Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

[Luckless Pedestrian]

First topic message reminder :

With Warburton, I can only conclude that they like him as captain because of how he deals with referees. He's very respectful towards them.

[GavinDragon]

Time will tell I suppose. Although our driving lineout - so often a weapon in 14/15 - could be improved upon again given the personell are largely the same.

It will be interesting to see who starts at 10. Dorian can go missing in defence, but stands flat to the gainline. Angus is a good distributor and perhaps plays more 'heads up', but can be prone to errors.

[RiscaGame]

There's only one winner for the ten shirt, in his father's unbiased opinion.

About time we appointed a full time forwards coach. I know Kingsley was looking after them, but that shouldn't have happened in his role as it was. Getting temps in was a bit embarrassing. And yes it is about time we picked up a defence coach.

[bedfordwelsh]

There's only one winner for the ten shirt, in his father's unbiased opinion.

About time we appointed a full time forwards coach. I know Kingsley was looking after them, but that shouldn't have happened in his role as it was. Getting temps in was a bit embarrassing. And yes it is about time we picked up a defence coach.

Ceri Jones has been appointed hasn't he?

[RiscaGame]

Yes, but it's about time we did. As I said, Kingsley shouldn't really have been head coach or whatever he was and also run the forwards.

[GavinDragon]

Attended the supporters club meeting last night. The committee is yet to be decided on as there were more applicants than spaces available, so last night took the format of a focus group, but these are a few things I took from it:-

- The region has very little additional money to invest. I know we already knew this, but I hadn't really considered how much of an impact this had on the commercial team's ability to do their job and try to market the region.
- We have re-signed with Gilbert as our kit maker.
- The supporters club, while being an official SC, will be independent of the region and will not be policed or regulated by the region's commercial team.
- ST holders will gain automatic entry to the club.
- It costs around 10k to host a game. We have two additional games this year which is why the ST cost has increased by 5% (although in fairness I still think it is fantastic value for money).
- We may have one or two further signings, but don't get hopes up for a marquee one.
- Until such time as we have new investors on board,  the plan is to retain and develop from within.
- There has been some interest from investors, some smaller investors who could contribute in part towards what the region need and one or two larger investors who could do it on their own.
- Both Stuart Davies and Kinglsey Jones are keen to hold regular Q&A's and comms with the SC.

I imagine when the committee is decided there will be more detail around what benefits are on offer and the cost for non ST holders, and I think the SC can be shaped by its members.

[PhilBB]

That's a good start.

Will the Supporters Club have a constitution? Will it try to become a Trust? Will it be a pressure group on branding etc.?

I dislike the idea that Season Ticket holders are automatically entered.

[GavinDragon]

Is that not what happens at CBSC?

Again, because the committee hasn't actually been decided upon yet things like that weren't discussed. But, as I said, there were some very bright people in the room yesterday So I imagine they will have a constitution and, depending on the benefits, become a trust (have to admit I am not exactly fully clued up on what benefits a trust brings).

With regards to branding, based on what was discussed and what I perceived from those discussions, I would be surprised if it became a pressure group for a change of brand (either way). However, there is a meeting with another group today and who knows what may happen when the committee is decided. What there will be is a focus on how to engage people across the region and I imagine the SC may want to try and support the region in that particular endeavour.

[PhilBB]

Is that not what happens at CBSC?

Again, because the committee hasn't actually been decided upon yet things like that weren't discussed. But, as I said, there were some very bright people in the room yesterday So I imagine they will have a constitution and, depending on the benefits, become a trust (have to admit I am not exactly fully clued up on what benefits a trust brings).

With regards to branding, based on what was discussed and what I perceived from those discussions, I would be surprised if it became a pressure group for a change of brand (either way). However, there is a meeting with another group today and who knows what may happen when the committee is decided. What there will be is a focus on how to engage people across the region and I imagine the SC may want to try and support the region in that particular endeavour.

Bloody hell, no. CBSC is an irrelevant bunch of sycophantic cheerleaders.

A trust allows a shareholding in the business whilst protecting its members. It really is the best way forward for a supporters group.

