Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

[Luckless Pedestrian]

First topic message reminder :

With Warburton, I can only conclude that they like him as captain because of how he deals with referees. He's very respectful towards them.

[Steffan]

The minute the Gwent goes, as symbolic as it may be, it reverts to NRFC and I had and have no interest in supporting the B&A's

You mean to say that people are entitled to not support a region if their wider area is not represented in the name?

Strange that...as for the last 12 years I have been accused of being a bitter narrow minded Ponty supporter for not going down to watch the Blues and chanting "Cardiff"

[GavinDragon]

Each person can support who they want regardless of their wider area. But I suppose as a business you would like to think you could attract the support of the people within your immediate vacinity.

While each region's evolution has been different, the situtation is perhaps most delicate at the Blues. They forwent money to standalone, never expecting to inherit the pathway of the valleys rugby that came after the Warriors' demise.

I just do not see a solution to that particular issue and, as long as P Thomas is there, things will never change.

[RiscaGame]

The minute the Gwent goes, as symbolic as it may be, it reverts to NRFC and I had and have no interest in supporting the B&A's

You mean to say that people are entitled to not support a region if their wider area is not represented in the name?

Strange that...as for the last 12 years I have been accused of being a bitter narrow minded Ponty supporter for not going down to watch the Blues and chanting "Cardiff"

No, the issue is the sense of entitlement from some Ponty fans. As Gav is demonstrating, you have a choice of which pro team to support, even if you choose to support none.

Personally, I loved the "who let the dogs out" days, I just don't like the myth that playing in black and amber kit is the answer as some "Townies" like to suggest.

[GavinDragon]

The minute the Gwent goes, as symbolic as it may be, it reverts to NRFC and I had and have no interest in supporting the B&A's

You mean to say that people are entitled to not support a region if their wider area is not represented in the name?

Strange that...as for the last 12 years I have been accused of being a bitter narrow minded Ponty supporter for not going down to watch the Blues and chanting "Cardiff"

No, the issue is the sense of entitlement from some Ponty fans. As Gav is demonstrating, you have a choice of which pro team to support, even if you choose to support none.

Personally, I loved the "who let the dogs out" days, I just don't like the myth that playing in black and amber kit is the answer as some "Townies" like to suggest.

Ironically, I quite like the Black and Amber hoops. Just don't see why we can't incorporate that, and other clubs colours/heritage/traditions, under one regional, Gwent umbrella.

[Stone Motif]

As was the bit about what the Merthyr supporters were saying

What were they saying ?

About why are the WRU keeping the Dragons going. The guy was quite sensible to be fair and had a few of the Merthyr mini/youth boys with him. Well he was sensible apart from moments where he was shouting "You're just a small town in Merthyr"...but it was taken in jest. Wasn't you was it?

Nah, that wasn't me, but he does have a point, although he does not need to shout it. You can see the angst from the "disenfranchised" fans though, all they see is failure, season upon season, they do not see why, or how, they just see Welsh regions getting beat by their counterparts all too often. This is where it all starts.

That's because 'disenfranchised' = 'monumentally stupid'

[Stone Motif]

As was the bit about what the Merthyr supporters were saying

What were they saying ?

About why are the WRU keeping the Dragons going. The guy was quite sensible to be fair and had a few of the Merthyr mini/youth boys with him. Well he was sensible apart from moments where he was shouting "You're just a small town in Merthyr"...but it was taken in jest. Wasn't you was it?

But not sensible enough to realise that the WRU don't 'keep the Dragons going', clearly

[Stone Motif]

The more I see the malaise at the Dragons - primarily caused by a board not willing to invest, the more I think the threat of removal from the next RSA could be the threat needed for something to happen

In fairness, the four regions need to start upping their games, Dragons unfortunately at the moment are just the the worst of a bad bunch. It's a shame, as the passion for rugby in Gwent is clearly there, and with Ebbw Vale flying high in the Welsh prem rugby could be cool again in that neck of the woods if things were to be improved.

The gwent welsh premiership clubs are flying. Newport and Ebbw vying for top spot and Cross Keys and Bedwas pushing for the top half. I would seriously like to see the WP moved to summer. I would love to get down to RP or go up to EXP on a sunny day to watch a gwent derby.

