Qualification for Europe

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

carpet baboon wrote:
Why would I be bitter? You project a lot phill

I'm remembering your Bruce Craig comment. That's why you'd be bitter. Or are.

Thanks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So there isn't any confirmation which is as expectd.

At this point in time.

What as I disagree with you about who should run international rugby that makes me bitter?
Your a funny one phill

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
BT have already bought access to the vast majority of subscribers with their AP deal so why on earth would they or anyone else spend roughly double what they spend now to reach a market that has minimal "sponsorship potential"?

Perhaps the new League could be sited in cloud cuckoo land where it would maximise it's chance of success?

Confirmed again this weekend that BT Sport are pushing for this. The plan is for a conference set up with the 6N pushed to the end of the season.

Guess which Union(s) is holding it up?

It is truly wonderful the shenanigans that goes on in Cloud Cuckoo Land, what with flying in the face of logic and operating an Undecimal system where 17 + 7 = 23 - thanks for sharing.

I'm not entirely sure how BT think they can push for a formation of a new league or where they think they can get the money from. Goes back to old argument Chunky used to bring up. Could never explain why BT would want to pay the massive amount of money needed, if the English would get more money or how the power struggle would play out.

The Great Aukster wrote:

It is truly wonderful the shenanigans that goes on in Cloud Cuckoo Land, what with flying in the face of logic and operating an Undecimal system where 17 + 7 = 23 - thanks for sharing.

Um, 17+7=23 was your mate Marty's mistake.

Whoops.

Why is it illogical to progress European club rugby to a conference system that delivers better value for all, underpinned by a tremendous domestic TV contract, that allows the club game to grow and returns International rugby to being special, rather than saturated, again?

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Have exactly have blazzers ruined Irish rugby compared to the Welsh? What have we had to "put up with"? Winning trophies?

Oh, you're right there. Our Chief Blazer properly tried to ruin Welsh rugby. Thankfully, he failed.

Meanwhile, your team is held back from its full potential whilst IRFU blazers block progress, as they tried to do (and thankfully failed) with EPRC

The IRFU are holding the provinces back but it has nothing to do with the EPRC. The ERC never had to give away free tickets for a final.

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

It is truly wonderful the shenanigans that goes on in Cloud Cuckoo Land, what with flying in the face of logic and operating an Undecimal system where 17 + 7 = 23 - thanks for sharing.

Um, 17+7=23 was your mate Marty's mistake.

Whoops.

Why is it illogical to progress European club rugby to a conference system that delivers better value for all, underpinned by a tremendous domestic TV contract, that allows the club game to grow and returns International rugby to being special, rather than saturated, again?

Looks like someone read the brochure released by BT (PRL)

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not entirely sure how BT think they can push for a formation of a new league or where they think they can get the money from. Goes back to old argument Chunky used to bring up. Could never explain why BT would want to pay the massive amount of money needed, if the English would get more money or how the power struggle would play out.

BT Sport are incredibly cash rich. The idea that they'd struggle to get the money to pay for pro rugby on this scale is ludicrous.

Why would BT sport want to do this? To progress their TV channel, to be able to sell top level advertising because of rugby's ABC1 viewing market and to corner the broadband market.

For it to work, all parties would need to get more money.

As for the power struggle, there really isn't one. We have the IRFU holding on to excuses of 'existing contracts being in place' as their bargaining position. In truth, the only way that could play out is for the contracts to be run down or paid off.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
The IRFU are holding the provinces back but it has nothing to do with the EPRC. The ERC never had to give away free tickets for a final.

I'm glad that somebody else finally recognises that the IRFU are holding back professional rugby in Ireland.

Excellent.

carpet baboon wrote:
Looks like someone read the brochure released by BT (PRL)

All makes sense to me plus, of course, I'm yet to read a rational argument against it.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not entirely sure how BT think they can push for a formation of a new league or where they think they can get the money from. Goes back to old argument Chunky used to bring up. Could never explain why BT would want to pay the massive amount of money needed, if the English would get more money or how the power struggle would play out.

BT Sport are incredibly cash rich. The idea that they'd struggle to get the money to pay for pro rugby on this scale is ludicrous.

Why would BT sport want to do this? To progress their TV channel, to be able to sell top level advertising because of rugby's ABC1 viewing market and to corner the broadband market.

For it to work, all parties would need to get more money.

As for the power struggle, there really isn't one. We have the IRFU holding on to excuses of 'existing contracts being in place' as their bargaining position. In truth, the only way that could play out is for the contracts to be run down or paid off.