The final sentence is the type of rhetoric that limits support, limits appeal and, by definition, limits success. You should be welcoming people and engaging with them from wherever.

[GavinDragon]

Well then no, I don't think this will be a trust - certainly not at first. Who knows what it may grow into.

[PhilBB]

Well then no, I don't think this will be a trust - certainly not at first. Who knows what it may grow into.

Hopefully it will be involved with any new owners so that it can morph that way. Supporter involvement and ownership is a vital cog in successful teams.

Good luck with it and good on you for getting as involved as you can be. It's your team, make it want you want it to be.

[GavinDragon]

Cheers Phil. Good luck with the CB Rugby Trust!

[PhilBB]

Cheers Phil. Good luck with the CB Rugby Trust!

I've left that one for others, Gavin. Nothing to do with me. Far better people than I are involved in that.

[RiscaGame]

Attended the supporters club meeting last night. The committee is yet to be decided on as there were more applicants than spaces available, so last night took the format of a focus group, but these are a few things I took from it:-

- The region has very little additional money to invest. I know we already knew this, but I hadn't really considered how much of an impact this had on the commercial team's ability to do their job and try to market the region.
- We have re-signed with Gilbert as our kit maker.
- The supporters club, while being an official SC, will be independent of the region and will not be policed or regulated by the region's commercial team.
- ST holders will gain automatic entry to the club.
- It costs around 10k to host a game. We have two additional games this year which is why the ST cost has increased by 5% (although in fairness I still think it is fantastic value for money).
- We may have one or two further signings, but don't get hopes up for a marquee one.
- Until such time as we have new investors on board,  the plan is to retain and develop from within.
- There has been some interest from investors, some smaller investors who could contribute in part towards what the region need and one or two larger investors who could do it on their own.
- Both Stuart Davies and Kinglsey Jones are keen to hold regular Q&A's and comms with the SC.

I imagine when the committee is decided there will be more detail around what benefits are on offer and the cost for non ST holders, and I think the SC can be shaped by its members.

1) I don't buy the lack of money, as an excuse for lack of marketing. I'm sure there were/are plenty of cost effective ways. One way would be not mincing around with a mismatch identity, then they wouldn't have to provide different colour merch to appease different groups. Another would be to use a better tag line than real rugby, when the rugby is dire.

2) It's farcical we are with Gilbert again. I was in Rugby Heaven in Cwmbran earlier. Seeing other brands on display there just rubbed it in how bad our stuff is. Particularly when you see Ospreys BLK stuff.

3) If that's the case for the increase, why didn't it decrease when we lost two games last season? Why were we the only team to charge for BIC games? Are we that much on the bones of our arse, that 250 X £10 was necessary to take?

4) We may have one or two signings? If that's the case, don't bother. That'll be bargain basement stuff again and if the business isn't done yet then I suggest it's not going to happen.

5) Retain and develop from within is such a development region way of thinking. But then I guess that's why Dorian got tied down long term.

[GavinDragon]

Attended the supporters club meeting last night. The committee is yet to be decided on as there were more applicants than spaces available, so last night took the format of a focus group, but these are a few things I took from it:-

- The region has very little additional money to invest. I know we already knew this, but I hadn't really considered how much of an impact this had on the commercial team's ability to do their job and try to market the region.
- We have re-signed with Gilbert as our kit maker.
- The supporters club, while being an official SC, will be independent of the region and will not be policed or regulated by the region's commercial team.
- ST holders will gain automatic entry to the club.
- It costs around 10k to host a game. We have two additional games this year which is why the ST cost has increased by 5% (although in fairness I still think it is fantastic value for money).
- We may have one or two further signings, but don't get hopes up for a marquee one.
- Until such time as we have new investors on board,  the plan is to retain and develop from within.
- There has been some interest from investors, some smaller investors who could contribute in part towards what the region need and one or two larger investors who could do it on their own.
- Both Stuart Davies and Kinglsey Jones are keen to hold regular Q&A's and comms with the SC.

I imagine when the committee is decided there will be more detail around what benefits are on offer and the cost for non ST holders, and I think the SC can be shaped by its members.

