Rafa gets wild card for Buenos Aires

First topic message reminder :

http://www.canindia.com/djokovic-insists-nadal-still-remains-king-of-clay

What is your opinion ??  Do you agree or is Novak just being patronising ?
Over to you socal

Thank YOU Lydian...I wanted to answer that load of codswallop but
could not quite muster the enthusiasm and wherewithal.. To quote Borg to bolster the argument is laughable when all those who followed his career knew his reasons for leaving the game as early as he did.. Rafa's decline is all about Rafa nothing more nothing less.. unless you want to believe that when Djokovic goes off the boil and needs to retire that the game has moved on without him But nooo of course not Novak is like the Duracell Bunny

Well some impassioned points but I disagree with some and agree with others. No question he isn't the same player and that is the main reason he is struggling. However this on its own doesn't preclude a contributing factor being that the tour has also advanced and become used to his style and his textbook of play. Other players have adopted similar aspects, coaches and players have come up with better ways of handling him as well. No question also physically he has lost a step. The main reason I feel he errors so much on the FH is principally because he can't do the hardwork to run around his BH as aggressively as he used to therefore his FH asks too much of his movement and he has to hit more often from less ideal positions and later. Therefore while I don't disagree that Nadal has fallen off quite a bit, I also think a contributing factor could be that his style is not as revolutionary and people are better able to now cope with it and others are hitting higher and higher RPMS as well so it isn't just Nadal who hops that ball up. In fact, Sock has touched the same RPM levels of well over 6000 and he is hitting the ball with more mphs while being very heavy. I still think a case can be made that Nadal strategically banked to much on topspin and big heavy swings from the back of the court while not improving enough his backhand down the line and his ability to hit early. Yes he can do it, I have seen him do it, he just is not comfortable enough and good enough at it and therefore doesn't or feels like he can't step up on the baseline as much as he needs to.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Thank YOU Lydian...I wanted to answer that load of codswallop but
could not quite muster the enthusiasm and wherewithal.. To quote Borg to bolster the argument is laughable when all those who followed his career knew his reasons for leaving the game as early as he did.. Rafa's decline is all about Rafa nothing more nothing less.. unless you want to believe that when Djokovic goes off the boil and needs to retire that the game has moved on without him But nooo of course not Novak is like the Duracell Bunny

Cool codswallop, my posts have never been thus complimented. Thank you. Why do you always bring up Djokovic? This is about Nadal and his terrible loss of form. Its funny, I often respond to people's posts on Djokovic but less often do I bring up myself. We are analyzing the reasons for his loss of form, and your hypersensitive reading of my posts which in no way was disrespectful to Nadal maybe tells us a lot more about your own jealousy towards Novak's success when compared with your own favorite's current poor form. Let me remind you that I have often defended Nadal and have never been those that either write him off or unfairly smear and criticize him. That doesn't make my opinion on his recent form any less or more valid. Its not a swipe at Nadal at all but an attempt to analyze his game and his recent form. Pretty tame actually to be honest so I don't know why it has incited you and Lydian so much. And what does any of this have to do with Djokovic, the thread is not on him and I only mentioned him in passing in a group of players.

socal1976 wrote: the tour has also advanced  

Sorry I couldn't read any more after that it was too

Nadal should remove Gluten from his menu, it has done wonders for Djoko, he is never injured any more and can run all day.

Agree with Lydian. The game has past him by? Nah, he was still beating a boatload of them end of last year. Surely Verdasco, Fog, Cuevres, Feli, Tsonga are no new kid on the block! Rafa did beat Sock at FO last year despite Rafa's poor form and Sock's rpm topspin. Even Raonic and Thiem who beat him had to go the distance and Rafa even had MP ( vs Thiem).

Its more about Rafa and his bad form than these other players. I do think the balls in use play a part too. Rafa did mention the balls now are more 'hollow' and dont take to topspin well, which may explain well he's practicing to hit flatter shots (had successes at the IPTL and Abu Dhabi exhos) but he couldnt bring that to his tour matches for some reasons.

He was playing well at WTF last year and at Abu Dhabi exho this year, so its not like he doesnt have the game anymore ( to beat the top guys not named Novak), its a matter of his own belief, nerve and feeling the pressure to win to convince himself and others.

socal1976 wrote:I still think a case can be made that Nadal strategically banked to much on topspin and big heavy swings from the back of the court while not improving enough his backhand down the line and his ability to hit early.

Haha...the irony of the contradiction...what case? The case that he could have won even more than 14 GS if he hadn't relied on that spin? I'm pretty sure 99.99% of players would like to "rely" too much on topspin with those results!

Or the irony of the case that Nadal relied too much on spin but then you go on about Sock mustering 6000rpm like it's an evolution??? Does that mean Jack is relying on it too much also...which case are we to believe? I don't see Jack winning 14GS, do you? Which kind of means it wasn't really that fabled 5000rpm that won Nadal all those trophies was it? There is a lot more to these multislam winners than can be conveniently summarised into 3-4 easy sound bites which can then be said have been superseded by a batch of latest players who in reality are nothing but a pale imitation of the guys they are said to have moved beyond. But whilst we're talking rpm...is that peak or average rpm for Sock? You'll find the average rpms probably a tad different.

Anyway, you haven't "incited" my response, I simply don't share your view of what's happened in tennis. You quoted Borg of standing deep behind the baseline but that's not the case. I still fail to see how the game has miraculously evolved in 18-24 months since Nadal should have won AO14 and did win RG14...or was he relying on spin too much then also? As I said above its all about confidence not rpm (even though his FH is weakened presently). What separates these very top greats is usually what's between their ears...thats what makes them make their strengths really count...but those strengths can become their weaknesses. Nadal is mentally weakened and has been since mid 14 onwards. Funnily enough I think that loss to Wawrinka at AO14 was the real start of it...he took a long time to get over that one...and to me hasn't looked right since. That loss did something to him mentally even though he couldn't help the situ with his neck. After all 2013 before that was great...

