Qualification for Europe

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

Actually the GAA has been going on for the last couple of months. The alliance league is currently underway... Plus local teams play all through the winter.

LordDowlais wrote:I love it when the Irish use the GAA as means to justify their ends, even though GAA and rugby union are played at different times of the year.

I take it theres no rugby this weekend as there is loads of GAA on

27/02/16
Division One
Dublin v Monaghan, Croke Park, 19:00

Division Two
Armagh v Fermanagh, Athletic Grounds, Armagh, 19:00

28/02/16
Division One
Cork v Roscommon, Páirc Uí Rinn, Cork, 14:00
Donegal v Mayo, MacCumhaill Park, Ballybofey, 14:00
Down v Kerry, Páirc Esler, Newry 14:00

Division Two
Derry v Galway, Celtic Park, Derry, 14:00
Laois v Tyrone, O’Moore Park, Portlaoise, 14:00
Meath v Cavan, Páirc Tailteann, Navan, 14:00

Division Three
Longford v Kildare, Glennon Brothers Pearse Park Longford, 14:00
Offaly v Sligo, O’Connor Park, Tullamore, 14:00
Westmeath v Tipperary, Cusack Park, Mullingar, 14:00
Limerick v Clare, Newcastlewest, Limerick, 14:00

Division Four
Wexford v London, Innovate Wexford Park, Wexford, 13:00
Antrim v Leitrim, Corrigan Park, Belfast, 14:00
Carlow v Waterford, Netwatch Cullen Park, Carlow, 14:00
Louth v Wicklow, Gaelic Grounds, Drogheda, 14:00

They might overlap, but they are both at opposite ends of the calendar.

LordDowlais wrote:They might overlap, but they are both at opposite ends of the calendar.

So there is really only 2 months that there is no overlap, December and January the rest all have fixtures. Meaning there are only 2 of the 9 months that rugby is played that there is no GAA, hardly opposite ends of the Calendar.

Also, please can you explain the participation numbers, by my reconing it equates to 750+ players per club yet when I search the web the total figure is not defined between rugby union registered players and GAA registered players, it is all as one.

How does this work ?

Are they dual registered or something ?

Kingshu wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:They might overlap, but they are both at opposite ends of the calendar.

So there is really only 2 months that there is no overlap, December and January the rest all have fixtures. Meaning there are only 2 of the 9 months that rugby is played that there is no GAA, hardly opposite ends of the Calendar.

What about May to September when there is no rugby, GAA is played then as we'll isn't it ?

Why does it matter when rugby isn't being played?

True Raven wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.

Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.

I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

Cardiff rfc weren't getting large crowds prior to the blues being formed, I don't know why you think the blues will automatically get loads more

Supporters were already cheesed years before reejunalism and the magical switchover in 2003, when everybody's computer was predicted to go haywire, didn't materialise. All carried on as normal, attendances continued to drop and Cardiff were still Cardiff on Monday morning. Best attended game i've witnessed was just after the rebel season in 99 or 2000. Nowt's come close since.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

True Raven wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.

Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.

I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

Cardiff rfc weren't getting large crowds prior to the blues being formed, I don't know why you think the blues will automatically get loads more

Supporters were already cheesed years before reejunalism and the magical switchover in 2003, when everybody's computer was predicted to go haywire, didn't materialise. All carried on as normal, attendances continued to drop and Cardiff were still Cardiff on Monday morning. Best attended game i've witnessed was just after the rebel season in 99 or 2000. Nowt's come close since.

The semi final against Leicester?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

True Raven wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.

Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.

I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

Cardiff rfc weren't getting large crowds prior to the blues being formed, I don't know why you think the blues will automatically get loads more

Supporters were already cheesed years before reejunalism and the magical switchover in 2003, when everybody's computer was predicted to go haywire, didn't materialise. All carried on as normal, attendances continued to drop and Cardiff were still Cardiff on Monday morning. Best attended game i've witnessed was just after the rebel season in 99 or 2000. Nowt's come close since.

The semi final against Leicester?

Thanks for the reminder. I'll have nightmares again tonight.
I meant a bog standard at The Arms Park rather than a fancy meeting at the Millstone.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

True Raven wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.

Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.

I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

Cardiff rfc weren't getting large crowds prior to the blues being formed, I don't know why you think the blues will automatically get loads more

Supporters were already cheesed years before reejunalism and the magical switchover in 2003, when everybody's computer was predicted to go haywire, didn't materialise. All carried on as normal, attendances continued to drop and Cardiff were still Cardiff on Monday morning. Best attended game i've witnessed was just after the rebel season in 99 or 2000. Nowt's come close since.

