No Wales player has ever gone to France and improved!

First topic message reminder :

According to Warren Gatland, no player has gone to France and improved, I think he is wrong. Stephen Jones and Gareth Thomas are testament to that. Those two came back much better than before they left, also, I reckon Charteris has improved since he has been over there, some times I really do wonder what comes out of his mouth.

Here's a link:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/no-wales-player-ever-gone-10878048

And for those of you who do not like clicking onto links:-

No Wales player has ever gone to France and improved! Warren Gatland's honest verdict.

Gatland is thrilled that Jonathan Davies is returning to Wales after two years with Clermont.

Warren Gatland maintains no Wales players have improved from going out to ply their trade in France.
A host of Welsh stars have headed across the Channel in recent years, but Gatland doesn’t believe any of them have come back better players.
The Kiwi coach made his comments while welcoming the fact that Lions centre Jonathan Davies will be rejoining the Scarlets next season after two years with Clermont Auvergne.

Davies, who is back on the international stage after recovering from a serious knee injury, will win his 50th Welsh cap this weekend when he lines up against Scotland at the Principality Stadium.
Gatland feels the 27-year-old will only benefit in Test terms from his switch back to the Scarlets.

“The great thing is he is coming home,” said Gatland.
“The experience we have had, I don’t believe any of our players have improved going to France.

“I don’t think any of them have come back better players. So the fact Jonathan has decided to come back home and we can have more hands on with him and work with him, hopefully we will see him getting back to where he was and improving his game.

“He has recovered from quite a significant injury and wasn’t involved in the World Cup, so hopefully he will stay injury free for as long as possible. He has got hopefully another 50 caps in him if he can say fit.”
Reflecting on the player’s half-century milestone, Gatland added: “It’s a great achievement for him to have done that and a great reward.

“It’s great to see him reach his 50th cap and continue his midfield partnership with Jamie, which has been pretty special for us over a number of years.
“Jonathan has been back for a while in rugby and had a few club games under his belt. The game for him last weekend against Ireland would have been good and I thought he showed a couple of nice touches, with a couple of nice little kicks-through that put Ireland on the back foot and under a bit of pressure.
“Having that left foot as an option for us is good. He knows there are a few things to work on in his game and hopefully he has a big one.”

fa0019 wrote:The Ospreys in the mid 00s had as good a team on paper as anyone... think they got to a single QF, thats it.

They won the pro 12 a few times and in doing so beat the European champions in their own back yard.

GunsGerms wrote:that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world rather than through development. They are the parasite of European rugby. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

When the Irish were winning the competition, they were outspending the French.

Only once the French salary cap went up did the Irish stop winning it.

The deduction from this series of events is obvious.

fa0019 wrote:The Ospreys in the mid 00s had as good a team on paper as anyone... think they got to a single QF, thats it.

Where they (unfairly) lost to a better funded Biarritz team.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Haha. The teams in France aren't better at all. Ask anyone that has played for a French club or coached in France, they are a shambles when it comes to organisation and coaching. Buying success isn't the same as being a really good team.

So ASM under Schmidt and Cotter were a 'shambles'?

Schmidt and Cotter aren't in France now. Foreign coaches usually don't last that long and don't make that much an impact due to the ingrained maladministration of French clubs. Cheika's tenure in Stade will tell you all you need to know.

GunsGerms wrote:Yes so by your logic playing against those Irish teams they will naturally improve, no?

Welsh teams have made the final once and have had a number of teams in the semis. Wales has a much smaller pool of talent than France so their players are spread a little thinner across their four teams especially because Welsh teams have historically lost more players to England due to its proximity and to France mainly due to poor foresight on behalf of the WRU not to offer central contracts and other initiatives to encourage Welsh players to stay in Wales. That is partially the reason.

Irish players are much less likely to leave Ireland.

