6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

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SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
6 February 2016
KO: 16:50 GMT
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC, RTE, FR2, DMAX / ITV(H)

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

133 Played 133
42 Won 73
18 Drawn 18
73 Lost 42
1,132 Points 1,547

B. Recent Form

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

1 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
16 – 12 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Matt Scott
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (captain)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

16. Stuart McInally
17. Gordon Reid
18. Zander Fagerson
19. Tim Swinson
20. Blair Cowan
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22. Duncan Weir
23. Duncan Taylor

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Owen Farrell
11. Jack Nowell
10. George Ford
09. Danny Care

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. George Kruis
06. Chris Robshaw
07. James Haskell
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Paul Hill
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Jack Clifford
21. Ben Youngs
22. Alex Goode
23. Ollie Devoto

Do the 7s players not play in the 6N?

I suspect a lot of the English women will be semi-pro in some regard, and they definintely have vastly more resources to choose from.

In Scotland we have one woman's league and a few Universities - I know people who only started playing rugby a year before becoming capped!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the 7s players not play in the 6N?

I suspect a lot of the English women will be semi-pro in some regard, and they definintely have vastly more resources to choose from.

In Scotland we have one woman's league and a few Universities - I know people who only started playing rugby a year before becoming capped!

Burgess...

I would actually quite like to say that it has been a pleasure debating this fixture, with the exception of a few obvious WUMS this thread has shed quite a bit of light on the match and the state of the England team which is sometimes covered quite incorrectly by the UK media.

The banter has been good and the vast majority of the posters knowledgeable. If only all the forum was like this!

Thanks guys

Just wait until 16:50 tomorrow...

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just wait until 16:50 tomorrow...

I'll be blootered by then I'm picking up my ticket tomorrow!

To all my fellow Scotland fans getting so terribly un-Scottish-ly optimistic about tomorrow, can I ask you all to watch the video below from 55:45 (match time).



The reason being that this was the last time that Scotland actually scored a try against England at Murrayfield. 12 years ago!!!

Since then our 6N Murrayfield record v England reads P5 W2 D1 L2 Tries:0

So it's not impossible to beat England at Murrayfield without scoring a try, and considering since 2004 we have lost 6 from 6 at Twickers despite scoring a total of 9 tries, then this is maybe irrelevant.

However I would feel much more confident of a Scotland win tomorrow if we were able to break our 12-year try drought!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the 7s players not play in the 6N?

I suspect a lot of the English women will be semi-pro in some regard, and they definintely have vastly more resources to choose from.

In Scotland we have one woman's league and a few Universities - I know people who only started playing rugby a year before becoming capped!

Nope - in the past they have, and then switched to 7s, but with the Olympics ahead I think the RFU have been keeping the 7s players apart to focus on that game.

Nope and yes - there's no such thing as "semi-pro" in women's rugby; who do you think would be paying for it? The ones without professional contracts have to hold down a job somewhere. There are more women players in England - but the setup is still amateur, and there are far fewer clubs with ladies' teams.

The playing field is a bit more level than you think.

To be fair though, instead of Morrison, Henderson and Daniellie we have Scott, Bennett and Seymour...

Gone are the days we played flair vaccum gym monkey in the centre. We have genuine attacking threats.

Not saying other teams haven't improved but certainly we have the best group of players since 1999.

A tight front row, powerful athletic locks, a combative backrow, creative halfbacks, centres with rugby brains and lethal strike runners.

If we play how we played against Oz and tighten up our defence I can see no reason why we cannot win tomorrow.

Poorfour wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the 7s players not play in the 6N?

I suspect a lot of the English women will be semi-pro in some regard, and they definintely have vastly more resources to choose from.

In Scotland we have one woman's league and a few Universities - I know people who only started playing rugby a year before becoming capped!

Nope - in the past they have, and then switched to 7s, but with the Olympics ahead I think the RFU have been keeping the 7s players apart to focus on that game.

Nope and yes - there's no such thing as "semi-pro" in women's rugby; who do you think would be paying for it? The ones without professional contracts have to hold down a job somewhere. There are more women players in England - but the setup is still amateur, and there are far fewer clubs with ladies' teams.

The playing field is a bit more level than you think.

Given the regular humpings the Scotland woman's team receives (I think they judge success in a 6N game by actually scoring some points!) and how well the England woman's team tend to do, there is a vast chasm of difference between the teams.

Regardless of whether they are all amateurs or not!