Great for amateur rugby in Gwent. An irrelevance for the pro team.

[Stone Motif]

Thing is, he is correct in so far as only the present financial model works. So, unless the current money men behind the regions want the structure to change (never), or the WRU try to impose change (also extremely unlikely), things aren't going to change.

He is not correct. The fab four are supposed to be regions, well three of them are, Cardiff payed to stand alone. But the other three are supposed to represent regions, not the towns or cities they are based in.

Wrong

[Stone Motif]

The minute the Gwent goes, as symbolic as it may be, it reverts to NRFC and I had and have no interest in supporting the B&A's

You mean to say that people are entitled to not support a region if their wider area is not represented in the name?

Strange that...as for the last 12 years I have been accused of being a bitter narrow minded Ponty supporter for not going down to watch the Blues and chanting "Cardiff"

No, the issue is the sense of entitlement from some Ponty fans. As Gav is demonstrating, you have a choice of which pro team to support, even if you choose to support none.

Personally, I loved the "who let the dogs out" days, I just don't like the myth that playing in black and amber kit is the answer as some "Townies" like to suggest.

Ironically, I quite like the Black and Amber hoops. Just don't see why we can't incorporate that, and other clubs colours/heritage/traditions, under one regional, Gwent umbrella.

Because no one else wants to pay for the umbrella, and it's pis sing down

[GavinDragon]

Good evening my lil stoney mcstoneface - how are you today?

Nice to see you throwing absolutes around that you know aren't true. That is unlike you.

[Cardiff Dave]

FFS boys!

[GavinDragon]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/newport-gwent-dragons-unveil-radical-11143079

So, we are now officially up for sale I suppose. This decision will allow investors to come in without the previous money men's loans on the books. Should reduce the risk to any potential new investor. But it does beg the question - who is out there who would invest?

[Cardiff Dave]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/newport-gwent-dragons-unveil-radical-11143079

So, we are now officially up for sale I suppose. This decision will allow investors to come in without the previous money men's loans on the books. Should reduce the risk to any potential new investor. But it does beg the question - who is out there who would invest?

Will the actual sale be shown on Flog It?

[Cardiff Dave]

With new people running the show, will there be a new name for the team also?

[Cardiff Dave]

As was the bit about what the Merthyr supporters were saying

What were they saying ?

12 pints of Bow please barman.

[Cardiff Dave]

Griff I have been saying exactly that for ages now, because the regions have nothing to fear they have no reason to improve.

That's not what I'm saying though.  You're suggesting that they want to stay rubbish, which I disagree with.  I think they want to improve as much as any side.  All coaches, players, sports businessmen, etc. are ambitions people.  They will all WANT to improve because they are competitive people.  THAT is their reason.  All I'm saying is that if a region finds themselves with a board of directors not willing to put the money in (as they don't have it over and above what they're already doing = cautious approach), and a union reluctant to do it too, as there is no threat of relegation to spur them on or to get rid of them from the league then you will get a region that's a bit stuck.  They can't go up due to lack of investment and they can't go down as there is nowhere to go.  They're stuck in limbo.  I don't think that's the same as a lack of ambition or willpower though.

Of course they want to improve, I am not suggesting they want to stay rubbish at all, I am suggesting that it dies not matter if they are always rubbish, because, well nothing will happen. 

The only thing that will make things alter within the mindset of the regions, is if the fans started voting with their feet, and trust me, a time will come when people will say, right, I've had enough of this crap, I am not wasting my money on this anymore and the region loses out on ticket sales.

Did that at CCS mun. Worked a treat too.

[Stone Motif]

Good evening my lil stoney mcstoneface - how are you today?

Nice to see you throwing absolutes around that you know aren't true. That is unlike you.

Flabbergasted by tonight's news, truth be told.

I await the disenfranchised rugby masses of Gwent pooling their wealth to institute a new egalitarian and fully representative model for pro rugby in South East Wales, thus proving you were right all along.

[Cardiff Dave]

Good evening my lil stoney mcstoneface - how are you today?

Nice to see you throwing absolutes around that you know aren't true. That is unlike you.

Flabbergasted by tonight's news, truth be told.

