Under achieving Welsh regions

First topic message reminder :

How very depressing Welsh domestic rugby is, every time they play away from home they are a winning bonus point,five try certainty for the home side, domestic rugby is on it's knees in Wales, over ten years of regionalism, and this is what we have to show for it, I'm sorry, but it is just not good enough.

Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys all out of Europe the group stages, Scarlets did not even win a game in Europe FFS. I can only imagine how far Dragons would get if they did not have half hearted French sides in their group, but no doubt normal service will resume when they play their next game away in the second tier comp.

The performances in the league are a joke as well, one team in the top six, this is poor, and I cannot see Scarlets hanging in there either, the regional concept is a joke, it is not working, the four Welsh regions are falling further and further behind every year.

I hope this is the lowest they will be, I really do, I hope next year the fact that players are not leaving will sway things, but how can they ? The same players will still be here next season, giving five tries away in Europe away from home, and scrapping it out in the league for the sixth spot, it is all very depressing, Welsh professional domestic rugby is a lame horse, if it were an animal it would be put out of it's misery by now.

It's time we were honest with ourselves, this regional experiment has failed, I do not see why we cannot go back to the clubs, and sort our own league out, we could not be any worst than we are now.

Cue the pro regional fans to come on here and start insulting me, but I do nt care anymore, I am so fed up with this whole debacle, it makes me wonder why I would even bother paying my money to watch this rubbish anymore.

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, if I am spouting rubbish, being an hypocrite, being arrogant, and what ever else I have had slung at me, then you tell me, do you think that the regions performance have warranted praise this season ?

Do you all think that going away from home and conceding 4 to 5 try's in every fixture is acceptable ?

Do you think having only one team in the top six of the league is acceptable ?

Do you accept your team being constantly at the wrong end of the table ?

I do not think any of those situations are acceptable, but obviously there are members on here who do. I am sorry, but that is how I feel, and I do not care what anybody on here thinks about that. Domestic Welsh rugby is at its lowest I can remember, I am fed up with mediocrity, why should I be tarred and feathered for thinking like this ?

No (in most instances).

No.

No.

No.

FYI, closed questions usually get one word answers. This seems to be straying away from what you originally wrote - you also did this via a recent rant on the dragons thread. You're not being mobbed at all, you're having people tell you how ridiculous and ill informed your views are based on a fair few comments, it's happened more than once this weekend alone.

Again I'll ask, who thinks this is acceptable?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Ah, Martyn Williams missed an earlier one (3rd kick). Why on earth was he so high up the kicking order?! Or had they gone round twice by that stage???

Ewe haven't watched it have ewe?

I jumped forward and missed all of the juicy bits!

So what are you arguing with me about then ? Is it because I haven't heaped any praise on Dragons for getting out of their group in Europe ?

If they go on and beat Gloucester then they will get my praise, but I will not praise them for getting out of a group where half the teams fielded second string sides, sorry.

So you will have to tell me what you are arguing about, because looking at your las post it would seem you agree with me.

Like I said, what you're saying now seems to an extent to be moving away from what you've previously said, as previously you were ranting by insulting teams and their players. It started on the Dragons thread where you spent a good few hours doing it. Even after you had some hypocrisies pointed out you still continued rather than admit what you said was wrong. And no you're actually the last person I would expect to heap praise on the Dragons. You really do have some personal issues with us, don't you?

If you expect me to rant then I won't, however if I can be bothered when asked to I will give what I think is an accurate description of the current state of welsh rugby without being disingenuous and ill informed. But you merely asked some simple questions, so I gave simple answers.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, if I am spouting rubbish, being an hypocrite, being arrogant, and what ever else I have had slung at me, then you tell me, do you think that the regions performance have warranted praise this season ?

Do you all think that going away from home and conceding 4 to 5 try's in every fixture is acceptable ?

Do you think having only one team in the top six of the league is acceptable ?

Do you accept your team being constantly at the wrong end of the table ?

I do not think any of those situations are acceptable, but obviously there are members on here who do. I am sorry, but that is how I feel, and I do not care what anybody on here thinks about that. Domestic Welsh rugby is at its lowest I can remember, I am fed up with mediocrity, why should I be tarred and feathered for thinking like this ?

No (in most instances).

No.

No.

No.

