Under achieving Welsh regions

First topic message reminder :

How very depressing Welsh domestic rugby is, every time they play away from home they are a winning bonus point,five try certainty for the home side, domestic rugby is on it's knees in Wales, over ten years of regionalism, and this is what we have to show for it, I'm sorry, but it is just not good enough.

Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys all out of Europe the group stages, Scarlets did not even win a game in Europe FFS. I can only imagine how far Dragons would get if they did not have half hearted French sides in their group, but no doubt normal service will resume when they play their next game away in the second tier comp.

The performances in the league are a joke as well, one team in the top six, this is poor, and I cannot see Scarlets hanging in there either, the regional concept is a joke, it is not working, the four Welsh regions are falling further and further behind every year.

I hope this is the lowest they will be, I really do, I hope next year the fact that players are not leaving will sway things, but how can they ? The same players will still be here next season, giving five tries away in Europe away from home, and scrapping it out in the league for the sixth spot, it is all very depressing, Welsh professional domestic rugby is a lame horse, if it were an animal it would be put out of it's misery by now.

It's time we were honest with ourselves, this regional experiment has failed, I do not see why we cannot go back to the clubs, and sort our own league out, we could not be any worst than we are now.

Cue the pro regional fans to come on here and start insulting me, but I do nt care anymore, I am so fed up with this whole debacle, it makes me wonder why I would even bother paying my money to watch this rubbish anymore.

LordDowlais wrote:4 post directed straight at me by mikey_dragon on the trot.

Notch has already red inked this thread. mikey, please do not spoil this thread as you have done to others.

Instead of constantly showing everyone how wrong I am, why cant you contribute something positive ?

I was playing catch up, as through the week I actually have to spend a lot of my time away from V2. If you can't understand that then it appears your ignorance doesn't stop at welsh rugby!

I'm not spoiling it, and if anything you're spoiling your own by continuing to ignore facts and post utter nonsense. If you don't want to be told this, then simply don't do it in the first place.

Well no, I believe that is part of the debate (which is a term I use very loosely when it comes to your threads/comments). As for contributing something positive, well it's pretty difficult given the state of Welsh rugby across the board, but for you to be telling someone else that is rather cheeky/hypocritical.

mikey_dragon wrote:but for you to be telling someone else that is rather cheeky/hypocritical.

I am not telling anyone anything. I am merely pointing out that the regions are under achieving, you disagree, fine, but there is no need to constantly go after me. 

There has already been another thread on this forum locked down because of your antics, lets not get another one locked down.

Christ on a bike, I was replying to this "why cant you contribute something positive ?" Excuse me? A lot of your comments are just daft so you actually have a few people disputing them.

No there hasn't. That could be seen as a libellous accusation.

And FYI I complained about this thread for more of your attacks on the Dragons so I actually hope it does get locked down. Seeing as your thread and stupid comments have brought on moderator intervention I'm surprised it's still going.

This is the thread you had locked with your antics:-

https://www.606v2.com/t61923-6-nations-where-does-each-team-stand

I have not attacked Dragons either. It just members like you who decide to make it personal like that.

Anyway, I am done bitching with you. I will talk about rugby thanks.

LordDowlais wrote:I am merely pointing out that the regions are under achieving, you disagree, fine, but there is no need to constantly go after me.

Dowlais, if that was all you were doing, there'd be no problem. The reason you're angering a lot of people on here is that you keep saying that the regions are happy that they're underachieving, even that they're aiming to underachieve (if that's not an impossibility). That's what people are objecting to - your assertion that the regions are happy to be where they are.

Really? I didn't get an inbox message stating that, hmmm. Another post bordering on libel with these accusations. Yes you did and you started it by laying in on the Dragons thread so that's a lie - I think you're quickly becoming the worst 'debater' on here with these BS posts, it's really doing my head in now.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am merely pointing out that the regions are under achieving, you disagree, fine, but there is no need to constantly go after me.

Dowlais, if that was all you were doing, there'd be no problem. The reason you're angering a lot of people on here is that you keep saying that the regions are happy that they're underachieving, even that they're aiming to underachieve (if that's not an impossibility). That's what people are objecting to - your assertion that the regions are happy to be where they are.

That and several other things.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, if that was all you were doing, there'd be no problem. The reason you're angering a lot of people on here is that you keep saying that the regions are happy that they're underachieving, even that they're aiming to underachieve (if that's not an impossibility). That's what people are objecting to - the idea that the regions are happy to be where they are.