Rafa was still beating everyone at the AO in 2014 (including Kei and Dimi, and old guards Monfils and Fed) to reach the final before he had his back injury. He was still winning the FO in 2014 beating none other than Novak in the final; also beat Ferrer and Murray, Thiem along the way. He also reached the final at Miami and Rome and won Doha,Rio and Madrid that year before he had his wrist injury and had to miss NAHC swing.

He was poor on grass since 2011 due to his knee injuries so he lost to big hitting/big serving guys on grass the likes of Rosol, Kygrios, Brown and last year to Dolgo and Brown. Notice that he was playing close to the baseline when playing on grass, all along, since 2006. So its not like he couldnt play close to the baseline, it very much depends on the surface and the bounce. On clay his default position is always further from the baseline.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Agree with Lydian.  The game has past him by? Nah, he was still beating a boatload of them end of last year. Surely Verdasco, Fog, Cuevres, Feli, Tsonga are no new kid on the block! Rafa did beat Sock at FO last year despite Rafa's poor form and Sock's rpm topspin. Even Raonic and Thiem who beat him had to go the distance and Rafa even had MP ( vs Thiem).

Its more about Rafa and his bad form than these other players.  I do think the balls in use play a part too. Rafa did mention the balls now are more 'hollow' and dont take to topspin well, which may explain well he's practicing to hit flatter shots (had successes at the IPTL and Abu Dhabi exhos) but he couldnt bring that to his tour matches for some reasons.

He was playing well at WTF last year and at Abu Dhabi exho this year, so its not like he doesnt have the game anymore ( to beat the top guys not named Novak), its a matter of his own belief, nerve and feeling the pressure to win to convince himself and others.

I watched the Sock match last year, Rafa got lucky Sock had the worst serving day I have ever seen him have with double faults and low percentage and yet it was 4 tough sets on clay. If anything if you watched that match you would have seen both guys hitting huge forehands but really it was Sock's FH that was more telling. He choked a bit and couldn't hit the broadside of the barn with his first serve. That being said it was not an easy win for anyone watched that match would know. If anything Sock's FH was much more lethal in a neutral rally than Nadal's, just a massive choke job by the younger less experienced Sock.

Yeah we get the whole confidence thing, obviously that plays a role. Nobody is saying that he isn't suffering from a lack of confidence. But is it a lack of confidence simply due to a poor run of form or because he himself knows that he isn't the same player physically or technically. I mean confidence isn't completely separated from ability and your level. I mean I can play Roger Federer and be confident to win, but I don't have the skill set or the shots or athleticism to compete, so what? The confidence comes from knowing you can play at the highest levels, it isn't a tonic or something you can take. If you keep having poor results it certainly won't fix itself. He has to be able to hurt people with his shots and he isn't consistently able to do it. And I would also posit that one factor is that Nadal's weight of shot is not as unique as it once was and players are more used to and better equipped at handling it. I personally think all of these factors including his own loss of step physically is a big part of it. His physicality and weight of shot are just not as unique and as big and advantage as they one were.

You are comparing Sock's FH to Rafa's of 2015? Anyone could have a better FH than Rafa's in 2015!

lydian wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I still think a case can be made that Nadal strategically banked to much on topspin and big heavy swings from the back of the court while not improving enough his backhand down the line and his ability to hit early.

Haha...the irony of the contradiction...what case? The case that he could have won even more than 14 GS if he hadn't relied on that spin? I'm pretty sure 99.99% of players would like to "rely" too much on topspin with those results!

Or the irony of the case that Nadal relied too much on spin but then you go on about Sock mustering 6000rpm like it's an evolution??? Does that mean Jack is relying on it too much also...which case are we to believe? I don't see Jack winning 14GS, do you? Which kind of means it wasn't really that fabled 5000rpm that won Nadal all those trophies was it? There is a lot more to these multislam winners than can be conveniently summarised into 3-4 easy sound bites which can then be said have been superseded by a batch of latest players who in reality are nothing but a pale imitation of the guys they are said to have moved beyond. But whilst we're talking rpm...is that peak or average rpm for Sock? You'll find the average rpms probably a tad different.

Anyway, you haven't "incited" my response, I simply don't share your view of what's happened in tennis. You quoted Borg of standing deep behind the baseline but that's not the case. I still fail to see how the game has miraculously evolved in 18-24 months since Nadal should have won AO14 and did win RG14...or was he relying on spin too much then also? As I said above its all about confidence not rpm (even though his FH is weakened presently). What separates these very top greats is usually what's between their ears...thats what makes them make their strengths really count...but those strengths can become their weaknesses. Nadal is mentally weakened and has been since mid 14 onwards. Funnily enough I think that loss to Wawrinka at AO14 was the real start of it...he took a long time to get over that one...and to me hasn't looked right since. That loss did something to him mentally even though he couldn't help the situ with his neck. After all 2013 before that was great...

We are talking about Borg playing behind the baseline in games he isn't serving on grass. I watched Borg, I myself commented on what a great and underated server and volleyer he was. That is no surprise or mystery to me. But his baseline style of play was not serve and volley, and his court positioning was not aggressive baseline lets say when he played on clay or in return games on other surfaces. Everyone went to net more back then Borg included but that was not his base game and what he was known for. He certainly positioned himself on average less aggressively than Connors a contemporary.

As for your points on Sock you seem to be making a straw man. I didn't say he was better than Rafa Nadal only that his forehand is about as heavy. This is an objective measure and Sock and Nadal's FH are the two heaviest on tour and Sock while being closer in terms of RPM also hits higher MPhs and more winners I would reckon in average set. That doesn't mean that he is a better player or even that his FH is better overall. What it does mean is that he does go up the RPM gauge just as high or basically as high as Nadal.