Its more complicated. Rugby is not football that way. Players play a lot of games in France, its a very physical league. The setup is not built around the union etc etc etc.
Players have improved however sometimes it depends on the circumstances.  Guys like Sexton who never wanted to go... not exactly rocket science to suggest why he didn't improve. Lydiate... he wasn't even getting picked so no wonder too.

Is the French league better... difficult to argue against. Does it make players better, never argued it did just threw it out there whether or not it was true or not. Guys like Stephen Jones and Gareth Thomas certainly did but that was 10 years ago and perhaps because then French clubs were far more professional.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world rather than through development. They are the parasite of European rugby. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

When the Irish were winning the competition, they were outspending the French.

Only once the French salary cap went up did the Irish stop winning it.

The deduction from this series of events is obvious.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion when the provinces accounts and player salaries aren't publically available. French salaries have always eclipsed Irish ones. The reason Irish teams cant compete is down to the restructuring of the European cup has tipped the financial balance even further in favour of the English and French clubs.

GunsGerms wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world rather than through development. They are the parasite of European rugby. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

When the Irish were winning the competition, they were outspending the French.

Only once the French salary cap went up did the Irish stop winning it.

The deduction from this series of events is obvious.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion when the provinces accounts and player salaries aren't publically available. French salaries have always eclipsed Irish ones. The reason Irish teams cant compete is down to the restructuring of the European cup has tipped the financial balance even further in favour of the English and French clubs.

Isn't it something to do with the Irish tax system? Sportsman get a huge tax rebate once they retire in Ireland?

GunsGerms wrote:
Schmidt and Cotter aren't in France now. Foreign coaches usually don't last that long and don't make that much an impact due to the ingrained maladministration of French clubs. Cheika's tenure in Stade will tell you all you need to know.

Will it? That seems like 2+2=34 logic, to me.

fa0019 wrote:
Isn't it something to do with the Irish tax system? Sportsman get a huge tax rebate once they retire in Ireland?

They used to, but now the law is changed so that they are eligible as long as they retire in the Euro zone.

PhilBB wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
Isn't it something to do with the Irish tax system? Sportsman get a huge tax rebate once they retire in Ireland?

They used to, but now the law is changed so that they are eligible as long as they retire in the Euro zone.

inc. GB or not because we're not in the Euro (but in the EU)?

Don't think they need to retire in Ireland any more to get the money back. I seem to remember someone saying it had changed.

GunsGerms wrote:

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion when the provinces accounts and player salaries aren't publically available. French salaries have always eclipsed Irish ones. The reason Irish teams cant compete is down to the restructuring of the European cup has tipped the financial balance even further in favour of the English and French clubs.

I've a copy of Leinster's 2012 branch accounts and I know what the IRFU provide in payments to the professional game, meaning your second sentence isn't true.

The reason Irish teams now cannot compete is the same reason why they could compete: money. They won it when the IRFU were spending the cash.

HammerofThunor wrote:Don't think they need to retire in Ireland any more to get the money back. I seem to remember someone saying it had changed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/steering-his-rugby-charges-in-the-right-direction-322206.html

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion when the provinces accounts and player salaries aren't publically available. French salaries have always eclipsed Irish ones. The reason Irish teams cant compete is down to the restructuring of the European cup has tipped the financial balance even further in favour of the English and French clubs.

I've a copy of Leinster's 2012 branch accounts and I know what the IRFU provide in payments to the professional game, meaning your second sentence isn't true.

The reason Irish teams now cannot compete is the same reason why they could compete: money. They won it when the IRFU were spending the cash.

So do a comparison between the top paid French players and the top paid Leinster players and tell me your findings?

The IRFU actually pays its players more now than ever. It is still nothing compared to French salaries.

GunsGerms wrote:

So do a comparison between the top paid French players and the top paid Leinster players and tell me your findings?

The IRFU actually pays its players more now than ever. It is still nothing compared to French salaries.

As you well know, individual salaries are not disclosed.

