Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

[Luckless Pedestrian]

First topic message reminder :

With Warburton, I can only conclude that they like him as captain because of how he deals with referees. He's very respectful towards them.

[LordDowlais]

I don't see how anyone in pro sport can be labelled as lacking ambition, well not if they are to be involved in it for long anyway.

Well, the fact that Dragons refused to pay the extra £25.000 a year to keep Faletua seems like a distinct lack of ambition to me, hopefully the young U20's player Harrison Keddie can fill the void, but that's asking a lot of a teenager.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/09/bath-sign-taulupe-faleteau-newport-wales-rugby

The WRU were stumping up their 60% to pay his wages, Dragons needed to add they're bit, they wouldn't. I understand the gripe of not allowing them to sell him for £250,000 but if Dragons had any ambition they would have topped up Faletua's contract. Why should the WRU stump up the extra's, they are already paying the lions share ?

[LordDowlais]

i wish the board would recruit more NWQ's to stay competitive

So it is the board then ?

[Stone Motif]

Poor results do not mean the region has been run poorly, it means that the coach and the players may not be up to the required standard.

And who employs these coaches ?

We're they able to employ who they wanted prior to the new RSA?
Answer the question.

[True Raven]

i wish the board would recruit more NWQ's to stay competitive

So it is the board then ?

They have with bringing jj in at the start of the year and we've signed fonotia from the crusaders but were now at our limit. I hope they sign more but they've entered into an agreement with the WRU to have restrictions on the no of NWQ.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I don't see how anyone in pro sport can be labelled as lacking ambition, well not if they are to be involved in it for long anyway.

Well, the fact that Dragons refused to pay the extra £25.000 a year to keep Faletua seems like a distinct lack of ambition to me, hopefully the young U20's player Harrison Keddie can fill the void, but that's asking a lot of a teenager.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/09/bath-sign-taulupe-faleteau-newport-wales-rugby

The WRU were stumping up their 60% to pay his wages, Dragons needed to add they're bit, they wouldn't. I understand the gripe of not allowing them to sell him for £250,000 but if Dragons had any ambition they would have topped up Faletua's contract. Why should the WRU stump up the extra's, they are already paying the lions share ?

Ambition - a strong desire to do or achieve something; desire and determination to achieve success.

Now having the financial clout, or professional nouse to retain Faletau may not be there. But they had the ambition. If they didn't have the ambition to retain him, they would not have even put a contract in front of him.

Also there is always a weigh off when money is involve. Retain Faletau and then lose three or four other lads because the increased value of his contract has pushed them too far. I know we all sit here and talk about players wages, ticket prices, ndcs etc. But really it's all unknown to us. Even the backers don't have endless supplies of money, even if they are millionaires. They have other things to spend their cash on too.

[LordDowlais]

Poor results do not mean the region has been run poorly, it means that the coach and the players may not be up to the required standard.

And who employs these coaches ?

We're they able to employ who they wanted prior to the new RSA?
Answer the question.

I don't know.

The WRU seem to do OK with coaches, they have had a couple of decent one's coaching the U20's for a while now. Anyway, the OLD RSA did not stop Blues signing Hammett, or Scarlets signing Pivac, or Ospreys signing Andrew Hore and Scott Johnson, so I do not think it was the WRU's fault that Cardiff Blues have had a plethora of coaches over the last decade and Dragons have had a raft of coaches either.

[LordDowlais]

But they had the ambition. If they didn't have the ambition to retain him, they would not have even put a contract in front of him.

I am not saying they did not have the ambition to sign him, feck, they just did not show enough ambition. Hence the lack of.

I read a lot about how Arsenal fans were up in arms over Luis Suarez, when the club offered £1 extra to sign him. FFS, if they showed more ambition than an extra £1 then they would have had there man, but they didn't. 

It's the same here, if Dragons really showed they mean business they would have stumped up the extra money to sign him, not blame the WRU for not doing it.

[munkian]

Stone do you mean could they afford to hire who they wanted under the old RSA or did you mean the WRU vetoed coach selection ?