1) I don't buy the lack of money, as an excuse for lack of marketing. I'm sure there were/are plenty of cost effective ways. One way would be not mincing around with a mismatch identity, then they wouldn't have to provide different colour merch to appease different groups. Another would be to use a better tag line than real rugby, when the rugby is dire.

2) It's farcical we are with Gilbert again. I was in Rugby Heaven in Cwmbran earlier. Seeing other brands on display there just rubbed it in how bad our stuff is. Particularly when you see Ospreys BLK stuff.

3) If that's the case for the increase, why didn't it decrease when we lost two games last season? Why were we the only team to charge for BIC games? Are we that much on the bones of our arse, that 250 X £10 was necessary to take?

4) We may have one or two signings? If that's the case, don't bother. That'll be bargain basement stuff again and if the business isn't done yet then I suggest it's not going to happen.

5) Retain and develop from within is such a development region way of thinking. But then I guess that's why Dorian got tied down long term.

There are and they do. Most of the free marketing like social media they already do, they just need to do more and this was fedback to them last night and with a new marketing manager on board that should become more constant.

The premiership clubs made the decision on the BIC games. They wanted to keep the gate receipts (which is their perogative).

All rugby teams have a home and away kit so I don't know what point your making by the two colours stuff? Even NRFC had away kits?

Retain and develop from within is where we are now given the financial constraints. They have made efforts to attract investment by the current directors not requiring their loans to be repaid. I am not sure quite what else the current management team can do.

And yes, we will probably end up 9th or 10th again. I don't quite know what to say to you. We are where we are given the money we have. Lyn Jones is gone so lets hope Kingsley and Ceri Jones have a better season, getting us playing better rugby and have better luck with injuries.

SUFTMOG

[RiscaGame]

We will be tenth at absolute best in my opinion. Teams around us are strengthening, aren't they? We have injuries, because we are forcing players to be thrown into the deep end and they are breaking down constantly (Jack, Tyler etc).

I am fully aware that most teams have two colours. I am a player myself and it even (unsurprisingly) happens at my level. I refer to this link as a starter. What do you think that amber shirt was pushed out for? Because they are Cat footing around with an identity I would say. They went in a direction of black, red and blue merch on the whole and have now gone back to this.

https://shop.rodneyparade.com/Shop-Products.ink?categoryID=321

[GavinDragon]

I think that is just an add on. The fact is there are two ranges. The Black with red and amber for home and the blue for away. Commercial Director said as much yesterday.

[Stone Motif]

We will be tenth at absolute best in my opinion. Teams around us are strengthening, aren't they? We have injuries, because we are forcing players to be thrown into the deep end and they are breaking down constantly (Jack, Tyler etc).

I am fully aware that most teams have two colours. I am a player myself and it even (unsurprisingly) happens at my level. I refer to this link as a starter. What do you think that amber shirt was pushed out for? Because they are Cat footing around with an identity I would say. They went in a direction of black, red and blue merch on the whole and have now gone back to this.

https://shop.rodneyparade.com/Shop-Products.ink?categoryID=321

Spot on. Development doesn't work in rugby unless it is done alongside a certain standard of senior players. You don't win anything with kids, not even if they are Lyn and Kingsley's.

Spot on as well on identity. Utterly symptomatic of a business who doesn't know it's target market. We're trying to run pro rugby as if it was a public service.

[GavinDragon]

We will be tenth at absolute best in my opinion. Teams around us are strengthening, aren't they? We have injuries, because we are forcing players to be thrown into the deep end and they are breaking down constantly (Jack, Tyler etc).

I am fully aware that most teams have two colours. I am a player myself and it even (unsurprisingly) happens at my level. I refer to this link as a starter. What do you think that amber shirt was pushed out for? Because they are Cat footing around with an identity I would say. They went in a direction of black, red and blue merch on the whole and have now gone back to this.

https://shop.rodneyparade.com/Shop-Products.ink?categoryID=321

Spot on. Development doesn't work in rugby unless it is done alongside a certain standard of senior players. You don't win anything with kids, not even if they are Lyn and Kingsley's.