French salaries have increased dramatically in recent years. When Leinster and Munster were buying Howlett and co, O'Driscoll wasn't staying in Ireland for da craic.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Schmidt and Cotter aren't in France now. Foreign coaches usually don't last that long and don't make that much an impact due to the ingrained maladministration of French clubs. Cheika's tenure in Stade will tell you all you need to know.

Will it? That seems like 2+2=34 logic, to me.

Really how do you work that out?

Look at Cheika's professional career

Leinster: Heineken cup winner
Waratahs: Super 15 winner
Australia: World cup Finalist
Stade Francais: Bottom half of top 14 two years in a row. Ask yourself why such a good coach with a proven track record couldn't improve SFs form?

The answer is the culture in French club rugby proved too difficult to overcome.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

So do a comparison between the top paid French players and the top paid Leinster players and tell me your findings?

The IRFU actually pays its players more now than ever. It is still nothing compared to French salaries.

As you well know, individual salaries are not disclosed.

French salaries have increased dramatically in recent years. When Leinster and Munster were buying Howlett and co, O'Driscoll wasn't staying in Ireland for da craic.

Exactly so how on earth do you know Irish players were getting paid more? The answer is you haven't a clue. On occasion a player whose contract was up for renegotiation would have details of their contract reported by the press and it was never what they would be offered from abroad.

GunsGerms wrote:

Really how do you work that out?

Look at Cheika's professional career

Leinster: Heineken cup winner
Waratahs: Super 15 winner
Australia: World cup Finalist
Stade Francais: Bottom half of top 14 two years in a row. Ask yourself why such a good coach with a proven track record couldn't improve SFs form?

I work it out because Cheika failing at one club in turmoil, where the players took action against him, is not indicative of years of coaching at all Top 14 clubs.

Your evidence set is a little too small.

GunsGerms wrote:

Exactly so how on earth do you know Irish players were getting paid more? The answer is you haven't a clue. On occasion a player whose contract was up for renegotiation would have details of their contract reported by the press and it was never what they would be offered from abroad.

It's quite simple.

a) we know from the IRFU annual report what it spent on the professional game
b) we know from Branch accounts what the top up salaries were

Have a read: http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

As I said, if you think Howlett turned up to Cork for the love of the scenery or O'Driscoll stayed in Dublin for the love of Guinness, then you've sadly swallowed that Irish media narrative of de good ol local boys, doing it for der Mammy. Sorry to burst that bubble.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Really how do you work that out?

Look at Cheika's professional career

Leinster: Heineken cup winner
Waratahs: Super 15 winner
Australia: World cup Finalist
Stade Francais: Bottom half of top 14 two years in a row. Ask yourself why such a good coach with a proven track record couldn't improve SFs form?

I work it out because Cheika failing at one club in turmoil, where the players took action against him, is not indicative of years of coaching at all Top 14 clubs.

Your evidence set is a little too small.

Leinster, The Waratahs and Australia were in turmoil when he took over. He specialises in overhauling the culture present in a team. It proved too big a task in France as French clubs are so badly run and the maladministration is so ingrained.

GunsGerms wrote:

Leinster, The Waratahs and Australia were in turmoil when he took over. He specialises in overhauling the culture present in a team. It proved too big a task in France as French clubs are so badly run and the maladministration is so ingrained.

Yes, there you go again repeating that one Cheika failure equates to all French rugby being badly run.

You'll have to excuse me for not thinking that your evidence set is sufficient.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Exactly so how on earth do you know Irish players were getting paid more? The answer is you haven't a clue. On occasion a player whose contract was up for renegotiation would have details of their contract reported by the press and it was never what they would be offered from abroad.

It's quite simple.

a) we know from the IRFU annual report what it spent on the professional game
b) we know from Branch accounts what the top up salaries were

Have a read: http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

As I said, if you think Howlett turned up to Cork for the love of the scenery or O'Driscoll stayed in Dublin for the love of Guinness, then you've sadly swallowed that Irish media narrative of de good ol local boys, doing it for der Mammy. Sorry to burst that bubble.