The semi final against Leicester?

Thanks for the reminder. I'll have nightmares again tonight.
I meant a bog standard at The Arms Park rather than a fancy meeting at the Millstone.

Ah, What about the game they won against Toulon at the CAP? I thought that was a sell out.

LordDowlais wrote:I love it when the Irish use the GAA as means to justify their ends, even though GAA and rugby union are played at different times of the year.

GAA is played all year round

Can anybody shine any light on the participation numbers ?

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I find this very interesting, as Wales has more clubs but less registered players, I wanted to check this out, and after doing some research, I do not know why, but the participation numbers for registered rugby union players players in Ireland includes the registered GAA players as well, why is everything in Ireland so murky ? Why can't things be more cut and dried over there ?

Maybe you'd like to provide a source for that because maybe that's whats murky

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody shine any light on the participation numbers ?

The battle for the hearts and minds of the Irish sporting youth has long been a contentious and highly political one. Soccer sits atop the pile with 340,070 participants across the country in 2,500 clubs. The GAA finds itself in second place with 294, 577 registered players across 2,359 clubs. Rugby, though growing, is a distant third with 158,685 registered players and 236 clubs.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody shine any light on the participation numbers ?

The battle for the hearts and minds of the Irish sporting youth has long been a contentious and highly political one. Soccer sits atop the pile with 340,070 participants across the country in 2,500 clubs. The GAA finds itself in second place with 294, 577 registered players across 2,359 clubs. Rugby, though growing, is a distant third with 158,685 registered players and 236 clubs.

Are the GAA stats Gaelic, Hurling and Camogie combined?

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

Munchkin wrote:
Let's see the breakdown of figures?

http://sport360.com/article/business-sport/29212/360business-european-rugbys-finest-must-be-competitive-and-field

Didn't you know?

marty2086 wrote:
So its up to the WRU to fund the (mostly)privately owned regions yet the IRFU put too much money into their own companies?

No.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

Why would they publish them? Its private information

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

How does this devalue the league exactly?

Because the point of a league is that it is competed on by the efforts of the competitors, not at the whim of one that controls four of the entrants.

It's why good sports prevent owners controlling more than one team in a league.

carpet baboon wrote:Devalue the league?
The way I see it we all went professional at the same time, some managed it better than others.
While Ireland sorted themselves out and got 3 teams looking to compete with the best, we left one for years to struggle. Now we're in a position to fund all 4 teams, which now , on the face of things looks like we will have all 4 fighting it out for something at the end of the year.

Now compare to the half arsed welsh infighting arguing and bitching between clubs regions and WRU, you can understand why a minority of welsh fans are a little disenfranchised, especially when you see how well the national team has done.

So it's only natural that they lash out at there more successful teams over the sea, especially as now all 4 are getting to the top, and look to run to there English neighbours (the fact the PRL wouldn't touch them is by the by).

But surely if the league has been devalued it's not the Irish who have tried to do things professional for all there regions and national team, but clearly the welsh for ballsing up professionalism.

Now if only they could start to row in the same direction as the rest of us, maybe they will cheer up and see life ain't that bad.

But not sure that's what some want, which is a shame

Yep, that's about right. The IRFU achieved success by spending. We've got there.

The Great Aukster wrote:It's an interesting concept that those sides that become more professional in their approach are devaluing the League. Some would obviously like a return to baggy shirts, leather balls and awarding three points for a try.

Maybe this site should consider forgetting the internet and be solely based on hand-written correspondence?

The side didn't get more professional in their approach. It got money it didn't earn itself or take a risk on borrowing itself.

I'm amazed that I had to clarify something so simple.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Population has nothing to do with it, just look at the likes of Oyonnax.

What an amazing comment.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
How many other top rugby clubs are in Cardiff?  You can't seriously suggest that Cardiff rfc has an huge impact on the support of the blues? It's hard for people to get behind poor performing teams. I remember the Ospreys getting 10k against Ulster the season after winning the league. The support is there, just need a few good consecutive seasons.

Cardiff RFC is Cardiff Blues.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

How does this devalue the league exactly?

Because the point of a league is that it is competed on by the efforts of the competitors, not at the whim of one that controls four of the entrants.

It's why good sports prevent owners controlling more than one team in a league.

Sorry phill but a private backer who pumps millions Into a team is done on a whim aswell so that must devalue the league also. It's not the team doing it it's the money seems to be your (paper thin) argument,yet you want to run off to the PRL where money has bought the league winners title?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

Why would they publish them? Its private information

Why is it? The IRFU publishes its wage bill, so why not its branches?

carpet baboon wrote:
Sorry phill but a private backer who pumps millions Into a team is done on a whim aswell so that must devalue the league also. It's not the team doing it it's the money seems to be your (paper thin) argument,yet you want to run off to the PRL where money has bought the league winners title?