So your involved in these high level discussions?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not entirely sure how BT think they can push for a formation of a new league or where they think they can get the money from. Goes back to old argument Chunky used to bring up. Could never explain why BT would want to pay the massive amount of money needed, if the English would get more money or how the power struggle would play out.

BT Sport are incredibly cash rich. The idea that they'd struggle to get the money to pay for pro rugby on this scale is ludicrous.

Why would BT sport want to do this? To progress their TV channel, to be able to sell top level advertising because of rugby's ABC1 viewing market and to corner the broadband market.

For it to work, all parties would need to get more money.

As for the power struggle, there really isn't one. We have the IRFU holding on to excuses of 'existing contracts being in place' as their bargaining position. In truth, the only way that could play out is for the contracts to be run down or paid off.

Well the question first is would they need to? Probably not. You'd also have to look at it from an English perspective, they'd want more money than the rest surely reflecting the current make up; I can't see everyone getting along after that.

Next is the power struggle, the PRL rule the roost and can make rules as and when they suit themselves, they wouldn't want a dilution of that so would the rest be happy to dance to English tune? Finally, why would the English want to increase their competition?

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
The IRFU are holding the provinces back but it has nothing to do with the EPRC. The ERC never had to give away free tickets for a final.

I'm glad that somebody else finally recognises that the IRFU are holding back professional rugby in Ireland.

Excellent.

It's for completely different reason than what you think though. The fact you think the EPRC are somehow good for the Pro 12 teams shows how off track you are. The IRFU have not bought well when we comes to NIQ players and have blocked the signings of top internationals because they don't suit team Ireland.

carpet baboon wrote:

So your involved in these high level discussions?

I didn't think that understanding an obvious strategy meant that I'd need to be 'high level'.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Well the question first is would they need to? Probably not. You'd also have to look at it from an English perspective, they'd want more money than the rest surely reflecting the current make up; I can't see everyone getting along after that.

Next is the power struggle, the PRL rule the roost and can make rules as and when they suit themselves, they wouldn't want a dilution of that so would the rest be happy to dance to English tune? Finally, why would the English want to increase their competition?

Need is a very odd word to use. What business wouldn't want to grow by attracting new customers through such an investment? They don't 'need' to do anything. There's no 'need' for there to be a BT Sport.

Frankly, those questions amaze me. What business wouldn't want to grow its income base? We've already seen the model to be used (EPRC) for this venture and that has worked out well for everybody.

Who would run the competition is a great question but I think that you're asking the questions the wrong way around. What you're really asking is 'why would the IRFU cede control over its branches to a club run competition' and the answer to that is 'eventually, they will have to'.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
It's for completely different reason than what you think though. The fact you think the EPRC are somehow good for the Pro 12 teams shows how off track you are. The IRFU have not bought well when we comes to NIQ players and have blocked the signings of top internationals because they don't suit team Ireland.

The EPRC is excellent for all PrO'12 teams. It brings them more income than the blazer run ERC could have done.

The IRFU by retaining ownership over its branches (and by blocking signings, as you've noted) is holding them all back. Too right.

Well BT won't want to pay more than they have to. They're not a charity. The key problems of power and money and whether the English can keep the majority of it is what would need to be solved. can't see anyone wanting that as it's the envious looks towards them that keep silly proposals coming up.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

So your involved in these high level discussions?

I didn't think that understanding an obvious strategy meant that I'd need to be 'high level'.

Ok do you speak for Cardiff blues? Are you voicing there opinion, if not are you basing your opinion on assumptions?

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
It's for completely different reason than what you think though. The fact you think the EPRC are somehow good for the Pro 12 teams shows how off track you are. The IRFU have not bought well when we comes to NIQ players and have blocked the signings of top internationals because they don't suit team Ireland.

The EPRC is excellent for all PrO'12 teams. It brings them more income than the blazer run ERC could have done.

The IRFU by retaining ownership over its branches (and by blocking signings, as you've noted) is holding them all back. Too right.

Show us the evidence they bring in more income... Attendances are down for Munster and Leinster in Europe. The group games have always been a sellout for both but I don't think we have completely sold out a game yet under the EPRC. Also the two finals have been a disaster. 

The IRFU block signings but allows us to keep the Irish internationals, which is far more important.

Oh and there is of course the inevitable drop in money from Europe that BT/whichever broadcaster got it would also have to make up.

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

It is truly wonderful the shenanigans that goes on in Cloud Cuckoo Land, what with flying in the face of logic and operating an Undecimal system where 17 + 7 = 23 - thanks for sharing.