I await the disenfranchised rugby masses of Gwent pooling their wealth to institute a new egalitarian and fully representative model for pro rugby in South East Wales, thus proving you were right all along.

Gwent Dragons it is then. Again. For a while.

[Steffan]

Gwent Dragons it is then. Again. For a while.

Cardiff Blues to be the only "region" with a town/city name in it at this rate

Ooooh you swines

[Cardiff Dave]

Gwent Dragons it is then. Again. For a while.

Cardiff Blues to be the only "region" with a town/city name in it at this rate

Ooooh you swines

Capital city btw.

[RiscaGame]

I saw Mr Tan in Friars Walk with Pinky earlier. Just thought they were there for a cheeky nandos, but maybe I was mistaken with the announcement that followed. Im sure a black and Amber (with some red still for Mr Tan) top with a Malaysian Dragon on would be lovely.

[GavinDragon]

Good evening my lil stoney mcstoneface - how are you today?

Nice to see you throwing absolutes around that you know aren't true. That is unlike you.

Flabbergasted by tonight's news, truth be told.

I await the disenfranchised rugby masses of Gwent pooling their wealth to institute a new egalitarian and fully representative model for pro rugby in South East Wales, thus proving you were right all along.

As am I. Still, it is only a plan at this point - its execution based on there being individuals willing to invest ina viable manner before NRFC and WRU relinquish their shares (that may take a while).

But, under the terms of the proposal, NRFC retain their stadium while receiving rent for its use. Only fit and proper IMO! While the Dragons, subject to there being someone willing to invest, would no longer be relying on NRFC to run/fund them. A win/win for both parties - again, subject to there being an investor who, ironically, may decide that it should be Newport anyway.

[munkian]

I'm a ST holder - don't give a flying cuddle what they are called, who really cares ?

[mikey_dragon]

Call 'em Ponty Warriors en innit.

PS - I had originally said that for Dragons to prosper somebody, collective or individual, would need to take the 50% share from the WRU as that had been holding us back. I was called a madman by PhilBB but now it seems the Dragons board are coming around to the idea. I reckon Stu reads this forum.

[munkian]

Phil won't be happy until every team in the world is prefixed with Cardiff.

[GavinDragon]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/live-updates-newport-gwent-dragons-11144568

Hazell:-

"Rugby has to stay here because Newport have been here for 150 years. Rugby was put here by Lord Tredegar and it has to stay here. The name has been a mismatch since the beginning and I am not sure it’s right now. But this is not what is about. You want the Dragons playing in here. They are a Gwent region and where else are they going to play?"

Music to my bleeding ears!

[Guest]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/live-updates-newport-gwent-dragons-11144568

Hazell:-

"Rugby has to stay here because Newport have been here for 150 years. Rugby was put here by Lord Tredegar and it has to stay here. The name has been a mismatch since the beginning and I am not sure it’s right now. But this is not what is about. You want the Dragons playing in here. They are a Gwent region and where else are they going to play?"

Music to my bleeding ears!

Just to add to that: I understand the calls for the Dragons to be based in other parts of Gwent. I'm sure if I was an Ebbw fan I'd want it up there; from Cwmbran I'd want them based at Cwmbran Stadium; Pontypool the hallowed pooler stadium, etc., etc. However, you need to factor in the business side and what is most likely to work. I'm not from a business background so may not be best placed to discuss this. And honestly even though I've been a Newportonian for most of my life (bar some stints away at uni), I categorically hand on heart do NOT think Newport city is the bees knees in any way (although I quite like the new restaurant quarter). But to me it just makes logical sense to base the team in Newport:

Newport is the only city in Gwent. Why would you take it out of a city and put in in a much less populous area? It has the biggest population base in Gwent. Therefore, the probability is that you'd likely get more fans basing it there than, say, in Cwmbran. While perhaps not as affluent as Monmouthshire, Newport isn't far behind (in terms of the 5 county boroughs). Therefore, the likelihood is that it is one of the better areas to base it in terms of disposable income (a sweeping generalisation, admittedly). It has the only motorway in the whole of Wales running straight through the middle of it, therefore transport links for visiting fans are the best they could be in Gwent. That motorway is linked directly to London and Wales' capital city in the west. Newport also has a train station right in the middle, again directly linked to London and Bristol in the East (who have airports too) and Cardiff in the West. No changes of train needed. Newport already had/has a stadium that, while not the best facilities in the world, has a) recently been updated and the new stand is quite nice with money making facilities (function room for weddings, etc.) to generate more income, and b) has a landlord willing to lease it to us. Newport also at the time of inception had probably the best supported team out of the Gwent clubs, so again if you're basing it somewhere and were hoping to pick up the Gwent fans then Newport might have been a more logical choice. Newport also had backers willing to put money in, which might not have happened in Cwmbran, Abergavenny, Nantyglo, etc. Just a guess. But they needed to base it on something a bit more concrete. Ebbw might have had some fan base to challenge, and perhaps the investment (Russell), but perhaps falls down on some of the other criteria above. Not sure if there's anywhere else in Gwent that fits the bill.

So Newport for me seems the logical choice. Other parts of Gwent provide more uncertainty and obstacles, logistical problems, etc. that mean that Newport stands out as the most suitable location, even if Newport is no great shakes itself.

[GavinDragon]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/live-updates-newport-gwent-dragons-11144568

Hazell:-

"Rugby has to stay here because Newport have been here for 150 years. Rugby was put here by Lord Tredegar and it has to stay here. The name has been a mismatch since the beginning and I am not sure it’s right now. But this is not what is about. You want the Dragons playing in here. They are a Gwent region and where else are they going to play?"

Music to my bleeding ears!

Just to add to that: I understand the calls for the Dragons to be based in other parts of Gwent.  I'm sure if I was an Ebbw fan I'd want it up there; from Cwmbran I'd want them based at Cwmbran Stadium; Pontypool the hallowed pooler stadium, etc., etc.  However, you need to factor in the business side and what is most likely to work.  I'm not from a business background so may not be best placed to discuss this.  And honestly even though I've been a  Newportonian for most of my life (bar some stints away at uni), I categorically hand on heart do NOT think Newport city is the bees knees in any way (although I quite like the new restaurant quarter).  But to me it just makes logical sense to base the team in Newport:

Newport is the only city in Gwent.  Why would you take it out of a city and put in in a much less populous area?  It has the biggest population base in Gwent.  Therefore, the probability is that you'd likely get more fans basing it there than, say, in Cwmbran.  While perhaps not as affluent as Monmouthshire, Newport isn't far behind (in terms of the 5 county boroughs).  Therefore, the likelihood is that it is one of the better areas to base it in terms of disposable income (a sweeping generalisation, admittedly). It has the only motorway in the whole of Wales running straight through the middle of it, therefore transport links for visiting fans are the best they could be in Gwent.  That motorway is linked directly to London and Wales' capital city in the west.  Newport also has a train station right in the middle, again directly linked to London and Bristol in the East (who have airports too) and Cardiff in the West.  No changes of train needed.  Newport already had/has a stadium that, while not the best facilities in the world, has a) recently been updated and the new stand is quite nice with money making facilities (function room for weddings, etc.) to generate more income, and b) has a landlord willing to lease it to us.  Newport also at the time of inception had probably the best supported team out of the Gwent clubs, so again if you're basing it somewhere and were hoping to pick up the Gwent fans then Newport might have been a more logical choice.  Newport also had backers willing to put money in, which might not have happened in Cwmbran, Abergavenny, Nantyglo, etc.  Just a guess.  But they needed to base it on something a bit more concrete.  Ebbw might have had some fan base to challenge, and perhaps the investment (Russell), but perhaps falls down on some of the other criteria above.  Not sure if there's anywhere else in Gwent that fits the bill.

So Newport for me seems the logical choice.  Other parts of Gwent provide more uncertainty and obstacles, logistical problems, etc. that mean that Newport stands out as the most suitable location, even if Newport is no great shakes itself.

It had to, and still has to, be based at Rodney Parade. But now, under this plan if it comes off with new investors on board, NRFC will no longer pay for the running of the Dragons. In fact, NRFC will set to benefit from rent from the region being based there. The legal ties will be severed with Newport RFC, so lets go one further and drop Newport, and Gwent if it will keep more people happy, from the title.