Poorfour wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the 7s players not play in the 6N?

I suspect a lot of the English women will be semi-pro in some regard, and they definintely have vastly more resources to choose from.

In Scotland we have one woman's league and a few Universities - I know people who only started playing rugby a year before becoming capped!

Nope - in the past they have, and then switched to 7s, but with the Olympics ahead I think the RFU have been keeping the 7s players apart to focus on that game.

Nope and yes - there's no such thing as "semi-pro" in women's rugby; who do you think would be paying for it? The ones without professional contracts have to hold down a job somewhere. There are more women players in England - but the setup is still amateur, and there are far fewer clubs with ladies' teams.

The playing field is a bit more level than you think.

Are a fair few of the England womens team not "shamateurs" ie their job is in "promoting rugby" or some such paid for by sponsers or the RFU?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To be fair though, instead of Morrison, Henderson and Daniellie we have Scott, Bennett and Seymour...

Gone are the days we played flair vaccum gym monkey in the centre. We have genuine attacking threats.

Not saying other teams haven't improved but certainly we have the best group of players since 1999.

A tight front row, powerful athletic locks, a combative backrow, creative halfbacks, centres with rugby brains and lethal strike runners.

If we play how we played against Oz and tighten up our defence I can see no reason why we cannot win tomorrow.

I hope you're right. As good as Dickinson is, however, it was lovely seeing Tom Smith providing the link pass in that try! Almost as good as his grubber kick for Paterson's try v Wales the year before.

I'd have him back in a heartbeat!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the 7s players not play in the 6N?

I suspect a lot of the English women will be semi-pro in some regard, and they definintely have vastly more resources to choose from.

In Scotland we have one woman's league and a few Universities - I know people who only started playing rugby a year before becoming capped!

Nope - in the past they have, and then switched to 7s, but with the Olympics ahead I think the RFU have been keeping the 7s players apart to focus on that game.

Nope and yes - there's no such thing as "semi-pro" in women's rugby; who do you think would be paying for it? The ones without professional contracts have to hold down a job somewhere. There are more women players in England - but the setup is still amateur, and there are far fewer clubs with ladies' teams.

The playing field is a bit more level than you think.

Given the regular humpings the Scotland woman's team receives (I think they judge success in a 6N game by actually scoring some points!) and how well the England woman's team tend to do, there is a vast chasm of difference between the teams.

Regardless of whether they are all amateurs or not!

Scotland women had their best over 6N campaign last year - they scored 27 points and only conceded 227!

The previous year they scored 5 points all championship. Before that 3 points.

At least they are improving!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I would actually quite like to say that it has been a pleasure debating this fixture, with the exception of a few obvious WUMS this thread has shed quite a bit of light on the match and the state of the England team which is sometimes covered quite incorrectly by the UK media.

The banter has been good and the vast majority of the posters knowledgeable. If only all the forum was like this!

Thanks guys

You stink!

Always apprehensive of playing yous away however this year, and especially if the Scots carry on from the rwc, England might be in for a torrid time. Altho for the first time in ages we have a good head coach who can give this Eng team a much needed boost. Here's a good game but an England win...

Interesting piece of analysis in the Guardian from Ryan http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/feb/05/owen-farrell-george-ford-england-scotland-six-nations

If it works good and well - but if England are going to kick all game it could easily backfire with Seymour and Hogg to run the ball back and IMO its more likely that Farrell will get man and ball everytime so will not have the opportunity to kick unless he sits very deep. Scotland are going to attack him I am sure

Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

TJ wrote:Interesting piece of analysis in the Guardian from Ryan http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/feb/05/owen-farrell-george-ford-england-scotland-six-nations

If it works good and well - but if England are going to kick all game it could easily backfire with Seymour and Hogg to run the ball back and IMO its more likely that Farrell will get man and ball everytime so will not have the opportunity to kick unless he sits very deep.  Scotland are going to attack him I am sure

I think Ford will have some say in that. He's also more of a tricky runner in his own right as well as a decent distributor. If the Scotland centers target Farrell they might find Ford exploiting any gaps. (Or Nowell coming inside looking for work)

I am not saying playing Farrell is not a concern, but this will be from the start and they will have trained this way in the build up. And Ford has been great at getting a lot out of the England backs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

Perhaps, but Burrell is a big old unit. I thought his physicallity in the middle freed up a lot of the space out wide that JJ, Watson, Brown and May all thrived on in the 6N.

