Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

[Luckless Pedestrian]

First topic message reminder :

With Warburton, I can only conclude that they like him as captain because of how he deals with referees. He's very respectful towards them.

[PhilBB]

There's no justification to say that on its own is enough to promote improvement. Lydiate did not improve at Racing. He hasn't improved at the Ospreys.

I'm also doubting the environment is that much better at the other three, and seeing that as these better players spend the majority of the season with Gatland anyway, moving regions to play alongside them is a nonsense.

Well, they obviously do not spend the majority of the season with Gatland. So that's put that to bed.

If you doubt the environment is better at the other three and you doubt that players improve alongside better players, how do you explain the obvious and growing gulf in quality between the three and the NGD?

You seem to be arguing against conventional wisdom so I'm interested in you putting some meat on the bones of that opinion.

[PhilBB]

By that logic, none of our pro teams should bother trying to retain their better players, as they cannot compete with the off field income generation of their competitors in England & France. They'd be playing with better players abroad to boot.

I think that you must have misread the link if that's your conclusion.

The 'logic' is that PRW teams are rewarded for producing international players and, at the same time, compensated adequately for their loss. This double whammy allows them to maintain that talent and surround it by better quality players.

It is payment for success which, of course, does the exact opposite of your interpretation of it.

[PhilBB]

It's the Saracens model we should be following IMO... Definitely not the French one! I can't see why Phil dislikes the Irish model so much, it benefits them greatly.

The Irish model is great if our teams didn't play in a league with Irish teams.

What's the issue with the French model? It's pretty much the same as the English model but with a direct payment as a daily rate. So what differences are you seeing?

[LordDowlais]

Phil, what makes you think that the Cardiff Blues are any better than Dragons ?

Cardiff Blues do not supply that much more players to team Wales, and the one's they do supply are not starters, Warburton aside.

Gareth Anscombe - Squad filler
Kristian Dacey - Squad filler if picked
Tom James - Should be nowhere near the Welsh squad
Ellis Jenkins - Squad filler if picked
Gethin Jenkins - Not much caps left in him
Lloyd Williams - Should be nowhere near the Welsh squad

On the other hand Dragons better players should be there ahead of some of the Cardiff Blues players.

Hallam Amos - Better than Cuthbert and Tom James
Taulupe Falatua - Best 8 we've got
Tyler Morgan - Should be in the squad on merit

Even players like Ashton Hewitt are better than the wingers Cardiff supply. So if we are going to go down the road you want, with the WRU only paying for the players that they use, then Cardiff Blues would be a hell of a lot worst off than they are now.

Which bring me back to my original point, Cardiff will have to make up the difference in funding themselves.

[PhilBB]

Phil, what makes you think that the Cardiff Blues are any better than Dragons ?

Cardiff Blues do not supply that much more players to team Wales, and the one's they do supply are not starters, Warburton aside.

Gareth Anscombe - Squad filler
Kristian Dacey - Squad filler if picked
Tom James - Should be nowhere near the Welsh squad
Ellis Jenkins - Squad filler if picked
Gethin Jenkins - Not much caps left in him
Lloyd Williams - Should be nowhere near the Welsh squad

On the other hand Dragons better players should be there ahead of some of the Cardiff Blues players.

Hallam Amos - Better than Cuthbert and Tom James
Taulupe Falatua - Best 8 we've got
Tyler Morgan - Should be in the squad on merit

Even players like Ashton Hewitt are better than the wingers Cardiff supply. So if we are going to go down the road you want, with the WRU only paying for the players that they use, then Cardiff Blues would be a hell of a lot worst off than they are now.

Which bring me back to my original point, Cardiff will have to make up the difference in funding themselves.

So, just to clarify, you claim "with the WRU only paying for the players that they use, then Cardiff Blues would be a hell of a lot worst off than they are now" shortly after you've written the list that shows the number of players that the WRU use?

[LordDowlais]

shortly after you've written the list that shows the number of players that the WRU use?

I have also given my reasons next to those players. Also, Cardiff Blues are getting a hell of a lot better deal out out of the WRU than Ospreys and Scarlets.