[True Raven]

But they had the ambition. If they didn't have the ambition to retain him, they would not have even put a contract in front of him.

I am not saying they did not have the ambition to sign him, feck, they just did not show enough ambition. Hence the lack of.

I read a lot about how Arsenal fans were up in arms over Luis Suarez, when the club offered £1 extra to sign him. FFS, if they showed more ambition than an extra £1 then they would have had there man, but they didn't. 

It's the same here, if Dragons really showed they mean business they would have stumped up the extra money to sign him, not blame the WRU for not doing it.

You're talking rubbish now.

Firstly, Arsenal were under the impression that anything over a bid of £40,000,000 would have meant Liverpool agreeing the fee so Arsneal foolishy bid £40,000,001 to enter into negotiations. Liverpool said no so he eventually went to Barcelona for £75,000,000 almost double what Arsenal bid so they were no where close to signing Suarez.

With the Dragons, Stuart Davies had said that they thought the WRU were finalising the contract, only to find out Faletau had agreed a move to Bath. It was the WRU's fault.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/extremely-disappointed-dragons-say-thought-10573358

[LordDowlais]

 Liverpool said no so he eventually went to Barcelona for £75,000,000 almost double what Arsenal bid so they were no where close to signing Suarez.

If Arsenal had bid £75,000,000 they would have signed him. Barcelona showed more ambition than them, the same as what Bath have done, they have shown more ambition and have signed their man.


Also, the links you are showing me all the time are just saying how Dragons are upset that the WRU did not do more, the WRU were doing their bit, by paying their bit of the DC. If Dragons were that eager to keep him they should have stumped up the money themselves.

[munkian]

There's ambition and then there's over bidding.

[LordDowlais]

There's ambition and then there's over bidding.

Do you think Bath are paying over the odds for Faletau ? I don't.

[Stone Motif]

I don't see how anyone in pro sport can be labelled as lacking ambition, well not if they are to be involved in it for long anyway.

Well, the fact that Dragons refused to pay the extra £25.000 a year to keep Faletua seems like a distinct lack of ambition to me, hopefully the young U20's player Harrison Keddie can fill the void, but that's asking a lot of a teenager.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/09/bath-sign-taulupe-faleteau-newport-wales-rugby

The WRU were stumping up their 60% to pay his wages, Dragons needed to add they're bit, they wouldn't. I understand the gripe of not allowing them to sell him for £250,000 but if Dragons had any ambition they would have topped up Faletua's contract. Why should the WRU stump up the extra's, they are already paying the lions share ?

Even for a carpet fitter from Merthyr, that's a thick post

[LordDowlais]

Even for a carpet fitter from Merthyr, that's a thick post

Classy.

[munkian]

No, but they have an awful lot more money and may or may not stick to the agreed Aviva cap...

For Dragon's to spend that much money who wont be available to them for the majority of the season it could be argued it would make little business sense and the money could have been used to keep young rising stars in the region.

[True Raven]

 Liverpool said no so he eventually went to Barcelona for £75,000,000 almost double what Arsenal bid so they were no where close to signing Suarez.

If Arsenal had bid £75,000,000 they would have signed him. Barcelona showed more ambition than them, the same as what Bath have done, they have shown more ambition and have signed their man.


Also, the links you are showing me all the time are just saying how Dragons are upset that the WRU did not do more, the WRU were doing their bit, by paying their bit of the DC. If Dragons were that eager to keep him they should have stumped up the money themselves.

No, they are showing you that the WRU were handling the NDC contract negotiations and the Dragon's thought Faletau was signing the contract, only to find out the WRU wouldn't pay the extra amount and Bath had signed him. Hence, not the Dragons fault that he will not be there next season

[LordDowlais]

For Dragon's to spend that much money who wont be available to them for the majority of the season it could be argued it would make little business sense and the money could have been used to keep young rising stars in the region.