LP, there are NO signs of improvement, Ospreys have gone from top four to bottom four, Dragons are constantly at the wrong end of the table, Cardiff Blues are imploding year on year, Scarlets have not won a game in Europe, and it is not the first time, yet there is nothing done about it. Nothing.

Why are there no questions being asked ? Why is this never spoken about in the media ? Where are the ex players showing their disgust ? 

Are we to just sit here and accept these performances ? The regions are answerable to nobody, that is the problem. If somebody is constantly failing at their job, then they need to explain what is going on to their superiors.

The reason why I think they are happy with where they are, is because they do not do anything to address these issues of failure. Not once have they come out and said sorry to the fans who pay their hard earned money to support them every week, we are expected to accept these performances, and the regions carry on with the status quo, because nobody does anything, and to top it all off, we have people like Andrew Hore who his hell bent on causing another war between the regions and the WRU, just after the regions won the last one and got almost everything they wanted, he is still harping on. 

The trouble in Wales is always the blame game, I know the WRU are far from perfect, and Roger Lewis was a nightmare, but the failings of the regions do not lie at the feet of the WRU, it's about time they stood up and accepted responsibility for their failings, and then did something to address the issues.

mikey_dragon wrote:Really? I didn't get an inbox message stating that, hmmm. Another post bordering on libel with these accusations. Yes you did and you started it by laying in on the Dragons thread so that's a lie - I think you're quickly becoming the worst 'debater' on here with these BS posts, it's really doing my head in now.

Well stay off them then.

Stay off what, the Dragons thread? No, that's where I discuss the team with real fans. Funny you're saying this now BTW, look what the opening post of this very thread said to you. Are you regurgitating again?

If the quality of coaching and players is the problem how would diluting that into more teams help? Granted in an all Welsh league you'd be guarateed to have a Welsh team finish first but not sure that counts as improvement!

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, if that was all you were doing, there'd be no problem. The reason you're angering a lot of people on here is that you keep saying that the regions are happy that they're underachieving, even that they're aiming to underachieve (if that's not an impossibility). That's what people are objecting to - the idea that the regions are happy to be where they are.

LP, there are NO signs of improvement, Ospreys have gone from top four to bottom four.

Only reason Ospreys are in 7th position is becasue they lost the majority of their team to World Cup duty. Theres no question that when Ospreys lose Paul James, Scott Baldwin, AWJ, King, Lydiate, Tipuric, Webb, Biggar and Matavesi they arn't the same team. I have no doubt that if there was no world cup the Ospreys would be comfortably sitting in the top 6 considering the amount of points we made when our internationals were back and beat the Scarlets at Parc Y Scarlets who sit in top position (funnily enough a position they weren't at last year, funny that)

Also, you state we've gone backwards but last year in the European championship, we finished with 8 points. This year we acheived double that in a group that included last years finalists. We were also unbeaten at home. That's called progress mate but if you want to exaggerate, thats up to you but you might want to check facts first.

I think a bit of perspective is required, if possible.

The Ospreys although well beaten in the end by Exeter were VERY close to getting into the quarters & performed admirably in the pool stages.
If they had qualified & it's not that big an if, there wouldn't be any of these sort of conversations & there would be continued praise for Tandy no doubt.

Ospreys Last Season in Europe
Home - W1, D1, L1
Away - W0 D 0 L3

Ospreys this season in Europe (against teams that are, in their respective leagues) 2nd Exeter, 5th Bordeaux-Begles and 3rd ASM, who rememberhave been in the FINAL, SEMI-FINAL & FINAL the past 3 seasons)
Home W3, D0, L0
Away - W0 D 0 L3

PRO 12 this season (in 7th so far so NOT in the bottom 4) as TRUE RAVEN has stated the team lost many to the RWC

World Cup
L, L, L, W, L, L

Post World Cup
W, W, W, W, W, L

So, it is not as doom and gloom as can be made out. However, are we happy about it ? Absolutely, definitely, positively, irrefutably - NO  

Thing is though PenfroPete, the only way the Ospreys are going to get better is to get rid of the average players in the team and replace them with better quality. With JD2 going to the Scarlets, Leugh Halfpenny staying at Toulon, Charteris going to Bath, North renewing his contract at Northampton, there are no quality welsh qualified players who can improve the squad so we need to recruit quality NWQ players like Engelbrecht to improve the quality of the squad.