FYI, closed questions usually get one word answers. This seems to be straying away from what you originally wrote - you also did this via a recent rant on the dragons thread. You're not being mobbed at all, you're having people tell you how ridiculous and ill informed your views are based on a fair few comments, it's happened more than once this weekend alone.

Again I'll ask, who thinks this is acceptable?

Lord 1st question, we also scored 4 tries in 2 of our away matches
       2nd question, it is only halfway through the season, if it is the same at the end No
       3rd question, there are serious extenuating circumstances for the Dragons to overcome, I presume it is them you are asking this question to
Let me just add in another post you said that the Ospreys had deteriorated in the 10 years of Regional Rugby, let me just say Regional Rugby has been going for longer than 10 years.
Just to show you are wrong in the 2005/6 season we played 2 French teams and an English team in the Pool stages of the HC, we won 2 of our home games lost the other and lost all 3 of our away games, without any bonus points and were well out of the running to qualify for the QF well before the final pool game, and to add we did not finish in the top 2 in that seasons Celtic League, so yes we have improved in your 10 year time scale.

LordDowlais wrote:So what are you arguing with me about then ? Is it because I haven't heaped any praise on Dragons for getting out of their group in Europe ?

If they go on and beat Gloucester then they will get my praise, but I will not praise them for getting out of a group where half the teams fielded second string sides, sorry.

So you will have to tell me what you are arguing about, because looking at your las post it would seem you agree with me.

Chewed 'em up, spat 'em out. Easy peasy. A joy to watch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhQfu1ivJyM

wayne wrote:
Lord 1st question, we also scored 4 tries in 2 of our away matches
       2nd question, it is only halfway through the season, if it is the same at the end No
       3rd question, there are serious extenuating circumstances for the Dragons to overcome, I presume it is them you are asking this question to
Let me just add in another post you said that the Ospreys had deteriorated in the 10 years of Regional Rugby, let me just say Regional Rugby has been going for longer than 10 years.
Just to show you are wrong in the 2005/6 season we played 2 French teams and an English team in the Pool stages of the HC, we won 2 of our home games lost the other and lost all 3 of our away games, without any bonus points and were well out of the running to qualify for the QF well before the final pool game, and to add we did not finish in the top 2 in that seasons Celtic League, so yes we have improved in your 10 year time scale.

Ospreys did well in their group. For Clermont not to get out proves how hard it was. That he doesn't even acknowledge that, in his initial post says it all.

It's also easy to say the French and English don't care about the challenge cup, but then why did Dragons face players like Conrad Smith and Colin Slade? No win in France should be sniffed at. That's just highly ignorant. Plus, considering we won in Pau without five of our first choice backs, it's daft to suggest it's not a good achievement getting a bonus point win there. There is no way any team is going to lie down, particularly at home. The Sale result was bad, but if you are chasing a game from the off with 14 men then it's takes some doing to not fall apart. Also, Sale at home are pretty good, as looking at their results would suggest.

Exile Jack wrote:
Lord D,the performances we are seeing from the Regions are not the result of salary caps.That is just an excuse.Beating a so called top side occasionally is not success. The O's had all the players necessary on the pitch today but yet again they came up far short of the standard necessary.What will be interesting will be whether the O's coaches adopt their normal stance of blaming everyone bar themselves.

exile jack wrote:Exile Jack wrote:
Lord D,the performances we are seeing from the Regions are not the result of salary caps.That is just an excuse.Beating a so called top side occasionally is not success. The O's had all the players necessary on the pitch today but yet again they came up far short of the standard necessary.What will be interesting will be whether the O's coaches adopt their normal stance of blaming everyone bar themselves.

Good to finally see a fan criticise Tandy and his pal Gruff Rees. I don't include Gibbes because I think he's a good forwards coach.

Just a few reasons for the chronic shoite performances of the "regions" year after year etc etc......

1. Welsh Arrogance: We love to tell the English they are arrogant but most rugby folk in Wales live in a little pro 12 bubble and have no idea of the quality rugby that is played every week outside Wales. We believe our own bullsh*t.
2. South Wales is so small I could p**s on it from my bedroom window and yet there is constant petty parochial argument. See this thread for example.
3. The ownership, leadership, management and coaching of our "regions" is abysmal and stuck in an amateur era.
4. We have a handful of true international players, just enough to make a decent test team when they are all fit. Unfortunately rugby has become such a minority sport in Wales that most "fans" are happy that the national team does "ok". Most of the population doesn't know or care that club and "regional" rugby died a while ago and just hasn't been buried.
5. The WRU presides over this shambles with abandon. It has no idea how to run a 21st century sport.