Unless Cardiff Blues unearth some gems, the French model, which you are championing, and one which I agree with by the way, will make Cardiff Blues a lot worse off in the future. Players like Gethin Jenkins are past their international sell by date, Ellis Jenkins faces a fight between Warburton, Tuperic, and James Davies, Tom James and Alex Cuthbert's days are numbered, as is Lloyd Williams.

So where would Cardiff Blues fill the void left by not getting money for players provided to Wales ?

[munkian]

But..but..but... Cardiff RFC !

[PhilBB]

I have also given my reasons next to those players. Also, Cardiff Blues are getting a hell of a lot better deal out out of the WRU than Ospreys and Scarlets.

Unless Cardiff Blues unearth some gems, the French model, which you are championing, and one which I agree with by the way, will make Cardiff Blues a lot worse off in the future. Players like Gethin Jenkins are past their international sell by date, Ellis Jenkins faces a fight between Warburton, Tuperic, and James Davies, Tom James and Alex Cuthbert's days are numbered, as is Lloyd Williams.

So where would Cardiff Blues fill the void left by not getting money for players provided to Wales ?

But your reasons are at odds with Gatland's decisions, thus proving your reasons to be irrelevant.

My preferred system isn't designed for the benefit of Cardiff, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

The French model of a basic payment and then a daily access rate is the way to go. I've no idea if that would make Cardiff more or less money. I don't care about that.

[LordDowlais]

Phil, side stepping yet again.

You are constantly moaning about funding from the WRU. You reckon the regions do not get enough. So if we were to adopt the French model, then Cardiff Blues would lose out on a hell of a lot of funding as they do not supply the same amount of players to team Wales as others do. Then you accuse Newport Gwent Dragons of not being able to compete because of funding, yet Cardiff Blues would be in the same boat as them.

If we were to adopt the French approach in Wales, where would Cardiff Blues regain the monies lost by not supplying team Wales with enough players ?

[RiscaGame]

This the Blues family thread now?

[LordDowlais]

This the Blues family thread now?

Nope, just pointing out the hypocrisy in Phil's statements. He is calling Dragons over, when his team, Cardiff Blues are not much better.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The Blues are better than the Dragons - the table doesn't lie. They're second, we're down in eighth:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/pro12/table

[Stone Motif]

There's no justification to say that on its own is enough to promote improvement. Lydiate did not improve at Racing. He hasn't improved at the Ospreys.

I'm also doubting the environment is that much better at the other three, and seeing that as these better players spend the majority of the season with Gatland anyway, moving regions to play alongside them is a nonsense.

Well, they obviously do not spend the majority of the season with Gatland. So that's put that to bed.

If you doubt the environment is better at the other three and you doubt that players improve alongside better players, how do you explain the obvious and growing gulf in quality between the three and the NGD?

You seem to be arguing against conventional wisdom so I'm interested in you putting some meat on the bones of that opinion.

You've bemoaned the amount of access Cement has to the players so you know what I mean.

I said that much better. In relative terms. I think the gulf is down to retention of players, and agree this goes back to the abortive start the NGD had and the failure of our board to stop the rot. I don't see anything however that suggests any of the four are anywhere near RCC1 level so I don't think the environments there are enough to improve the players. Pick me your list of players who have improved by moving down the M4 if you like. Just because they're less sh1t than the Dragons, doesn't mean there aren't still flies buzzing round.

[Stone Motif]

By that logic, none of our pro teams should bother trying to retain their better players, as they cannot compete with the off field income generation of their competitors in England & France. They'd be playing with better players abroad to boot.

I think that you must have misread the link if that's your conclusion.

The 'logic' is that PRW teams are rewarded for producing international players and, at the same time, compensated adequately for their loss. This double whammy allows them to maintain that talent and surround it by better quality players.

It is payment for success which, of course, does the exact opposite of your interpretation of it.

Well, maybe if we did have the French system but we don't, do we?

[LordDowlais]

Pick me your list of players who have improved by moving down the M4 if you like. Just because they're less sh1t than the Dragons, doesn't mean there aren't still flies buzzing round.

Exactly, no need for a list, just look at Tovey. He did not exactly thrive at Cardiff, in fact he regressed. They friggin ruined him.

[LordDowlais]

It is payment for success which, of course, does the exact opposite of your interpretation of it.

