Qualification for Europe

carpet baboon wrote:What I do love about our phill is he pointblank refuses to entertain the thought that it's the welsh who got them in this situation and it's the welsh (not the PRL) who will get them out.
It just has to be unfair that the IRFU baught titles. I'm amazed he thinks all these other clubs win stuff with no money at all and they all play for the love of the game.
Yes ma'am ney talks it always had no one gets to the top on goodwill.
It again goes back to what happened when rugby turned professional, some daughter private backer some went for more central backing the welsh just watched reruns of 1970s games and hoped for the best.
Well good luck phill, I wish your team the best. I really do, went to watch them win the anglo welsh cup at Twickenham, ended up In rchmond pitcher andpiano with them and the Mosley team who had just beat Leeds before the Cardiff game. Great bunch of lads.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Why would we have to be embarrassed that the IRFU can compete with wages in Europe? It's great for us and it's just another reason for the Welsh to be envious towards us.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
If it's so easy to buy titles what happened to the Ospreys and Cardiff's galaticos teams in Europe?

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

And you just prove my point. Well done

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why would we have to be embarrassed that the IRFU can compete with wages in Europe? It's great for us and it's just another reason for the Welsh to be envious towards us.

Nothing to be embarrassed about but why show your hand when you don't have to?

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Let's see the breakdown of figures?

http://sport360.com/article/business-sport/29212/360business-european-rugbys-finest-must-be-competitive-and-field

Didn't you know?

So the figures, according to the unreliable article you linked, works out to be around £1.7m for each of the 4 Welsh Regions, and £1.66m for each of the 12 AP sides. Is that really what you're moaning about?

TJ wrote:What gets me about this "debate" about the funding of the irish teams is all pro 12 unions have the same funding sources.  therefore they have very similar amounts of money to play with.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

They have their wage bill to hide.

Isn't that obvious?

And you just prove my point. Well done

It's not a conspiracy theory to think that the wage bill is hidden, Champ. It's the blindingly obvious truth. It's a fact, not a theory.

Bloody hell. That's up there with the 7+17=23 in the order of daft posts.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Why would we have to be embarrassed that the IRFU can compete with wages in Europe? It's great for us and it's just another reason for the Welsh to be envious towards us.

Imagine how much better Leinster would be if they were independent?

Sorry, but I couldn't be envious of a Union run system. I wouldn't feel that any success my club achieved was on the back of their own efforts.

Kingshu wrote:

So the IRFU invest in the Provinces, so they can be more viable businesses, the provinces manage to use this to increase attendance, increase sponsorship, increase marketing and build robust businesses and competitive sides.

and you say its the IRFU devaluing the league? You can't really mean that.

Remember its an investment, IRFU put money into the Provinces to make them better businesses and in return they follow the NIQ player limits, and provide players for Ireland.

The SRU do the same, yet I don't recall you saying Glasgow bought the title?

Your grievance seams to be that the IRFU are willing to invest into the Provinces yet the WRU aren't willing to invest as much into the regions.
The SRU has stepped up its investment in its two teams, and have now won the title yet no complaints from you - why?

If anything the WRU are the ones devaluing the league, by not investing in there regions.

Munchkin wrote:

The Regions are in a Union run system, genius.

carpet baboon wrote:Griff I do agree with you, but for some posters it's all Ireland's fault and we devalue the whole league, I was just taking the opposite opinion ion from phill because his all consuming  "educating" of usirish was a bit patronising.
All I'm saying is find a way that works,stop looking outward atothers and stop laying blame.
I know the Irish aint perfect but I do t look to blame the English for ignoring salary caps as to why we havnt performed in europe. It's our problem that we have to fix it.
But I also suggest that all the pro12 teams and unionshave to work together in some way to improve what we have such as officiating, ko times etc so we all benefit as a whole,

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

The Regions are in a Union run system, genius.

No, they are not.

The WRU doesn't control the expenditure of any of them. The WRU doesn't have final say on who any of them employ, bar for work permit regulations. The WRU doesn't select the coaches, employ the Chief Execs or have any say in the day to day running of the businesses.

So, thanks for the comment of 'genius' as, right now, you're looking pretty dumb.

Munchkin wrote:
I don't accept that you don't get more bums on seats because it's a cultural thing, although I do accept that club loyalty probably means club supporters are more likely to follow their club than any Region, and that they may even be against the Regions. That is something for WRU and the Regions to solve though, and not something that the IRFU can solve for them. The Provinces being less successful could probably help the Regions become more successful, but only within the context of Pro12. All sides would become less successful within a European context, and Pro12 would be devalued, yet this appears to be what those one or two individuals are calling for, other than the Regions moving to the AP/Championship. A pipe dream at best.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

The Regions are in a Union run system, genius.