I now invite all Welsh fans with their heads in the sand to counter the bl**ding obvious.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So going back to the clubs would achieve what?  How many European competitions did the our clubs win exactly?

One?

Have they?  last time I looked I am pretty sure the record books show that the Cardiff Blues which are classed as a Region by the Union won not Cardiff RFC.

Yep.

When exactly then? As I pointed out the record books show the Cardiff Blues won not Cardiff RFC.

Mikey_dragon,i'd like to believe your point about JG but the performances suggest otherwise unless he's not being given a free hand on skills/tactics/selection.I also noted a comment on O's TV recently that Rob Howley was a regular visitor to O's training!!! Nuff said.Picking up offload's points perhaps the WRU could apply NDC principles to the Regions' coaches which might enable us to attract coaches of the right calibre.I can't see the O's winning diddly squat with their current coaching set up,which given their playing resources is a real shame.

Jeebus, I thought us Irish were brilliant at internal provincial bickering but you Welsh aren't doing a bad job here

I haven't posted on this forum for years, but have recently got back in to reading a few threads.
Whilst reading this thread, I remember why I stopped.

Sarcasm, bickering and petty arguments without actual discussion. Or when a discussion is at least attempted, it's met with even more sarcasm and

Anyway, I'll give it a go as there are some interesting points made.

The regions have been disappointing for a while now. Waking up this morning (living in Aussie) and seeing the Ospreys' result was pretty gutting.

People need to remember that, to be a pro rugby player, particularly to play in European competitions, you need to be bloody good. Every single team in the 3 competitions are pretty good and capable of getting at least a one off win now and again.
So the Ospreys getting as close as they did in a particularly tough group and the Dragons qualifying is not to be sniffed at, but congratulated. At the very least, it's progress.

As for conceding tries, there is a world wide trend of try scoring and high point scoring games at the moment. The fact that the Ospreys have been scoring tries, and in France is great.

I think that the main issue is that regions are simply starting again. They realised just how much money was being spent, or rather the losses being run up, and changed their model completely. We are now maybe in our 3rd or 4th year of the regions since this. It's going to take time.

It has to remembered just how dire things got in the club system. It was awful. We don't want to be back there.
We are so close to a potential NZ model of Super Rugby and ITM Cup, we must continue to work on it.
The Pro 12 doesn't help in many ways, but that may be for another thread.

We are still, 100% underachieving. But I can't help but feel that we are getting close to making breakthroughs...sooner rather than later hopefully.

Monkeyowain12,i was at the O's game yesterday.We were outplayed and outclassed.I didn't feel close to a breakthrough.The O's lost 3 games in the EPCR cup and would have lost a 4th to UBB if the UBB winger hadn't been sent off.The Scarlets were humiliated by Racing 92 and the Dragons thrashed by Sale.Happy to accept that we are the victims of outrageous misfortune but we ain't.No SuperRugby/ITM franchise would accept these performances without consequences at managerial/playing/coaching level.In Wales we carry on regardless,it's our version of the insanity principle.Sorry if this comes across as strident but yesterday was a shocker but not the first and it won't be the last.Send us some of your SR/ITM coaches.We need them now.

I can assure you that Australia is full of organisations that accepts poor performances without consequences, I can think of a couple in NZ and SA too.

EJ, I do, completely agree in many ways. Current results have been pretty dire, I personally think that there are more underlying issues than coaching level. I don't think the Pro 12 in it's current guise is good enough, nor is the officiating.

What I do see though, is four teams with many local academy prospects performing to a certain level and in some cases, winning or earning competition points against teams with top players from everywhere with a wealth of experience.

If you were to look at Saracens' model, adding a load of South African players to a very young and inexperienced squad whilst developing the academy. The players they have coming through are now allowing for those SA's to leave/retire. Don't get me wrong, I know that they're budget is astronomical in comparing with our in Wales, but the model is one that may be happening in Wales...Hopefully

Feel like a stuck record sometimes but the Ospreys game plan, back play this season has been in consistent and dire, yesterday showed it. How we can throw the ball around away in France yet be one dimensional is beyond. Like exile said, we have only seem to have 3 plans of attack. 1- Inside ball from fly half. 2-Matevesi straight up the middle but with no support for the off load that never happens anyway. 3- kick, chip n chase, grubber.
I think the Ospreys are at the stage where we were with Johnson & Holley. Some of the backroom staff are too comfortable and are going through the motions with no accountability at all. Well done to Exeter btw..