I do, however, think that within the budget 1 or 2 games per year could be played at EXP. You could negotiate that into the lease arrangement, providing NRFC were happy with them losing one game of income (or the equivalent) deducted from the lease cost. NRFC would also have priority over the pitch for those 1 or 2 weekends - how novel. I honestly think you start doing that consistently, and there is an improvement in the playing squad, you will see the sleeping giant that is Gwent rugby awaken!

[mikey_dragon]

If Newport sever ties with Dragons then does that mean for them, they become powerful enough to do a Neath? Also with that, does that mean the clubs (Newport, Keys, etc) no longer have a share in the Dragons?

[GavinDragon]

If Newport sever ties with Dragons then does that mean for them, they become powerful enough to do a Neath? Also with that, does that mean the clubs (Newport, Keys, etc) no longer have a share in the Dragons?

Only Newport ever had a share in the Dragons. If this proposal is implemented (which is subject to there actually being some one out there willing to invest in a business which has no fixed assets other than the players contracted, and its academy), the new owners of the business (NGD, Dragons, or whatever else they decide to brand themselves as) would enter a lease agreement to remain at Rodney Parade and run the facilities. NRFC would therefore have an increased income, not to mention having no obligation to support the Dragons. In practice, their arrangement with the dragons would be on the same footing as Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys etc. I imaging you will still see academy players placed within WP club sides (until such time as an A league can be created). I suppose this would be spent on the playing squad so NRFC would be able to attract the best semi pro talent. Imagine how much income they might earn if the WP moved to summer rugby?

In practice, nothing has changed and any changes all hinge on investors being found and their plan being agreed by the current board of directors. So, for example, if I won the Euro millions lottery tomorrow and stepped forward with a proposal to buy the team, pump £10m into it over 4 years, but change the name to Gwent Steelers, Newport RFC and its directors could veto it and the deal wouldn't go through.

Likewise, if, say FONR, attemped to complete a fan takeover with the intention or reverting to Newport, the WRU would have the legal right to refuse to sell (this scenario would seriously test WRU's commitment to regions!)

[mikey_dragon]

I can understand that, but I don't see how Newport RFC pulling out would benefit Dragons, it seems it would benefit NRFC massively though. Surely it would be better if they stayed put and worked with the incoming (I hope) investors. I'd like to see all the clubs involved one way or another, having an actual obligation to the Region - after all wasn't that the point of forming the region? That said if NRFC stop bankrolling the team by themselves NGD could drop them from the name.

[GavinDragon]

I can understand that, but I don't see how Newport RFC pulling out would benefit Dragons, it seems it would benefit NRFC massively though. Surely it would be better if they stayed put and worked with the incoming (I hope) investors. I'd like to see all the clubs involved one way or another, having an actual obligation to the Region - after all wasn't that the point of forming the region? That said if NRFC stop bankrolling the team by themselves NGD could drop them from the name.

They reason why it benefits the Dragons is because Hazell and Brown made loans to the Dragons via NRFC's accounts. So these loans will be largely written off when a new investor is found. Meaning the Dragons will be largely debt free which should be more attractive to investors. In addition, as NRFC will have nothing to do with the Dragons, they have the freedom to brand and market as the new investor/owner sees fit.

[Guest]

I don't think any other club had a share in the Dragons, business-wise. But I'm pretty sure the Gwent clubs have an obligation of some sort as laid out when the regional lines were drawn up. More of a charter to sign up to than a business 'share', if that makes sense. Perhaps the clubs are stakeholders as opposed to shareholders. Whether they actually fulfill their obligations or not is up to them I guess (see Ponty and Cardiff), but certainly in Gwent my perception is that Newport, Cross Keys, Bedwas and Ebbw do all work well with the Dragons on a reciprocal basis. I know there's been a few hiccups, a few groans and moans about players not being released at certain times by the Dragons, but by and large the 'regional model' (Stone will murder me for using that term!) whereby we loan out academy/squad players and the clubs in turn provide opportunities and pathways up to the pro team all seems to be working in Gwent.

