Qualification for Europe

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

marty2086 wrote:
I and many others would be interested in knowing Jennifer Lawrences phone number but I doubt that's a legal standard in getting it published, the wish does not equal the act

On your second line I see no point being made

As for your final point, I never said they fell below it I was pointing out the contradiction in your arguments. You say that they fall below the standards, yet even though you believe that to be true you still claim that's an actual attempt to conceal information when your other argument would mean that theres merely no requirement to reveal it.

Point being made was that you're in no position to hand out advice on Company Law.

Why are you being as dumb as the other chap with his 'attempt to conceal information' line? It's not working for him, either.

I know full well that there is no legal requirement on each branch to publish their accounts. My point is that a transparent league structure, whereby no team is Union owned, would see all publish their accounts. Then you'd have a large step to it being a proper league.

And you lot would be able to finally grasp how the IRFU bought its HECs.

TJ wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:So thats clear then - WRU actually have a bigger income than the IRU.  As I said.  So they do have similar funds to use as they see fit.  

Only those who don't understand mortgages, fixed costs or bank covenants could make such a claim.

Nonsense - INCOME is the same.  ( apart from the welsh have the advantage of having owners of the clubs that can run a deficit and put in money plus greater sponsership opportunities)

What the unions spend the money on is up to them.  BUT THEY HAVE SIMILAR AMOUNTS TO SPEND ie its a levelish playing field tilted in the welsh favour slightly

Ok, so you don't understand mortgages, fixed costs or bank covenants. Rightio.

So Phil tell me. What's your plan for welsh rugby? Or what do you want to see welsh rugby do?

Munchkin wrote:
You're still trying to worm your way out.

So now you're saying that the Provinces have nothing to hide by not revealing the wages of players. So why on earth do you moan so much about the Provinces not revealing the players wages.... unless of course you do actually believe they do have something to hide. Are you being dishonest?

Show me the evidence that the Regions publish player wages.

How am I trying to 'worm' my way out when I am reporting the same point?

The salaries of the branches should, in my opinion, be transparent as they'd be part of their published accounts. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I'll break it down into baby speak: the four branches should publish their accounts to show income and expenditure, to show if they make a profit or loss, to show what they spend on salaries FOR ALL EMPLOYEES, to see if their success is at their own risk or from their own efforts.

Is it now sinking in? They should do EXACTLY what the pro teams of Wales and England do.

And, for the second time, PRW teams publish accounts that show their TOTAL salary bill FOR ALL EMPLOYEES. As a bloody total. No individual salaries are detailed other than Directors who earn over the legal threshold for noting them.

Now, if any of the above is too confusing you (and let's hope it isn't as it's all basic stuff) please let me know.

TJ wrote:The WRU have the abulity to fund the regions as well if not better

Hey, TJ, do me a favour, will you? Write to Barclays and let them know you've renegotiated the covenants on their behalf,

Thanks in advance.

carpet baboon wrote:So Phil tell me. What's your plan for welsh rugby? Or what do you want to see welsh rugby do?

The only hope for long term professional rugby in Wales is to work with BT Sport to deliver something of a British, or British & Irish, competition to generate the income required to compete with the French clubs. The English will require more money in order to do so.

The Sky backing of London Welsh and London Scottish to play in the PrO'12 may be the first stepping stone to that.

No - you simply want to blame anyone but the welsh for the place the welsh teams find themselves. " its a conspiracy" "its not fair" bleat bleat bleat. Get your own house in order. You have huge advantages over the others but instead of using them retreat into a victim mentality.

The Welsh have more money to spend, the ability to deficit finance the regions, far greater TV and sponsership potential and the same or greater income from the major sources - but somehow thats not enough. Welsh are born to rule the rugby world and if they are not it must be because someone else is cheating.