MonkeyOwain12,I'm sorry for my frustration and apologise for my oversimplification.We lost to a team yesterday that,according to their fans around me,were missing up to 7 first choice players(of which 3 are internationals-1xWelsh,2xEnglish).One of their England internationals got taken off with a head injury.Despite this we served up an afternoon of poor discipline,misguided substitutions,comical tackling,poor kicking and an inability to deal with Exeter's restarts.When you add to that the absence of credible back play(bar 1 instance when JK broke their line and we should have scored!) I hope you can understand my disappointment.There is no shortage of quality players in Welsh regional rugby and there are excellent youngsters coming through.My increasing concern is whether the coaching standards in Welsh regional rugby are good enough to firstly get the best out of our best players consistently and secondly,to develop our young talent likewise.The evidence suggests not.

I'm tempted to delete it and not watch!! Sounds like it'd be infuriating!

Sadly, I tend to agree with you with regard to coaching. Whilst there are a handful of obviously very talented coaches in Wales, it does seem that we are a little behind the '8 ball' to say the least with some coaching.
There's a tendency to appoint ex-players off the bat with little or no experience.
There's 100% a need to develop this, and to develop a coaches' ability to think for himself/herself and work on gameplans/structures and above all, culture.

The Ospreys attacking or back play has been dreadful for ages. Yet, to see some of the tries scored in France for example shows that they are capable. I'm very hopeful that Engelbrecht will add several dimensions to it. Truly the kind of overseas signing I like to see.

MonkeyOwain12,you should watch it.Any of the 4 regions could play like it.I hope you are right about JJE but the O's backplay seems constrained by a philosophy of kick,kick,box kick,kick,contact and the blydi missed pass.After you have watched it please do post your thoughts.

I guess that I'll brave it then...I'm scared

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So going back to the clubs would achieve what?  How many European competitions did the our clubs win exactly?

One?

Have they?  last time I looked I am pretty sure the record books show that the Cardiff Blues which are classed as a Region by the Union won not Cardiff RFC.

Yep.

When exactly then?  As I pointed out the record books show the Cardiff Blues won not Cardiff RFC.

He's winding you up Beds. I wouldn't take it so seriously if I were you. I go down to Cardiff almost every other weekend to watch them, they have never seen themselves as being part of a wider geographical area than Cardiff. In all fairness they did pay for that privilege. Look on the bright side, at least you only have to put up with it on here.

Where were all the Scarlet's fans for the Saints game?

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:I'm tempted to delete it and not watch!! Sounds like it'd be infuriating!

Sadly, I tend to agree with you with regard to coaching. Whilst there are a handful of obviously very talented coaches in Wales, it does seem that we are a little behind the '8 ball' to say the least with some coaching.
There's a tendency to appoint ex-players off the bat with little or no experience.
There's 100% a need to develop this, and to develop a coaches' ability to think for himself/herself and work on gameplans/structures and above all, culture.

The Ospreys attacking or back play has been dreadful for ages. Yet, to see some of the tries scored in France for example shows that they are capable. I'm very hopeful that Engelbrecht will add several dimensions to it. Truly the kind of overseas signing I like to see.

Welsh coaches were a requirement of the previous PA weren't they? Another sh7t sandwich we can thank the Roger Lewis Catering Co for serving up

offload wrote:Just a few reasons for the chronic shoite performances of the "regions" year after year etc etc......

1. Welsh Arrogance:  We love to tell the English they are arrogant but most rugby folk in Wales live in a little pro 12 bubble and have no idea of the quality rugby that is played every week outside Wales.  We believe our own bullsh*t.
2. South Wales is so small I could p**s on it from my bedroom window and yet there is constant petty parochial argument.  See this thread for example.
3. The ownership, leadership, management and coaching of our "regions" is abysmal and stuck in an amateur era.
4. We have a handful of true international players, just enough to make a decent test team when they are all fit.  Unfortunately rugby has become such a minority sport in Wales that most "fans" are happy that the national team does "ok".  Most of the population doesn't know or care that club and "regional" rugby died a while ago and just hasn't been buried.
5. The WRU presides over this shambles with abandon.  It has no idea how to run a 21st century sport.