[GavinDragon]

I don't think any other club had a share in the Dragons, business-wise.  But I'm pretty sure the Gwent clubs have an obligation of some sort as laid out when the regional lines were drawn up.  More of a charter to sign up to than a business 'share', if that makes sense.  Perhaps the clubs are stakeholders as opposed to shareholders.  Whether they actually fulfill their obligations or not is up to them I guess (see Ponty and Cardiff), but certainly in Gwent my perception is that Newport, Cross Keys, Bedwas and Ebbw do all work well with the Dragons on a reciprocal basis.  I know there's been a few hiccups, a few groans and moans about players not being released at certain times by the Dragons, but by and large the 'regional model' (Stone will murder me for using that term!) whereby we loan out academy/squad players and the clubs in turn provide opportunities and pathways up to the pro team all seems to be working in Gwent.

Correct, but this is, largely, a voluntary arrangement. The clubs don't have to accept players from the Dragons or support or coaches etc.

It does work and should continue, but, as you pointed out, there is a different between these reciprocal rugby arrangements and clubs being legally liable for the running of the dragons as a business. Many, such as Owen Robbins and the chap VietGwent, advocate the latter - that the clubs should have a financial stake in the business. But I don't see how existing WP clubs, NRFC excluded, would have or be able to raise the capital to do so, nor do I think they would want the risk.

The real threat to the Gwent clubs now is, if the Dragons are a single regional entitey and have the academy and also choose to set up A sides, what purpose do they serve? They don't run mini and junior sides so they don't provide players. If the regions establish full time A sides they won't be needed to give game time to young players. So what would be their purpose?

[Guest]

On the name thing: I'd still keep Gwent in. We're the only side in Wales that was actually based on something that existed in geographical terms, albeit a now defunct one in administrative terms. Gwent, and the area we now cover as a side, exists/existed. Therefore, why not use it? I'm not keen on teams just going by a nickname. It could relate to anything. At least a location identifier helps to put the team on a map. If a new team came along called 'Penguins' how the hell are you supposed to know who they represent?! It's a bit more difficult for the Ospreys as they cover a few counties so that would be a mouthful. Same for Scarlets. Keep the county in, I say. Show 'em where we're from.

[GavinDragon]

On the name thing: I'd still keep Gwent in.  We're the only side in Wales that was actually based on something that existed in geographical terms, albeit a now defunct one in administrative terms.  Gwent, and the area we now cover as a side, exists/existed.    Therefore, why not use it?  I'm not keen on teams just going by a nickname.  It could relate to anything.  At least a location identifier helps to put the team on a map.  If a new team came along called 'Penguins' how the hell are you supposed to know who they represent?!  It's a bit more difficult for the Ospreys as they cover a few counties so that would be a mouthful.  Same for Scarlets.  Keep the county in, I say.  Show 'em where we're from.

Due to local authority budget cuts, there have been proposal to consolidate local authorities into something that resembles the old county system. Gwent could yet make a return in an administrative sense.

[GavinDragon]

The other thing with Gwent. The entire playing pathway flows towards a gwent team. As I type the Dragons u16's are holding trial matches between all of its dewar shield teams; Newport Schools, Pontypool Schools, Blaenau Gwent Schools (Ebbw Vale), Rhymney Valley Schools (Tredegar) and Iswlyn. The best of these boys will come together to represent the Dragons, which geographically is based on the boroughs within Gwent. Their friends and family will support them. Granted, only a very small percentage will make it through to seniors, but it does seem backwards for them to revert to playing for a Newport only team.

[Guest]

I don't think any other club had a share in the Dragons, business-wise.  But I'm pretty sure the Gwent clubs have an obligation of some sort as laid out when the regional lines were drawn up.  More of a charter to sign up to than a business 'share', if that makes sense.  Perhaps the clubs are stakeholders as opposed to shareholders.  Whether they actually fulfill their obligations or not is up to them I guess (see Ponty and Cardiff), but certainly in Gwent my perception is that Newport, Cross Keys, Bedwas and Ebbw do all work well with the Dragons on a reciprocal basis.  I know there's been a few hiccups, a few groans and moans about players not being released at certain times by the Dragons, but by and large the 'regional model' (Stone will murder me for using that term!) whereby we loan out academy/squad players and the clubs in turn provide opportunities and pathways up to the pro team all seems to be working in Gwent.