Spot on as well on identity. Utterly symptomatic of a business who doesn't know it's target market. We're trying to run pro rugby as if it was a public service.

Again, in the absence of further investment (which is what is being sought) what else can be done?

[Stone Motif]

We will be tenth at absolute best in my opinion. Teams around us are strengthening, aren't they? We have injuries, because we are forcing players to be thrown into the deep end and they are breaking down constantly (Jack, Tyler etc).

I am fully aware that most teams have two colours. I am a player myself and it even (unsurprisingly) happens at my level. I refer to this link as a starter. What do you think that amber shirt was pushed out for? Because they are Cat footing around with an identity I would say. They went in a direction of black, red and blue merch on the whole and have now gone back to this.

https://shop.rodneyparade.com/Shop-Products.ink?categoryID=321

Spot on. Development doesn't work in rugby unless it is done alongside a certain standard of senior players. You don't win anything with kids, not even if they are Lyn and Kingsley's.

Spot on as well on identity. Utterly symptomatic of a business who doesn't know it's target market. We're trying to run pro rugby as if it was a public service.

Again, in the absence of further investment (which is what is being sought) what else can be done?

It should have been sought years ago. The current product looks increasingly beyond saving.

[LordDowlais]

Well, nobody else is talking about it, so:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36640479

I have to say, we are seeing this far to often now, good luck with what ever he decides to do next.

[GavinDragon]

Gutted for the bloke. A great servant for the region, NRFC and PRFC.

We will miss him this season.

[PhilBB]

Again, in the absence of further investment (which is what is being sought) what else can be done?

Right now? Only one thing: set a deadline for potential buyers and put a plan in place for what happens if none arrives.

What we are seeing now is the natural evolution from the comments of Godfrey and Hazell when they discouraged the chanting of 'Newport' from the terraces. They set their stall out as a 'regional' team and, since that day, the income has dropped and the product worsened.

They are now too far along that path to have the ability to turn the ship away from the rocks they aimed for.

Any new owners will have their own cash to burn when making their own decision about the direction of the branding, but that's only if new owners actually arrive with any cash.

If I were Pinkie, I'd be noting that Plan B must be to become a much stripped down professional entity that doesn't carry international players, doesn't look to pay a player more than a certain wage but does look to take younger players on loan for a season from the other three. The NGD need to forget the pretence of competing with the other three, lose players like Morgan, Dixon, Amos and the higher earners, but look to take on loan the better younger players from the other three.

For example, if Morgan had joined Cardiff then Willis may not have been signed. Amos should be at the Os. In return, maybe players like Garyn Smith and Keegan Giles would get a season on loan at the NGD. That kind of relationship should work out as beneficial for all parties.

[RiscaGame]

I can't agree that we could be benefitting from players like Giles etc. Unfortunately because of the rot that Lyn has left and with one half of the chuckle brothers still in situ, I don't see how playing young lads like Giles will benefit anybody, as they will still be alongside the likes of The Greatest Flyhalf To Emerge From The Gwent Valleys Since David Watkins and such like.

But yes, they should try and cash in on Morgan and Amos now. Should probably have done so when their stock was highest after the World Cup.

As for the setting their stall out as a regional team, that isn't true either I think or I would have hoped there would be a bit more direction from the board to have fully embraced one name. I don't doubt that people were told not to chant Newport, I just can't believe from there that they didn't go for a one name brand. Even Dragons would work for me rather than them having to test the water between identities all the time.

I don't expect any investment to happen, or I believe it would've happened by now or at least seem a bit closer to happening. So yes there should be a deadline and Pinky should have a plan b ready. Sadly, I think plan B is remain the same and from there I would expect the same mismatch identity to continue as well.

[Stone Motif]

Again, in the absence of further investment (which is what is being sought) what else can be done?

Right now? Only one thing: set a deadline for potential buyers and put a plan in place for what happens if none arrives.

