6N Rugby - Italy v England

First topic message reminder :

England team to face Italy - Sunday

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 28 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 67 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 57 caps)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 11 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 44 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 63 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 22 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 36 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 44 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 4 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 38 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 29 caps)
20 Maro Itoje (Saracens, uncapped)
21 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 1 cap)
22 Danny Care (Harlequins, 54 caps)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 19 caps)

The line-out is what's stopping Itoje covering second row from the bench no doubt about that.

The fact that Jones started an ill Launchbury against Scotland suggests he views him very highly. He has also stated fairly unequivocally that Kruis is one of his starting locks. If it weren't for the line-out misfiring then I reckon Itoje would be covering lock from the bench against Ireland with Kruis and Launchbury starting.

As for most the throws going to Kruis - it seems that is the plan in the line-out from Borthwick. It's what the boks have done for years now. Everyone knows that one player will take 4/5 throws in the middle of the line, however they back themselves to execute their basics and win the ball anyway. Against Italy our pack messed up their basics. I'd much rather see a simpler line-out such as this be used by us than the over-complicated mess seen in the RWC though.

Parisse’s a great athlete, but he doesn’t like the rough stuff. Seems to pass before taking contact every time. Kinda the opposite type of 8 to Billy. And tbh I’d rather have Billy.

I thought Youngs was a bit meh – definitely not MOTM. Pretty sure MOTM seems to have taken on an ironic twist these days.

Hope Watson’s ok – he seemed to be clutching his chest in the 2nd half.

I had England sneaking a 2nd before the start, but given how average every side looks at the moment, I can’t see past an England championship win.

13 penalties against England. A couple of players need to sit down eyeball to eyeball with Eddie and explain why they gave away the penalties they did. Oh and why they keep doing it week after week. Cole comes to mind as being one of the thickest players ever to play at top level.

I don't know about thickest, but Cole does annoy me in that every game he seems to give away at least one penalty at the breakdown.

In general England's discipline has been poor so far, we need to be far better in the last 3.

England on paper gave Italy a thrashing,the bench in the last twenty minutes against
tiring legs was crucial,exactly to plan.
Italy are arguably the weakest side in the 6Ns,but have played well in the first two
matches.
To have to use the bench to cover injuries is unfortunate for any side as the cover
isn`t there when required.
Youngs as a running SH fine but his passing game is too slow,Care livened things up
BUT against tiring legs.
Italy were in the game for the first 60 the intercept losing them the game,there ball
retention was poor.they`d make a good move then lose it in contact.
Far too many penalties conceded,the lineout is about practice,lifters,blockers,timing
who jumps at 6 or 8 for England?
If it just comes down to defence and kicking Goals ,Ireland and Wales are still formidable,
and France seem to being just enough to win games.
Wonder who goes to 12 when Slade and Tuilagi are fit,assuming Joseph stays at 13.
As to the mercenaries bit Parents,place of birth,or 5 years residency,forget the grand parents bit.
NZ wanted ex AB`s to qualify for there PI countries when appropriate,but IRB said no.

Under Eddie, i would expect England to pay more attention to the first 60 minutes of the game and as is evidenced here, the fans will pay attention to the last 20.

englandglory4ever wrote:Cole comes to mind as being one of the thickest players ever to play at top level.

I assume that:

a) You have never met him
b) Like the commentators you ignored what the ref said and wrongly attributed one of the two penalties he was accused of.

king_carlos wrote:As for most the throws going to Kruis - it seems that is the plan in the line-out from Borthwick. It's what the boks have done for years now. Everyone knows that one player will take 4/5 throws in the middle of the line, however they back themselves to execute their basics and win the ball anyway. Against Italy our pack messed up their basics. I'd much rather see a simpler line-out such as this be used by us than the over-complicated mess seen in the RWC though.

It may be the plan but it is dumb not to change the plan when the lifters and the thrower are struggling. Of course he did change the plan slightly - he started calling really complicated throws but stills to himself.

Kruis is bright enough to have worked it out, plus Hartley as skipper and Lawes as a previous lineout caller should all have gotten together and spoken about it. Sadly they waited till half time for the coach to sort it out. I am worried that yet again we are imposing rigid plans on the players and not giving them the freedom to make changes as and when needed.

A very erratic and error strewn first 60 minutes for England against a probable wooden spoon team. Ireland, Wales and France could have been 15 points in front. Much to worry the coaches. Mistakes and penalties could lose the next games. Cole and Haskell, need to get a lot more lawful.

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:As for most the throws going to Kruis - it seems that is the plan in the line-out from Borthwick. It's what the boks have done for years now. Everyone knows that one player will take 4/5 throws in the middle of the line, however they back themselves to execute their basics and win the ball anyway. Against Italy our pack messed up their basics. I'd much rather see a simpler line-out such as this be used by us than the over-complicated mess seen in the RWC though.

It may be the plan but it is dumb not to change the plan when the lifters and the thrower are struggling. Of course he did change the plan slightly - he started calling really complicated throws but stills to himself.

Kruis is bright enough to have worked it out, plus Hartley as skipper and Lawes as a previous lineout caller should all have gotten together and spoken about it. Sadly they waited till half time for the coach to sort it out. I am worried that yet again we are imposing rigid plans on the players and not giving them the freedom to make changes as and when needed.

Agreed that more throws should have gone to Lawes when things malfunctioned. Given that Hartley fluffed a few throws early on that may have knocked confidence to change the plan.

As for rigid plans, hopefully it's a case of Kruis showing a bit of inexperience on this stage and not changing things up as required rather than having been told not to change tack unless instructed. As far as I know this is Kruis first season of calling the line-out in pretty much every game he plays, he will learn to change things such as that quicker when required.

I think that there seems scope for players to play as they like when it's on, i.e. Care with his chip through for Joseph. I just think that Jones want guys to prove they are good enough to play with freedom before he asks them too.

For years it seems we need to wait until half time to change things that clearly aren't working (most obvious example is not putting enough players into attacking rucks). Hopefully Jones will move us away from that but realises it can't be done over night (otherwise you get the Ashton effect of 2007)

Isn't it time someone put up the England v Ireland topic? Better do it quick as there might not be enough Ireland players to make a game of it if its left too late.

HammerofThunor wrote:For years it seems we need to wait until half time to change things that clearly aren't working (most obvious example is not putting enough players into attacking rucks). Hopefully Jones will move us away from that but realises it can't be done over night (otherwise you get the Ashton effect of 2007)

Quite. Pretty much any coach who isn't Brian Ashton starts by imposing structure, and then gradually giving the players more autonomy. The squad have to learn Plan A before they can learn Plan B. The 2003 vintage still needed the half time change up right up until 2003 and even then needed Woodward's intervention (through Catt and Leonard) to change tactics in the RWC knock out games.

We can hope that Eddie will get up that curve faster, partly because he knows the shortcuts, partly because he's beginning with a squad that has already travelled part way along that journey. But it'll still take time. Setpiece and defence first (promising so far but needs to be tested against Ireland and Wales), then the Plan A structure, then a bit more freedom to play, then Plan B.