Faletau is one of the rare big success stories from Dragons, he has risen up through the ranks to become one of the best players in his position, not only in Wales but the world, I reckon the extra £25,000 could have been recuperated with keeping his signature, he sells tickets and jerseys on his own. 

He should have been the stalwart of Gwent for years to come, the team should have been built around him, he should have been used as a marker for the standards expected by people who want to represent Gwent, and it could have been done all for an extra £25,000 a year.

[LordDowlais]

Hence, not the Dragons fault that he will not be there next season

Your'e having a giraffe. Dragons were ready to lady of loose morals him out for £250,000 a few weeks prior. They showed a distinct lack of ambition, that is why he chose Bath.

[munkian]

I don't think it was about money for him though, he wanted to play at a higher level, unfortunately Baaarf have been gash this season.

[Stone Motif]

Poor results do not mean the region has been run poorly, it means that the coach and the players may not be up to the required standard.

And who employs these coaches ?

We're they able to employ who they wanted prior to the new RSA?
Answer the question.

I don't know.

The WRU seem to do OK with coaches, they have had a couple of decent one's coaching the U20's for a while now. Anyway, the OLD RSA did not stop Blues signing Hammett, or Scarlets signing Pivac, or Ospreys signing Andrew Hore and Scott Johnson, so I do not think it was the WRU's fault that Cardiff Blues have had a plethora of coaches over the last decade and Dragons have had a raft of coaches either.

If you don't know, despite the answer being posted on each of the recent occasions you've befouled this forum with your version of debate then you've got no business criticising.

[GavinDragon]

Hence, not the Dragons fault that he will not be there next season

Your'e having a giraffe. Dragons were ready to lady of loose morals him out for £250,000 a few weeks prior. They showed a distinct lack of ambition, that is why he chose Bath.

As has been pointed out above. We put a contract to him, it wasn't enough and we obviously couldn't afford to pay more. We, more than the other 4, have lived well within our means for years and the amount the existing directors have had to put in to service the playing squad has reduced vastly over the brief history of the region. I don't see what your end goal is coming on here and slating the region for lacking ambition when most fans agree that our board have not backed the team in the same way that the other regions' backers have.

[LordDowlais]

 when most fans agree that our board have not backed the team in the same way that the other regions' backers have

I agree with this 100%. It's True Raven who is arguing the point about it. 

Look, you would not be able to argue with the commitment Peter Thomas has shown Cardiff Blues with the amount of his own money he has put into the club, be he runs it like a shambles. Coach after coach after coach.

Domestically, welsh rugby is a laughing stock, this we cannot deny.

[True Raven]

Hence, not the Dragons fault that he will not be there next season

Your'e having a giraffe. Dragons were ready to lady of loose morals him out for £250,000 a few weeks prior. They showed a distinct lack of ambition, that is why he chose Bath.

Wasn't it the case that the WRU were not going to offer him a NDC after he missed the deadline on the original one they offered him and Faletau was ready to leave the Dragons and so the Dragons wanted to cash in on him as he would be away with Wales for large periods of the season and thought it better to spend the money on his contract on other areas of the team only for the WRU to block it, state how much they want key welsh players playing in Wales, do a 180 and offer him that NDC which led the Dragons to beleive he was staying, and then not offer him the extra money which led him to sign with Bath and the Dragons out of pocket?

[LordDowlais]

TR, Faletau wanted out, it was plain and simple to see, and like munkian hast stated I do not think it was about the money for him.

[True Raven]

 when most fans agree that our board have not backed the team in the same way that the other regions' backers have

I agree with this 100%. It's True Raven who is arguing the point about it. 

Look, you would not be able to argue with the commitment Peter Thomas has shown Cardiff Blues with the amount of his own money he has put into the club, be he runs it like a shambles. Coach after coach after coach.

Domestically, welsh rugby is a laughing stock, this we cannot deny.

Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by LordDowlais Today at 10:44

munkian wrote:
Considering our current board's complete lack of ambition, yes.


That's what troubles me with the regions in general TBH. The boards have a lack of ambition, as there is no incentive for improvement, it does not matter if where they finish in the league, nothing will come of it, not as long the four regions keep producing players for Wales.