The reason I said he sold out too much on topspin is a matter of degree. Of course his career is on overwhelming success but for years everyone has said he has to be more aggressive, play tighter to the baseline, pop some returns and backhands up the line, and move into net more. He can do all these things but has not been able to do it well enough to keep himself relevant at the highest levels. I think the way he was playing in 2010 and HC 2013 was the brand of Nadal that we more need to see. Again it is about degree and evolving over time. I don't think he could become the second coming of Agassi but that he would evolve to a different style that would allow him to not be outgunned at this stage. Yes, in that sense he under utilizes or has under developed these skills that would have allowed him to evolve as he loses physicality. So in that sense he over invested in the spin for too much and for too long and to too large an extent.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:You are comparing Sock's FH to Rafa's of 2015? Anyone could have a better FH than Rafa's in 2015!

Sock hits 6000 rpm on his FH spin wise that is as high as Nadal's whether you are talking 2015 or 2010 or whenever. If it isn't just as high he is 95 plus percent there. Therefore my point that Nadal's huge spin isn't as unique stands.

Read, its the balls in use that dont take to topspin as much as before, which may explain why more and more youngsters are blurgeoning the ball than doing anything else.

So, Rafa was/is practising to flatten his shots more. If you've watched his exho matches at the beginning of this year, you would have noticed that he's hitting flatter with more penetration and that's how he beat Ferrer and Raonic. They were all hitting well, as they took Abu Dhabi as proper warm up for the AO, not those exho for exho sake kind of matches.

Rafa's topspin is/was unique not just for topspin sake, its his precision with the heavy shots that separates him from the likes of Sock. Rafa was also not blurgeoning the ball, with raw power, its not his adopted style,not hitting as hard as the other guys. Notice that back in 2004, he was hitting flatter FHs that went 100 mph or above,clearly he had the raw power to do so, its just that he preferred to hit with more topspin during and after 2005 for the sake of having successes on clay.

Muster also hit with high rpm topspin but why everyone talked about Rafa being unique but not Muster? Nobody talked about Sock and his topspin FH that much too.

Of course it is mostly due to Rafa's poor form (or decline?) that he is not winning anymore.  Game moves on, but not nearly fast enough so that a guy who was winning slams and was #1 in the world less than a couple of years ago should be losing to Thiem and Cuevas now.

I would also say - again - that all these results tend to get heavily extrapolated in our discussions.  He loses a couple of matches and all of a sudden his career is done.  Then he plays a bit better in the fall HC stretch, and all of a sudden he is back in the hunt.  Then again loses a couple of matches....

The reality is that he has been playing poorly - by his standards - the last 1.5 years or so.  But even so, he has been playing roughly to a #5 player in the world level.  And his results are just about what one would see of a player that level - some poor losses, and some decent wins.  When Wawrinka loses to a nobody, we are not shocked, we just view it as normal.  Rafa is now roughly at the same level.  Which means, he is still well below what he used to do, but he is not as far off as some would make it out.

In a way I agree with HE, thought from my angle it reads differently:  This year's AO was the one nice result; these small tournaments in South America do not mean much one way or another.

I would tend to agree with you SB but as you note he has had a year and half of poor form. And I don't think I agree that these early losses aren't relevant and aren't a big concern. This was a guy who used to go years at times without losing on clay. When he loses to average guys on your best surface and your big chance for grandslam glory is RG again then it is concerning. I don't think at this stage in the year, especially if you look at points race he has even been at top ten level.

If this had been a one month or even a bad year maybe. I remember at the end of last year he was playing better in the indoors, not running roughshod but playing better and then he started by making the final in Doha. Since then it has been huge underperformance, no one would expect a top or even top ten player to lose on his favorite surface to Cuevas, a one handed backhand player at that.

So these losses on his citadel do matter, they are a very bad danger signal, and this year he hasn't even been top ten level let alone top 5.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Read, its the balls in use that dont take to topspin as much as before, which may explain why more and more youngsters are blurgeoning the ball than doing anything else.

So, Rafa was/is practising to flatten his shots more.  If you've watched his exho matches at the beginning of this year, you would have noticed that he's hitting flatter with more penetration and that's how he beat Ferrer and Raonic. They were all hitting well, as they took Abu Dhabi as proper warm up for the AO, not those exho for exho sake kind of matches.

Rafa's topspin is/was unique not just for topspin sake, its his precision with the heavy shots that separates him from the likes of Sock. Rafa was also not blurgeoning the ball, with raw power, its not his adopted style,not hitting as hard as the other guys. Notice that back in 2004, he was hitting flatter FHs that went 100 mph or above,clearly he had the raw power to do so, its just that he preferred to hit with more topspin during and after 2005 for the sake of having successes on clay.

Muster also hit with high rpm topspin but why everyone talked about Rafa being unique but not Muster? Nobody talked about Sock and his topspin FH that much too.

Again don't get confused I am not saying Sock's FH is better or Sock is better. I said his forehand's heavy spin, which was the big difference between his FH and everyone else's is not as unique. There are players now who get the RPM dial up just as high as Nadal and that was something that was not the case in 08 and 07. By the way Sock also hits higher MPH than Rafa as well on average. And again I know Nadal can hit over a hundred miles an hour on his FH, you don't need to convince and it simply isn't what I am arguing about.

I am sure his confidence is in the dumps, I am sure that his movement is a step slower, but I also think players seem to be able to handle his style and the weight of his shot easier than the early days of his career. All three statements can be true and I think probably are.

“He’s got such unbelievable racket-head speed,” said Tom Gullikson, the coach and former United States Davis Cup captain who was sitting courtside next to Sock’s coach, Troy Hahn.

Data collected by Hawkeye at the tournament in Indian Wells, Calif., in March provided a comparison of Sock’s forehand against two of the most devastating forehands in the modern game. Sock’s average forehand speed was 77 miles per hour, the same as Rafael Nadal’s and 2 m.p.h. faster than Roger Federer’s.