However, no doubt if that happened, LD would go on a whinge about how the Ospreys are not playing enough WQ players blah blah blah blah blah. You cant have it both ways and expect the regions to play mainly WQ players if you want them to compete with the best. You need quality NWQ's to carry the team also when the Ospreys lose a ton of players to international duty.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, if that was all you were doing, there'd be no problem. The reason you're angering a lot of people on here is that you keep saying that the regions are happy that they're underachieving, even that they're aiming to underachieve (if that's not an impossibility). That's what people are objecting to - the idea that the regions are happy to be where they are.

LP, there are NO signs of improvement, Ospreys have gone from top four to bottom four, Dragons are constantly at the wrong end of the table, Cardiff Blues are imploding year on year, Scarlets have not won a game in Europe, and it is not the first time, yet there is nothing done about it. Nothing.

Why are there no questions being asked ? Why is this never spoken about in the media ? Where are the ex players showing their disgust ? 

Are we to just sit here and accept these performances ? The regions are answerable to nobody, that is the problem. If somebody is constantly failing at their job, then they need to explain what is going on to their superiors.

The reason why I think they are happy with where they are, is because they do not do anything to address these issues of failure. Not once have they come out and said sorry to the fans who pay their hard earned money to support them every week, we are expected to accept these performances, and the regions carry on with the status quo, because nobody does anything, and to top it all off, we have people like Andrew Hore who his hell bent on causing another war between the regions and the WRU, just after the regions won the last one and got almost everything they wanted, he is still harping on. 

The trouble in Wales is always the blame game, I know the WRU are far from perfect, and Roger Lewis was a nightmare, but the failings of the regions do not lie at the feet of the WRU, it's about time they stood up and accepted responsibility for their failings, and then did something to address the issues.

Everything you've said above that I've highlighted is untrue.

True Raven wrote:Thing is though PenfroPete, the only way the Ospreys are going to get better is to get rid of the average players in the team and replace them with better quality.  With JD2 going to the Scarlets, Leugh Halfpenny staying at Toulon, Charteris going to Bath, North renewing his contract at Northampton, there are no quality welsh qualified players who can improve the squad so we need to recruit quality NWQ players like Engelbrecht to improve the quality of the squad.  

However, no doubt if that happened, LD would go on a whinge about how the Ospreys are not playing enough WQ players blah blah blah blah blah.  You cant have it both ways and expect the regions to play mainly WQ players if you want them to compete with the best.  You need quality NWQ's to carry the team also when the Ospreys lose a ton of players to international duty.

Which is why, as well as smartly recruiting NWQ players, we must seek to improve the Welsh premiership. I think the regions academies are doing their jobs. They are bringing the boys through. This is evidenced by us being relatively competitive in recent years against the big boys at u20's (Eng, SA, NZ etc).

The issue is the step up from 20's to seniors is massive. Unless you are a freak of nature like George North or Jamie Roberts. We need to give these boys who are not ready to step up immediatly as high a standard as possible. I honestly think a WP league based in the summer between 8 clubs (not ringfenced, bottom team goes down to championship) could be a rugby and (relatively) commercial success and could become like the NZ NPC.

BTbm,I'm happy to agree to disagree.The coaching malaise at the O's goes back several seasons.It is only because so many players have given of their best,and more,that the O's have got the results that they have.But the Pro 12 is not the EPCR and there the O's have been found out.They have been,still are,and hopefully will remain the best Region but unless the coaching regime improves they will not achieve the success they should have.Why would it be unreasonable to expect the coaching talent of a Gregor Townsend,Rob Baxter or Conor O'Shea,Pat Lam,to name but a few who have transformed their club sides? I know it's not easy as Foley and Cullen have found at Munster/Leinster but focusing on the players alone without attention to the coaching is the road to ongoing depression.

Gavin dragon I agree, our under 18s beat England, Ireland and France Las year and drew in south Africa with their schools. We've got talent coming through but there shouldn't be an over reliance on them at a young age. Owen watkin has talent but at 19 needs to be nurtured and not overplayed and needs someone at a high level to learn off and not spratt. Were lucky that at the ospreys our second rows can learn off the best but you need the experienced quality throughout the squad for the young guys to learn from

mikey_dragon wrote:Stay off what, the Dragons thread? No, that's where I discuss the team with real fans. Funny you're saying this now BTW, look what the opening post of this very thread said to you. Are you regurgitating again?