I live in hope that next season will be better for Welsh domestic rugby. This season has been a nightmare. Sad


I'm debating this point, not that the Dragons backers havent put more money into the club than Peter Thomas. You lumped all the regions together and i dont agree with the above point

[LordDowlais]

TR, Welsh domestic rugby is in a mess. No doubt you will be like a lot of other sympathisers on here and blame the WRU. But the facts remain, domestic Welsh rugby is the laughing stock of Europe.

[mikey_dragon]

If Faletau is one of the best in the world in his position, which he is in my opinion, then what higher level can he play at?

[Kingshu]

Just to change the subject slightly from people running the Dragons down.

Are Dragons fans optimistic about next season?

Always say that Dragons fans want a good home record to build on, it wasn't quite there this year but I think its 10 LBP means there is home that it could.

Is there investment or players to come in/step up, will next season be better than this, or is there a fear that it may be another year at the bottom competing with the Italians?

[GavinDragon]

Just to change the subject slightly from people running the Dragons down.

Are Dragons fans optimistic about next season?

Always say that Dragons fans want a good home record to build on, it wasn't quite there this year but I think its 10 LBP means there is home that it could.

Is there investment or players to come in/step up, will next season be better than this, or is there a fear that it may be another year at the bottom competing with the Italians?

I think you have to be an eternal optimist to be a Dragons fan.

In short, yes I am. We have a number of promising youngsters at the region, some in the first side already, and others waiting to push through. As discussed above, we need some depth and a few quality old heads in key positions and we will turn those losses into wins. It needs money, and the CEO has put a plan forward to attempt to attract it - a formal for sale sign with a relatively cheap entry point (without having to pay off old Director loans), allbeit without a fixed asset to purchase (RP will still be owned by NRFC). They also plan to build around the youngsters (perhaps the only asset the region will have if and when the legal separation of the Dragons and NRFC occurs), tie as many down to long term contracts as possible to ensure continuity. Again, given the lack of cash at the region to me this is a good idea. Looking at our squad next season we will have

Hobbs/Price/Garrett
Dee/Buckley
Harris/Mitchell/Brown
Landman/Hill/Coombes (if he ever returns from injury)
Screech/Davies/Crosswell
Evans/McCusker(rumoured)/Thomas
Cudd/Griffiths/Benjamin
Jackson/Keddie

Pretorious/Davies
Macleod/O'Brien/Jones
Amos/Howard
Dixon/Warren
Morgan/Hughes
Hewitt/Gasson
Meyer/Prydie

If we could add another centre, a decent 10, a lock and a back three player down, and keep our players injury free, we should have better results next season.

It will be interesting who, if anyone, comes on board for next season on the coaching staff.

[RiscaGame]

What incentives do other sporting teams have that the regions don't?

Hmmmmmmm..... I will give you a few examples of no need to worry.

1. No fear of relegation.
2. The same funding from Europe no matter what comp they are in.
3. The same amount of money for competing in the Pro12.


If the regions finished in the bottom four of the league, there would be no repercussions. Lets face it, Dragons and Blues have been finishing just above the two Italian sides for ages now, and we have just been excepting it, as fans we should be demanding more.

I wondered how long it would be until you stuck yourself on repeat again.

There are not many supporters at NGD that are ACCEPTING the current state of play. Far from it. Can you provide proof that's the case? The most you will maybe see is those who didn't want Lyn to go, as they didn't know who could replace him.

These fans you speak of "excepting things", I assume you mean you as well? Why should you have any input, when you won't even nail your colours to one of the teams' mast?

[RiscaGame]

There's ambition and then there's over bidding.

Do you think Bath are paying over the odds for Faletau ? I don't.

So we would win a bidding war with Bath, would we? Blinking heck mun.

[LordDowlais]

 or is there a fear that it may be another year at the bottom competing with the Italians?