Correct, but this is, largely, a voluntary arrangement. The clubs don't have to accept players from the Dragons or support or coaches etc.

It does work and should continue, but, as you pointed out, there is a different between these reciprocal rugby arrangements and clubs being legally liable for the running of the dragons as a business. Many, such as Owen Robbins and the chap VietGwent, advocate the latter - that the clubs should have a financial stake in the business. But I don't see how existing WP clubs, NRFC excluded, would have or be able to raise the capital to do so, nor do I think they would want the risk.

The real threat to the Gwent clubs now is, if the Dragons are a single regional entitey and have the academy and also choose to set up A sides, what purpose do they serve? They don't run mini and junior sides so they don't provide players. If the regions establish full time A sides they won't be needed to give game time to young players. So what would be their purpose?

I get the point though. Not sure how it would work legally, and I can only imagine the difficulties and infighting! But if you look at other countries with provinces/franchises/regions the clubs have a stake as part of a sort of sub-union. In Ireland they have the braches which oversee rugby in that province, and I guess all clubs within it are stakeholders. In NZ they are all in a mini-union formed by a number of provincial unions e.g. The Chiefs are the representative team for the provincial unions of Bay of Plenty, Waikato, etc. I think it might help if there was a more formal stake held in the regional team by the clubs in the region in Wales, rather than just on a goodwill basis, especially now that there is a more official separation between Newport RFC and Dragons. Perhaps there already is but I just don't know enough about it!

[GavinDragon]

I don't think any other club had a share in the Dragons, business-wise.  But I'm pretty sure the Gwent clubs have an obligation of some sort as laid out when the regional lines were drawn up.  More of a charter to sign up to than a business 'share', if that makes sense.  Perhaps the clubs are stakeholders as opposed to shareholders.  Whether they actually fulfill their obligations or not is up to them I guess (see Ponty and Cardiff), but certainly in Gwent my perception is that Newport, Cross Keys, Bedwas and Ebbw do all work well with the Dragons on a reciprocal basis.  I know there's been a few hiccups, a few groans and moans about players not being released at certain times by the Dragons, but by and large the 'regional model' (Stone will murder me for using that term!) whereby we loan out academy/squad players and the clubs in turn provide opportunities and pathways up to the pro team all seems to be working in Gwent.

Correct, but this is, largely, a voluntary arrangement. The clubs don't have to accept players from the Dragons or support or coaches etc.

It does work and should continue, but, as you pointed out, there is a different between these reciprocal rugby arrangements and clubs being legally liable for the running of the dragons as a business. Many, such as Owen Robbins and the chap VietGwent, advocate the latter - that the clubs should have a financial stake in the business. But I don't see how existing WP clubs, NRFC excluded, would have or be able to raise the capital to do so, nor do I think they would want the risk.

The real threat to the Gwent clubs now is, if the Dragons are a single regional entitey and have the academy and also choose to set up A sides, what purpose do they serve? They don't run mini and junior sides so they don't provide players. If the regions establish full time A sides they won't be needed to give game time to young players. So what would be their purpose?

I get the point though.  Not sure how it would work legally, and I can only imagine the difficulties and infighting!  But if you look at other countries with provinces/franchises/regions the clubs have a stake as part of a sort of sub-union.  In Ireland they have the braches which oversee rugby in that province, and I guess all clubs within it are stakeholders.  In NZ they are all in a mini-union formed by a number of provincial unions e.g. The Chiefs are the representative team for the provincial unions of Bay of Plenty, Waikato, etc.  I think it might help if there was a more formal stake held in the regional team by the clubs in the region in Wales, rather than just on a goodwill basis, especially now that there is a more official separation between Newport RFC and Dragons.  Perhaps there already is but I just don't know enough about it!

The only way I could see it working would be for the clubs to become more cash rich in their own right. How could that happen when their customers are the same as the regions because they both play at the same time?

Now, if you moved them to the summer you could, arguable, increase crowds on match day and therefore revenue (imagine Newport vs Ebbw Vale in the June sun). You could also have Dragons fringe players moved down to the clubs so that the quality of the rugby is better and that more fans are attracted. As more fans turn up you could pay for bette facilities, coaching, players and so the product improves etc. Then, perhaps, the clubs could contribute financially to the region.