Well, Scarlets and Ospreys would be quids in, the other two might fall further behind.

[mikey_dragon]

It's the Saracens model we should be following IMO... Definitely not the French one! I can't see why Phil dislikes the Irish model so much, it benefits them greatly.

The Irish model is great if our teams didn't play in a league with Irish teams.

What's the issue with the French model? It's pretty much the same as the English model but with a direct payment as a daily rate. So what differences are you seeing?

Destroying their national team, for several years.

[mikey_dragon]

There's no justification to say that on its own is enough to promote improvement. Lydiate did not improve at Racing. He hasn't improved at the Ospreys.

I'm also doubting the environment is that much better at the other three, and seeing that as these better players spend the majority of the season with Gatland anyway, moving regions to play alongside them is a nonsense.

Well, they obviously do not spend the majority of the season with Gatland. So that's put that to bed.

If you doubt the environment is better at the other three and you doubt that players improve alongside better players, how do you explain the obvious and growing gulf in quality between the three and the NGD?

You seem to be arguing against conventional wisdom so I'm interested in you putting some meat on the bones of that opinion.

You've bemoaned the amount of access Cement has to the players so you know what I mean.

I said that much better. In relative terms. I think the gulf is down to retention of players, and agree this goes back to the abortive start the NGD had and the failure of our board to stop the rot.  I don't see anything however that suggests any of the four are anywhere near RCC1 level so I don't think the environments there are enough to improve the players. Pick me your list of players who have improved by moving down the M4 if you like.  Just because they're less sh1t than the Dragons, doesn't mean there aren't still flies buzzing round.

If there's a huge gulf between NGD and 'the other three' then why haven't those three been pulling up trees in Europe in the past couple seasons? They haven't, have they? They mostly get demolished. Moot point then Phil.

[PhilBB]

Phil, side stepping yet again.

You are constantly moaning about funding from the WRU. You reckon the regions do not get enough. So if we were to adopt the French model, then Cardiff Blues would lose out on a hell of a lot of funding as they do not supply the same amount of players to team Wales as others do. Then you accuse Newport Gwent Dragons of not being able to compete because of funding, yet Cardiff Blues would be in the same boat as them.

If we were to adopt the French approach in Wales, where would Cardiff Blues regain the monies lost by not supplying team Wales with enough players ?

Not funding - payment for services provided. The market rate for those services.

As you've no idea how the funding model would play out, you've based a question on a false premise. It's a tired old message board tactic that fools nobody over the age of 20.

As for teams plural that may lose a chunk of money, it's up to them to improve their business in order to maintain a strong enough playing base within the Team Wales national squads.

[PhilBB]

This the Blues family thread now?

Nope, just pointing out the hypocrisy in Phil's statements. He is calling Dragons over, when his team, Cardiff Blues are not much better.

Mate, you need to learn a simple fact:

My belief is that the French (extension of the English system) is the best model. I don't base my decisions on what is best for Cardiff. Hence, there's no hypocrisy.

Let's hope that you can comprehend that.

[PhilBB]

You've bemoaned the amount of access Cement has to the players so you know what I mean.

I said that much better. In relative terms. I think the gulf is down to retention of players, and agree this goes back to the abortive start the NGD had and the failure of our board to stop the rot.  I don't see anything however that suggests any of the four are anywhere near RCC1 level so I don't think the environments there are enough to improve the players. Pick me your list of players who have improved by moving down the M4 if you like.  Just because they're less sh1t than the Dragons, doesn't mean there aren't still flies buzzing round.

I've bemoaned the access because the compensation is insufficient.

I'm not sure what this arbitrary 'RCC1 level' actually is.

If you've agreed that players are 'less sh1t' then you've agreed they've improved, so that's a bit contradictory.

If the gulf is down to 'retention of players' then you've agreed that the players are better in the teams that aren't the NGD. Therefore, that's also contradictory to a belief that players don't improve in better environments.

[PhilBB]

Destroying their national team, for several years.  

The French model is new, Mikey. It hasn't been in place for 'several years'. It was augmented only last week.

[PhilBB]

If there's a huge gulf between NGD and 'the other three' then why haven't those three been pulling up trees in Europe in the past couple seasons? They haven't, have they? They mostly get demolished. Moot point then Phil.