That is not a fate a fear solely for Dragons, I am worried all Welsh regions are left behind unless the people running them up their games. For me Dragons are the worst of a bad bunch at the moment, so it is unfair to just lump things at their feet. 

I just want this season to finish, and I hope that beyond all hope that we see drastic improvements next season. Even with Dragons losing Faletau, they still have players like Amos, Dixon, Morgan, Cudd, Hewitt, Dee, Combs, O'Brien. There is a nucleus of a good, young team there.

[RiscaGame]

I completely agree we should be spending all of our budget and if not should explain where the money is going.

That would surely be spending for the sake of it though. Maybe our wage structure is good enough, that we don't have to spend our budget? How short of it are we? It seems a bit much for people to criticise, when most are probably not that aware of how far off it we are.

[RiscaGame]

 or is there a fear that it may be another year at the bottom competing with the Italians?

That is not a fate a fear solely for Dragons, I am worried all Welsh regions are left behind unless the people running them up their games. For me Dragons are the worst of a bad bunch at the moment, so it is unfair to just lump things at their feet. 

I just want this season to finish, and I hope that beyond all hope that we see drastic improvements next season. Even with Dragons losing Faletau, they still have players like Amos, Dixon, Morgan, Cudd, Hewitt, Dee, Combs, O'Brien. There is a nucleus of a good, young team there.

So when you criticise the NGD, you should acknowledge that the nucleus of a good young team has been missing for huge chunks of the season. The only one that probably hasn't been is O'Brien, yet Lyn (the one the good Dr questions why we got rid of him) has not utilised him.

[LordDowlais]

There are not many supporters at NGD that are ACCEPTING the current state of play. Far from it. Can you provide proof that's the case? 

Can you provide me proof of saying this ?

So we would win a bidding war with Bath, would we? Blinking heck mun.

It would not been a bidding war, if Dragons offered another £25,000 he would have stayed, no bidding needed.

[LordDowlais]

That would surely be spending for the sake of it though. Maybe our wage structure is good enough, that we don't have to spend our budget? How short of it are we? It seems a bit much for people to criticise, when most are probably not that aware of how far off it we are.

I would wager that there would be £25,000 that could have been spent keeping Faletau with that "spare" bit Dragons are not spending.

[RiscaGame]

Yes I have provided proof. The bit where I picked you up on your poor spelling of accepting. Or what were you on about? Who is "excepting it" otherwise?

[RiscaGame]

That would surely be spending for the sake of it though. Maybe our wage structure is good enough, that we don't have to spend our budget? How short of it are we? It seems a bit much for people to criticise, when most are probably not that aware of how far off it we are.

I would wager that there would be £25,000 that could have been spent keeping Faletau with that "spare" bit Dragons are not spending.

Yes, you would wager. That's just supposition on your part again.

[LordDowlais]

So when you criticise the NGD, you should acknowledge that the nucleus of a good young team has been missing for huge chunks of the season. The only one that probably hasn't been is O'Brien, yet Lyn (the one the good Dr questions why we got rid of him) has not utilised him.

I am not criticising the players though am I ? I am criticising the people in charge at the regions. Also for the record, I am talking about a nucleus of a side for next season, I do not know if they will be injured all next season as well.

[LordDowlais]

Yes I have provided proof. The bit where I picked you up on your poor spelling of accepting. Or what were you on about? Who is "excepting it" otherwise?

Show me, because I have said that it is not the fault of the fans, and I have said as fans we should not be accepting it, if you are not accepting it, can you please enlighten me as to what you are all doing in protest ? As I see the same crowd there week in week out.

[LordDowlais]

That would surely be spending for the sake of it though. Maybe our wage structure is good enough, that we don't have to spend our budget? How short of it are we? It seems a bit much for people to criticise, when most are probably not that aware of how far off it we are.

I would wager that there would be £25,000 that could have been spent keeping Faletau with that "spare" bit Dragons are not spending.

Yes, you would wager. That's just supposition on your part again.

So it is not a matter of fact that Dragons are not spending anywhere near their budget ?