When it came to average revolutions per minute, Sock’s forehand came in at 3,337 r.p.m., just behind Nadal’s 3,391 and well ahead of Federer’s 2,925.

“Jack is the only person who is in Rafa’s league as far as the combination of speed and r.p.m.s on the forehand side,” said Jim Courier, the former world No. 1 and the current United States Davis Cup captain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/30/sports/tennis/carrying-a-torch-and-a-fiery-forehand.html?_r=0

Again last year at IW they did the hawkeye comparison and both Nadal and Sock well above the field with an average of 3300 rpms on AVERAGE!. Your talking a difference of 50 rpm out nearly 3400 rpms for both men. So my point about Sock having as heavy a FH as Nadal stands. Its not my opinion its based on Hawkeye/shot spot numbers.

Jim Courier told us that Hawkeye measured Jack Socks' forehand as producing the greatest topspin of anybody not from Majorca. Plus, he hit one at 120 mph, which is the highest groundstroke velocity I've ever heard of. Fernando Gonzalez was once clocked at 118 mph.

http://www.fawcette.net/2014/09/jack-socks-explosive-forehand-.html

Again, not saying it is better just using the Sock FH to show that what Nadal does on the FH is not as unique as it used to be.

You missed the point. As I said, Rafa's FH is unique not just because of his topspin but also his precision. This is something that sets him apart from Sock or maybe Muster.

Its just like Fed and now Novak, whose FHs may not be the quickest or heaviest among the more classic FHs, but because of their precision, set theirs apart from the others' who hit similar FHs.

socal1976 wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Thank YOU Lydian...I wanted to answer that load of codswallop but
could not quite muster the enthusiasm and wherewithal.. To quote Borg to bolster the argument is laughable when all those who followed his career knew his reasons for leaving the game as early as he did.. Rafa's decline is all about Rafa nothing more nothing less.. unless you want to believe that when Djokovic goes off the boil and needs to retire that the game has moved on without him But nooo of course not Novak is like the Duracell Bunny

Cool codswallop, my posts have never been thus complimented. Thank you. Why do you always bring up Djokovic? This is about Nadal and his terrible loss of form. Its funny, I often respond to people's posts on Djokovic but less often do I bring up myself. We are analyzing the reasons for his loss of form, and your hypersensitive reading of my posts which in no way was disrespectful to Nadal maybe tells us a lot more about your own jealousy towards Novak's success when compared with your own favorite's current poor form. Let me remind you that I have often defended Nadal and have never been those that either write him off or unfairly smear and criticize him. That doesn't make my opinion on his recent form any less or more valid. Its not a swipe at Nadal at all but an attempt to analyze his game and his recent form. Pretty tame actually to be honest so I don't know why it has incited you and Lydian so much. And what does any of this have to do with Djokovic, the thread is not on him and I only mentioned him in passing in a group of players.

I totally disagree your post , though veiled, WAS disrespectful of Nadal.. you fool no one Socal you are not being clever just insidious. The more successful your hero becomes the more egotistic you get.. being jealous of Novak is quite ridiculous, because it does not help Rafa's case  his success has nothing to do with Rafa's decline so don't  kid yourself.
Your pomposity is making you a bore.. your posts are not worth reading anymore.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:You missed the point. As I said, Rafa's FH is unique not just because of his topspin but also his precision.  This is something that sets him apart from Sock or maybe Muster.

Its just like Fed and now Novak, whose FHs may not be the quickest or heaviest among the more classic FHs, but because of their precision, set theirs apart from the others'  who hit similar FHs.

You mean that legendary precision that would have him drop the forehand two feet inside the service line when he was off? Come on, nothing particularly unique about his precision on the forehand. He doesn't hit many errors on the wing because he have a lot of margin, but I can't think of anyone who has commented on Nadal's FH and claimed that its his awesome precision that sets him apart from the rest. They talk about how he hits it with more spin and elevation and how he runs up the RPM charts. I have never heard anyone claim that the most unique thing about the Nadal FH is precision. Frankly, I would take the Sock FH in your standard neutral rally from a stationary or near stationary position. Overall his FH isn't as good because he doesn't pass, hit on the run, or return as well as Nadal. But he hits more winners with and hits it harder and heavier if he can get his feet set on the FH for Sock. The big weapon in his FH and the unique thing of it was the spin, you can just make up that precision was what made it unique but every other commentator who ever mentioned it talks about its margin, angle, elevation, heaviness, all of which are a function of his spin. And as I have shown you that massive spin isn't as unique as it once was.

I mean I love Lydian of all people arguing with me about the spin level of the tour as whole catching up with Nadal. I mean isn't this the biggest critique of all the variety and the game needs changing crowd? The game is too spin oriented, too power oriented, and players are hitting with more spin and being safer and not coming in and attacking. Now all of sudden I make an argument that the spin level on tour is such that Nadal's FH isn't quite as unique as it once was and all of sudden the topspin dominated tour that gets shredded in every thread doesn't exist. Why no one is hitting with more spin if Socal is arguing it we must argue the opposite.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Thank YOU Lydian...I wanted to answer that load of codswallop but
could not quite muster the enthusiasm and wherewithal.. To quote Borg to bolster the argument is laughable when all those who followed his career knew his reasons for leaving the game as early as he did.. Rafa's decline is all about Rafa nothing more nothing less.. unless you want to believe that when Djokovic goes off the boil and needs to retire that the game has moved on without him But nooo of course not Novak is like the Duracell Bunny

Cool codswallop, my posts have never been thus complimented. Thank you. Why do you always bring up Djokovic? This is about Nadal and his terrible loss of form. Its funny, I often respond to people's posts on Djokovic but less often do I bring up myself. We are analyzing the reasons for his loss of form, and your hypersensitive reading of my posts which in no way was disrespectful to Nadal maybe tells us a lot more about your own jealousy towards Novak's success when compared with your own favorite's current poor form. Let me remind you that I have often defended Nadal and have never been those that either write him off or unfairly smear and criticize him. That doesn't make my opinion on his recent form any less or more valid. Its not a swipe at Nadal at all but an attempt to analyze his game and his recent form. Pretty tame actually to be honest so I don't know why it has incited you and Lydian so much. And what does any of this have to do with Djokovic, the thread is not on him and I only mentioned him in passing in a group of players.