Um, 17+7=23 was your mate Marty's mistake.

Whoops.

Why is it illogical to progress European club rugby to a conference system that delivers better value for all, underpinned by a tremendous domestic TV contract, that allows the club game to grow and returns International rugby to being special, rather than saturated, again?

You believe that the Irish provinces devalue the League, so it is illogical to include them in another one.

You were proposing a British League that has now morphed without any logical transition into a European conference system - so I take it the French are now on board?

You use figures at the slightest opportunity, yet expect to convince others with rhetoric and phrases such as "better value" and "tremendous domestic TV contract" without underpinning this with any numbers.

If they use base 11 in Cloud Cuckoo Land then 17+7=23 makes perfect sense, so it's all a question of reference, and given there seems to be zero reference for the BT claim it can be safely filed under CCL for now.

Don't think this sounds good for the Pro 12...

“
The now former vice president of the NRL deplores the recent reform of the European Cup, which only strengthened the financial power of the English and French championships, at the expense of provinces Welsh, Irish and Scottish. "I can not stand not to enjoy the spring choruses of Munster or Leinster or Cardiff, because the system set up by the English with our liabilities agreement does not allow them to align competitive teams. More money in each as much money in others, this is also known impoverish" critical that leader trained in European negotiations (particularly in 2000 about the return of English clubs ... ) .
”

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well BT won't want to pay more than they have to. They're not a charity. The key problems of power and money and whether the English can keep the majority of it is what would need to be solved. can't see anyone wanting that as it's the envious looks towards them that keep silly proposals coming up.

You seem to have created a narrative about the English wanting a majority.

I think that now is a good time to recognise that the IRFU gets more per entrant into the EPRC than does PRL.

In other words, it seems that you're arguing against a straw man you've just created.

carpet baboon wrote:

Ok do you speak for Cardiff blues? Are you voicing there opinion, if not are you basing your opinion on assumptions?

Nope, I speak for nobody. My opinion is based on what's obvious, what I've been told and what I've read.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Show us the evidence they bring in more income... Attendances are down for Munster and Leinster in Europe. The group games have always been a sellout for both but I don't think we have completely sold out a game yet under the EPRC. Also the two finals have been a disaster. 

The IRFU block signings but allows us to keep the Irish internationals, which is far more important.

I posted it earlier on in the thread.

It's interesting that you're blaming EPRC for Leinster not being able to sell out its own ground.

If Leinster were privately owned, your club would be able to keep whichever players it wanted.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh and there is of course the inevitable drop in money from Europe that BT/whichever broadcaster got it would also have to make up.

Again, another straw man argument you've just created.

Well, well.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Don't think this sounds good for the Pro 12...

“
The now former vice president of the NRL deplores the recent reform of the European Cup, which only strengthened the financial power of the English and French championships, at the expense of provinces Welsh, Irish and Scottish. "I can not stand not to enjoy the spring choruses of Munster or Leinster or Cardiff, because the system set up by the English with our liabilities agreement does not allow them to align competitive teams. More money in each as much money in others, this is also known impoverish" critical that leader trained in European negotiations (particularly in 2000 about the return of English clubs ... ) .
”

Your translator package seems knackered.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
It's for completely different reason than what you think though. The fact you think the EPRC are somehow good for the Pro 12 teams shows how off track you are. The IRFU have not bought well when we comes to NIQ players and have blocked the signings of top internationals because they don't suit team Ireland.

The EPRC is excellent for all PrO'12 teams. It brings them more income than the blazer run ERC could have done.

The IRFU by retaining ownership over its branches (and by blocking signings, as you've noted) is holding them all back. Too right.

It has not. It has resulted in a massive increase in players wages. So it's like them getting £1 extra but needing to spend £2 due to inflation. Not to mention missing out on attendance's, prize money etc.

Why is it? Interest would drop as you'd see the vast majority of matches during the normal season from Europe.

Why do you think English clubs would want less power and allow Wales, ireland and Scotland equal money to them thus increasing competition?

The Great Aukster wrote:

You believe that the Irish provinces devalue the League, so it is illogical to include them in another one.

You were proposing a British League that has now morphed without any logical transition into a European conference system - so I take it the French are now on board?

You use figures at the slightest opportunity, yet expect to convince others with rhetoric and phrases such as "better value" and "tremendous domestic TV contract" without underpinning this with any numbers.

If they use base 11 in Cloud Cuckoo Land then 17+7=23 makes perfect sense, so it's all a question of reference, and given there seems to be zero reference for the BT claim it can be safely filed under CCL for now.