What we are seeing now is the natural evolution from the comments of Godfrey and Hazell when they discouraged the chanting of 'Newport' from the terraces. They set their stall out as a 'regional' team and, since that day, the income has dropped and the product worsened.

They are now too far along that path to have the ability to turn the ship away from the rocks they aimed for.

Any new owners will have their own cash to burn when making their own decision about the direction of the branding, but that's only if new owners actually arrive with any cash.

If I were Pinkie, I'd be noting that Plan B must be to become a much stripped down professional entity that doesn't carry international players, doesn't look to pay a player more than a certain wage but does look to take younger players on loan for a season from the other three. The NGD need to forget the pretence of competing with the other three, lose players like Morgan, Dixon, Amos and the higher earners, but look to take on loan the better younger players from the other three.

For example, if Morgan had joined Cardiff then Willis may not have been signed. Amos should be at the Os. In return, maybe players like Garyn Smith and Keegan Giles would get a season on loan at the NGD. That kind of relationship should work out as beneficial for all parties.

That Plan B has as many holes as Plan A. Although you are right in that they have left themselves little opportunity for manoeuvre by their decade of fiddling while Rome burned.

If the branding and ownership were hypothetically sorted one way or the other, then if you really want to change the fortunes of the NGD the answer is the same as it is for the other three to an extent, get rid of the ludicrous staffing quotas and let them employ whatever coaches and players they want.

[PhilBB]

That Plan B has as many holes as Plan A. Although you are right in that they have left themselves little opportunity for manoeuvre by their decade of fiddling while Rome burned.

If the branding and ownership were hypothetically sorted one way or the other, then if you really want to change the fortunes of the NGD the answer is the same as it is for the other three to an extent, get rid of the ludicrous staffing quotas and let them employ whatever coaches and players they want.

What are the holes for Plan B?

Also, they can employ whatever coaches they want and players, too, so I'm not sure what you mean.

[Stone Motif]

That Plan B has as many holes as Plan A. Although you are right in that they have left themselves little opportunity for manoeuvre by their decade of fiddling while Rome burned.

If the branding and ownership were hypothetically sorted one way or the other, then if you really want to change the fortunes of the NGD the answer is the same as it is for the other three to an extent, get rid of the ludicrous staffing quotas and let them employ whatever coaches and players they want.

What are the holes for Plan B?

Also, they can employ whatever coaches they want and players, too, so I'm not sure what you mean.

For starters, what's the difference between having Jack Dixon and Gary Smith?

I'm talking about relaxing the NWQ limits in the second bit.

[PhilBB]

For starters, what's the difference between having Jack Dixon and Gary Smith?

I'm talking about relaxing the NWQ limits in the second bit.

Smith will be cheaper, will get game exposure he won't get elsewhere whilst Dixon's game will improve elsewhere better than it will at the NGD.

There are no nWq limits. It's just that the payment from the WRU is skewed to keep to a limit. Teams can legally employ who they like.

[Stone Motif]

For starters, what's the difference between having Jack Dixon and Gary Smith?

I'm talking about relaxing the NWQ limits in the second bit.

Smith will be cheaper, will get game exposure he won't get elsewhere whilst Dixon's game will improve elsewhere better than it will at the NGD.

There are no nWq limits. It's just that the payment from the WRU is skewed to keep to a limit. Teams can legally employ who they like.

Says who? Oh yeah, magic osmosis just like Lydiate et al at the O's....

So, a limit in effect then.

[Seagultaf]

Let's all hope that the Dragons sort their problems out and come out firing next season. Outstanding young talents such as Tyler Morgan, Amos, Dixon etc., need to be playing at a higher standard to develop their game. I would like to see Amos have a run at 15, his insisive running could be a real wepon, also Tyler seems to have a problem in defence at 13, and it's usually 13 who leads the outfield defence so this is a real issue. Maybe a spell at wing outside a more experienced 13 may help his development?

[munkian]

Let's all hope that the Dragons sort their problems out and come out firing next season. Outstanding young talents such as Tyler Morgan, Amos, Dixon etc., need to be playing at a higher standard to develop their game. I would like to see Amos have a run at 15, his insisive running could be a real wepon, also Tyler seems to have a problem in defence at 13, and it's usually 13 who leads the outfield defence so this is a real issue. Maybe a spell at wing outside a more experienced 13 may help his development?