Thanks for drawing me back in again Mikey

Sorry to lump you all in together, but 4 excellent posts from Penfro Pete, Trevsbigmac and 2 from True Raven between 1.26 and 2.01 this afternoon, I go to the dentist expecting the worst, which as it turned out was an excellent decision, and I returned to see those 4 posts and also an intelligent response by Luckless. Well done to all.

exile jack wrote:BTbm,I'm happy to agree to disagree.The coaching malaise at the O's goes back several seasons.It is only because so many players have given of their best,and more,that the O's have got the results that they have.But the Pro 12 is not the EPCR and there the O's have been found out.They have been,still are,and hopefully will remain the best Region but unless the coaching regime improves they will not achieve the success they should have.Why would it be unreasonable to expect the coaching talent of a Gregor Townsend,Rob Baxter or Conor O'Shea,Pat Lam,to name but a few who have transformed their club sides? I know it's not easy as Foley and Cullen have found at Munster/Leinster but focusing on the players alone without attention to the coaching is the road to ongoing depression.

I'm not saying Steve Tandy is the greatest coach in the world but he took over a mess left by Scott Johnson and won the league that season. Our budget drastically reduced and we lost stars such as Jerry Collins, Shane williams, Tommy Bowie, Adam Jones, Lee Byrne etc yet he managed to steady the ship during that time, where most feared the worst. Last season nearly everyone predicted we would be the worst region yet he took a young Ospreys team to the top four last season where they led for long periods until the six nations when the internationals went. The examples you give are incredibly flawed, Sunday ended in bitter disappointment but Ospreys ended up with the same points as a rob Baxter coached team and also beat them this year, Gregor Townsend despite a bigger budget and the majority of the Scottish team have come no where near qualifying from the group and Conor o Shea failed to lead his harlequins team into the champions cup last year. As someone mentioned if Ospreys had got one point on Sunday, Steve Tandy would have been lauded for getting the best out of a small budget.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So going back to the clubs would achieve what?  How many European competitions did the our clubs win exactly?

One?

Have they?  last time I looked I am pretty sure the record books show that the Cardiff Blues which are classed as a Region by the Union won not Cardiff RFC.

Yep.

When exactly then?  As I pointed out the record books show the Cardiff Blues won not Cardiff RFC.

Cardiff Blues in 1995 according to this in the club section. Confusing isn't it?....

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/cardiff_blues.php?section=4

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So going back to the clubs would achieve what?  How many European competitions did the our clubs win exactly?

One?

Have they?  last time I looked I am pretty sure the record books show that the Cardiff Blues which are classed as a Region by the Union won not Cardiff RFC.

Yep.

When exactly then?  As I pointed out the record books show the Cardiff Blues won not Cardiff RFC.

He's winding you up Beds. I wouldn't take it so seriously if I were you. I go down to Cardiff almost every other weekend to watch them, they have never seen themselves as being part of a wider geographical area than Cardiff. In all fairness they did pay for that privilege. Look on the bright side, at least you only have to put up with it on here.

TR,the coaching team at the O's doesn't have a small budget.They have a large professional rugby playing staff including many players of international standard and a few amongst the best players in Europe if not the world.If you believe the coaches at the O's have got the best out of those players I admire your conviction but I don't share it.The few coaches I listed have all taken their squads and improved them.I can see little sign of lessons learned and continuous improvement at the Liberty.It is interesting to note how much discussion there is over international team coaching but so little over it at the Regional.If the O's supporters are content with the current coaching set up that's their paying choice,but for me the O's are failing to realise their potential and that is not solely or primarily the fault of the players.There is much more to this than just the result on Sunday but how many Exeter players would you pick for the O's prior to the game.Not many I guess.