You're conflating my opinion with the ongoing thoughts of broadcasters for what they would want. That's a really weird thing to do.

You're also asking me to produce numbers for a TV contract that isn't on the table, so you're now getting more bizarre.

What's obvious is that none of this will take off unless it is financially viable to its entrants. If some don't want to enter, or play by the entrance rules, then so be it. That's up to them.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Don't think this sounds good for the Pro 12...

“
The now former vice president of the NRL deplores the recent reform of the European Cup, which only strengthened the financial power of the English and French championships, at the expense of provinces Welsh, Irish and Scottish. "I can not stand not to enjoy the spring choruses of Munster or Leinster or Cardiff, because the system set up by the English with our liabilities agreement does not allow them to align competitive teams. More money in each as much money in others, this is also known impoverish" critical that leader trained in European negotiations (particularly in 2000 about the return of English clubs ... ) .
”

Your translator package seems knackered.

I'm sure you can make out what one of the founding members of the LNR is trying to say. I think I'll take his word over some random poster on 606

profitius wrote:
It has not. It has resulted in a massive increase in players wages. So it's like them getting £1 extra but needing to spend £2 due to inflation. Not to mention missing out on attendance's, prize money etc.

Mate, that's nonsense.

The inflation in wages has always been there but is accelerated by domestic TV deals. The ERC couldn't have prevented the French TV deal or BT Sport's intrusion.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Ok do you speak for Cardiff blues? Are you voicing there opinion, if not are you basing your opinion on assumptions?

Nope, I speak for nobody. My opinion is based on what's obvious, what I've been told and what I've read.

So no facts? Not one?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it? Interest would drop as you'd see the vast majority of matches during the normal season from Europe.

Why do you think English clubs would want less power and allow Wales, ireland and Scotland equal money to them thus increasing competition?

This is like pulling teeth.

Do you understand the concept of conferences? They are designed to prevent what you've written in your second sentence.

I think that English clubs appreciate that competition grows businesses by growing markets. Whether there is 'equal money' is yet to be seen, of course, because, as this thread has shown, some are 'more equal' than others.

carpet baboon wrote:
So no facts? Not one?

It seems that half the time you confirm what I've written and then the other half you try to dismiss what you've already confirmed.

We all know the possibility of this kind of thing being discussed, we all know the likelihood of it coming off. We've all seen what has already happened when clubs get the backing of broadcasters.

All that is unknown is the timescale.

I've obviously misunderstood your proposal again, apologies! As long as English could govern themselves and have more money it would work fine.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
So no facts? Not one?

It seems that half the time you confirm what I've written and then the other half you try to dismiss what you've already confirmed.

We all know the possibility of this kind of thing being discussed, we all know the likelihood of it coming off. We've all seen what has already happened when clubs get the backing of broadcasters.

All that is unknown is the timescale.

No you talk about better TV deals then state they don't exist. You talk about all being in agreement apart from the IRFU then say you have no facts not been to any meetings and are relying on information passed onto you, then you add your opinion and conclude that that is the correct answer.
You belittle everyone else for not seeing what you see, when in fact what you see is just your opinion, not a fact

carpet baboon wrote:
No you talk about better TV deals then state they don't exist. You talk about all being in agreement apart from the IRFU then say you have no facts not been to any meetings and are relying on information passed onto you, then you add your opinion and conclude that that is the correct answer.
You belittle everyone else for not seeing what you see, when in fact what you see is just your opinion, not a fact

Hmmm, that is an interesting summary. Untrue, but interesting.

Here we go for the hard of thought: there is a movement to unify rugby in the NH, led by a broadcaster (if not multiple). For that broadcaster to be successful, it would need to propose something beneficial to either all or beneficial to a majority of the interested parties.

Now, to attack that proposal with claims of 'control', or 'not enough money' is ludicrous as the movement would not get off the ground without overcoming those issues first.

Let's at least be honest here about the alleged fears of the club game moving forward in such a way, shall we? We all know that the only resistance will be Irish rugby followers who are stuck in the mindset that the Blazer knows best because, foolishly, they think the success of Munster and Leinster was delivered by the Irish rugby system. In reality, it was just the Golden Generation and a flash of cash that bought the HECs.

Neither advantage is now available to the IRFU, so it's time to move with the flow.

And that flow is the growth of the club based game and the winners are all of the people that Irish rugby followers (as a catchall generalisation) had an issue with over ERC. And lost.

Let's at least be honest about that.