I now invite all Welsh fans with their heads in the sand to counter the bl**ding obvious.

This. The Ospreys have 2 out of 3 in that list right and they were one result away from qualifying.

They lack a decent 13 sure, but they also look poorly coached in an attacking sense. Which is not just an Ospey issue.

Blues look like they have all three now, and their results are improving - I think they will be very strong next year.

Scarlets have the basics, but their squad is so thin one or two injuries and they are in trouble. I question whether their ownership model and locla population will ever give them the finances to truly compete.

Dragons are a basket case. The business is still run like a club from the amateur region when compared to other teams, both in the pro 12 and England, their coach is still stuck in the 90's and their owners are happy to let it continue. As much as I am an avid Gwent regional fan in principle, part of me would like to see a change, any change, to see if it makes any difference.

GavinDragon wrote:

offload wrote:Just a few reasons for the chronic shoite performances of the "regions" year after year etc etc......

1. Welsh Arrogance:  We love to tell the English they are arrogant but most rugby folk in Wales live in a little pro 12 bubble and have no idea of the quality rugby that is played every week outside Wales.  We believe our own bullsh*t.
2. South Wales is so small I could p**s on it from my bedroom window and yet there is constant petty parochial argument.  See this thread for example.
3. The ownership, leadership, management and coaching of our "regions" is abysmal and stuck in an amateur era.
4. We have a handful of true international players, just enough to make a decent test team when they are all fit.  Unfortunately rugby has become such a minority sport in Wales that most "fans" are happy that the national team does "ok".  Most of the population doesn't know or care that club and "regional" rugby died a while ago and just hasn't been buried.
5. The WRU presides over this shambles with abandon.  It has no idea how to run a 21st century sport.

I now invite all Welsh fans with their heads in the sand to counter the bl**ding obvious.

This. The Ospreys have 2 out of 3 in that list right and they were one result away from qualifying.

They lack a decent 13 sure, but they also look poorly coached in an attacking sense. Which is not just an Ospey issue.

Blues look like they have all three now, and their results are improving - I think they will be very strong next year.

Scarlets have the basics, but their squad is so thin one or two injuries and they are in trouble. I question whether their ownership model and locla population will ever give them the finances to truly compete.

Dragons are a basket case. The business is still run like a club from the amateur region when compared to other teams, both in the pro 12 and England, their coach is still stuck in the 90's and their owners are happy to let it continue. As much as I am an avid Gwent regional fan in principle, part of me would like to see a change, any change, to see if it makes any difference.

I agree with this 100%. Credit where credit is due, this member is talking a lot of sense. 

Although, I will wait until next season before I comment on the bit about Cardiff Blues. I have seen far too many false dawns with that lot.

You sure LD? It wasn't so long ago that you were implying that us lot are happy as larry.

mikey_dragon wrote:You sure LD? It wasn't so long ago that you were implying that us lot are happy as larry.

I would have got tarred and feathered by you, Risca, Stone Motif and Griff if I had typed what GavinDragon did about Dragons.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You sure LD? It wasn't so long ago that you were implying that us lot are happy as larry.

I would have got tarred and feathered by you, Risca, Stone Motif and Griff if I had typed what GavinDragon did about Dragons.

No, GD makes some good points. We've ALL been critical of the Dragons over the years. Just go back and read the season threads. We might have differences in opinion on how the club/region should be structured, but we all want what's best for the Dragons.

You on the other hand like to single out the Dragons for lack of ambition, compare us in a negative light to the ultra-ambitious Blues (who you state are turning things around???), and then criticise us for being rubbish as if we've been eliminated from Europe like the rest, which is not the case. You question our existence due to lack of success, while ignoring the lack of success of the other regions barring Ospreys' league wins. That's what rankles with a lot of us.

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You sure LD? It wasn't so long ago that you were implying that us lot are happy as larry.

I would have got tarred and feathered by you, Risca, Stone Motif and Griff if I had typed what GavinDragon did about Dragons.

No, GD makes some good points.  We've ALL been critical of the Dragons over the years.  Just go back and read the season threads.  We might have differences in opinion on how the club/region should be structured, but we all want what's best for the Dragons.

You on the other hand like to single out the Dragons for lack of ambition, compare us in a negative light to the ultra-ambitious Blues (who you state are turning things around???), and then criticise us for being rubbish as if we've been eliminated from Europe like the rest, which is not the case.  You question our existence due to lack of success, while ignoring the lack of success of the other regions barring Ospreys' league wins.  That's what rankles with a lot of us.