There is never going to be a british league in any shape or form - you simply need to get over this fantasy

Griff wrote:

I don't want to labour the point but on a similar note, I read somewhere a while back that soccer is the biggest participation sport in NZ but of course rugby is the nation sport and the one which relates closely to its identity, etc.  Like the quote said, soccer is the most played sport in nearly all countries but not the national sport necessarily.

http://www.sportnz.org.nz/assets/uploads/attachments/managing-sport/research/sport-and-active-recreation-in-the-lives-of-new-zealand-adults.pdf

Page 25, if you're interested

TJ wrote:No - you simply want to blame anyone but the welsh for the place the welsh teams find themselves.  " its a conspiracy"  "its not fair" bleat bleat bleat.  Get your own house in order.   You have huge advantages over the others but instead of using them retreat into a victim mentality.  

The Welsh have more money to spend, the ability to deficit finance the regions, far greater TV and sponsership potential and the same or greater income from the major sources - but somehow thats not enough.  Welsh are born to rule the rugby world and if they are not it must be because someone else is cheating.  

Erm, nobody is claiming either a 'its a conspiracy' or 'its not fair' point. Nice try, though.

Wales has no advantages when competing with a £70m clandestine organisation that is grossly overpaid by the Six Nations, TJ.

Rugby in South Wales is played not in an area where there is more money to spend, the TV deals are shared, the sponsorship potential of South Wales to compare to the whole of Northern Ireland or Dublin is minimal. You're living in cloud cuckoo land and arguing against economic fact.

TJ wrote:There is never going to be a british league in any shape or form - you simply need to get over this fantasy

Maybe you can use that crystal ball when you write to Barclays. Give them some investment advice to offset the losses you've incurred for them when renegotiating the covenants.

Phill - its exactly what you are doing - bleating that its unfair on the welsh - and how for goodness sake are the Irish overpaid by the 6N?

Its a weird fantasy world that y0u live in where having more money = being at a disadvantage

TJ wrote:Phill - its exactly what you are doing - bleating that its unfair on the welsh - and how for goodness sake are the Irish overpaid by the 6N?  

Its a weird fantasy world that y0u live in where having more money = being at a disadvantage

http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/content/ireland/IRFU_Annual_Report_2014_15.pdf

Page 9, TJ.

Go educate yourself.

You said above that the WRU have a bigger income than the IRU. Simple fact.

Ah right - so equal shares is not fair - is that the point you are trying to make? Simply ridiculous

TJ wrote:You said above that the WRU have a bigger income than the IRU.   Simple fact.

Have you educated yourself on the Six Nations money now, TJ?

If so, we can hopefully move on to the next lesson in how income does not equal disposable income. If you'd like to apply it to something closer to home, Munster owe c.€8m to the rest of the game in Ireland. They are paying it back much slower than anticipated, allowing Munster an advantage over the other professional teams that they, in effect, borrowed money from.

Nice, if you can gerrymander it.

TJ wrote:Ah right - so equal shares is not fair - is that the point you are trying to make?  Simply ridiculous

It is ridiculous to take out 6 times more than you put in, yes.

It's almost like a bail out.

PhilBB wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

So the IRFU invest in the Provinces, so they can be more viable businesses, the provinces manage to use this to increase attendance, increase sponsorship, increase marketing and build robust businesses and competitive sides.

and you say its the IRFU devaluing the league? You can't really mean that.

Remember its an investment, IRFU put money into the Provinces to make them better businesses and in return they follow the NIQ player limits, and provide players for Ireland.

The SRU do the same, yet I don't recall you saying Glasgow bought the title?

Your grievance seams to be that the IRFU are willing to invest into the Provinces yet the WRU aren't willing to invest as much into the regions.
The SRU has stepped up its investment in its two teams, and have now won the title yet no complaints from you - why?

If anything the WRU are the ones devaluing the league, by not investing in there regions.

Of course Glasgow bought the title but I'm yet to converse with a Scottish rugby supporter on here.

Your final sentence is undoubtedly fair but the issue of devaluing the league isn't solely the spend, as has been explained countless times already.

So according to you Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow all bought the title, and the only ones to win it fairly are Ospreys and Scarlets?