I totally disagree your post , though veiled, WAS disrespectful of Nadal.. you fool no one Socal you are not being clever just insidious. The more successful your hero becomes the more egotistic you get.. being jealous of Novak is quite ridiculous, because it does not help Rafa's case  his success  has nothing to do with Rafa's decline so don't  kid yourself.
Your pomposity is making you a bore.. your posts are not worth reading anymore.

And your silly hysterical posts where you have to chop off anyone's head who takes a sideways glance has long made you bore. So please stop reading my posts and won't miss much by ignoring your shrill defenses of Nadal against people who aren't disrespecting him and are making simple observations. Oh I am insidious I am sure. Your envy and animosity towards me and Djokovic, is not surprising considering how badly Nadal has fallen off. Similar to you asinine arguments about Novak purposefully and intentionally going after ball kids. My observations on Nadal have no hidden agenda other than analyzing his tennis, if you don't agree fine, but I challenge anyone to find the disrespectfulness in my arguments about Nadal. Where is the specific text where I slammed him or was disrespectful? Produce it now if you have the courage of convictions or as usual are you just going to do your hysterical momma bear defense of Nadal where you see sleights and attacks where none exist. What exactly did I say that was disrespectful of Nadal, either put up or shut up.

And you try telling us that you are a LAWYER   really?????
Im sure you would get slung out for that infantile outburst if it were in the courtroom.. You sound like an irate mother who is defending her little boy in the school playground.

You protest too much me thinks.. grow up

Haddie-nuff wrote:And you try telling us that you are a LAWYER   really?????
Im sure you would get slung out for that infantile outburst if it were in the courtroom.. You sound like an irate mother who is defending her little boy in the school playground.

You protest too much me thinks.. grow up

More silly things that aren't germane to the discussion what does my employment status matter to tennis and the arguments I am making. What I do have a problem is with your hypocrisy. You say way nastier and more disrespectful things about Novak, and me and my posts, then I have ever said about Nadal. Yet somehow I am the one being disrespectful? Please tell me Haddie how my contention that maybe the tour has caught up to Nadal's tactics and style as part, not all of his issues but part of his issues is somehow disrespectful of your Spanish baby cub? Wait a minute if I say Djokovic hits overhands badly on occasion or the tour has become more adept at handling Nadal's spin how exactly is that disrespectful? You are way more sniping in your commentary to posters and players you don't like. So your last response to try to turn this discussion off when it has only served to innumerate your own hypocrisy. Its funny but your shrill envy of Djokovic's success is literally oozing out of your posts with sarcastic references to the energizer bunny etc. Nobody was even talking about Djokovic until you brought him up and made a big deal of him. The thread was on Nadal Haddie not on my job or on your bizarre need to defend Nadal against someone who is supposedly (lol!) disrespecting him by saying that the tour has maybe caught up to his style as part of his problem, not all of it but part of it. Oh the shock and horror, what a terrible crime I have committed against your poor Spanish Adonis.

Come on Socal, didnt you see Rafa's shots hitting right on the baseline or at the corners when they looked like they're going out??

You only remember Rafa's short balls but conveniently forget those balls that dipped just right on the baseline. They talked about his topspin and that included his precision shots. Its not just Fed or Novak who can hit precision shots, you clearly have not watch that many Rafa matches to have missed out those.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Come on Socal, didnt you see Rafa's shots hitting right on the baseline or at the corners when they looked like they're going out??

You only remember Rafa's short balls but conveniently forget those balls that dipped just right on the baseline.  They talked about his topspin and that included his precision shots.  Its not just Fed or Novak who can hit precision shots, you clearly have not watch that many Rafa matches to have missed out those.

BLB, I saw many great shots and more. My point is that this idea that it is his precision that makes his forehand unique and not the thing that every single commentator mentions the topspin and weight of shot is a bizarre reading of Nadal's FH. Ever since I have been watching Nadal play people have been talking about his spin on the FH not his precision. Now you claim the spin wasn't what was unique but the precision. Funny, Lydian another Nadal fan who I have great respect for has also noted how Nadal's RPMs and weight of shot was unique factor in his forehand. Just like every other commentator who sees his ball blow up off the court with massive kick has commentated on the same thing. Your argument is like someone claiming that Ann Margaret was world reknowned in her heyday for her conversational skill, I am sure she was a great conversationalist, but what got her famous was her big rack and awesome body not her knowledge of daily events. I am sure she had a great rack and was a good conversationalist. Just like Ann Margaret was known for her gravity defying tatas in her prime and not her conversational skills Nadal is known on his FH for his spin, and more precisely the point I was making is that more of the tour is comfortable and more used to that kind of spin.

I really dont know what you're getting at. If Rafa has not lost some of his power (age plus change of balls used), we would still be marvelling at his awesome topspin FH.( watch his 2012 matches on clay and see how he hit with penetration and hitting the corners forcing Novak on his backfoot).

Rafa need not hit the lines all the time, just like Fed was hitting within safe margins and not needing to go for the lines all the time. The thing that people criticized Rafa's FH about was that it cleared the net at a safe margin because of the spin, but that came at a price of risking short balls which his opponents could attack more readily.

Like I said, the players now hit harder and flatter because of different balls used. Rafa himself said that, that the balls these days dont take to spin that well, which, I'm repeating again, explains why Rafa is flattening his shots these days.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:I really dont know what you're getting at.  If Rafa has not lost some of his power (age plus change of balls used), we would still be marvelling at his awesome topspin FH.( watch his 2012 matches on clay and see how he hit with penetration and hitting the corners forcing Novak on his backfoot).