This is why you get tarred and feathered LD.

Griff wrote:
You on the other hand like to single out the Dragons for lack of ambition, compare us in a negative light to the ultra-ambitious Blues (who you state are turning things around???), and then criticise us for being rubbish as if we've been eliminated from Europe like the rest, which is not the case. You question our existence due to lack of success, while ignoring the lack of success of the other regions barring Ospreys' league wins. That's what rankles with a lot of us.

I was speaking about Dragons on a Dragons thread, how does that construe to singling out Dragons ?

I have never questioned the existence of Dragons, I have said the future is bleak and the writing is on the wall, but I have never questioned their existence, if any regions existence should be questioned it is Scarlets. There is a distinct lack of success at all four regions, Dragons have been the least successful of all of them, the worst of a bad bunch. I am sorry if that fact rankles you, but it is the truth.

Your so damn precious when it comes to your beloved Dragons. You make it all personal, it's not the fans fault the region is so poor, I have said numerous times, the fans deserve better, but you prefer to take things as a personal attack.

If I typed what GavinDragon did, I would be told to get off the forum blah, blah, blah. But now one of your own has dared to say what I have been saying then he makes some good points, and I get called hypocritical on here.


The stark truth is, the regions are failing, we are halfway through the season, and we have one side in the top six of the league, and one team qualifying from their group in Europe's second tier, with not much hope of progressing. I hope Dragons pull it off though, I need something to lift this depression.

It's time we all started facing reality. I can name only about three players who put as much effort into their region as they do team Wales, AWJ, Dan Biggar and Liam Williams, when he is fit. For what ever reason, as soon as the rest go back to their regions they recede. There are serious issues with Welsh domestic rugby, and it is depressing to watch.

Exeter released James back to a Welch club , he wasn't getting enough first team appearances and now he's in the Wales squad I think that says something about Exeter and their standards.

rosbif wrote:Exeter released James back to a Welch club  , he wasn't getting enough first team appearances and now he's in the Wales squad  I think that says something about Exeter and their standards.

I hope miaow reads this as it was part of a recent point that I made to him!

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You sure LD? It wasn't so long ago that you were implying that us lot are happy as larry.

I would have got tarred and feathered by you, Risca, Stone Motif and Griff if I had typed what GavinDragon did about Dragons.

So, is he a decent person now?

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:
You on the other hand like to single out the Dragons for lack of ambition, compare us in a negative light to the ultra-ambitious Blues (who you state are turning things around???), and then criticise us for being rubbish as if we've been eliminated from Europe like the rest, which is not the case. You question our existence due to lack of success, while ignoring the lack of success of the other regions barring Ospreys' league wins. That's what rankles with a lot of us.

I was speaking about Dragons on a Dragons thread, how does that construe to singling out Dragons ?

Read again what he wrote/you quoted. And you did not say what GD said.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Read again what he wrote/you quoted. And you did not say what GD said.

I was speaking about Dragons, on a Dragons thread, please stop side stepping. 

Anyway, I stand by what I said, the regions are failing.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:
You on the other hand like to single out the Dragons for lack of ambition, compare us in a negative light to the ultra-ambitious Blues (who you state are turning things around???), and then criticise us for being rubbish as if we've been eliminated from Europe like the rest, which is not the case. You question our existence due to lack of success, while ignoring the lack of success of the other regions barring Ospreys' league wins. That's what rankles with a lot of us.

I was speaking about Dragons on a Dragons thread, how does that construe to singling out Dragons ?

I have never questioned the existence of Dragons, I have said the future is bleak and the writing is on the wall, but I have never questioned their existence, if any regions existence should be questioned it is Scarlets. There is a distinct lack of success at all four regions, Dragons have been the least successful of all of them, the worst of a bad bunch. I am sorry if that fact rankles you, but it is the truth.

Your so damn precious when it comes to your beloved Dragons. You make it all personal, it's not the fans fault the region is so poor, I have said numerous times, the fans deserve better, but you prefer to take things as a personal attack.

If I typed what GavinDragon did, I would be told to get off the forum blah, blah, blah. But now one of your own has dared to say what I have been saying then he makes some good points, and I get called hypocritical on here.