Looks like a chip on your should for everyone not Welsh.

Ospreys were pretty big spending with the galacticos back then too, so maybe its just the Scarlets that won it fairly?

Kingshu wrote:
So according to you Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow all bought the title, and the only ones to win it fairly are Ospreys and Scarlets?

Looks like a chip on your should for everyone not Welsh.

Ospreys were pretty big spending with the galacticos back then too, so maybe its just the Scarlets that won it fairly?

No.

According to me, the IRFU and SRU bought the title whilst the Os and Turks had to win it off their own backs.

Nothing to do with a chip on a shoulder, everything to do with fact. Remember, I say good on the SRU and IRFU for buying those titles.

How much do you think the Ospreys were spending when they won the titles? It's easy to find out, you see.

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:You said above that the WRU have a bigger income than the IRU.   Simple fact.

Have you educated yourself on the Six Nations money now, TJ?

If so, we can hopefully move on to the next lesson in how income does not equal disposable income. If you'd like to apply it to something closer to home, Munster owe c.€8m to the rest of the game in Ireland. They are paying it back much slower than anticipated, allowing Munster an advantage over the other professional teams that they, in effect, borrowed money from.

Nice, if you can gerrymander it.

So your saying Munster owning money to the IRFU is disadvantaging Ulster, Leinster and Connacht and this is damaging the League and Welsh rugby?

Ulster, Leinster and Connacht seam to be doing well in the league, can't see how it effects the regions?

And the SRU took the decision to pay off their debts quickly - this cost them in the short term but now the debt is down we have more money to play with

Its now the irish fault that the WRU took on huge debt?

I have to say, I haven't seen Phil blame anyone for anything. The claim is often made on here that the Welsh regions have underachieved because they receive the same as the provinces but have not achieved as much with that same level of funding. Phil, from my reading, seems to just be pointing out that this is untrue. The regions are not funded to the same tune. Where is this blame thing coming in? So many accusations of blame on this site. I was once accused of blaming the Irish for our low attendances when I was pointing out what social/economic factors might cause differences! Ridiculous! The 'blame' thing seems to be like the race card. Pull it out to try to end a argument. Not cool.

TJ wrote:And the SRU took the decision to pay off their debts quickly - this cost them in the short term but now the debt is down we have more money to play with

Its now the irish fault that the WRU took on huge debt?

This is what in talking about.

Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats. Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know. The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it? Look to the WRU and the regions for why don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it. around 5 million IIRC.

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

The WRU has more money. The regions do not. They're different organisations. Different businesses. Why can't you see that?

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Where has anyone said its their fault? It's using their better funding of their teams to pinpoint a reason for our own relative lack of success and progress.

Griff - the WRU have MORE money. Phill has repeatedly called other cheats

I'll say it again - Glasgow won with one of the lowest playing budgets Put your own house in order, stop claiming that you are disadvantaged when you are not. The WRU has MORE money that the IRU

This British league you speak off whos in it and who gets left out?

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Where has anyone said its their fault? It's using their better funding of their teams to pinpoint a reason for our own relative lack of success and progress.

Griff he claims us being in the league devalues it.
Devalues the league.
He says any success we have had is not our own doing but the IRFUs, thus belittling any of our progress, while hideing behind his clubs failure.
We devalue the league by being good.
He calls it gerrymandering
We call it hard work
He calls it bad for competition
We call it working to maximise what we have.

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Where has anyone said its their fault? It's using their better funding of their teams to pinpoint a reason for our own relative lack of success and progress.

When he's saying the SRU and IRFU bought the titles.

TJ wrote:Griff - the WRU have MORE money.  Phill has repeatedly called other cheats

I'll say it again - Glasgow won with one of the lowest playing budgets  Put your own house in order, stop claiming that you are disadvantaged when you are not.  The WRU has MORE money that the IRU

Not wanting to get into the whole finger pointing stuff. Just curiosity, do you have anything to back up the Glasgow claim? Because I've been lead to believe the regions run the lowest wage bills in the pro12, with the Dragons and Scarlets being the bottom two. I can't back that up mind, so I'm open to being proven wrong.