The game against Exeter was one game.....it's not the first game we lost and won't be the last. Tandy took over when we had lost to Biarritz 36-5 and won 8 out of his first 10 games including a final against Leinster (who were European champions). How is that not taken over a squad and improved them? Our budget is small though compared to other countries bar Italy and there was a drastic cost cutting scenario at the Ospreys a few years back. You say that the Ospreys have some of the best players in Europe but does Steve Tandy not get any credit in developing them? Scott Johnson thought Rhys Webb was too fat too play rugby yet Tandy gave him that opportunity, tipiuric, arhip, ardron, King, hassler, Baldwin are names of players that have developed under his tutelage, some of those have come from semi-pro rugby. Our back play has been poor this year, I'll admit that, but at the back end of last season we were on fire. Continuity and good recruitment is the way forward not having to rebuild all over again. Hopefully Rhys Webb coming back, a fit hassler on the wing and jj engelbrecht in the centre will bring some more exciting back play

True Raven wrote:

exile jack wrote:BTbm,I'm happy to agree to disagree.The coaching malaise at the O's goes back several seasons.It is only because so many players have given of their best,and more,that the O's have got the results that they have.But the Pro 12 is not the EPCR and there the O's have been found out.They have been,still are,and hopefully will remain the best Region but unless the coaching regime improves they will not achieve the success they should have.Why would it be unreasonable to expect the coaching talent of a Gregor Townsend,Rob Baxter or Conor O'Shea,Pat Lam,to name but a few who have transformed their club sides? I know it's not easy as Foley and Cullen have found at Munster/Leinster but focusing on the players alone without attention to the coaching is the road to ongoing depression.

I'm not saying Steve Tandy is the greatest coach in the world but he took over a mess left by Scott Johnson and won the league that season.  Our budget drastically reduced and we lost stars such as Jerry Collins, Shane williams, Tommy Bowie, Adam Jones, Lee Byrne etc yet he managed to steady the ship during that time, where most feared the worst.  Last season nearly everyone predicted we would be the worst region yet he took a young Ospreys team to the top four last season where they led for long periods until the six nations when the internationals went.  The examples you give are incredibly flawed, Sunday ended in bitter disappointment but Ospreys ended up with the same points as a rob Baxter coached team and also beat them this year, Gregor Townsend despite a bigger budget and the majority of the Scottish team have come no where near qualifying from the group and Conor o Shea failed to lead his harlequins team into the champions cup last year.  As someone mentioned if Ospreys had got one point on Sunday, Steve Tandy would have been lauded for getting the best out of a small budget.  

Wouldn't you have finished second in your group? Not so sure Tandy would be lauded for that. I know I wouldn't be. He was a jobs for the boys appointment and it's well known I'm not a fan of those.

wayne wrote:Sorry to lump you all in together, but 4 excellent posts from Penfro Pete, Trevsbigmac and 2 from True Raven between 1.26 and 2.01 this afternoon, I go to the dentist expecting the worst, which as it turned out was an excellent decision, and I returned to see those 4 posts and also an intelligent response by Luckless. Well done to all.

You can add old mikey over yer to that list - you won't get a more honest and knowledgeable poster than him!

mikey_dragon wrote:

True Raven wrote:

exile jack wrote:BTbm,I'm happy to agree to disagree.The coaching malaise at the O's goes back several seasons.It is only because so many players have given of their best,and more,that the O's have got the results that they have.But the Pro 12 is not the EPCR and there the O's have been found out.They have been,still are,and hopefully will remain the best Region but unless the coaching regime improves they will not achieve the success they should have.Why would it be unreasonable to expect the coaching talent of a Gregor Townsend,Rob Baxter or Conor O'Shea,Pat Lam,to name but a few who have transformed their club sides? I know it's not easy as Foley and Cullen have found at Munster/Leinster but focusing on the players alone without attention to the coaching is the road to ongoing depression.

I'm not saying Steve Tandy is the greatest coach in the world but he took over a mess left by Scott Johnson and won the league that season.  Our budget drastically reduced and we lost stars such as Jerry Collins, Shane williams, Tommy Bowie, Adam Jones, Lee Byrne etc yet he managed to steady the ship during that time, where most feared the worst.  Last season nearly everyone predicted we would be the worst region yet he took a young Ospreys team to the top four last season where they led for long periods until the six nations when the internationals went.  The examples you give are incredibly flawed, Sunday ended in bitter disappointment but Ospreys ended up with the same points as a rob Baxter coached team and also beat them this year, Gregor Townsend despite a bigger budget and the majority of the Scottish team have come no where near qualifying from the group and Conor o Shea failed to lead his harlequins team into the champions cup last year.  As someone mentioned if Ospreys had got one point on Sunday, Steve Tandy would have been lauded for getting the best out of a small budget.  