The stark truth is, the regions are failing, we are halfway through the season, and we have one side in the top six of the league, and one team qualifying from their group in Europe's second tier, with not much hope of progressing. I hope Dragons pull it off though, I need something to lift this depression.

It's time we all started facing reality. I can name only about three players who put as much effort into their region as they do team Wales, AWJ, Dan Biggar and Liam Williams, when he is fit. For what ever reason, as soon as the rest go back to their regions they recede. There are serious issues with Welsh domestic rugby, and it is depressing to watch.

What is your suggested solution then LD?

Chicken and egg scenario for me. All four regions need more money, but none of them are successful which keeps fans away, deters sponsors etc which leads to a lack of money.

PT investing in CB should reap rewards as it did between 07/09. The issue is there was no succession planning in place. Dai Young left along with many senior players of that squad. RL and WRU interference, along with what I imagine is a decline in business revenue from the recession (by the looks of it) stopped PT investing more. If they are sucessful in the coming seasons, they need to ensure they have succession planning using their academy and/or scouting to ensure players come through. I mean they are the capital based side with 500k living within the city. You would think they could attract 10k plus every week.

LD we aren't side stepping. You need to actually pay attention to what you're typing, either that or you're lying and just trying to WUM.

So basically, you should admit your posts I highlighted to you were nonsense Dowlais. Because you were moaning about budgets etc and now you expect us to do better.

Dragons live within their means. It doesn't strictly mean that they lack ambition, but it will mean they will be towards the bottom end of the table. When you write guff like Dragons supporters have their heads in the sand, or rubbish about your facts people will have a go at you. You're not some visionary that is telling us what we don't know. I won't speak for others or tell them how they think like you do, but I am not happy with how things are down there. I have been one of the most vocal people calling for the board to change certain things and for Lyn Jones to go. Next time I do it, I will ensure you are aware though.

RiscaGame wrote:So basically, you should admit your posts I highlighted to you were nonsense Dowlais. Because you were moaning about budgets etc and now you expect us to do better.

Risca, again always attacking and looking to win the internet. No I do not expect the regions to be going away from home and winning all the time, their respective budgets will not allow that. But what I do expect, is for them to show a bit of passion, a bit of fight, and a lot more gumption. Budgets do not dictate how you play. You do not get better handling skills and the what not with a bigger budget.

I expect Dragons to go to a side that is 4 places off the bottom in their respective league and at least give them a game. I expect a side that has players like AWJ, Justin Tuperic, Dan Biggar, to go away from home and not get five tries put passed them every time. I expect our sides to not lose every game in a tournament, I expect all our regions to get out of their groups if they were in the second tier of Europe, and I would expect to see more than one side in the top six in the league.

That is the top and bottom of it for me. I am sorry if that offends you, but that is how I see it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355

The solution is right here. £45.1m of debt. Wray goes as far as to say the solution to the debt problem is a smaller squad and finishing 11th.

funnyExiledScot wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355

The solution is right here. £45.1m of debt. Wray goes as far as to say the solution to the debt problem is a smaller squad and finishing 11th.

Again, extra money will not stop players dropping the ball, giving away stupid pens, using the same tactics over and over, missing kicks at goal and touch, rubbish back moves, no pride, taking a loss as a given.

I have seen the same players transform when playing for Wales, why are they not doing this for their regions. My only solace in all this, is that with the DC, next season we will see an improvement, but they are the same players as they are this year, so I do not hold out much hope.

No but I guess money could bring in players that don't drop the ball; and it could also bring in top level coaches. I imagine a guy like Bernard Laporte, most successful France coach wasn't cheap. Whilst the stocks of guys like Baxter and O'Shea is continuing to rise. It all starts with coaching and good investment, the English have this more than us and the French IMO.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355

The solution is right here. £45.1m of debt. Wray goes as far as to say the solution to the debt problem is a smaller squad and finishing 11th.

Again, extra money will not stop players dropping the ball, giving away stupid pens, using the same tactics over and over, missing kicks at goal and touch, rubbish back moves, no pride, taking a loss as a given.

I have seen the same players transform when playing for Wales, why are they not doing this for their regions. My only solace in all this, is that with the DC, next season we will see an improvement, but they are the same players as they are this year, so I do not hold out much hope.

Without stating the obvious, I think with £45.1m you could probably buy better players (no disrespect intended to the current squad).

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355

The solution is right here. £45.1m of debt. Wray goes as far as to say the solution to the debt problem is a smaller squad and finishing 11th.