TJ wrote:Griff - the WRU have MORE money.  Phill has repeatedly called other cheats

I'll say it again - Glasgow won with one of the lowest playing budgets  Put your own house in order, stop claiming that you are disadvantaged when you are not.  The WRU has MORE money that the IRU

.

And I'll say it again: the WRU has more, but what has that got to do with the regions? It's only relevant to the debate if the WRU gives the regions more of that money. If it withholds or under funds the regions incomparison to the other unions then those clubs are in a worse position. So we have to look at the finances of all involved. Why or how is that blame?

Look, if two of my friends build bigger and better houses than me and people started asking why then we might look at each of our incomes and find that my two friends' incomes were higher and that's why they have afforded bigger and better houses. That wouldn't be me blaming them for having a better house. That would be identifying a reason. That's all Phil's trying to do here as far as I can see, by looking at accounts. You identify disparities and then you can address them. Otherwise, what do you go on? Research needs to be done to move forward.

Kingshu wrote:

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Where has anyone said its their fault? It's using their better funding of their teams to pinpoint a reason for our own relative lack of success and progress.

When he's saying the SRU and IRFU bought the titles.

Again, how is saying someone bought a title an accusation of blame? I think Phil would be happy if the WRU bought a region a title. The wording could be a bit 'nicer' I suppose,, but the sentiment is the same: better funded regions might result in titles like our Irish and Scottish pro12 partners.

Griff wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Where has anyone said its their fault? It's using their better funding of their teams to pinpoint a reason for our own relative lack of success and progress.

When he's saying the SRU and IRFU bought the titles.

Again, how is saying someone bought a title an accusation of blame? I think Phil would be happy if the WRU bought a region a title. The wording could be a bit 'nicer' I suppose,, but the sentiment is the same: better funded regions might result in titles like our Irish and Scottish pro12 partners.

Actually he has been explicitly stated if the union backed a region to a win it would be devalued

Well, I don't agree with him on that point.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:So Phil tell me. What's your plan for welsh rugby? Or what do you want to see welsh rugby do?

The only hope for long term professional rugby in Wales is to work with BT Sport to deliver something of a British, or British & Irish, competition to generate the income required to compete with the French clubs. The English will require more money in order to do so.

The Sky backing of London Welsh and London Scottish to play in the PrO'12 may be the first stepping stone to that.

Your assertion is that Irish provinces devalue the current league because they are IRFU owned. Therefore they would similarly devalue any other league unless the way Irish rugby is administered is completely changed. That isn't going to happen so why would you want an Irish element that 'devalues' the league?

With regard to a British League of say England Scotland and Wales. Why would BT want it?

PhilBB wrote:Rugby in South Wales is played not in an area where there is more money to spend, the TV deals are shared, the sponsorship potential of South Wales to compare to the whole of Northern Ireland or Dublin is minimal. You're living in cloud cuckoo land and arguing against economic fact.

BT have already bought access to the vast majority of subscribers with their AP deal so why on earth would they or anyone else spend roughly double what they spend now to reach a market that has minimal "sponsorship potential"?

Perhaps the new League could be sited in cloud cuckoo land where it would maximise it's chance of success?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TJ wrote:Griff - the WRU have MORE money.  Phill has repeatedly called other cheats

I'll say it again - Glasgow won with one of the lowest playing budgets  Put your own house in order, stop claiming that you are disadvantaged when you are not.  The WRU has MORE money that the IRU

Not wanting to get into the whole finger pointing stuff.  Just curiosity, do you have anything to back up the Glasgow claim?  Because I've been lead to believe the regions run the lowest wage bills in the pro12, with the Dragons and Scarlets being the bottom two.  I can't back that up mind, so I'm open to being proven wrong.