I just thought he was poor last year especially in attack.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

Perhaps, but Burrell is a big old unit. I thought his physicallity in the middle freed up a lot of the space out wide that JJ, Watson, Brown and May all thrived on in the 6N.

The French were probably saying the same about Basteraud

Its going to be very interesting to see how this all works out. One thing from this Scotland fans perspective - I ain't scared of Farrell at 12, an elusive runner however would be very different

If England kick all game, Scotland will run it back all game

TJ wrote:
Are a fair few of the England womens team not "shamateurs" ie their job is in "promoting rugby" or some such paid for by sponsers or the RFU?

Not that I am aware of. A few of them may work for the the RFU as community coaches, and Maggie Alphonsi picks up the occasional pundit gig, but most of them have or had proper jobs - Katy McLean was a teacher, for instance, one was a vet and another was a farmer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11053391/England-Women-Rugby-World-Cup-winners-to-paid-to-play-RFU-announces.html

its the ones who work for the RFU I was thinking of

The only stats I can find say that in 2014 England had approx 10 times as many registers female players as Scotland - 8105 compared to 831.

Knowing the amateur game in Scotland as I do I wouldn't be surprised if the figure is actually much less - if a player plays for a University and a rugby club they are counted twice!

Madagascar and Sri Lanka had more players than Scotland FFS!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

Perhaps, but Burrell is a big old unit. I thought his physicallity in the middle freed up a lot of the space out wide that JJ, Watson, Brown and May all thrived on in the 6N.

In an odd call i've actually listed Farrell as one of the English players who could shine this 6n.
Yes hes a 10 and shouldn't be at 12 HOWEVER:

He has shown far improved running and creativity this season, he's 15st+ and aggressive (needs to ditch the stroppy kid behaviour though) and a very good kicker.

I might be completely and utterly wrong and he'll be shambolic, but I just think he might click and play well.

And im expecting to see Haskell, Billy and Robshaw doing ALOT of crash ball in to the backs which should free up space

Jones is very much the type of coach that will want the ball kept close to the pack, one or two passes at most, big forwards running off the receiver and making yards. It will not go wide until we have completely committed the majority of defenders and there is space for JJ and the back 3 to use.

I reckon if Scotland can get into us early they have a real chance. We have a new coach, a new captain, new things everywhere. They have a good World Cup with a more settled coach who seems to be resurrecting the old Scottish rucking game with a modern edge, and if they impose that on us from the first whistle our lads could have a very hard time getting anything going.

And of course it's Murrayfield at this time of year. We don't know whether we'll be building igloos, rescuing drowning nematodes, or dazzled by sunshine - all at the same time depending which part of the pitch you are on...

Veeeery interesting

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the regular humpings the Scotland woman's team receives

                                       

Oh come on, I've been dying to use that emoticon.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

Perhaps, but Burrell is a big old unit. I thought his physicallity in the middle freed up a lot of the space out wide that JJ, Watson, Brown and May all thrived on in the 6N.

In an odd call i've actually listed Farrell as one of the English players who could shine this 6n.
Yes hes a 10 and shouldn't be at 12 HOWEVER:

He has shown far improved running and creativity this season, he's 15st+ and aggressive (needs to ditch the stroppy kid behaviour though) and a very good kicker.

I might be completely and utterly wrong and he'll be shambolic, but I just think he might click and play well.

And im expecting to see Haskell, Billy and Robshaw doing ALOT of crash ball in to the backs which should free up space

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him do really well and I think that it will help him not having Farrell senior around.

I'm really excited about this match but hope that England don't get caught out by Scotland's pace, skill and passion. Hopefully England can keep hold of the ball, smash their way up field, smother any flair (!) and nick a win. I like the look of the England team and I think they could just about do that job.

I want to see Jonny Gray lowering the shoulder and making the hard yards with ball in hand. He has a wonderful habit, when an attack is getting a bit static and frustrating, of just calling for the ball and busting up five yards.

He doesn't so much break tackles as break tacklers, and he's a real joy to watch.

My question is how the Glasgow captaincy will have affected his play for Scotland. Will it mature him or give him more to think about?

stub wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

Perhaps, but Burrell is a big old unit. I thought his physicallity in the middle freed up a lot of the space out wide that JJ, Watson, Brown and May all thrived on in the 6N.