Hang on, you're comparing the three against two different yardsticks.

They can be considerably better than the NGD AND considerably worse than Leinster. That's blindingly obvious, which makes your post most odd.

One of the major reasons that PRW teams are comparatively poor is that their playing budget is at the bottom end of the European table. Why? Two reasons: the sum the WRU pay and the way they pay it.

[PhilBB]

Exactly, no need for a list, just look at Tovey. He did not exactly thrive at Cardiff, in fact he regressed. They friggin ruined him.

Ruined him so much that he had to leave the NGD, too.

Or, more accurately, he wasn't as good as Rhys Patchell so didn't get selected.

[PhilBB]

Of course, the point about players improving after moving from the NGD misses the crucial fact that the NGD have, until this crop of youngsters, barely produced a player good enough for first team rugby elsewhere.

Now we have three or four with that chance whilst those moving on will also allow the NGD to replace them with more quality throughout the squad. It's a win-win until the NGD can afford to keep those players AND add more quality throughout the squad.

The reasoning is quite obvious.

[LordDowlais]

As for teams plural that may lose a chunk of money, it's up to them to improve their business in order to maintain a strong enough playing base within the Team Wales national squads.

Phil what a fecking hypocrite you are. You were arguing against this point with me on another thread, now that it suits you, you are agreeing with it. What is it you said that only works on 20yr olds ?

FFS, you are seriously making yourself look more of a liar with every post you put on here.

Anyway, as you asked me on this topic on another thread, how would the regions make this money ? Any ideas ?

[PhilBB]

Phil what a fecking hypocrite you are. You were arguing against this point with me on another thread, now that it suits you, you are agreeing with it. What is it you said that only works on 20yr olds ?

FFS, you are seriously making yourself look more of a liar with every post you put on here.

Anyway, as you asked me on this topic on another thread, how would the regions make this money ? Any ideas ?

Bloody hell, you don't half conflate.

Let's get this back to the basic to see if you understand: if the WRU pay the market rate and it is split on the French model, why are you assuming that any of the four will be financially worse off?

Please do explain how you have arrived at the basis of your questioning and accusations. Or, cut out the obfuscation, and admit that you're guessing.

[Stone Motif]

I've bemoaned the access because the compensation is insufficient.

I'm not sure what this arbitrary 'RCC1 level' actually is.

If you've agreed that players are 'less sh1t' then you've agreed they've improved, so that's a bit contradictory.

If the gulf is down to 'retention of players' then you've agreed that the players are better in the teams that aren't the NGD. Therefore, that's also contradictory to a belief that players don't improve in better environments.

The compensation is inadequate in part because he enjoys greater access to players than he would in any other nation.

I've agreed nothing of the sort. Now who's conflating? Again, pick me your list of players that have genuinely improved at other pro teams and which aspects of their game in particular the better environments helped them improve, if you like.

[Stone Motif]

Of course, the point about players improving after moving from the NGD misses the crucial fact that the NGD have, until this crop of youngsters, barely produced a player good enough for first team rugby elsewhere.

Now we have three or four with that chance whilst those moving on will also allow the NGD to replace them with more quality throughout the squad. It's a win-win until the NGD can afford to keep those players AND add more quality throughout the squad.

The reasoning is quite obvious.

More quality? That's some vote of confidence in the talents of a bunch of kids who've barely paid any senior rugby.

[LordDowlais]

Phil what a fecking hypocrite you are. You were arguing against this point with me on another thread, now that it suits you, you are agreeing with it. What is it you said that only works on 20yr olds ?

FFS, you are seriously making yourself look more of a liar with every post you put on here.

Anyway, as you asked me on this topic on another thread, how would the regions make this money ? Any ideas ?

Bloody hell, you don't half conflate.

Let's get this back to the basic to see if you understand: if the WRU pay the market rate and it is split on the French model, why are you assuming that any of the four will be financially worse off?

Please do explain how you have arrived at the basis of your questioning and accusations. Or, cut out the obfuscation, and admit that you're guessing.