Its almost like we need an actual defense coach...

[GavinDragon]

Hearing good things about the impact of Ceri Jones. Sadly I still think we need a better attack/skills coach

[munkian]

So does Wales

[Luckless Pedestrian]

What do we make of the Dragons having a pre-season game against RGC1404 at Eirias Park? When I saw that on Twitter, my first thought was that we'd better blydi win it, or we'll get people saying they should replace us in the Pro12, et cetera et cetera.

[RiscaGame]

Apparently it isn't confirmed and RGC have jumped the gun. How that is possible, I don't know.

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/14608162.RGC_jump_the_gun_with_Dragons_friendly_announcement/?ref=twtrec

What I read though, is it seems like a half arsed game anyway so we really are on a hiding to nothing. It'll be like the last Gwent Prem select game we lost etc where we will literally just be coasting and RGC will be going hell for leather.

[RiscaGame]

Hearing good things about the impact of Ceri Jones. Sadly I still think we need a better attack/skills coach

Not sure anybody can say he has made an impact yet, given we have yet to play any game. Who is saying that?

[RiscaGame]

Let's all hope that the Dragons sort their problems out and come out firing next season. Outstanding young talents such as Tyler Morgan, Amos, Dixon etc., need to be playing at a higher standard to develop their game. I would like to see Amos have a run at 15, his insisive running could be a real wepon, also Tyler seems to have a problem in defence at 13, and it's usually 13 who leads the outfield defence so this is a real issue. Maybe a spell at wing outside a more experienced 13 may help his development?

Its almost like we need an actual defense coach...

I gather both Dixon and Morgan are pretty quiet when they play, which doesn't really help a defensive line or attack etc. I would really have had to have had Ashley Smith helping out those two, as other than Pat Leach he was our defensive man and had a calming influence on our tens etc.

But it is farcical that we don't have a defensive coach. But then again, we've only just taken on a full time forwards coach, so one thing at a time

[Stone Motif]

Apparently it isn't confirmed and RGC have jumped the gun. How that is possible, I don't know.

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/14608162.RGC_jump_the_gun_with_Dragons_friendly_announcement/?ref=twtrec

What I read though, is it seems like a half arsed game anyway so we really are on a hiding to nothing. It'll be like the last Gwent Prem select game we lost etc where we will literally just be coasting and RGC will be going hell for leather.

Lord Bowelais is stroking a carpet clad thigh in anticipation no doubt

[Stone Motif]

Let's all hope that the Dragons sort their problems out and come out firing next season. Outstanding young talents such as Tyler Morgan, Amos, Dixon etc., need to be playing at a higher standard to develop their game. I would like to see Amos have a run at 15, his insisive running could be a real wepon, also Tyler seems to have a problem in defence at 13, and it's usually 13 who leads the outfield defence so this is a real issue. Maybe a spell at wing outside a more experienced 13 may help his development?

Its almost like we need an actual defense coach...

I gather both Dixon and Morgan are pretty quiet when they play, which doesn't really help a defensive line or attack etc. I would really have had to have had Ashley Smith helping out those two, as other than Pat Leach he was our defensive man and had a calming influence on our tens etc.

But it is farcical that we don't have a defensive coach. But then again, we've only just taken on a full time forwards coach, so one thing at a time

They're both very young though aren't they, which is another hole in Plan BB to bring in the zygotes from the other regions

[RiscaGame]

Yeah they are both very young. I'd have thought you're either a mouth, or you're not though.

[GavinDragon]

Hearing good things about the impact of Ceri Jones. Sadly I still think we need a better attack/skills coach

Not sure anybody can say he has made an impact yet, given we have yet to play any game. Who is saying that?

The players

[mikey_dragon]

Phil if you could refrain from going Gwyn Jones on us that would be great.

[Stone Motif]

Phil if you could refrain from going Gwyn Jones on us that would be great.