No, they are not.

The WRU doesn't control the expenditure of any of them. The WRU doesn't have final say on who any of them employ, bar for work permit regulations. The WRU doesn't select the coaches, employ the Chief Execs or have any say in the day to day running of the businesses.

So, thanks for the comment of 'genius' as, right now, you're looking pretty dumb.

The Regions are in a Union run system. Deny it all you like, but they are most definitely in a Union run system. You live in a bubble.

Munchkin wrote:
You're an idiot. Really, I mean that in every sense of the word.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Griff I do agree with you, but for some posters it's all Ireland's fault and we devalue the whole league, I was just taking the opposite opinion ion from phill because his all consuming  "educating" of usirish was a bit patronising.
All I'm saying is find a way that works,stop looking outward atothers and stop laying blame.
I know the Irish aint perfect but I do t look to blame the English for ignoring salary caps as to why we havnt performed in europe. It's our problem that we have to fix it.
But I also suggest that all the pro12 teams and unionshave to work together in some way to improve what we have such as officiating, ko times etc so we all benefit as a whole,

Oh dear. An admission of trolling.

marty2086 wrote:
Is that not similar to given non answers to certain posters like you admitted to a few days ago?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
You're an idiot. Really, I mean that in every sense of the word.

Wonderful.

Some clown claims conspiracy theory for something that is tangibly a fact yet he thinks somebody is an idiot.

Thanks for the chuckle, Champ.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Is that not similar to given non answers to certain posters like you admitted to a few days ago?

Sorry, you've lost me. Could you link to what you are referring to? Alternatively, what questions have been given 'non answers'?

marty2086 wrote:
It is a conspiracy theory, you claim that the wage bill is hidden which implies an attempt to conceal it. The provinces are not under any obligation to publish it publically, considering you have had access to Leinsters in the past you know that its not hidden

marty2086 wrote:
I could but then again I cant be bothered going back looking forward, I believe it was baboon you replied to with a non answer then when he queried it your replied was along the lines of you thought it was someone else first time around

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
It is a conspiracy theory, you claim that the wage bill is hidden which implies an attempt to conceal it. The provinces are not under any obligation to publish it publically, considering you have had access to Leinsters in the past you know that its not hidden

There is no 'attempt to conceal it'. It is concealed.

I wrote to Audrey Robinson last week. Still awaiting her reply. Any chance you could chase her up for this 'not hidden' information?

Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
You're an idiot. Really, I mean that in every sense of the word.

Wonderful.

Some clown claims conspiracy theory for something that is tangibly a fact yet he thinks somebody is an idiot.

Thanks for the chuckle, Champ.

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:My take on this:  is there absolutely, 100%, no possibility that the difference in attendances between Ireland and Wales could be due to differences in culture and sport participating/viewing behaviour?  I mean, we're different countries after all.  Similar in many ways, but different.  But no-one seems to want to address that and instead we get calls for everyone to fall in line with whoever is doing best (attendances, income, etc) at that time.

Why do we have to have the same attendances levels as the Irish?  It would be fab for the sport and for business, but what is this necessity to match the Irish attendance figures?  All this 'get your sh*t together' and draw in similar crowds to Munster and Leinster, and the myriad reasons why we don't, might just be as simple as Welsh people are less inclined to go to a game than an Irish person.  Does that make us bad people?  In your eyes, perhaps.  But these sort of cultural differences exist.  Church going is probably much higher in Ireland than Wales, and that is probably cultural too.

I haven't done a study on it but who knows, you may find people in Columbia less inclined to go to a football match than Brazilians, the French less inclined to turn out to basketball games than the Greeks, etc., etc.  I get the point that while we're all in a league together we all need big crowds otherwise we're not 'pulling our weight' or 'getting our sh*t together', but while we're 4 separate countries (in the Pro12) I think it's worthwhile acknowledging that we perhaps have 4 separate and distinct social cultures here that may influence our sport watching habits.  Not massively different, but different enough to make an impact.  And to give us a million arguments to fight over!

Just a thought.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Welsh are bad people, Griff. I certainly don't think so, or that any one nation is 'bad people'. It does seem that a couple of posters, one no longer with us, are saying that Irish rugby is bad people, or at least those who run it, and the only real reason for this is our relative success.