Again, extra money will not stop players dropping the ball, giving away stupid pens, using the same tactics over and over, missing kicks at goal and touch, rubbish back moves, no pride, taking a loss as a given.

I have seen the same players transform when playing for Wales, why are they not doing this for their regions. My only solace in all this, is that with the DC, next season we will see an improvement, but they are the same players as they are this year, so I do not hold out much hope.

So coaching is the solution then? I must admit I agree with that. I think the level of coaching in Wales is terrible at most levels, which is awful when you consider we had, arguably, the first modern coach in Carwyn James whom's methods many people, New Zealand included, copied.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355

The solution is right here. £45.1m of debt. Wray goes as far as to say the solution to the debt problem is a smaller squad and finishing 11th.

Again, extra money will not stop players dropping the ball, giving away stupid pens, using the same tactics over and over, missing kicks at goal and touch, rubbish back moves, no pride, taking a loss as a given.

I have seen the same players transform when playing for Wales, why are they not doing this for their regions. My only solace in all this, is that with the DC, next season we will see an improvement, but they are the same players as they are this year, so I do not hold out much hope.

Without stating the obvious, I think with £45.1m you could probably buy better players (no disrespect intended to the current squad).

Dropped balls isn't our problem tbh, it's our set piece.

mikey_dragon wrote:No but I guess money could bring in players that don't drop the ball; and it could also bring in top level coaches. I imagine a guy like Bernard Laporte, most successful France coach was cheap. Whilst the stocks of guys like Baxter and O'Shea is continuing to rise. It all starts with coaching and good investment, the English have this more than us and the French IMO.

It's not just the coaching at the regions, although I will agree it's a major factor, but it is the mindset at the regions as well, the four regions are simply meandering along without improving, and they are answering to nobody. This is what winds me up about the whole debacle. We have just had a bitter civil war in our rugby, the regions won, they got what they wanted, yet we STILL have Andrew Hore spouting off his nonsense. 

The regions have a salary cap of 4.5 million next season, and we have the DC's. Surely there must be something decent they can do with all this extra £££££'s. If it is spending money on better coaches, then lets spend it there, but I promise you, we will see more of the same crap next season, and people like Andrew Hore still grizzling.

GavinDragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355

The solution is right here. £45.1m of debt. Wray goes as far as to say the solution to the debt problem is a smaller squad and finishing 11th.

Again, extra money will not stop players dropping the ball, giving away stupid pens, using the same tactics over and over, missing kicks at goal and touch, rubbish back moves, no pride, taking a loss as a given.

I have seen the same players transform when playing for Wales, why are they not doing this for their regions. My only solace in all this, is that with the DC, next season we will see an improvement, but they are the same players as they are this year, so I do not hold out much hope.

So coaching is the solution then? I must admit I agree with that. I think the level of coaching in Wales is terrible at most levels, which is awful when you consider we had, arguably, the first modern coach in Carwyn James whom's methods many people, New Zealand included, copied.

A NZ coach came in said his region were about 15 years behind the training in NZ. Why the WRU aren't taking this seriously I don't know.

mikey_dragon wrote:Dropped balls isn't our problem tbh, it's our set piece.

Again, a bigger budget will not solve that.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:No but I guess money could bring in players that don't drop the ball; and it could also bring in top level coaches. I imagine a guy like Bernard Laporte, most successful France coach was cheap. Whilst the stocks of guys like Baxter and O'Shea is continuing to rise. It all starts with coaching and good investment, the English have this more than us and the French IMO.

It's not just the coaching at the regions, although I will agree it's a major factor, but it is the mindset at the regions as well, the four regions are simply meandering along without improving, and they are answering to nobody. This is what winds me up about the whole debacle. We have just had a bitter civil war in our rugby, the regions won, they got what they wanted, yet we STILL have Andrew Hore spouting off his nonsense. 

The regions have a salary cap of 4.5 million next season, and we have the DC's. Surely there must be something decent they can do with all this extra £££££'s. If it is spending money on better coaches, then lets spend it there, but I promise you, we will see more of the same crap next season, and people like Andrew Hore still grizzling.

I think that's just how you view it LD. The Regions are just trying to live within their means as we don't have the resources of others, that is a fact.

We'll still have limited resources next season and they won't be spread out evenly either. So as you say I imagine things will be the same.