NO - just internet facts :-)

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

The WRU has more money. The regions do not. They're different organisations. Different businesses. Why can't you see that?

The fact the WRU does not fund the regions is not the fault of the IRU / SRU When Phill complains its not a level playing field he is looking in the wrong direction. Its the WRU he needs to be looking to not the IRU / SRU - and anyway I don't think the disparity in spending is that much.

TJ wrote:

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

The WRU has more money. The regions do not. They're different organisations. Different businesses. Why can't you see that?

The fact the WRU does not fund the regions is not the fault of the IRU / SRU  When Phill complains its not a level playing field he is looking in the wrong direction.  Its the WRU he needs to be looking to not the IRU / SRU - and anyway I don't think the disparity in spending is that much.

Based on what? At least some people are try to access accounts to inform their points. You seem to be guessing.

TJ wrote:
NO - just internet facts :-)  

Good enough for me

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

The WRU has more money. The regions do not. They're different organisations. Different businesses. Why can't you see that?

The fact the WRU does not fund the regions is not the fault of the IRU / SRU  When Phill complains its not a level playing field he is looking in the wrong direction.  Its the WRU he needs to be looking to not the IRU / SRU - and anyway I don't think the disparity in spending is that much.

Based on what? At least some people are try to access accounts to inform their points. You seem to be guessing.

And you seem to be making assumptions, trying to find information doesn't make you informed

Griff wrote:
Based on what? At least some people are try to access accounts to inform their points. You seem to be guessing.

Based on what I have heard and what I know. Its very hard to compare. The scots teams for example - all senior players are paid by one pot by the teams. Others have a mix with some players on central contracts or other ways of paying. Also where do the youth players, academy players and project players get paid from - all different in the different nations. Add to this the fact the figures are often opaque and its hard to tell who is better funded but the ease with which clubs can buy the best scots away says to me we cannot match on salaries.

The scots teams used to be the poor relations down with the italians - but now the SRU have paid of debt I would think they are better off than they were and will have playing budgets around the average.

Its all a bit smoke and mirrors and to me the critical things are
1) All unions have the same funding streams so income to the unions will be similar
2) Its not always the richest teams that do well
3) we have what we have. Make do and sign well. DTH for example came from a really small team and would not be on huge amounts when he arrived. Matowalo it was his first pro contract. Picking good players on their way up can be much better value than established internationals

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Leinster don't own the Rds, it wasn't up to the branch or the IRFU to upgrade it... How many times does that need to be explained?

Until the annual rent Leinster pay is in the public domain.

Of course, I may have missed it so please let me know the figure.

Go on the Leinster forum and ask because I couldn't give a fiddlers what they pay. The Royal Dublin society alone finally decided to upgrade an almost century old stand and diabolical toilet facilities that was an embarrassment to an establishment that holds multiple different sporting and social events throughout the year. It's only one stand that is being upgraded and half of it is being funded by a stadium sponsor anyway.

Griff wrote:Well, I don't agree with him on that point.

I also agree with Phil on some but not all points. Yet I keep reading it's THE WELSH that hate the Pro12 and blame the IRFU, etc. Surely that's Phil (perhaps a couple others, certainly on twitter there are) and not the Welsh? I don't hate the Pro12 and actually believe we should be adopting a model that continues to move towards the Irish one. The issue is that the WRU are not trusted, yet.

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Just picking up on your £5 million playing budget. The region's are still operating on a salary cap of £3.5m. They announced a few months ago that the cap would rise to £4.5m for next season, and I remember a quote from the Dragons saying something along of the lines of "that's nice, but we'll get nowhere near the cap". So if Glasgow are operating on 30% more salary budget currently (and last year) then there's a disparity. And before you jump on my and start blowing up in a rage I am in no way blaming the Scottish for anything here. I'm merely pointing out that if this difference is true then perhaps that's why our regions have fallen further behind and Glasgow have had an upturn in fortunes, results and silverware wise. Not blame. Not accusations. Just a difference. That then allows us to pinpoint what our regions and unions could/should be doing to address it. But we need to find these things out (you've been good enough to supply the figure on this occasion). All businesses do their research on competitors.

