Who next in, or thereabouts, for England

So itoje and Clifford, as expected, look quality, and we know George is as well as slade.

Whose next up? Anyone else other than Daly (and the other regular names such as ewers) that people want to see in the 23 in the near future?

With reservations about the rules that allow it; Nathan Hughes.

Back row of Itoje, Hughes and Clifford could be good.

He's hardly a newcomer as he's already named in the EPS but Dave Ewers really will add another if ball carrying option in the back row! Top metres made and carries for a 6 in the Prem last season and also played a whole season at 8 before Waldrom joined. Tops the scales at 20.5 stone.

I'm confused, less than a half v Italy, denizens of the 2nd half collapse, and Itoje is 'quality'?

What is it with England, this obsession with constantly replacing players with the Flavour of the Month? A few months ago Robshaw was Capt, now he is useless in the position where everyone said he shoudl be all along, Billy is being talked up as world class. But wait, lo on the touchline, a new dawn awaits......

There is much more to be gained in some, any continuity, than this constant unerring insistence on replacing players every 5 minutes.

After four years and going into a World Cup SL didn't seem to know his best team. The centre pairing introduced themselves at the start of the first match.

Eddie Jones said last week that he never throws anyone in the deep end unless he knows they can swim. Perhaps England now has a coach who will resist the constant clamour for the next best thing.

Hello gwlud. thanks for the contribution.

I personally don't know much about rugby other as an occasional armchair fan,
I thought this question was a good way to learn a bit more about who to watch out for .

X

Ewers weight is marked at 18 stones 115kg not 20 on the Chiefs site

Gwlad Itoje is hardly flavour of the month... perhaps if you watched rugby once in a while you'd realise he's been in good form for almost a season and in my opinion was unlucky not to have featured in England's RWC campaign.

He's been a player who was namechecked by Lancaster a long time ago. Was in the Saxons last year. He hasn't just popped up. He's a player that has been on the radar for a while.

England need a fresh impetus in the squad after the RWC failure, the only way you do that is with new players.

Well Harry Mallinder seems to be an emerging player, perhaps he'll feature in the future.

That England 12 shirt is up for grabs.

The clamouring for the next big thing gets a bit wearing after a while, though I have been guilty of it myself.

The current situation is that England actually have a squad that's not in bad shape today. Before the RWC, most people would have agreed that, barring endless debate about Cipriani, Armitage, Wade and Kvesic, the squad was about right. It was one of the youngest and least experienced squads among the major nations at the RWC, and it showed - but the balance of players is about right for it to have a good balance of age and experience come 2019.

Eddie has in the last couple of weeks publicly thanked Lancaster for the squad he's been handed, and has also declared a gameplan based on being a faster and fitter side that is very similar to what Lancaster was trying to do. The difference will be in execution.

In short: don't expect wholesale change.

That said, Eddie is a pretty demanding coach and existing players will fall by the wayside if they don't step up to his standards. He is also likely to try to rotate players through positions to build up a squad of 33 who are familiar with each others' games. That, plus England's perennial inability to keep the same two centres fit from series to series, will give the opportunity to new players coming through.

So, who might be on the list?

Eddie has already namechecked Sam Underhill, currently plying his trade in Wales but seen by Jones as the only current EQP candidate to be a long term 7.

Josh Beaumont has caught the eye as a big powerful back 5 forward who can also handle but, along with Underhill, Nathan Hughes and Dave Ewers is competing for the shirts already occupied by Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis, Itoje, Haskell, Robshaw, Billy V and Clifford. Kvesic is also in with a shout but has been asked to up his carrying.

In the front row, Auterac, the Wallers, possibly Lahiff might challenge the duopoly of Mako and Marler in time, Luke Cowan-Dickie is next in line as hooker (but his basics have looked a bit ropy at international level). Brookes and Thomas seem to have slipped behind Hill; in the longer term we could see Collier or Sinckler make a charge.

In the backs, beyond the likes of Slade and Hill I am not sure who might break through. It's already a pretty young bunch with not much experience and my guess is that Eddie will not change the group - though he will change the players in the XXIII - that much unless someone emerges who absolutely demands inclusion.

I'd also add Mitch Lees. He's a brute. Injury has laid him low but he is definitely one to watch. Maybe next season now. Also Sam James of Sale and mallinder. Both big skilful backs.

Given Itoje will probably be established in the team by then at lock and Slater waiting in the wings and hopefully fit not sure how far up the pecking order Lees will get.