In an odd call i've actually listed Farrell as one of the English players who could shine this 6n.
Yes hes a 10 and shouldn't be at 12 HOWEVER:

He has shown far improved running and creativity this season, he's 15st+ and aggressive (needs to ditch the stroppy kid behaviour though) and a very good kicker.

I might be completely and utterly wrong and he'll be shambolic, but I just think he might click and play well.

And im expecting to see Haskell, Billy and Robshaw doing ALOT of crash ball in to the backs which should free up space

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him do really well and I think that it will help him not having Farrell senior around.

I'm really excited about this match but hope that England don't get caught out by Scotland's pace, skill and passion. Hopefully England can keep hold of the ball, smash their way up field, smother any flair (!) and nick a win. I like the look of the England team and I think they could just about do that job.

I've been quite pleased to hear the Scotland boy downplaying the whole passion/emotional side of things for this fixture, and simply focus on implementing our gameplan and skills. We need more of that. Simply throwing ourselves into the occasion won't be enough, and we need to be playing smart.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

stub wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell gives the option to kick from midfield (well) which we didn't have last year but also much better distribution than Burrell.

Perhaps, but Burrell is a big old unit. I thought his physicallity in the middle freed up a lot of the space out wide that JJ, Watson, Brown and May all thrived on in the 6N.

In an odd call i've actually listed Farrell as one of the English players who could shine this 6n.
Yes hes a 10 and shouldn't be at 12 HOWEVER:

He has shown far improved running and creativity this season, he's 15st+ and aggressive (needs to ditch the stroppy kid behaviour though) and a very good kicker.

I might be completely and utterly wrong and he'll be shambolic, but I just think he might click and play well.

And im expecting to see Haskell, Billy and Robshaw doing ALOT of crash ball in to the backs which should free up space

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him do really well and I think that it will help him not having Farrell senior around.

I'm really excited about this match but hope that England don't get caught out by Scotland's pace, skill and passion. Hopefully England can keep hold of the ball, smash their way up field, smother any flair (!) and nick a win. I like the look of the England team and I think they could just about do that job.

I've been quite pleased to hear the Scotland boy downplaying the whole passion/emotional side of things for this fixture, and simply focus on implementing our gameplan and skills. We need more of that. Simply throwing ourselves into the occasion won't be enough, and we need to be playing smart.

I agree that passion and emotion alone will not be enough but correctly focussed emotion allied to the pace, skill and intelligence that the Scottish team have will make them an even more dangerous proposition tomorrow.

It's pretty clear that EJ sees Farrell as more than capable of playing 12.

I think he said something along the lines of 'he will be a very good 12 for England', indicating to me that it's set in stone!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just thought he was poor last year especially in attack.

You see people keep saying this but then we were also the best attacking team in the comp, scored a lot of tries and made a lot of like breaks.

Burrells biggest issues were missing tackles that we expect a big guy to make and dropping the ball under no pressure.

It'll be interesting to see how Farrell goes, some thing tells me this England side will be no where near as dangerous in attack, but still effective enough to win.

And passing. And vision. I thought he was below par last 6Ns which is the reason I see Farrell in a better light than some, I don't think he can be as bad.

The one misfiring member of an otherwise excellent back line (barring the Ireland game where ford's kicking was horrible - in the absence of May's kick chase )

Good luck for tomorrow lads. If anyone is at the game and fancies some Pints PM me

yappysnap wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just thought he was poor last year especially in attack.

You see people keep saying this but then we were also the best attacking team in the comp, scored a lot of tries and made a lot of like breaks.

Burrells biggest issues were missing tackles that we expect a big guy to make and dropping the ball under no pressure.

It'll be interesting to see how Farrell goes, some thing tells me this England side will be no where near as dangerous in attack, but still effective enough to win.

One clear benefit which is of course very important is that Farrell is the best goal kicker England have.

Still, for me he fails on the All Blacks test (i.e. can a backline with Farrell at 12 be good enough to reach the top of the world game?).

My preferred centre combination would be Tuilagi/Joseph, with Slade an option on the bench to come on at 12 (either for Tuilagi or for Joseph with Tuilagi moving to 13). I think 10 is a straight choice between Ford, Farrell and Cipriani. I'd probably pick Ford. I appreciate that not all these options are available to Jones, but I would be heading in that direction. I don't see Farrell as prospering longer term in the 12 slot.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

My preferred centre combination would be Tuilagi/Joseph, with Slade an option on the bench to come on at 12 (either for Tuilagi or for Joseph with Tuilagi moving to 13). I think 10 is a straight choice between Ford, Farrell and Cipriani. I'd probably pick Ford. I appreciate that not all these options are available to Jones, but I would be heading in that direction. I don't see Farrell as prospering longer term in the 12 slot.