Hopefully next season those regions with more available salary budget up to £4.5m (I doubt they will all manage it) might do better in attracting players like Glasgow have and keeping hold of current stars, and could/should become more competitive. Maybe. Lots of other variables there too.

its only from memory so could be wrong.  also in the 3.5 million are the central contracts included?  Academy players? etc Thats part of the problem - its not comparing like with like

- I think the 5 million is the total staff budget not just the players - lets have a google and see if I can find anything. Glasgow have lost a lot of good players this season and certainly cannot recruit stars

I found a figure of 4.2 million for last year - but as I said its unclear how that compares as we don't know what that pays for I think thats the total budget for staff not just players but am not at all sure

Nothing in the annual report allows us to find out for sure

Article from 2014 in the herald stating they had one of the lowest budgets - I know it has gone up since then. another in the Guardian stating in 2014 Glasgow had the 3rd lowest budget in the heinekin cup

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Phill is clearly stating that the Welsh regions are disadvantaged and effectively calling the others cheats.  Why its the SRU and the IRUs fault that the WRU cannot organise a boozeup in a brewery I do not know.  The Welsh have more money but achieve less with it?  Look to the WRU and the regions for why  don't blame others as he is doing

And IIRC Glasgow have one of the lowest playing budgets in the Pro 12 but still won it.  around 5 million IIRC.

Just picking up on your £5 million playing budget. The region's are still operating on a salary cap of £3.5m. They announced a few months ago that the cap would rise to £4.5m for next season, and I remember a quote from the Dragons saying something along of the lines of "that's nice, but we'll get nowhere near the cap". So if Glasgow are operating on 30% more salary budget currently (and last year) then there's a disparity. And before you jump on my and start blowing up in a rage I am in no way blaming the Scottish for anything here. I'm merely pointing out that if this difference is true then perhaps that's why our regions have fallen further behind and Glasgow have had an upturn in fortunes, results and silverware wise. Not blame. Not accusations. Just a difference. That then allows us to pinpoint what our regions and unions could/should be doing to address it. But we need to find these things out (you've been good enough to supply the figure on this occasion). All businesses do their research on competitors.

Hopefully next season those regions with more available salary budget up to £4.5m (I doubt they will all manage it) might do better in attracting players like Glasgow have and keeping hold of current stars, and could/should become more competitive. Maybe. Lots of other variables there too.

Last year I had a discussion with someone on the Scarlets forum about the amounts the IRFU and WRU pay the Provinces and Regions. I looked at the accounts of both and the difference was very slight. Not much in it at all. In fact the Regions received more competition monies than the Provinces.
It might be that the Provinces can themselves fund each of their Provinces more effectively than the supposedly independent Regions, using finance raised by themselves, and through local businesses, and that would certainly be true of Ulster, and why Ulster can invest in the world class talent that we have just signed.
The claim that it is the IRFU buying in this talent is nonsense, from the usual hysterical sources, as the Provinces do generate finance themselves. In fact it is a main aim of IRFU that each Province is self sustaining.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:Well, I don't agree with him on that point.

I also agree with Phil on some but not all points. Yet I keep reading it's THE WELSH that hate the Pro12 and blame the IRFU, etc. Surely that's Phil (perhaps a couple others, certainly on twitter there are) and not the Welsh? I don't hate the Pro12 and actually believe we should be adopting a model that continues to move towards the Irish one. The issue is that the WRU are not trusted, yet.

Personally, I never say it's 'the Welsh' but, looking at some comments on a few Welsh sites, it's not surprising that some may apply the broad brush, especially if they take a peak at the likes of Gwlad. There is some very good posters on Gwlad, but there are a few @rses, and one or two on other Regions supporters sites.

I have heard 'the Irish' being used many times by certain Welsh posters, and I have read many anti-Irish comments, on one site in particular.