The money invested is at the risk of the club. That's the point.

In Ireland, the branches take no risk.

So, yes, it is the 'team doing it' as they carry the risk. When the IRFU bought HECs for Leinster and Munster, neither carried a risk. Indeed, Leinster get a ground revamp that costs them nothing, ditto Ulster, whilst Munster's debt to the IRFU is basically now just a peppercorn rent.

Here's hoping that you can understand the difference.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Population has nothing to do with it, just look at the likes of Oyonnax.

What an amazing comment.

Response of the year

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
Sorry phill but a private backer who pumps millions Into a team is done on a whim aswell so that must devalue the league also. It's not the team doing it it's the money seems to be your (paper thin) argument,yet you want to run off to the PRL where money has bought the league winners title?

The money invested is at the risk of the club. That's the point.

In Ireland, the branches take no risk.

So, yes, it is the 'team doing it' as they carry the risk. When the IRFU bought HECs for Leinster and Munster, neither carried a risk. Indeed, Leinster get a ground revamp that costs them nothing, ditto Ulster, whilst Munster's debt to the IRFU is basically now just a peppercorn rent.

Here's hoping that you can understand the difference.

Leinster don't own the Rds, it wasn't up to the branch or the IRFU to upgrade it... How many times does that need to be explained?

Oh I can , still dosent change the fact Welsh rugby outside of the national team has been a mess for years and that sits in its entirety with the welsh clubs, regions and WRU.
You sit there crying about how unfair it is and how going to the PRL will save you all (it won't, they won't touch you with a Big shi**y stick, but I love your delusion they want you)
The fault and solution lies with Wales, it's clubs it's regions, the union and the fans. Stop looking to apportion blame or you will forever have a pretty terrible time of it. Get all representatives together and sort your sh*t out.
Or watch mediocrity prevail.

Enjoy your day phill

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

Why would they publish them? Its private information

Why is it? The IRFU publishes its wage bill, so why not its branches?

The IRFU do so as part of their annual report which I believe is a legal requirement in Ireland as I know the FAI and GAA also publish theirs

What I do love about our phill is he pointblank refuses to entertain the thought that it's the welsh who got them in this situation and it's the welsh (not the PRL) who will get them out.
It just has to be unfair that the IRFU baught titles. I'm amazed he thinks all these other clubs win stuff with no money at all and they all play for the love of the game.
Yes ma'am ney talks it always had no one gets to the top on goodwill.
It again goes back to what happened when rugby turned professional, some daughter private backer some went for more central backing the welsh just watched reruns of 1970s games and hoped for the best.
Well good luck phill, I wish your team the best. I really do, went to watch them win the anglo welsh cup at Twickenham, ended up In rchmond pitcher andpiano with them and the Mosley team who had just beat Leeds before the Cardiff game. Great bunch of lads.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

Why would they publish them? Its private information

Why is it? The IRFU publishes its wage bill, so why not its branches?

The IRFU do so as part of their annual report which I believe is a legal requirement in Ireland as I know the FAI and GAA also publish theirs

Why would we have to be embarrassed that the IRFU can compete with wages in Europe? It's great for us and it's just another reason for the Welsh to be envious towards us.

carpet baboon wrote:What I do love about our phill is he pointblank refuses to entertain the thought that it's the welsh who got them in this situation and it's the welsh (not the PRL) who will get them out.
It just has to be unfair that the IRFU baught titles. I'm amazed he thinks all these other clubs win stuff with no money at all and they all play for the love of the game.
Yes ma'am ney talks it always had no one gets to the top on goodwill.
It again goes back to what happened when rugby turned professional, some daughter private backer some went for more central backing the welsh just watched reruns of 1970s games and hoped for the best.
Well good luck phill, I wish your team the best. I really do, went to watch them win the anglo welsh cup at Twickenham, ended up In rchmond pitcher andpiano with them and the Mosley team who had just beat Leeds before the Cardiff game. Great bunch of lads.

If it's so easy to buy titles what happened to the Ospreys and Cardiff's galaticos teams in Europe?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

And you just prove my point. Well done

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why would we have to be embarrassed that the IRFU can compete with wages in Europe? It's great for us and it's just another reason for the Welsh to be envious towards us.

Nothing to be embarrassed about but why show your hand when you don't have to?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Let's see the breakdown of figures?

http://sport360.com/article/business-sport/29212/360business-european-rugbys-finest-must-be-competitive-and-field

Didn't you know?