Sean Robinson...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given Itoje will probably be established in the team by then at lock and Slater waiting in the wings and hopefully fit not sure how far up the pecking order Lees will get.

I'm guessing your not too good at brain storming?

Why? If we want to list all English qualified players fair enough, Lees isn't going to be pushing for a place unless there's a series of injuries.

Or Mark Wilson...awesome flanker who has been the joint best lock this season...with Robinson...

But he plays for the falcons so he's not rated!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why? If we want to list all English qualified players fair enough, Lees isn't going to be pushing for a place unless there's a series of injuries.

And he's an Aussie

What about Marcus Watson. Been a revelation for us since moving from the 7's

Are we just listing lots of EQ'd players.

There or there about, surely Taylor has a chance especially as he's going to a more fashionable club who seem to be on the up.

I'd like to see Taylor put a stone on. He just looks a little lightweight at the moment. But he's a good player.

Gwlad wrote:I'm confused, less than a half v Italy, denizens of the 2nd half collapse, and Itoje is 'quality'?

What is it with England, this obsession with constantly replacing players with the Flavour of the Month? A few months ago Robshaw was Capt, now he is useless in the position where everyone said he shoudl be all along,  Billy is being talked up as world class. But wait, lo on the touchline, a new dawn awaits......

There is much more to be gained in some, any continuity, than this constant unerring insistence on replacing players every 5 minutes.

Drives me nuts as well. We have a crop of decent players who have the potential to play a role in the England team but it won't happen over night. Robshaw needs to worry less about his work rate and more about adding some cool tats and maybe something along the lines of a mohawk to make him stand out a bit more, that should get him back on side All this unseen work he does is soooo boring

PS the above isn't aimed at the OP, good call starting a separate thread on the subject rather than having it plastered over every other England thread.

Hoonercat wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I'm confused, less than a half v Italy, denizens of the 2nd half collapse, and Itoje is 'quality'?

What is it with England, this obsession with constantly replacing players with the Flavour of the Month? A few months ago Robshaw was Capt, now he is useless in the position where everyone said he shoudl be all along,  Billy is being talked up as world class. But wait, lo on the touchline, a new dawn awaits......

There is much more to be gained in some, any continuity, than this constant unerring insistence on replacing players every 5 minutes.

 Drives me nuts as well. We have a crop of decent players who have the potential to play a role in the England team but it won't happen over night. Robshaw needs to worry less about his work rate and more about adding some cool tats and maybe something along the lines of a mohawk to make him stand out a bit more, that should get him back on side All this unseen work he does is soooo boring

100% agree. I call it the Panini Sticker Album Rule. Mediocre football players used to do this before World Cups - get their hair bleached a silly colour or grow a ridiculous beard so that they stand out from the crowd. Not for what they do but because they get noticed.

For me Robshaw is an enabler, much like Kaino for the ABs or Lydiate for Wales. Does the nasty grunt work to enable the more flash players to get their hands on the ball. I like Robshaw at 6 for England, and despite Haskell making a strong start to the tournament at 7, I still prefer Robshaw in the 6 jersey with a proper 7 at 7.

To be honest I wouldn't change the England 23 for the next game. Thought the bench made a really strong impact and whilst the starting XV took a while to get going, better teams than England will find Italy difficult to break down in the first half. They are far better drilled than they used to be and have a robust and physical defence/set piece. Like Scotland, Italy don't have cavalry off the bench, whereas Itoje, Clifford and Launchbury generate momentum for England.

Hoonercat wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I'm confused, less than a half v Italy, denizens of the 2nd half collapse, and Itoje is 'quality'?

What is it with England, this obsession with constantly replacing players with the Flavour of the Month? A few months ago Robshaw was Capt, now he is useless in the position where everyone said he shoudl be all along,  Billy is being talked up as world class. But wait, lo on the touchline, a new dawn awaits......

There is much more to be gained in some, any continuity, than this constant unerring insistence on replacing players every 5 minutes.

 Drives me nuts as well. We have a crop of decent players who have the potential to play a role in the England team but it won't happen over night. Robshaw needs to worry less about his work rate and more about adding some cool tats and maybe something along the lines of a mohawk to make him stand out a bit more, that should get him back on side All this unseen work he does is soooo boring

Everyone would mistake him for a certain prop then..