Asset-stripping the drags for the good of Team Wales does seem to be at odds with his general view on the pro game in Wales.

[RiscaGame]

Hearing good things about the impact of Ceri Jones. Sadly I still think we need a better attack/skills coach

Not sure anybody can say he has made an impact yet, given we have yet to play any game. Who is saying that?

The players

They probably said Lyp was a good coach at some point, so I'll wait until passing judgement

[Guest]

Phil if you could refrain from going Gwyn Jones on us that would be great.

Asset-stripping the drags for the good of Team Wales does seem to be at odds with his general view on the pro game in Wales.

It also seems at odds with Phil's stance on the Irish sides. He seems to suggest that the Welsh regions are hamstrung by the WRU and points to the upturn in fortunes of the Irish sides (e.g. Connacht recently) as evidence that that the IRFU pumps money into the sides and 'buys success', which he seems to imply the WRU should be doing more. However, now he wants a development region and concentration of resources into just the 3 regions at the expense of the Dragons? Odd.

[PhilBB]

Says who? Oh yeah, magic osmosis just like Lydiate et al at the O's....

So, a limit in effect then.

Hang on, are you claiming that players don't improve alongside better players in better environments?

[PhilBB]

Asset-stripping the drags for the good of Team Wales does seem to be at odds with his general view on the pro game in Wales.

It's not for the good of Team Wales alone. It's for the good of the NGD. They have many confused identities and one of them is that they are trying to compete with the other three.

They aren't.

Because they cannot.

[PhilBB]

It also seems at odds with Phil's stance on the Irish sides.  He seems to suggest that the Welsh regions are hamstrung by the WRU and points to the upturn in fortunes of the Irish sides (e.g. Connacht recently) as evidence that that the IRFU pumps money into the sides and 'buys success', which he seems to imply the WRU should be doing more.  However, now he wants a development region and concentration of resources into just the 3 regions at the expense of the Dragons?  Odd.  

My point of view is that the majority of the payment for player access from the WRU should come from a daily rate paid for the players they access - just like the French do.

The French model is the correct model - name two groups of players at this time of the season and pay for access to those.

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/what-to-do-roger/ I wrote that three years ago. The bullet points are now, pretty much, what the FFR / LNR are doing.

The NGD get their equal participation money but they cannot compete with the off field income generation of the other three, so they shouldn't try to pretend they can. It's their own doing that has led them down that path.

[Stone Motif]

Says who? Oh yeah, magic osmosis just like Lydiate et al at the O's....

So, a limit in effect then.

Hang on, are you claiming that players don't improve alongside better players in better environments?

There's no justification to say that on its own is enough to promote improvement. Lydiate did not improve at Racing. He hasn't improved at the Ospreys.

I'm also doubting the environment is that much better at the other three, and seeing that as these better players spend the majority of the season with Gatland anyway, moving regions to play alongside them is a nonsense.

[Stone Motif]

It also seems at odds with Phil's stance on the Irish sides.  He seems to suggest that the Welsh regions are hamstrung by the WRU and points to the upturn in fortunes of the Irish sides (e.g. Connacht recently) as evidence that that the IRFU pumps money into the sides and 'buys success', which he seems to imply the WRU should be doing more.  However, now he wants a development region and concentration of resources into just the 3 regions at the expense of the Dragons?  Odd.  

My point of view is that the majority of the payment for player access from the WRU should come from a daily rate paid for the players they access - just like the French do.

The French model is the correct model - name two groups of players at this time of the season and pay for access to those.

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/what-to-do-roger/ I wrote that three years ago. The bullet points are now, pretty much, what the FFR / LNR are doing.

The NGD get their equal participation money but they cannot compete with the off field income generation of the other three, so they shouldn't try to pretend they can. It's their own doing that has led them down that path.

By that logic, none of our pro teams should bother trying to retain their better players, as they cannot compete with the off field income generation of their competitors in England & France. They'd be playing with better players abroad to boot.

[mikey_dragon]

It's the Saracens model we should be following IMO... Definitely not the French one! I can't see why Phil dislikes the Irish model so much, it benefits them greatly.

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