So the figures, according to the unreliable article you linked, works out to be around £1.7m for each of the 4 Welsh Regions, and £1.66m for each of the 12 AP sides. Is that really what you're moaning about?

What gets me about this "debate" about the funding of the irish teams is all pro 12 unions have the same funding sources. therefore they have very similar amounts of money to play with.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Devalue the league?
The way I see it we all went professional at the same time, some managed it better than others.
While Ireland sorted themselves out and got 3 teams looking to compete with the best, we left one for years to struggle. Now we're in a position to fund all 4 teams, which now , on the face of things looks like we will have all 4 fighting it out for something at the end of the year.

Now compare to the half arsed welsh infighting arguing and bitching between clubs regions and WRU, you can understand why a minority of welsh fans are a little disenfranchised, especially when you see how well the national team has done.

So it's only natural that they lash out at there more successful teams over the sea, especially as now all 4 are getting to the top, and look to run to there English neighbours (the fact the PRL wouldn't touch them is by the by).

But surely if the league has been devalued it's not the Irish who have tried to do things professional for all there regions and national team, but clearly the welsh for ballsing up professionalism.

Now if only they could start to row in the same direction as the rest of us, maybe they will cheer up and see life ain't that bad.

But not sure that's what some want, which is a shame

Yep, that's about right. The IRFU achieved success by spending. We've got there.

So the IRFU invest in the Provinces, so they can be more viable businesses, the provinces manage to use this to increase attendance, increase sponsorship, increase marketing and build robust businesses and competitive sides.

and you say its the IRFU devaluing the league? You can't really mean that.

Remember its an investment, IRFU put money into the Provinces to make them better businesses and in return they follow the NIQ player limits, and provide players for Ireland.

The SRU do the same, yet I don't recall you saying Glasgow bought the title?

Your grievance seams to be that the IRFU are willing to invest into the Provinces yet the WRU aren't willing to invest as much into the regions.
The SRU has stepped up its investment in its two teams, and have now won the title yet no complaints from you - why?

If anything the WRU are the ones devaluing the league, by not investing in there regions.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody shine any light on the participation numbers ?

The battle for the hearts and minds of the Irish sporting youth has long been a contentious and highly political one. Soccer sits atop the pile with 340,070 participants across the country in 2,500 clubs. The GAA finds itself in second place with 294, 577 registered players across 2,359 clubs. Rugby, though growing, is a distant third with 158,685 registered players and 236 clubs.

So that is 672 people playing at every rugby club ? 

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's an interesting concept that those sides that become more professional in their approach are devaluing the League. Some would obviously like a return to baggy shirts, leather balls and awarding three points for a try.

Maybe this site should consider forgetting the internet and be solely based on hand-written correspondence?

The side didn't get more professional in their approach. It got money it didn't earn itself or take a risk on borrowing itself.

I'm amazed that I had to clarify something so simple.

So, is that a yes?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody shine any light on the participation numbers ?

The battle for the hearts and minds of the Irish sporting youth has long been a contentious and highly political one. Soccer sits atop the pile with 340,070 participants across the country in 2,500 clubs. The GAA finds itself in second place with 294, 577 registered players across 2,359 clubs. Rugby, though growing, is a distant third with 158,685 registered players and 236 clubs.

So that is 672 people playing at every rugby club ? 

Not every player belongs to a club, those who play for schools are included in the players figures but schools are not counted as clubs

TBH I don't think exact numbers matter in this.

Your argument is the regions don't pull in big crowds was because there was too much Rugby in Wales, pulling people away, when it been proved that the issue it actually bigger in Ireland with Rugby and GAA, yet the Provinces still get good crowds.

Making your argument void.

My take on this: is there absolutely, 100%, no possibility that the difference in attendances between Ireland and Wales could be due to differences in culture and sport participating/viewing behaviour? I mean, we're different countries after all. Similar in many ways, but different. But no-one seems to want to address that and instead we get calls for everyone to fall in line with whoever is doing best (attendances, income, etc) at that time.

Why do we have to have the same attendances levels as the Irish? It would be fab for the sport and for business, but what is this necessity to match the Irish attendance figures? All this 'get your sh*t together' and draw in similar crowds to Munster and Leinster, and the myriad reasons why we don't, might just be as simple as Welsh people are less inclined to go to a game than an Irish person. Does that make us bad people? In your eyes, perhaps. But these sort of cultural differences exist. Church going is probably much higher in Ireland than Wales, and that is probably cultural too.