Wouldn't you have finished second in your group? Not so sure Tandy would be lauded for that. I know I wouldn't be. He was a jobs for the boys appointment and it's well known I'm not a fan of those.

No Mikey we were on 16 with the other 2 and if we had had a BP we would have topped the group

Leinster lost their first home match in the competition since September 2008 as the Ospreys struck for two telling first half tries to win the final at the RDS.
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/2310.php#70sSbPdO8JMfK1MM.99

Shane Williams scored a sensational late double in his final club game and Dan Biggar added a touchline conversion to hand the Ospreys the RaboDirect PRO12 title with a 31-30 win over Leinster at the RDS.
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/2246.php#ML0QmC9gMC7afiqu.99

mikey_dragon wrote:

True Raven wrote:

exile jack wrote:BTbm,I'm happy to agree to disagree.The coaching malaise at the O's goes back several seasons.It is only because so many players have given of their best,and more,that the O's have got the results that they have.But the Pro 12 is not the EPCR and there the O's have been found out.They have been,still are,and hopefully will remain the best Region but unless the coaching regime improves they will not achieve the success they should have.Why would it be unreasonable to expect the coaching talent of a Gregor Townsend,Rob Baxter or Conor O'Shea,Pat Lam,to name but a few who have transformed their club sides? I know it's not easy as Foley and Cullen have found at Munster/Leinster but focusing on the players alone without attention to the coaching is the road to ongoing depression.

I'm not saying Steve Tandy is the greatest coach in the world but he took over a mess left by Scott Johnson and won the league that season.  Our budget drastically reduced and we lost stars such as Jerry Collins, Shane williams, Tommy Bowie, Adam Jones, Lee Byrne etc yet he managed to steady the ship during that time, where most feared the worst.  Last season nearly everyone predicted we would be the worst region yet he took a young Ospreys team to the top four last season where they led for long periods until the six nations when the internationals went.  The examples you give are incredibly flawed, Sunday ended in bitter disappointment but Ospreys ended up with the same points as a rob Baxter coached team and also beat them this year, Gregor Townsend despite a bigger budget and the majority of the Scottish team have come no where near qualifying from the group and Conor o Shea failed to lead his harlequins team into the champions cup last year.  As someone mentioned if Ospreys had got one point on Sunday, Steve Tandy would have been lauded for getting the best out of a small budget.  

Wouldn't you have finished second in your group? Not so sure Tandy would be lauded for that. I know I wouldn't be. He was a jobs for the boys appointment and it's well known I'm not a fan of those.

No, Ospreys would have had 17 points and Exeter and Bordeaux finished with 16.

Maybe but he cut his teeth with Bridgend and won the league title in his first season with the Ospreys. He earned a shot at managing the Ospreys and had to rebuild the squad almost from scratch and his league positions have been 2nd (winners in grand final), 5th, 5th, and 3rd last year (lost in semi) which is not a bad record considering the might of the Irish over that period and the downturn in finances for the Welsh regions.

mikey_dragon wrote:

wayne wrote:Sorry to lump you all in together, but 4 excellent posts from Penfro Pete, Trevsbigmac and 2 from True Raven between 1.26 and 2.01 this afternoon, I go to the dentist expecting the worst, which as it turned out was an excellent decision, and I returned to see those 4 posts and also an intelligent response by Luckless. Well done to all.

You can add old mikey over yer to that list - you won't get a more honest and knowledgeable poster than him!

Honest and Knowledgeable Poster, after the man sausage up you just showed

True Raven wrote:The game against Exeter was one game.....it's not the first game we lost and won't be the last.  Tandy took over when we had lost to Biarritz 36-5 and won 8 out of his first 10 games including a final against Leinster (who were European champions).  How is that not taken over a squad and improved them?  Our budget is small though compared to other countries bar Italy and there was a drastic cost cutting scenario at the Ospreys a few years back.  You say that the Ospreys have some of the best players in Europe but does Steve Tandy not get any credit in developing them?  Scott Johnson thought Rhys Webb was too fat too play rugby yet Tandy gave him that opportunity, tipiuric, arhip, ardron, King, hassler, Baldwin are names of players that have developed under his tutelage, some of those have come from semi-pro rugby.  Our back play has been poor this year, I'll admit that, but at the back end of last season we were on fire.  Continuity and good recruitment is the way forward not having to rebuild all over again. Hopefully Rhys Webb coming back, a fit hassler on the wing and jj engelbrecht in the centre will bring some more exciting back play

Which ones did he develop exactly? I'm pretty sure it wasn't AWJ and Biggar who are without a doubt the best in Europe. If Webb was fat at first then perhaps he was told to go away and get fitter, rather than shown the door as you seem to be insinuating.