[Steffan]

Personally I would just call the team GWENT

As Gavin said, the 'Newport' bit is backward when they represent the whole of Gwent and as I have said before...let's be honest...whoever came up with the name 'Dragons' for a Welsh team is never going to win a name originality competition

GWENT is short, sweet and incorporates everyone in the region. Job done I reckon

[GavinDragon]

I would like Steelers. Represents the history of the region pretty well IMO. Llanwern Steel Works, Ebbw Vale Steel works etc

[munkian]

The 4 Welsh professional clubs in the Pro12 aren't supposed to 'represent' anyone.

The region is the catchment player pathway area - that's it.

They won't drop the Newport part - financial suicide as proven in the past.

I don't think the feeder clubs in the premiership should be professional - semi or otherwise.

[Steffan]

I don't think the feeder clubs in the premiership should be professional - semi or otherwise

Even local village clubs I know below the Premiership are paying players because they have the resources to do so

How you are going stop clubs like Merthyr paying out cash for players? And what will happen to all the semi-pro or professional players in Wales who are not involved with one of the four Welsh pro-clubs...will half of them ever bother turning out if there is no money involved?

Will the Premiership clubs then start trying to find ways around the system (fancy a car on behalf of the club mate)? I really fail to see how banning any money outside the fab four would work or help the game in Wales. It's like saying that no one other than the fab four is allowed some ambition

[GavinDragon]

The 4 Welsh professional clubs in the Pro12  aren't supposed to 'represent' anyone.

The region is the catchment player pathway area - that's it.

They won't drop the Newport part  - financial  suicide as proven in the past.

I don't think the feeder clubs in the premiership should be professional - semi or otherwise.

Does it not make sense to have that as a fan catchment area too? I am sorry, but unless the new investor says so, Newport RFC will have nothing to do with the Dragons.

[Steffan]

Does it not make sense to have that as a fan catchment area too? I am sorry, but unless the new investor says so, Newport RFC will have nothing to do with the Dragons.

Well according to Munkian so far...Newport GD are allowed to be fed any player from a Gwent feeder team although they do not represent any of the Gwent clubs it's just a regional pathway. Oh...and none of the Gwent clubs are allowed to spend any money that they have received from gate receipts on players to achieve more success to get possibly even better gate receipts and money for the club

Under no circumstance is that going to cause resentment

[munkian]

Newport RFC don't have a monopoly on the name Newport though.

You get fans from different regions living in different 'catchment' areas though. I live in Bristol but still support the Dragons.

Can you imagine if that applied to football ? If you could only support MUFC if you lived in Manchester who would half of Wales/Ireland/London support ?

[munkian]

Its not 'according to me' - the whole regional thing has changed and adapted since their inception.

[Steffan]

Its not 'according to me' - the whole regional thing has changed and adapted since their inception.

Well I am not getting into a debate over the Dragons name, I have given my opinion and I'll leave the debate up to you supporters of the club/region/pro team as I don't care anyway

But as a Welsh club supporter (and not just Ponty) who has links with my village club, I can assure you now that you will never be able to stop payment of players at Premiership level or even below that with a lot of clubs. Just the way the game is

[munkian]

Its not 'according to me' - the whole regional thing has changed and adapted since their inception.

Well I am not getting into a debate over the Dragons name, I have given my opinion and I'll leave the debate up to you supporters of the club/region/pro team as I don't care anyway

But as a Welsh club supporter (and not just Ponty) who has links with my village club, I can assure you now that you will never be able to stop payment of players at Premiership level or even below that with a lot of clubs. Just the way the game is

I don't think you will either - but I think the whole 'semi pro' thing confuses things and gives false ideas of entitlement - in my opinion obvs

[GavinDragon]

Bloody entitlement. You know what entitlement is? Newport fans thinking they deserve their seat at the top table by right, when in fact you owe it to three wealthy men who, as of today, are looking to step down. I would advise that people with the view that Newport must remain in the name or the world will collapse to club together and buy the business because if not, I feel they may lose the very thing they hold most dear.

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