Very much hoping its just temporary and driven by circumstance.

It's not impossible that Slade will end up at 10 either

lostinwales wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

My preferred centre combination would be Tuilagi/Joseph, with Slade an option on the bench to come on at 12 (either for Tuilagi or for Joseph with Tuilagi moving to 13). I think 10 is a straight choice between Ford, Farrell and Cipriani. I'd probably pick Ford. I appreciate that not all these options are available to Jones, but I would be heading in that direction. I don't see Farrell as prospering longer term in the 12 slot.

Very much hoping its just temporary and driven by circumstance.

It's not impossible that Slade will end up at 10 either

I can't see past George Ford at 10. He's such a great talent and by far the most accomplished option in terms of running the creative side of the backline. It all comes down to how England want to play, but Jones already looks set to build the team around Ford. His ability to put his team mates into pace really worries me. He's such a quick thinker.

Aye - Ford has great potential. If like me you believe speed of thought and of action is the absolute key to top line rugby then Ford is the man for you

I think this season Farrell is the form 10, but Ford has class.  In years gone by (pre-Wilkinson) England would have died for such a player.

However I do worry about Farrell at 12, even if he is better there than Burrell.  It seems odd that if Farrell is the best 10 (this season), he is not playing at 10.

I'm glad other people rate Ford as much as I do, he seems to be coming in for some stick recently but he isn't doing THAT badly in a Bath team that as a collective isn't playing well. Ford is a once in a generation talent, we need to persevere with him rather than look elsewhere as soon as his form dips.

Fanster wrote:

I'm probably going to be the only guy on the planet who thinks Clifford is all potential but not sure if he can step up. He's still growing, and as he does that explosiveness he has will deteriorate, a bit like Marler when he first stepped up, he was a rampant prop who offered little on the international stage, he's had to work really hard to get where he is now, and Clifford may have to do the same.

It will be really interesting to see if Clifford does end up a starter. Whilst he may be a 7 this season Jones sees him as an 8 long-term, and we have some great options at 6 and 8. Surely this increasing competition must bode well for English backrow play though.

FT England women 32 - Scotland women 0

Cumbrian wrote:I'm glad other people rate Ford as much as I do, he seems to be coming in for some stick recently but he isn't doing THAT badly in a Bath team that as a collective isn't playing well. Ford is a once in a generation talent, we need to persevere with him rather than look elsewhere as soon as his form dips.

See I'd argue that both Farrell and Cipriani are once in a generation talents too. And both are playing better than Ford at the moment. But hopefully the fresh environment will restore Ford to his best.

FT Scotland under 20s 24 - England 6

4 tries to nil

Incredible!

Really amazing result for Scotland!

The headlines will inevitably concentrate on the try count, but what amazed me was the granite wall of their defence - absolutely nothing was getting through, despite England being camped on Scotland's line on countless occasions. The tackling was brutal, yet well timed and intelligent. Despite being utterly dominated in the scrum, the Scots themselves were utterly dominant at the breakdown, especially in the second half.

There are some very special players coming through for Scotland, not least Jamie Ritchie at 6, Blair Kinghorn at 15, Scott Cummings (what will he be like in a decade?) at lock and young Adam Hastings at 10 (son of Gavin). Happy times.

One player stood out for me for England U20s - Mat Protheroe the fullback was absolutely tireless, and frankly his team mates didn't deserve him. Chapeau.

Wasn't Protheroe expected to opt for a Wales cap over England after the U20s?

Real surprise result that. Luckily it means little. I hope.

yappysnap wrote:
Real surprise result that. Luckily it means little. I hope.

It means a huge amount for Scottish rugby - for long we have been whipping boys at this level. Men against boys.

Not only did we we win but we dominated in every area other than the scrum!

The hope is if we improve at youth level we'll be better set up at pro level going forward.

Why are England the favourites tomorrow? Is it simply because of history?

Jones has made such a dull and uninspired selection for his first match, and the trickle of complacency will no doubt feed into the English; whereas the Scots are at home, probably still angry at losing to Australia, and have a chance to make this their best Six Nations in a long time.

And the weather's not too grand.

5/2 that Scotland win?