True Raven wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

True Raven wrote:

exile jack wrote:BTbm,I'm happy to agree to disagree.The coaching malaise at the O's goes back several seasons.It is only because so many players have given of their best,and more,that the O's have got the results that they have.But the Pro 12 is not the EPCR and there the O's have been found out.They have been,still are,and hopefully will remain the best Region but unless the coaching regime improves they will not achieve the success they should have.Why would it be unreasonable to expect the coaching talent of a Gregor Townsend,Rob Baxter or Conor O'Shea,Pat Lam,to name but a few who have transformed their club sides? I know it's not easy as Foley and Cullen have found at Munster/Leinster but focusing on the players alone without attention to the coaching is the road to ongoing depression.

I'm not saying Steve Tandy is the greatest coach in the world but he took over a mess left by Scott Johnson and won the league that season.  Our budget drastically reduced and we lost stars such as Jerry Collins, Shane williams, Tommy Bowie, Adam Jones, Lee Byrne etc yet he managed to steady the ship during that time, where most feared the worst.  Last season nearly everyone predicted we would be the worst region yet he took a young Ospreys team to the top four last season where they led for long periods until the six nations when the internationals went.  The examples you give are incredibly flawed, Sunday ended in bitter disappointment but Ospreys ended up with the same points as a rob Baxter coached team and also beat them this year, Gregor Townsend despite a bigger budget and the majority of the Scottish team have come no where near qualifying from the group and Conor o Shea failed to lead his harlequins team into the champions cup last year.  As someone mentioned if Ospreys had got one point on Sunday, Steve Tandy would have been lauded for getting the best out of a small budget.  

Wouldn't you have finished second in your group? Not so sure Tandy would be lauded for that. I know I wouldn't be. He was a jobs for the boys appointment and it's well known I'm not a fan of those.

No, Ospreys would have had 17 points and Exeter and Bordeaux finished with 16.

Maybe but he cut his teeth with Bridgend and won the league title in his first season with the Ospreys.  He earned a shot at managing the Ospreys and had to rebuild the squad almost from scratch and his league positions have been 2nd (winners in grand final), 5th, 5th, and 3rd last year (lost in semi) which is not a bad record considering the might of the Irish over that period and the downturn in finances for the Welsh regions.

Ah so therefore, topping the group. I was asking the question btw. If he took on the team towards the end of the year then I'm not so sure he can be afforded that much credit. They did do well the season most of us expected them to do the worst, but the team has also got gradually worse in Europe each year (this year they've propped back up a bit). I think you heap too much praise on Tandy, I just don't rate the guy. The only head coaches in Wales I rate are Pivac and Wilson.

I will say to be fair to Tandy he is very young, he only turned 36 a few days ago.

Tipiuric and Webb. Scott Johnson didn't rate Webb at all, thought he wouldn't make it as a nine. Webb couldn't buy a game under Johnson with Phillips, Nutbrown and Fotuaili there until Steve Tandy gave him the reigns after kahn had left and flourished under him

"In the next couple of days, we'll make some announcements" - Cardiff Blues coach Danny Wilson on player recruitment.

https://twitter.com/BBCWalesSport/status/692044590652755969

TR,i admit to not understanding how precisely the O's choose new players and who in the coaching team has the final or any say.I think we can all agree the successes and relative failures of those choices and the unfortunate injuries that key players have had.My point is not focused on selection per se but even hardened O's supporters have been bemused by some team selections.I don't think many sports now work on the basis of past success(real or illusory)as a guarantee of current /future success,and unlike Wendyball the rugby boys are 1 injury from retirement.That is why coaching of the highest standard is necessary to ensure the best return from the playing resources.If you believe that is the situation at the O's I respect your belief.It's just something I don't believe which is why I find the O's situation so depressing.There have just been too many false dawns and a belief that something better is just around the corner.Glorious failure is precisely that although I note that WOL Rugby awarded the O's 8 out of 10 for their EPCR cup campaign.That I find depressing.

exile jack, in my view the Ospreys did have a good European campaign it just ended on a real sour note because we aren't the finished article, we have a lot of young guys in the team and in one year doubled our total points in Europe. Thankfully the NDC means we get to keep stars like Webb, bigger and AWJ which means that we can compete at home against anyone and compete on a pro12 level but we need some good recruitment and more development in the young players over the next couple of years for this team to reach its peak. I think people look at the Ospreys and see Webb, tipuric, bigger and awj and think we're a superb team but the reality is the squad depth is poor and this shows up throughout the season.