Rafa need not hit the lines all the time, just like Fed was hitting within safe margins and not needing to go for the lines all the time. The thing that people criticized Rafa's FH about was that it cleared the net at a safe margin because of the spin, but that came at a price of risking short balls which his opponents could attack more readily.

Like I said, the players now hit harder and flatter because of different balls used.  Rafa himself said that, that the balls these days dont take to spin that well, which, I'm repeating again, explains why Rafa is flattening his shots these days.

Then why did he announce a racquet change to be able to generate more spin? You don't get it, or you don't want to. The argument is spin levels on tour are going up over the years and that therefore that makes Nadal's spin levels less unique. As evidenced, by the fact that we see a player who can match him in RPMs while exceeding him in MPHs. If you are the only one who hits an average 3300 rpm per forehand your more unique than if someone else does it to, and other players also are also are lifting the rpms as well but not to that extent. By definition if two guys are doing it as opposed to one, then the guy who was hitting 3300 rpm by himself is less uniqe.

Socal, Rafa's FH is known for his rpm topspin and his heavy shots. I do not dispute that. Also it bounced high on clay making it hard to counter against. Both Muster and now Sock could generate the same spin but did they have the same effect as Rafa's? Again, how often we could see Rafa during his heydays hitting those DTL or CC FHs (including those running FHs) just touching the lines, that to me sets him apart from the likes of Muster and Sock.

Socal, the racket or string changes is to counter the loss of power when Rafa is older now. Why do you think he's hitting flatter shots now?

I seriously dont know what you are arguing about. Do you think Rafa's FH is just about RPM on his topspin? If that's the case where's the uniqueness when in the past Muster was also hitting his topspin in that range? You want to compare their FHs in terms of damages they can do? For that matter Sock's too?

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Socal, Rafa's FH is known for his rpm topspin and his heavy shots. I do not dispute that.  Also it bounced high on clay making it hard to counter against. Both Muster and now Sock could  generate the same spin but did they have the same effect as Rafa's? Again, how often we could see Rafa during his heydays hitting those DTL or CC FHs (including those running FHs) just touching the lines, that to me sets him apart from the likes of Muster and Sock.

Did you miss the part I said Nadal has a better FH because he can pass, hit on the run, and return better than Sock that is why his FH is better? Sock actually if stationary or near stationary has the better FH, but that is really not determinative because you don't hit many of those on the ATP tour where pretty much the vast majority of shots involve you being in motion under some level of duress. Here maybe this will make you feel better. The same analogy can be made to Benoit Paire and Novak's BH. Benoit Paire hits more winners and has a more explosive backhand than Novak. He probably hits it with more MPHs on the gun when both max out. Would I take Paire's BH over Novak's? Not on your life. Because similar in analogy to the Sock v. Nadal FH Novak hits his BH way better on the return, way better on the pass, and way better under duress. Does that make you feel better now? Inferior players can have skills or shots that are better than better players. There is no argument who is the better player nadal or Sock, or even who has the better FH. But objectively, I didn't measure it the shot spot people did, Sock's FH is just as heavy. And I have watched both play Sock hits more winners with it as well.

I would say Rafa's FH was more devastating on clay than Sock's, even in 2015 his poorest season so far, he was still having more winners vs Sock in their FO match. On the quicker HCs of Beijing, Sock's more damaging, more to fo with his pace than the topspin, imo.

socal1976 wrote:

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Agree with Lydian.  The game has past him by? Nah, he was still beating a boatload of them end of last year. Surely Verdasco, Fog, Cuevres, Feli, Tsonga are no new kid on the block! Rafa did beat Sock at FO last year despite Rafa's poor form and Sock's rpm topspin. Even Raonic and Thiem who beat him had to go the distance and Rafa even had MP ( vs Thiem).

Its more about Rafa and his bad form than these other players.  I do think the balls in use play a part too. Rafa did mention the balls now are more 'hollow' and dont take to topspin well, which may explain well he's practicing to hit flatter shots (had successes at the IPTL and Abu Dhabi exhos) but he couldnt bring that to his tour matches for some reasons.

He was playing well at WTF last year and at Abu Dhabi exho this year, so its not like he doesnt have the game anymore ( to beat the top guys not named Novak), its a matter of his own belief, nerve and feeling the pressure to win to convince himself and others.

I watched the Sock match last year, Rafa got lucky Sock had the worst serving day I have ever seen him have with double faults and low percentage and yet it was 4 tough sets on clay. If anything if you watched that match you would have seen both guys hitting huge forehands but really it was Sock's FH that was more telling. He choked a bit and couldn't hit the broadside of the barn with his first serve. That being said it was not an easy win for anyone watched  that match would know. If anything Sock's FH was much more lethal in a neutral rally than Nadal's, just a massive choke job by the younger less experienced Sock.

Yeah we get the whole confidence thing, obviously that plays a role. Nobody is saying that he isn't suffering from a lack of confidence. But is it a lack of confidence simply due to a poor run of form or because he himself knows that he isn't the same player physically or technically. I mean confidence isn't completely separated from ability and your level. I mean I can play Roger Federer and be confident to win, but I don't have the skill set or the shots or athleticism to compete, so what? The confidence comes from knowing you can play at the highest levels, it isn't a tonic or something you can take. If you keep having poor results it certainly won't fix itself. He has to be able to hurt people with his shots and he isn't consistently able to do it. And I would also posit that one factor is that Nadal's weight of shot is not as unique as it once was and players are more used to and better equipped at handling it. I personally think all of these factors including his own loss of step physically is a big part of it. His physicality and weight of shot are just not as unique and as big and advantage as they one were.

Tenez always said that Rafa's nerve in matches stemmed from his certainty that he could eventually run the opponent into the ground and that once that went so would the fabled strong nerve. I think he got banned for it.