Wow, please tell me you don't believe the amature calculations and conclusions in that piece? You really believe what you read in such a weak source? Its basically a fan forum.

Do you realise that a massive part of the IRFU's budget goes towards or has gone towards paying the high rent for the RDS, repaying the redevelopment of Thomond Park, the Aviva and raven Hill (part funded I think).

Unless you can show solid figure of what the top Irish earners were vs the top French it is basically waffle.

This source is much more reliable. Form 2012, the year Leinster won the Heineken cup:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/harsh-reality-hits-when-pay-cheques-dry-up-1.503839

But then, a club like Toulouse works off an annual budget of over €30 million. In Ireland, the four provinces combined wouldn’t come close to that.

This piece is actually put together by an Irish player (not a Welsh fan) and he says that any contract he was offered in France was €30k bigger that what Munster offered.

Your tin foil hat theories don't add up at all.

GunsGerms wrote:
Wow, please tell me you don't believe the amature calculations in that piece? You really believe what you read in such a weak source? Its basically a fan forum.

Do you realise that a massive part of the IRFU's budget goes towards or has gone towards paying the high rent for the RDS, repaying the redevelopment of Thomond Park, the Aviva and raven Hill (part funded I think).

Unless you can show solid figure of what the top Irish earners were vs the top French it is basically waffle.

This source is much more reliable. Form 2012, the year Leinster won the Heineken cup:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/harsh-reality-hits-when-pay-cheques-dry-up-1.503839

The calculations weren't done by an amateur.

I know full well who authored the piece and he's not an amateur.

You seem unaware that the rent for RDS or the redevelopment of Thomond Park is accounted for elsewhere in the annual report of the IRFU, not in the figures assigned to professional rugby.

Ravenhill was funded £14.7m by UK tax payers, by the way. All spent on an asset of a Dublin based company.

You keep trying to single this out for individual salaries whereas I'm pointing out to you that salaries are accounted for as a group figure. Trying to minimise the debate to individuals doesn't escape the audited spend of the IRFU, sorry.

In that article, Quinlan makes the stupid mistake of aligning budget with salaries. 'Budget' in French terms is turnover. To suggest that the four combined turnovers of the Provinces wouldn't meet €30m is a bizarre claim. Leinster's turnover last year was close to €15m. In your link, Quinlan notes that even he was only offered €30,000 a year more in France, where he would have been a marquee signing. His tax rebate for retiring in Ireland (at the time) would have eclipsed that €30k.

So, your article doesn't suggest anything other than Quinlan was offered €30k a year more in France. It seems that you like to take an individual example and extrapolate that as the norm (a la Cheika) whilst ignoring audited figures in the IRFU annual report.

and yet you haven't a shread of evidence that Irish players were paid more than their French counterparts.

By contrast as far back as 2011 the Daily Mail was reporting that four of the worlds top 5 rugby players played in the top 14.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-1377710/All-Blacks-star-Dan-Carter-worlds-best-paid-player-Racing-Metro-offer-4m-deal.html

You are basing your conclusions on some amature fan post on a fan forum.

PhilBB wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The Ospreys in the mid 00s had as good a team on paper as anyone... think they got to a single QF, thats it.

Where they (unfairly) lost to a better funded Biarritz team.

Just to add, we actually reached the QF of the HC, for 3 successive seasons, deservedly beaten by Saracens and Munster in the first 2 and as Phil said unfairly due to a totally incompetent Ref by a massively larger funded team.

offload wrote:As usual when Gatland opens his mouth he'd be better advised to close it.  It's obvious that he has to tow the party line but it's also ridiculous to suggest that no one has improved playing outside Wales.  Improvement is down to the individual and I bet most of the players who have played in better leagues against better oposition would argue that the experience has improved them.