True Raven wrote:exile jack, in my view the Ospreys did have a good European campaign it just ended on a real sour note because we aren't the finished article, we have a lot of young guys in the team and in one year doubled our total points in Europe.  Thankfully the NDC means we get to keep stars like Webb, bigger and AWJ which means that we can compete at home against anyone and compete on a pro12 level but we need some good recruitment and more development in the young players over the next couple of years for this team to reach its peak.  I think people look at the Ospreys and see Webb, tipuric, bigger and awj and think we're a superb team but the reality is the squad depth is poor and this shows up throughout the season.  

Dai Young used to say that a lot then naffed off to WASPs cos he'd had enough I think.
Not sure what NDCs mean. Maybe those players will have more team Wales rest time, maybe?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So going back to the clubs would achieve what?  How many European competitions did the our clubs win exactly?

One?

Have they?  last time I looked I am pretty sure the record books show that the Cardiff Blues which are classed as a Region by the Union won not Cardiff RFC.

Yep.

When exactly then?  As I pointed out the record books show the Cardiff Blues won not Cardiff RFC.

Cardiff Blues in 1995 according to this in the club section. Confusing isn't it?....

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/cardiff_blues.php?section=4

I see the confusion here Dave. It's you. YOU'RE confused! Bedford is talking about WINNERS. You didn't win it in '95. Toulouse did.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

True Raven wrote:exile jack, in my view the Ospreys did have a good European campaign it just ended on a real sour note because we aren't the finished article, we have a lot of young guys in the team and in one year doubled our total points in Europe.  Thankfully the NDC means we get to keep stars like Webb, bigger and AWJ which means that we can compete at home against anyone and compete on a pro12 level but we need some good recruitment and more development in the young players over the next couple of years for this team to reach its peak.  I think people look at the Ospreys and see Webb, tipuric, bigger and awj and think we're a superb team but the reality is the squad depth is poor and this shows up throughout the season.  

Not sure what NDCs mean. Maybe those players will have more team Wales rest time, maybe?

Probably but at least they're still at the Ospreys and not playing for Toulon

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So going back to the clubs would achieve what?  How many European competitions did the our clubs win exactly?

One?

Have they?  last time I looked I am pretty sure the record books show that the Cardiff Blues which are classed as a Region by the Union won not Cardiff RFC.

Yep.

When exactly then?  As I pointed out the record books show the Cardiff Blues won not Cardiff RFC.

Cardiff Blues in 1995 according to this in the club section. Confusing isn't it?....

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/cardiff_blues.php?section=4

I see the confusion here Dave. It's you. YOU'RE confused! Bedford is talking about WINNERS. You didn't win it in '95. Toulouse did.

Toulouse certainly did win. Notice anything odd about the table? It's Cardiff Blues history, 1995 - 2016. Mad isn't it?

exile jack wrote:TR,the coaching team at the O's doesn't have a small budget.They have a large professional rugby playing staff including many players of international standard and a few amongst the best players in Europe if not the world.If you believe the coaches at the O's have got the best out of those players I admire your conviction but I don't share it.The few coaches I listed have all taken their squads and improved them.I can see little sign of lessons learned and continuous improvement at the Liberty.It is interesting to note how much discussion there is over international team coaching but so little over it at the Regional.If the O's supporters are content with the current coaching set up that's their paying choice,but for me the O's are failing to realise their potential and that is not solely or primarily the fault of the players.There is much more to this than just the result on Sunday but how many Exeter players would you pick for the O's prior to the game.Not many I guess.

Might be time to lay off the crack for a bit

TR,thanks for this.If we all held the same opinions life would be boring.I really do hope the O's qualify for the EPCR next year because the guys you mention shouldn't be in the EPCC.Best wishes for the rest of the season.