I don't accept that you don't get more bums on seats because it's a cultural thing, although I do accept that club loyalty probably means club supporters are more likely to follow their club than any Region, and that they may even be against the Regions. That is something for WRU and the Regions to solve though, and not something that the IRFU can solve for them. The Provinces being less successful could probably help the Regions become more successful, but only within the context of Pro12. All sides would become less successful within a European context, and Pro12 would be devalued, yet this appears to be what those one or two individuals are calling for, other than the Regions moving to the AP/Championship. A pipe dream at best.

marty2086 wrote:
Do you publish your income, tax etc?

Munchkin wrote:
You are making this worse for yourself, Phil, but it's fun watching you froth, and confirm what an idiot you are

Read back fill, if that isn't to much of a challenge for you.....

Here's what I said:

"The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication."

I then went on to clarify that slightly by saying that you base your claim on what you can't see. In other words, you have zero evidence for claiming that the Provinces 'have something to hide', thus making a conspiracy theory.

Are we clear now, or shall I write that in crayon for you.

Thanks for the giggle though. You're great value.

Griff wrote:
My point really was in terms of rugby being your 4th or 5th sport in Ireland while it is first in Wales (national sport doesn't necessarily have to mean most supported though - just look at some of the national sports on Wiki!).  So you're able to get however many more fans at rugby than us, and that's with other sports getting even bigger crowds.  You've (you, as in posters on here generally) insisted that population cannot come into it.  So we have rugby identified as Wales national sport, population is not a factor, yet we can't get anywhere near your 4th/5th choice sport.  So my conclusion is that the Welsh rugby fan is less inclined to go to live games.  The attendances were similar pre-regional rugby too, so I'm not sure that has impacted too much.  So I'm not sure if cultural is the right word, but on a population level looking at your GAA attendances and rugby being way down the ladder for you guys I'd say that sport attendance as a spectator activity is much more common/prevalent/much more of a social norm in Ireland than it is in Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:
My point really was in terms of rugby being your 4th or 5th sport in Ireland while it is first in Wales (national sport doesn't necessarily have to mean most supported though - just look at some of the national sports on Wiki!).  So you're able to get however many more fans at rugby than us, and that's with other sports getting even bigger crowds.  You've (you, as in posters on here generally) insisted that population cannot come into it.  So we have rugby identified as Wales national sport, population is not a factor, yet we can't get anywhere near your 4th/5th choice sport.  So my conclusion is that the Welsh rugby fan is less inclined to go to live games.  The attendances were similar pre-regional rugby too, so I'm not sure that has impacted too much.  So I'm not sure if cultural is the right word, but on a population level looking at your GAA attendances and rugby being way down the ladder for you guys I'd say that sport attendance as a spectator activity is much more common/prevalent/much more of a social norm in Ireland than it is in Wales.

More people play and watch soccer in Wales than play and watch soccer. Therefore, rugby cannot be Wales' national sport by any rational measure.

carpet baboon wrote:Phill I love the way your still using the money argument.
So a wealthy sugar daddy bankroles you to victory that's hard earned?
A union pays and it's not your own effort?
Money is money is money my friend.
And you say at no risk? The IRFU fund all rugby in Ireland, if they fail all rugby in Ireland is down the pan. If your Bruce Craig's walk away one club fails.
But you won't admit that will you,  
Keep looking to tbePRL friend

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:What gets me about this "debate" about the funding of the irish teams is all pro 12 unions have the same funding sources.  therefore they have very similar amounts of money to play with.

That's completely untrue.

Griff wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:My take on this:  is there absolutely, 100%, no possibility that the difference in attendances between Ireland and Wales could be due to differences in culture and sport participating/viewing behaviour?  I mean, we're different countries after all.  Similar in many ways, but different.  But no-one seems to want to address that and instead we get calls for everyone to fall in line with whoever is doing best (attendances, income, etc) at that time.

Why do we have to have the same attendances levels as the Irish?  It would be fab for the sport and for business, but what is this necessity to match the Irish attendance figures?  All this 'get your sh*t together' and draw in similar crowds to Munster and Leinster, and the myriad reasons why we don't, might just be as simple as Welsh people are less inclined to go to a game than an Irish person.  Does that make us bad people?  In your eyes, perhaps.  But these sort of cultural differences exist.  Church going is probably much higher in Ireland than Wales, and that is probably cultural too.

I haven't done a study on it but who knows, you may find people in Columbia less inclined to go to a football match than Brazilians, the French less inclined to turn out to basketball games than the Greeks, etc., etc.  I get the point that while we're all in a league together we all need big crowds otherwise we're not 'pulling our weight' or 'getting our sh*t together', but while we're 4 separate countries (in the Pro12) I think it's worthwhile acknowledging that we perhaps have 4 separate and distinct social cultures here that may influence our sport watching habits.  Not massively different, but different enough to make an impact.  And to give us a million arguments to fight over!