Nah, I didnt see that happening when he couldnt outlast Novak when Novak seemed to be the fitter guy esp during 2011, and in the end he did turn things around, during 2012-2013.

His recent slump is due more to his fear of further breakdown of his body, not because he couldnt outlast his opponent.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Read, its the balls in use that dont take to topspin as much as before, which may explain why more and more youngsters are blurgeoning the ball than doing anything else.

So, Rafa was/is practising to flatten his shots more.  If you've watched his exho matches at the beginning of this year, you would have noticed that he's hitting flatter with more penetration and that's how he beat Ferrer and Raonic. They were all hitting well, as they took Abu Dhabi as proper warm up for the AO, not those exho for exho sake kind of matches.

Rafa's topspin is/was unique not just for topspin sake, its his precision with the heavy shots that separates him from the likes of Sock. Rafa was also not blurgeoning the ball, with raw power, its not his adopted style,not hitting as hard as the other guys. Notice that back in 2004, he was hitting flatter FHs that went 100 mph or above,clearly he had the raw power to do so, its just that he preferred to hit with more topspin during and after 2005 for the sake of having successes on clay.

Muster also hit with high rpm topspin but why everyone talked about Rafa being unique but not Muster? Nobody talked about Sock and his topspin FH that much too.

So now it's the balls... You've mentioned that several times in this thread. You have a different theory every week. This grasping of straws is comical.

You do know that different tournaments use different manufacturers and different type balls based on who that tournaments ball sponsor is, right?. There is no uniform ball on the tour and no uniform ball behavior- just some general variance guidelines which has not changed recently.. Penn, Slazenger, Wilson, Dunlop,etc all provide balls for different tournaments. Sometimes an individual tournament might switch sponsors from one year to the other. I could see Nadal mentioning that at a certain tournament the balls played differently than the year before, or that he had to adjust to the balls at this particular tournament because they play differently than the balls he played with the week before. Players mention this all the time "I have to get used to the new conditions, the new balls,etc"

However it is ludicrous to claim as you are, and I sure can't find any mention anywhere that all the individual manufacuters have suddenly altered their balls and the individual tournaments have changed their balls so that they "don't take topspin as much as before" That just defies any realistic info out there. Please provide a link to some proof that over the past year and a half of Nadals poor performances that the tour is using balls "that don't take as much topspin as before" Just show me a link that shows that 3 tourmanents have done so and I will be satisfied you are correct.

Otherwise, it's a false statement on your part and taking something Nadal said out of context.

lol BB...I believe T got banned for inciting people to join his forum...but in any case the argument was always a fair one, all competitors in most sports draw strength and advantage from knowing they're physically superior to their opponents. This has been a feature of sports in modern times. However, his argument re tennis was rather one-sided and didn't take into account other skill sets...after all a 14 time GS champion is JUST fit/stronger than most, he has to be able to play a little too. Otherwise every Verdasco-type player would be winning slams.

Socal, I don't get your point about the forehand. Ok Sock has similar FH rpm to Rafa - so what? He ISNT Rafa, nor never will be. Just because he has a similar FH is not a sign that the game has moved on, just that he's another outlier. Show me a chart of players that illustrates how players are in general increasing their RPMs towards Rafa level. Of course, RPMs are generally going up but much of that is string and racquet tech related. Not many have the genetic, fast twitch fibres and short stretch cycles (I've talked about this many times) that Rafa has. Just like many didn't have Roddick's similar make up but from a serve perspective. These one-offs come along...serve, FH, BH, etc. What makes the best stand out is their mind...but you cant create a winning mind just from great shots...or great fitness...it has to all be related to innate talent. All these players being touted as the next great step, or superseding Rafa, have in reality not the same level of talent - otherwise they would be breaking through in a big way. After all, at 23 yo what has Sock achieved in singles yet?

Truffin, I do not have a different theory every week. I said the same thing all the time!

See the article at www.elespanol.com/deportes/20160120.

Its in Spanish but I read a translation of it snd its titled 'I'm not afraid of my expiry date' In that article Rafa talked about the balls used and the recent changes.

Also, Rafa played poorly regardless of balls used. Please do not assume that I'm giving excuses for his poor performances.

I'm just seeing Rafa making adjustments to the way he played in exhos but somehow couldnt bring all those to his atp matches.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Truffin, I do not have a different theory every week.  I said the same thing all the time!

See the article at www.elespanol.com/deportes/20160120.

Its in Spanish but I read a translation of it snd its titled 'I'm not afraid of my expiry date'  In that article Rafa talked about the balls used and the recent changes.

Your link does not work for me. Please give me the exact quote-- but again-  Rafa saying it isn't enough- show me where the tour and the tournaments have changed the balls to not take spin as well.    Wilson, Pen, Dunlop have all changed?  IF so, there will be some statement somewhere.    

I'm going to take a pretty good guess that Nadal is not claiming this either- that he is talking about a specific tournament and maybe the translation makes it sound differently or lack of context alters what is meant.   Even if he is making a claim (which I highly doubt he is) all the balls have changed - only Nadal saying it isn't good enough either-  a massive major change to the balls the tours used would be talked about in multiple sources and multiple players. Since you keep claiming this as one of the reasons for Rafa's struggles, please provide even 1 outside source proving this beyond one mention by nadal in a translated source. I don't think that should be hard or is too much to ask for if true.

lydian wrote:lol BB...I believe T got banned for inciting people to join his forum...but in any case the argument was always a fair one, all competitors in most sports draw strength and advantage from knowing they're physically superior to their opponents. This has been a feature of sports in modern times. However, his argument re tennis was rather one-sided and didn't take into account other skill sets...after all a 14 time GS champion is JUST fit/stronger than most, he has to be able to play a little too. Otherwise every Verdasco-type player would be winning slams.