I've seen plenty of evidence that some of our players have improved and none that suggests the coaches have improved.  They are still forcing the same old "run over them" approach that's 8 years old.  Howley might benefit from a stint abroad to learn what a line break looks like!

What players can you say that have left Wales under the Gatland era and really gone on to improve their game?

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

3 teams in the European cup QFs. How many does Wales have?

How many have Wales ever had? Have they had more than 3 in the QFs ever?

The Pro 12 has had six winners and the Top 14 has had 7 winners. Given that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

All 6 have been Irish though and for those 6 wins they've had many final appearances, many SF appearances, many QF appearances. Welsh teams hardly ever even get in the QFs.

But when we go up one to International Wales lead Ireland by 17 games and that's where it counts. Wales need to return to club rugby, get rid of foreign players and things would become better.

How on earth does getting rid of the foreign players improve the regions? Without arhip at tighthead wed have an awful scrum with jarvis

True Raven wrote:How on earth does getting rid of the foreign players improve the regions?  Without arhip at tighthead wed have an awful scrum with jarvis

Neither would returning to the club scene do any good.

RiscaGame wrote:

True Raven wrote:How on earth does getting rid of the foreign players improve the regions?  Without arhip at tighthead wed have an awful scrum with jarvis

Neither would returning to the club scene do any good.

And even in the club game there were still foreign players. As ever its the standard of the player that has to be right, not just signing a foreigner because he is one.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

offload wrote:As usual when Gatland opens his mouth he'd be better advised to close it.  It's obvious that he has to tow the party line but it's also ridiculous to suggest that no one has improved playing outside Wales.  Improvement is down to the individual and I bet most of the players who have played in better leagues against better oposition would argue that the experience has improved them.

I've seen plenty of evidence that some of our players have improved and none that suggests the coaches have improved.  They are still forcing the same old "run over them" approach that's 8 years old.  Howley might benefit from a stint abroad to learn what a line break looks like!

What players can you say that have left Wales under the Gatland era and really gone on to improve their game?

None, which is a pity as offload can no longer pointlessly rant.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

3 teams in the European cup QFs. How many does Wales have?

How many have Wales ever had? Have they had more than 3 in the QFs ever?

The Pro 12 has had six winners and the Top 14 has had 7 winners. Given that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

All 6 have been Irish though and for those 6 wins they've had many final appearances, many SF appearances, many QF appearances. Welsh teams hardly ever even get in the QFs.

What's your point exactly and how does it relate to the OP? With this and your last post you just seem to be wanting to slag off the Welsh teams. Easy for a Scot hiding in SA colours I guess....

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

Yes I understand his agenda, but these players are not dull, they see others going, making a good fist of it and in some cases improving, so I would suggest he doesn't come out publicly and say such nonsense.

I absolutely disagree, I am very proud to hear the Welsh coach quoted on that today and I hope he says a lot more on the matter too.

If you want to see Welsh regions compete at a decent level in professional rugby, if we want to see an improvement in our game we need to hold on to players.

Your opinion that players improve abroad is debateable. They play more games abroad, the club has only its self interest at heart.

If on a dual contract then the players are managed correctly. The more quality players the better the standard of Welsh regional rugby and the better chances those teams have of playing in the later stages in the European knock out rugby.

This improves Welsh rugby as a whole.

It also improves interest, will encourage fans to attend more games, bring more revenue and more potential future stars into the youth game.

If a Welsh player leaves regional rugby, to play for a foreign team, they would have to come back an exceptionally better player for it to be worth it in any way for the game in Wales.

There is not a single player that has gone abroad and made any more than little improvements to their game.

Absolutely spot on. Also don't forget the players that are going to England also, George North was a superstar when he left Wales, what went wrong?

True Raven wrote:How on earth does getting rid of the foreign players improve the regions?  Without arhip at tighthead wed have an awful scrum with jarvis

Never mind, poaching Rhodri Jones from the Scarlets is bound to sort that!