Just a thought.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Welsh are bad people, Griff. I certainly don't think so, or that any one nation is 'bad people'. It does seem that a couple of posters, one no longer with us, are saying that Irish rugby is bad people, or at least those who run it, and the only real reason for this is our relative success.

I don't accept that you don't get more bums on seats because it's a cultural thing, although I do accept that club loyalty probably means club supporters are more likely to follow their club than any Region, and that they may even be against the Regions. That is something for WRU and the Regions to solve though, and not something that the IRFU can solve for them. The Provinces being less successful could probably help the Regions become more successful, but only within the context of Pro12. All sides would become less successful within a European context, and Pro12 would be devalued, yet this appears to be what those one or two individuals are calling for, other than the Regions moving to the AP/Championship. A pipe dream at best.

My point really was in terms of rugby being your 4th or 5th sport in Ireland while it is first in Wales (national sport doesn't necessarily have to mean most supported though - just look at some of the national sports on Wiki!).  So you're able to get however many more fans at rugby than us, and that's with other sports getting even bigger crowds.  You've (you, as in posters on here generally) insisted that population cannot come into it.  So we have rugby identified as Wales national sport, population is not a factor, yet we can't get anywhere near your 4th/5th choice sport.  So my conclusion is that the Welsh rugby fan is less inclined to go to live games.  The attendances were similar pre-regional rugby too, so I'm not sure that has impacted too much.  So I'm not sure if cultural is the right word, but on a population level looking at your GAA attendances and rugby being way down the ladder for you guys I'd say that sport attendance as a spectator activity is much more common/prevalent/much more of a social norm in Ireland than it is in Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Do you publish your income, tax etc?

Nobody is interested in the earnings of individuals, marty. You need to read up on this kind of thing because, like your favourite Ulster Rugby ltd, small businesses are exempt from publishing full accounts.

Big businesses like the four branches of the IRFU wouldn't be exempt.

Can you understand the difference now?

TJ wrote:
Nope - its absolutely true.  The 4 unions get money from  pro 12 TV deals, 6 N participation, Euro cup,  sponsorship and gates.  These revenue streams are the same for every union.  They have very similar amounts of money - small differences in that some have more gates and different local sponsorship deals but they all get the same from the 6N european cup and Pro 12 sponsorship.  There is no inbuilt advantage to the Irish unions.  SRU have a small advantage as they only have two teams to fund but Ireland and Wales have exactly the same revenue streams

go on - explain why the WRU have a lower income than the IRU - you wont because they don't ( bar local sponsorship ad gates which are  tiny part of the revenue and where I would expect wales to have the advantage).  Wales also have an advantage in that the clubs owners can put money in if they want and can run deficits whereas the Irish cannot

So go on - explain where all the extra IRU cash comes from

marty2086 wrote:

So because you are interested they should publish them?

Maybe you should read up on this as there are numerous exemptions under both British and Irish law for publishing accounts and being a membership organisation or club are among them are they not?

Also what you class as a big business may not actually be big business and if your claims that the money goes to the IRFU would the branch not lack the turnover to be a big business?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
You are making this worse for yourself, Phil, but it's fun watching you froth, and confirm what an idiot you are

Read back fill, if that isn't to much of a challenge for you.....

Here's what I said:

"The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication."

I then went on to clarify that slightly by saying that you base your claim on what you can't see. In other words, you have zero evidence for claiming that the Provinces 'have something to hide', thus making a conspiracy theory.

Are we clear now, or shall I write that in crayon for you.

Thanks for the giggle though. You're great value.

Erm, they are hiding something - their wage bill. So, yes, they have something to hide. It's not a conspiracy theory to note that they don't publish their wage bill. It's a fact that they don't.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:
My point really was in terms of rugby being your 4th or 5th sport in Ireland while it is first in Wales (national sport doesn't necessarily have to mean most supported though - just look at some of the national sports on Wiki!).  So you're able to get however many more fans at rugby than us, and that's with other sports getting even bigger crowds.  You've (you, as in posters on here generally) insisted that population cannot come into it.  So we have rugby identified as Wales national sport, population is not a factor, yet we can't get anywhere near your 4th/5th choice sport.  So my conclusion is that the Welsh rugby fan is less inclined to go to live games.  The attendances were similar pre-regional rugby too, so I'm not sure that has impacted too much.  So I'm not sure if cultural is the right word, but on a population level looking at your GAA attendances and rugby being way down the ladder for you guys I'd say that sport attendance as a spectator activity is much more common/prevalent/much more of a social norm in Ireland than it is in Wales.