Socal, I don't get your point about the forehand. Ok Sock has similar FH rpm to Rafa - so what? He ISNT Rafa, nor never will be. Just because he has a similar FH is not a sign that the game has moved on, just that he's another outlier. Show me a chart of players that illustrates how players are in general increasing their RPMs towards Rafa level. Of course, RPMs are generally going up but much of that is string and racquet tech related. Not many have the genetic, fast twitch fibres and short stretch cycles (I've talked about this many times) that Rafa has. Just like many didn't have Roddick's similar make up but from a serve perspective. These one-offs come along...serve, FH, BH, etc. What makes the best stand out is their mind...but you cant create a winning mind just from great shots...or great fitness...it has to all be related to innate talent. All these players being touted as the next great step, or superseding Rafa, have in reality not the same level of talent - otherwise they would be breaking through in a big way. After all, at 23 yo what has Sock achieved in singles yet?

Well again you won't get any argument from me that Nadal has a better FH and is a better player. Why did I even bring him up in the first place? Well I brought him up as just an example of the fact that the WEIGHT of shot Nadal had is maybe something that players see more often over time and it doesn't impact them as much as it used to. In no way did I say he is a comparable talent. Although, I do the kid has a good future if he can stay healthy. The reason I discussed him was to show that the weight of Nadal's shot is not as unique as other players are able to duplicate and generate both the pace and spin he does. Again this not subjective the shot spot people measured both guy's FHs through Indian Wells last year and those are the results I published. For years you told us how the weight of shot was so far off the charts, it was, now others are going up those charts and therefore the tour as a whole sees that kind of weight more often and can adjust their tactics and technique to it.

1. I agree he is suffering from confidence or lack of it.

2. He isn't physically the same player in terms of movement

3. Part of his issues also could be that people have learned to deal more effectively with the weight of shot on tour where we have seen RPM levels go up over the last decade or so. Its not the only reason for his problems, and probably not the main one but I think it probably is part of the equation.

That is my whole argument and Sock was used to show that Nadal's weight of shot is not as unique as it was in 05-08 lets say when he first broke into superstardom.

What are you talking about? Rafa in the article talked about the changes in the balls used. He's the one playing out there so he's the one feeling the balls.

Try the same link but followed with /95990463_0.html

I suppose that's the article no.

I love it one hand we have the variety people saying the balls are too spiny and heavy, and we got BLB now saying that the balls were changed so they don't take spin as well. I mean logical both propositions can not be true simultaneously. Balls that are smaller and harder like the old ball won't take as much spin because to hit spin you need more dwell on the strings and you need the ball to crush or deform more on impact. So we have the fast condition fans telling us the balls are too big and soft, and then we got the Nadal fans saying that the balls don't take spin as well. I mean I don't know who to argue against without wrapping myself into some sort of logical pretzel. Can something be both black and white, positive and negative, both salty and needs salt?

Read what Nadal says, not any group of fans say.

All this talk of big, soft, deformed balls is making me feel really uncomfortable.

lydian wrote:lol BB...I believe T got banned for inciting people to join his forum...but in any case the argument was always a fair one, all competitors in most sports draw strength and advantage from knowing they're physically superior to their opponents.

I think he was back, incognito, some time back. Hell I may even be him for all I know!

By the way, do you think it's too late in this thread to mention that some of us have been saying Rafa hasn't been the player he was for a good few years now?

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Read what Nadal says, not any group of fans say.

Again- NAdal saying it- one player. Yet, not one single mention from anyone else, no source showing a change by the manufacturers, no atp source. I'll ask again- show us one single source outside of one brief mention by Nadal.

I know you hang on his every word, but come on.............

Past changes to the size of the balls, makes,etc were well known and announced. Hear we have a phantom change mentioned by only Nadal in one interview and no one else.. This is a flimsy excuse by you to insinuate in any way that Nadals struggles are related.

Truffin, I'm talking about NADAL, not here arguing about what balls, what brand of balls they use! Please stay in context.

I say it again, and I'm getting very irritated - PLS DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF GIVING ANY EXCUSE ABOUT NADAL'S LOSSES!!!!!

Nadal plays like crap, everyone can see it. Only his camp knows what happen. He does not need me to give excuses on his behalf!!!!!

You are making it unpleasant for me to post anything here! Stay away from my posts!

bogbrush wrote:

lydian wrote:lol BB...I believe T got banned for inciting people to join his forum...but in any case the argument was always a fair one, all competitors in most sports draw strength and advantage from knowing they're physically superior to their opponents.

I think he was back, incognito, some time back. Hell I may even be him for all I know!

By the way, do you think it's too late in this thread to mention that some of us have been saying Rafa hasn't been the player he was for a good few years now?

Yes we know you have been telling us Fed is old since 2009 and Rafa since I think the start of 2011 was not the same player, you know when Novak started winning, odd that two years later he went on such a rampage I think in 2013. So in the I told you so sweepstakes my dear BB I wouldn't raising my head up in this case if I were you.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Truffin, I'm talking about NADAL, not here arguing about what balls, what brand of balls they use!  Please stay in context.

I say it again, and I'm getting very irritated - PLS DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF GIVING ANY EXCUSE ABOUT NADAL'S LOSSES!!!!!

Nadal plays like crap, everyone can see it. Only his camp knows what happen. He does not need me to give excuses on his behalf!!!!!

You are making it unpleasant for me to post anything here! Stay away from my posts!

Don't get bent out of shape, we like your energy and enthusiasm. This is a tough tennis room don't get upset over this. Thanks to the hardworking mods and my own forgiving ghandiesque nature this place is now a safe and peaceful place for all of us to tell each other that one or the other person doesn't know what they are talking about. People are going to disagree with you vehemently on any statement you make on here it happens to all of us, think of it as a right of passage and pretty fun.

Anyone can disagree, but pls dont accuse others of anything, that's the thing I'm peed with!