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
It's for completely different reason than what you think though. The fact you think the EPRC are somehow good for the Pro 12 teams shows how off track you are. The IRFU have not bought well when we comes to NIQ players and have blocked the signings of top internationals because they don't suit team Ireland.

The EPRC is excellent for all PrO'12 teams. It brings them more income than the blazer run ERC could have done.

The IRFU by retaining ownership over its branches (and by blocking signings, as you've noted) is holding them all back. Too right.

It has not. It has resulted in a massive increase in players wages. So it's like them getting £1 extra but needing to spend £2 due to inflation. Not to mention missing out on attendance's, prize money etc.

Mate, that's nonsense.

The inflation in wages has always been there but is accelerated by domestic TV deals. The ERC couldn't have prevented the French TV deal or BT Sport's intrusion.

I know wages are going up but that's not the point. You said the EPRC has resulted in more money for the pro12 sides and that's a good thing. Well it isn't because the pro12 sides got a lesser chunk of money between the 4 countries therefore putting them in a weaker position.


@leinsterfan4life, the IRFU are doing the right thing. They can't and should not try to outbid thge English and French teams and no point signing journeymen these days.

Ok did you say they want t to move the 6 nations?
Did you say it's only the IRFU who are opposed?

profitius wrote:

I know wages are going up but that's not the point. You said the EPRC has resulted in more money for the pro12 sides and that's a good thing. Well it isn't because the pro12 sides got a lesser chunk of money between the 4 countries therefore putting them in a weaker position.


@leinsterfan4life, the IRFU are doing the right thing. They can't and should not try to outbid thge English and French teams and no point signing journeymen these days.

That's not entirely true, is it? EPRC pays equally per team, bar than for the Scottish and Italians who get more.

I'm pretty sure that the IRFU is happy to outbid French and English teams, you know.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20714.php#.VtRpljZiyhQ

carpet baboon wrote:Ok did you say they want t to move the 6 nations?
Did you say it's only the IRFU who are opposed?

Yes
No

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Ok did you say they want t to move the 6 nations?
Did you say it's only the IRFU who are opposed?

Yes
No

Ok so did you say only one union was opposed?
And you know these are facts because?

And did you claim the IRFUs only bargaining tool is existing contracts?
And did you say no meetings have taken place?

Oh and you asked for a reason it won't work.
The teams not invited especially the ones from the PRL will do all they can to scupper it. And I know you will say they can't make a case from not being invited to a new tournament, but it's not about a case they can win it's about a case that will drag on and on and on.
Second reason how do they pick what sides enter? Would have to be on merit as the PRL love merit. So the last season's league standings? Look at bath this year think they will except not being at the top table?

profitius wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
It's for completely different reason than what you think though. The fact you think the EPRC are somehow good for the Pro 12 teams shows how off track you are. The IRFU have not bought well when we comes to NIQ players and have blocked the signings of top internationals because they don't suit team Ireland.

The EPRC is excellent for all PrO'12 teams. It brings them more income than the blazer run ERC could have done.

The IRFU by retaining ownership over its branches (and by blocking signings, as you've noted) is holding them all back. Too right.

It has not. It has resulted in a massive increase in players wages. So it's like them getting £1 extra but needing to spend £2 due to inflation. Not to mention missing out on attendance's, prize money etc.

Mate, that's nonsense.

The inflation in wages has always been there but is accelerated by domestic TV deals. The ERC couldn't have prevented the French TV deal or BT Sport's intrusion.

I know wages are going up but that's not the point. You said the EPRC has resulted in more money for the pro12 sides and that's a good thing. Well it isn't because the pro12 sides got a lesser chunk of money between the 4 countries therefore putting them in a weaker position.


@leinsterfan4life, the IRFU are doing the right thing. They can't and should not try to outbid thge English and French teams and no point signing journeymen these days.

We can compete with most teams in Europe (which was confirmed by Munster's CEO) we have some of the highest paid players in Europe. Also look at the signings Ulster have just made. The IRFU are just trying to avoid another crisis in certain positions like what happened in the TH position a couple years ago but they have taken it too far imo.

PhilBB - have you got the annual report of the EPRC for last year? If not, when do you think it will be available?

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Ok did you say they want t to move the 6 nations?
Did you say it's only the IRFU who are opposed?

Yes
No

Ok so did you say only one union was opposed?
And you know these are facts because?

No
Source.

carpet baboon wrote:And did you claim the IRFUs only bargaining tool is existing contracts?
And did you say no meetings have taken place?

Yes
No