Look Phil, I do not intend to keep going over cr@p with you on here, you are a better side stepper than Shane Williams. Now for everybody else, if you want to see how much of a hypocrite Phil is, then read his comment above about the Regions needing to increase their own funding, then skim through this article on how he says they cannot:-

https://www.606v2.com/t63479-are-the-wru-increasing-the-funds-for-ndc-s

[PhilBB]

The compensation is inadequate in part because he enjoys greater access to players than he would in any other nation.

I've agreed nothing of the sort. Now who's conflating? Again, pick me your list of players that have genuinely improved at other pro teams and which aspects of their game in particular the better environments helped them improve, if you like.

You've seen that Noves now gets 120 days of access. That would be about the same as Gatland has enjoyed for years.

Your own words, that you wrote, showed that you agreed. There's no need for a list for the reasons I gave above.

[PhilBB]

More quality? That's some vote of confidence in the talents of a bunch of kids who've barely paid any senior rugby.

You've lost me, sorry. My point is clear: don't invest in four players who will make no difference but share the same investment across eight players who will make a difference.

[PhilBB]

Look Phil, I do not intend to keep going over cr@p with you on here, you are a better side stepper than Shane Williams. Now for everybody else, if you want to see how much of a hypocrite Phil is, then read his comment above about the Regions needing to increase their own funding, then skim through this article on how he says they cannot:-

https://www.606v2.com/t63479-are-the-wru-increasing-the-funds-for-ndc-s

So you can't answer the basic question that underpins the false reasoning you've used in your own line of questioning. Well, well. There's a shock.

Why do you play this stupid message board tactic of asking a question based on your own false reasoning? It's so easy to spot and undo. It makes you look disingenuous and a troll. It shows that you cannot support your own claimed reasoning and that makes you either empty headed or a really, really poor wind up.

Your point about increasing income is undone by your refusal to accept the relevance of the existing RSA, your constant referral to PRW winning a war that they did not, your regular claims that PRW got all they wanted in an RSA that clearly is insufficient. Your claimed beliefs are, therefore, easy to disprove but all you do, instead of accepting the logic and wisdom that shows you to be wrong, is continue to bang the drum that has been disproven. That makes you look like a troll. It makes you look like you deliberately write inaccuracies in order to flame debates. It's what you do.

Here, you are conflating PRW teams increasing their own income (which we all agree they can and should do) with payments from the WRU for services provided. They are two different issues. You cannot prove that any of the four would be worse off than they are presently are should the WRU (As they should do) adopt the model of the French (Which is a model based on what the English already do, but supplemented by the requirements of French law). You cannot show that any of the four would be worse off, yet you are pushing a line of questioning that assumes they will be. In a nutshell, that's proof of your willingness to write inaccuracies in order to flame debates.

There are many, many different ways that any of the four can increase their income. None of that is in doubt. What you're confusing is their ability to increase income in the main drivers of their business: competition income, broadcast income and National Union payments for services provided. Those are the three main sources of income that provide the competitive advantage that their cross border competitors enjoy greater returns from, thus making them relatively stronger. Once you've accepted that, then you can move on to the supplementary forms of income that fund a rugby team.

In the meantime, you're deliberately conflating the two which empty headily refusing to even address the fundamental hole in your thinking that has led you to believe that any of the four would be worse off under the French system of payments. A thinking the you cannot prove so refuse to even attempt to prove. Instead, you cowardly hide between meaningless words like 'liar' simply because I've easily shown you to be baseless troll that you are and a pretty dreadful one at that.

[RiscaGame]

Anyway, no more Sunday games. Which means Dragons will be playing on Fridays more and more, I suspect. Amazing news.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Really? No Sunday games across the board?

The Pro12 website still doesn't have the fixtures up.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php

[RiscaGame]

The Wail has said aye. S4C are moving to Saturday night slots.

Fixtures at midday. But apparently we are away first.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

That's really good news.

[RiscaGame]

I guess we will be having a few double headers with Newport RFC on a few weekends. Their derbies anyway. It is brilliant news.

[munkian]

Thats cracking, no more Sunday commutes from Bristol and blurry head in work on Monday.

Urban Tap House is going to get a kicking

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Looks like we'll be playing the Scarlets at Judgement Day. I make that the third season in a row.

[munkian]

Looks like we'll be playing the Scarlets at Judgement Day. I make that the third season in a row.

Sigh

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