More people play and watch soccer in Wales than play and watch rugby. Therefore, rugby cannot be Wales' national sport by any rational measure.

Munchkin wrote:

This is just you trying desperately to worm your way out of another argument you have just lost, again.

Now you're saying that only thing hidden is the wage bill, and so you agree with me that the Provinces have nothing to hide, even though they don't publish the wage bill? Is that what you're saying, Phil?

Also, genuine question, do the Regions publish their players wages? If so, would you at least give me a link?

TJ wrote:So thats clear then - WRU actually have a bigger income than the IRU.  As I said.  So they do have similar funds to use as they see fit.  

Griff wrote:
Because 'national sport' isn't a measure of quantity.  It's more an identity thing.  Numbers participating is irrelevant.

Artful_Dodger wrote:You know Phil, if half as much effort and endeavour went into improving Welsh rugby as went into to scrutiny of Ireland's setup you Welsh fans of your ilk could really be onto a winner.

In all these meanderings I really am struggling to see the broader point that you are making.  How is everything you claim you are identifying within the Irish setup going to translate into better fortunes for Wales?  Is it just a case of you pointing out that Ireland have a better setup and therefore the relative successes of the two nations can't be compared?  I think its fairly well known at this stage the Irish setup is vastly superior at regional/provincial level.  So again, I can't really see the overall point you are trying to articulate.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So because you are interested they should publish them?

Maybe you should read up on this as there are numerous exemptions under both British and Irish law for publishing accounts and being a membership organisation or club are among them are they not?

Also what you class as a big business may not actually be big business and if your claims that the money goes to the IRFU would the branch not lack the turnover to be a big business?

I think that many folk would be interested in just how much the four branches spend on salaries, not just me.

I seem to be having some advice from you on publishing accounts, yet weren't you the chap who claimed that Ulster Rugby ltd was the company running the Ulster branch of the IRFU?

You're right in pointing out that the branches would fall below the £6.5m sales threshold in the UK, yes. And therein lies the issue.

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:So thats clear then - WRU actually have a bigger income than the IRU.  As I said.  So they do have similar funds to use as they see fit.  

Only those who don't understand mortgages, fixed costs or bank covenants could make such a claim.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:
Because 'national sport' isn't a measure of quantity.  It's more an identity thing.  Numbers participating is irrelevant.

Right, interesting. Non-sensical to me, but there we go.

At least we can all agree that by a measure of spectating or playing, rugby is not the most popular sport in Wales.

TJ wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:So thats clear then - WRU actually have a bigger income than the IRU.  As I said.  So they do have similar funds to use as they see fit.  

Only those who don't understand mortgages, fixed costs or bank covenants could make such a claim.

Nonsense - INCOME is the same.  ( apart from the welsh have the advantage of having owners of the clubs that can run a deficit and put in money plus greater sponsership opportunities)

What the unions spend the money on is up to them.  BUT THEY HAVE SIMILAR AMOUNTS TO SPEND ie its a levelish playing field tilted in the welsh favour slightly

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

This is just you trying desperately to worm your way out of another argument you have just lost, again.

Now you're saying that only thing hidden is the wage bill, and so you agree with me that the Provinces have nothing to hide, even though they don't publish the wage bill? Is that what you're saying, Phil?

Also, genuine question, do the Regions publish their players wages? If so, would you at least give me a link?

What an odd tactic to 'worm' my way out of an argument: repeating my point and being consistent.

You seem to be conflating issues here, badly. The branches, in my opinion, should publish their accounts. By not publishing their accounts, they are hiding them. Your conflation seems to stem from some possible issue within those accounts, but that's a leap of logic nobody can take as the accounts are unknown.

All PRW teams publish annual accounts which show the salaries of the entire organisation. This is what the branches should do, in my opinion.

Let's hope that's cleared things up for you.

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:So thats clear then - WRU actually have a bigger income than the IRU.  As I said.  So they do have similar funds to use as they see fit.  

Only those who don't understand mortgages, fixed costs or bank covenants could make such a claim.

Nonsense - INCOME is the same.  ( apart from the welsh have the advantage of having owners of the clubs that can run a deficit and put in money plus greater sponsership opportunities)

What the unions spend the money on is up to them.  BUT THEY HAVE SIMILAR AMOUNTS TO SPEND ie its a levelish playing field tilted in the welsh favour slightly

IF the WRU gave the regions more than the IRFU gave the provinces then yes you'd be bang on the money.  However, I do not believe that they do so the playing field is therefore tilted firmly back in the Irish direction.  Having it and spending/investing it are very different!