[RiscaGame]

Yes I have provided proof. The bit where I picked you up on your poor spelling of accepting. Or what were you on about? Who is "excepting it" otherwise?

Show me, because I have said that it is not the fault of the fans, and I have said as fans we should not be accepting it, if you are not accepting it, can you please enlighten me as to what you are all doing in protest ? As I see the same crowd there week in week out.

It's hard to decipher your first riddle. I have shown you what I'm on about and you've just ignored it.

You see the same crowd there week in, week out? Exactly the same? I wasn't aware you individually tracked everybody's movements.

[mikey_dragon]

That would surely be spending for the sake of it though. Maybe our wage structure is good enough, that we don't have to spend our budget? How short of it are we? It seems a bit much for people to criticise, when most are probably not that aware of how far off it we are.

I would wager that there would be £25,000 that could have been spent keeping Faletau with that "spare" bit Dragons are not spending.

Yes, you would wager. That's just supposition on your part again.

So it is not a matter of fact that Dragons are not spending anywhere near their budget ?

We don't know. I remember the reasons we didn't spend a few seasons ago were so that we could bring in Landman, Harris and Pretorious.

[RiscaGame]

That would surely be spending for the sake of it though. Maybe our wage structure is good enough, that we don't have to spend our budget? How short of it are we? It seems a bit much for people to criticise, when most are probably not that aware of how far off it we are.

I would wager that there would be £25,000 that could have been spent keeping Faletau with that "spare" bit Dragons are not spending.

Yes, you would wager. That's just supposition on your part again.

So it is not a matter of fact that Dragons are not spending anywhere near their budget ?

I don't know. I've not seen the figures and unlike you, am not pretending to be privy to any sort of expenditure. So it's a bit hard to call it matter of fact (just because you and Gwyn Jones say so), until I see a bit more proof.

[munkian]

I'm sure its been reported several times recently that we are spending under budget hasn't it ?

[LordDowlais]

just because you and Gwyn Jones say so until I saw a bit more proof

It's not just me and Gwyn Jones saying it though:-

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/14024975.CHRIS_KIRWAN__Dragons__meagre_budget_brutally_exposed_by_lack_of_cutting_edge/?ref=rss

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/stuart-davies-qa-dragons-chief-9632036

So that is Chris Kirwan saying it and your chief executive saying it. Is that enough proof for you. I know you will not like to click on the WOL link but this is the question asked:-

It’s generally assumed that you’ve not been spending up to the £3.5m wage cap due to financial limitations. Do you see the amount you spend on your rugby wage bill increasing?

and this is the answer he gave:-

That would be my aspiration. The rugby budget is our biggest single budget and we exist to try and make that as sizeable as we can.

As Lyn Jones will tell you, you grow the budget, you grow the quality and depth of your squad and success or improvement follows.

We are all mindful of that, but we have to operate the rugby side of things within the context of a sustainable and viable business.

[mikey_dragon]

I'm sure its been reported several times recently that we are spending under budget hasn't it ?

Is it well under budget though, like it's been implied?

[LordDowlais]

You see the same crowd there week in, week out? Exactly the same? I wasn't aware you individually tracked everybody's movements.

I am not seeing any sort of protest, so please enlighten me, what are you and the rest like you doing by not accepting it, other than just sitting there and saying that you are not accepting it ?

I will not wait for an answer, as I doubt there will be one coming.

[LordDowlais]

I'm sure its been reported several times recently that we are spending under budget hasn't it ?

Is it well under budget though, like it's been implied?

enough to spare £25,000 to have kept Faletau, do you reckon ?

[RiscaGame]

You see the same crowd there week in, week out? Exactly the same? I wasn't aware you individually tracked everybody's movements.

I am not seeing any sort of protest, so please enlighten me, what are you and the rest like you doing by not accepting it, other than just sitting there and saying that you are not accepting it ?

I will not wait for an answer, as I doubt there will be one coming.

Stop talking in riddles, all the time.

If you're not waiting for an answer, why ask the questions? That's so nonsensical.

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