 16 +0
6.  Wasps 15 +73
7. Clermont 14 +30
8. Stade Français 14 +53
9. Saints 14 -11
10. Ulster 13 +7
11. Exeter 11 -19
12. Bordeaux Begles 11 -23

Ulster play Oyonnax first and need a TBP plus as many points as possible to build their low PD.
Toulouse play Saracens. Nothing in it for Toulouse. Saracens will want the TBP ideally to secure top spot and a potential home semi.
Bath then host Toulon, whilst Wasps host Leinster. Toulon need a TBP and a good improvement in their points difference to set a target for Ospreys in their match the following day against Exeter to get the final home quarter.
Leinster could do Ulster a favour if they can continue their winning form and beat Wasps in Coventry - not likely though.
Racing don't have much in the game against Glasgow in Rugby Park as they can't drop lower than 3rd spot.
Saints need to get the full five points against Scarlets and hope other results go their way.
Leicester will know the results of the Racing and Saracens games before they take the pitch. They could drop a place to third but would still have home advantage. State Francais need the win to ensure they get a best runner-up spot.
Exeter host Ospreys with the Welsh club looking to top their group and win a potential home semi-final.
Clermont, at the same time, will hope Exeter do them a favour and they can win at home against UBB.
Lots to play for still.

VinceWLB wrote:Welsh and Irish teams would be much better if they had no limitations on imports like English and French teams, oh and a salary cap. The whole new competition is crap and not played on a level playing field.

And how is any of that caused by the new competition. This was true on the old competition.

Do the Welsh have limitations now? English clubs also have a salary cap. Both agreed internally.

How is it geared up to the English? If we were under the old version the results this year would be skewed to the English as they have some good teams.

Oh and bearing in mind that the England 6 Nations squad comes from 9 teams, the English talent is spread around so much more than in Ireland.

The new competition is no better, and no worse than the old one. We are currently in a cycle where the Irish teams are in decline (Connacht excepted) and the English improving. The Welsh teams are where they have been for the last decade and more.

LondonTiger wrote:
And how is any of that caused by the new competition. This was true on the old competition.

But only since the Toulon ascension did it have a negative impact, the new competition did nothing to address that.

Fair enough so the old comp was also rubbish and geared to the English? There's no way the French would agree to a cap so Euro rugby will always be the same as long as the French want to spend.

VinceWLB wrote:...The whole new competition is crap and not played on a level playing field...

I'm all in favour of a balanced competition, and would support efforts to achieve that goal. However, I have no time for the line of argument which tries to pin all the blame on the new competition.

It's pretty clear that most of the objections raised here apply equally to the old competition. The only one which might hold water is the belief that English and French clubs will gain revenue at a faster rate than Pro12 teams, which might exacerbate a wealth gap.

Yes, that's possible, but it isn't something which would immediately manifest itself, so the results we have seen so far would most likely have happened under the old format too.

If this competition is unbalanced, then the old Heineken would have been unbalanced too, since there was no self-righting mechanism built into that one.

It also does not work with there being best losers - as the teams in the weak groups get an unfair advantage - same as before - but could have been fixed

Make it the top 2 teams in each group go through, or just the top one- The mixing and rubbish of 'best losers' makes it even more a mockery

The new comp was supposed to try to make it fairer for all teams - and I wholeheartedly agreed with no automatic right for both Scottish teams getting in

But this new one has skewed it to the leagues that have no salary cap or 'illegally?' ignore it (Although not sure it is illegal)

The whole thing since England and France (EDIT - not their fans, but the governing bodies) threw their toys out the pram 3 years ago has been so shallow and you can almost touch the let down this competition has had in the masses - people are caring lesss and less about it and if not changes are made, I expect it to be dead in 5 years

What changes would you like to see, I'm assuming the top team going through alone wouldn't suffice?

Sadly, I can not see a cure while teams can buy the title

It is going down to the same road as football and I really worry when the over priced and under skilled cup competition becomes more important than the Internationals

It already has in France

It'll never change now the games professional. If it dies it dies, the only way it will become more important than internationals though is if it's a success so you'll have one or the other.