Pressure is on Robshaw because of his lack of ball carrying ability or at least perceived to have. As a player he has a lot of ability but it's that potential weak link which might see Eddie Jones replacing him. We know that from his comments about Ksevic that he wants to see more prominent ball carrying.

Perhaps it's unfair on Robshaw but it's the way Eddie Jones seems to want to shift England in my opinion. Having no openside in the 23 is an indicator.

It's a reason why Borthwick was never truly embraced at international level, his lack of ball carrying ability, now I would say Robshaw is a better ball carrier than Borthwick but both known for huge workrate and "unseen" work and both in my opinion hold that weakness.

England love big ball carriers in my opinion.

It's why the likes of Ewers,Itoje,Clifford and Hughes are being welcomed with open arms as prospects.

You need a balance Beshocked between carriers and workers and specialists.

Or ultimately all of the above.

for example Pocock is a specialist 7 and best in the world...but his work rate if off the scale.

We need to make sure the players we have identified as the future can match that.

ALL players should have a high work rate ability...or fitness. But having that work rate with the skills is what makes a great player.

beshocked wrote:Pressure is on Robshaw because of his lack of ball carrying ability or at least perceived to have. As a player he has a lot of ability but it's that potential weak link which might see Eddie Jones replacing him. We know that from his comments about Ksevic that he wants to see more prominent ball carrying.

Perhaps it's unfair on Robshaw but it's the way Eddie Jones seems to want to shift England in my opinion. Having no openside in the 23 is an indicator.

It's a reason why Borthwick was never truly embraced at international level, his lack of ball carrying ability, now I would say Robshaw is a better ball carrier than Borthwick but both known for huge workrate and "unseen" work and both in my opinion hold that weakness.

England love big ball carriers in my opinion.

It's why the likes of Ewers,Itoje,Clifford and Hughes are being welcomed with open arms as prospects.

I notice you say "a reason" which is the key point. It's a bit like the point you made re: Denton not comparing favourably to the other number 8s in the tournament; it was the same with Borthwick. Scotland had Hines, Ireland had POC, Wales had AWJ, France had Pelous etc. Borthwick wasn't a bad player, he just didn't bring the physical power and presence to international rugby as some of the better locks on the circuit at the time (including Simon Shaw), and it diminished him as a captain getting knocked back in contact. You couldn't fault him for honest hard graft, but truth be told that England side never really struck the right balance and Borthwick was supposed to be its figurehead. Comparisons to Martin Johnson were also as unfortunate and unfavourable as they were inevitable.

Robshaw isn't repeatedly smashed backwards by backs like Borthwick was

For me the most telling thing with Borthwick was what happened the 1st game he wasn't there. He wasn't missed at all.

The 23 with the exception of Slade looks about right but whether you play him at 10 or 12 is up for debate, i'd possibly be inclined to have Farrell at 10 with at 12 but that depends on who's at 13. Slade would have a bit too much defensive work to do in a team alongside Ford and Joseph like Farrell did on Sunday.

Bambam I've never claimed Borthwick was a good ball carrier or indeed better than Robshaw.

Just think there are comparisons. Honest hard working blokes. Not media darlings. Both former England captains. Neither known for their ball carrying but both respected as leaders for their respective clubs despite getting flack at international level.

I am not even saying Robshaw should be dropped, just suggesting that the tide turns against him because of that lack of ball carrying ability. Also let's be honest I doubt he would tear into sides off the bench either.

Eddie Jones quite clearly prefers more of a rabid bull dog spirit. Why else would he pick Hartley as his captain and Farrell as one of his vice captain?

FES I wouldn't put Hines on the same level as AWJ or O Connell personally. I am not claiming Borthwick was on par with Johnson, just seen similarities between Borthwick and Robshaw.

Hammersmith harrier I am sure Farrell will be tested by Roberts.

When thinking about next in, you also have to think about next out, and with England being in the main a young side there aren't that many spots up for grabs.

Haskell and Robshaw are definitely under pressure as two of the older squad members, and being players with limitations (CRs lack of carrying prowess, Haskell's absence of brain and hands). Plenty of options coming through as 6 or 6.5 flankers, but surely we have to give Kvesic or another 'pure' openside a chance as well.

12 obviously still an issue, and for me Farrell there is nothing more than a stop gap. Slade is better suited to the playmaking 12 role than OF, and then there's the question of whether Manu can fill the role to give bosh alongside Joseph's guile. Devoto and Hill obviously well on the radar, and I like Stephenson at Northampton, but wonder if he's a little too small especially with Ford and Joseph as his midfield partners.