I haven't done a study on it but who knows, you may find people in Columbia less inclined to go to a football match than Brazilians, the French less inclined to turn out to basketball games than the Greeks, etc., etc. I get the point that while we're all in a league together we all need big crowds otherwise we're not 'pulling our weight' or 'getting our sh*t together', but while we're 4 separate countries (in the Pro12) I think it's worthwhile acknowledging that we perhaps have 4 separate and distinct social cultures here that may influence our sport watching habits. Not massively different, but different enough to make an impact. And to give us a million arguments to fight over!

Just a thought.

Griff I do agree with you, but for some posters it's all Ireland's fault and we devalue the whole league, I was just taking the opposite opinion ion from phill because his all consuming "educating" of usirish was a bit patronising.
All I'm saying is find a way that works,stop looking outward atothers and stop laying blame.
I know the Irish aint perfect but I do t look to blame the English for ignoring salary caps as to why we havnt performed in europe. It's our problem that we have to fix it.
But I also suggest that all the pro12 teams and unionshave to work together in some way to improve what we have such as officiating, ko times etc so we all benefit as a whole,

Griff wrote:My take on this:  is there absolutely, 100%, no possibility that the difference in attendances between Ireland and Wales could be due to differences in culture and sport participating/viewing behaviour?  I mean, we're different countries after all.  Similar in many ways, but different.  But no-one seems to want to address that and instead we get calls for everyone to fall in line with whoever is doing best (attendances, income, etc) at that time.

Why do we have to have the same attendances levels as the Irish?  It would be fab for the sport and for business, but what is this necessity to match the Irish attendance figures?  All this 'get your sh*t together' and draw in similar crowds to Munster and Leinster, and the myriad reasons why we don't, might just be as simple as Welsh people are less inclined to go to a game than an Irish person.  Does that make us bad people?  In your eyes, perhaps.  But these sort of cultural differences exist.  Church going is probably much higher in Ireland than Wales, and that is probably cultural too.

I haven't done a study on it but who knows, you may find people in Columbia less inclined to go to a football match than Brazilians, the French less inclined to turn out to basketball games than the Greeks, etc., etc.  I get the point that while we're all in a league together we all need big crowds otherwise we're not 'pulling our weight' or 'getting our sh*t together', but while we're 4 separate countries (in the Pro12) I think it's worthwhile acknowledging that we perhaps have 4 separate and distinct social cultures here that may influence our sport watching habits.  Not massively different, but different enough to make an impact.  And to give us a million arguments to fight over!

Just a thought.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Welsh are bad people, Griff. I certainly don't think so, or that any one nation is 'bad people'. It does seem that a couple of posters, one no longer with us, are saying that Irish rugby is bad people, or at least those who run it, and the only real reason for this is our relative success.

I don't accept that you don't get more bums on seats because it's a cultural thing, although I do accept that club loyalty probably means club supporters are more likely to follow their club than any Region, and that they may even be against the Regions. That is something for WRU and the Regions to solve though, and not something that the IRFU can solve for them. The Provinces being less successful could probably help the Regions become more successful, but only within the context of Pro12. All sides would become less successful within a European context, and Pro12 would be devalued, yet this appears to be what those one or two individuals are calling for, other than the Regions moving to the AP/Championship. A pipe dream at best.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Leinster don't own the Rds, it wasn't up to the branch or the IRFU to upgrade it... How many times does that need to be explained?

Until the annual rent Leinster pay is in the public domain.

Of course, I may have missed it so please let me know the figure.

carpet baboon wrote:Oh I can , still dosent change the fact Welsh rugby outside of the national team has been a mess for years and that sits in its entirety with the welsh clubs, regions and WRU.
You sit there crying about how unfair it is and how going to the PRL will save you all (it won't, they won't touch you with a Big shi**y stick, but I love your delusion they want you)
The fault and solution lies with Wales, it's clubs it's regions, the union and the fans. Stop looking to apportion blame or you will forever have a pretty terrible time of it. Get all representatives together and sort your sh*t out.
Or watch mediocrity prevail.

Enjoy your day phill

Of course, much of the 'Poopie' to sort is that the PrO'12 is not the product that will develop the income necessary to compete in the future.

I'll give it until December until that becomes the narrative of the Irish press as, in their defence, they are just beginning to work it out.

At the moment, they are confused as to the play of the national team returning to its norm after the aberration of the Golden Generation.

marty2086 wrote:

The IRFU do so as part of their annual report which I believe is a legal requirement in Ireland as I know the FAI and GAA also publish theirs

That's right. And if the branches were proper, independent organisations that took on their own risk and looked after their own destiny, they'd do the same.

But they don't.