Further down the line we will have to look at scrum half (Care's 29 ) and fullback (Brown is 30, Goode and Foden similar). The assumption seems to be that Anthony Watson will move to full back, opening a wing spot for which we already have several somewhat experienced options, but I'm really not sure where the next new scrum half is coming from - I know Spencer at Sarries was highly regarded in the age group teams, but seems to have struggled to get game time over the last couple of seasons.

englandglory4ever wrote:I'd also add Mitch Lees. He's a brute.  Injury has laid him low but he is definitely one to watch. Maybe next season now. Also Sam James of Sale and mallinder. Both big skilful backs.

Leave young Harry where he is now, learning he is only 19.

If he can keep his place in the Saints team, next year he may be in with a shout at the EPS or possibly (very unlikely) the summer tour. He has the skill set but is still so very inexperienced. If he was Welsh I suspect he would already be around the team, but like good wine, the English take longer to mature.

He is making Burrell, a player well off his best, sing at the moment he would probably do the same for Manu or JJ (or even Burrell, remember his form at 13 a couple of years ago).

Another bolter for the summer tour could be Mikey Haywood, he is on a par with Hartley so should ahead of LCD if they want to rest George, I don't like younger players having to play through 2 years without a proper break, they seem to get broken easier and often don't return to their old selves.

dummy_half wrote:Further down the line we will have to look at scrum half (Care's 29 ) and fullback (Brown is 30, Goode and Foden similar). The assumption seems to be that Anthony Watson will move to full back, opening a wing spot for which we already have several somewhat experienced options, but I'm really not sure where the next new scrum half is coming from - I know Spencer at Sarries was highly regarded in the age group teams, but seems to have struggled to get game time over the last couple of seasons.

We do need a younger SH to kick on, to at least pressure Lenny n Danny. Of course Youngs is not ancient (nor Care) as he will have his 30th birthday around the start of RWC19.


Robson has always looked good but like Spencer has struggled to get gametime.


as to FB - Goode is only 27 so has years ahead of him - and some would argue no pace to lose as he ages

It will be interesting to see how Devoto developes at Exeter aswell. Great coaching team down there...should bring out the best in him.

Him and Malinder are similar types. But they'll both have to get past Slade. Such a shame he got his injury!

LT

Thought Goode was older - seems to have been around on the fringes of the squad a long time (a bit like Cipriani). You could be right that he has a longer career than anticipated, as he has no pace to lose as he ages...

I've been wondering for a while whether Goode should actually try to convert to being a 12 - has good enough skills to play 10 for Sarries on occasion, and his lack of outright pace would be less of an issue in midfield than at 15. Would need to work on defensive positioning and might need to bulk up a bit.

Oh. and it looks like a bit of Wikipedia vandalism - his current article says:

"A fly half by trade, he moved to full back and has played the majority of his games for Saracens in these positions. This is mainly due to his lightning feet and magical change of both acceleration and direction. His steps have often made opponents' virginity grow back."

GeordieFalcon wrote:It will be interesting to see how Devoto developes at Exeter aswell. Great coaching team down there...should bring out the best in him.

Him and Malinder are similar types. But they'll both have to get past Slade. Such a shame he got his injury!

It will depend on the type of game plan EJ wants to play, Slade has all the skills, but HM is not far behind, plus he has pace and 17+ stone for the opposition to contend with. a line up of 10 - Slade, 12 - Mallinder, 13 - Manu/Joseph would be interesting in a couple of years time.

Devoto is a stone or so lighter and a bit slower than HM (who is likely to get heavier at only 19), I don't really see much difference between OD and Farrell to be honest, Farrell a stone lighter, but with better hands and feet.

Some positions, like lock will be very hard to break into without injuries (which I suppose there always are).

We are fine at 1,2,3,4,5,8,9,10,11,13,14,15

Of those; Billy needs a back up, Lawes needs form, Simpson was unlucky, not sure who 3rd choice wing is and will Watson move to fullback eventually.

Issues are: 6,7 and 12 - Always.

I would prefer a meaty, hard, ball carrying, player smashing 6 and a linkman, breakdown specialist 7. I doubt I'll get it.

12 - Waiting for Slade to be fit basically so we can try him.

Centres of Slade, JJ, Daly and Manu probably covers all that we need.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:It will be interesting to see how Devoto developes at Exeter aswell. Great coaching team down there...should bring out the best in him.

Him and Malinder are similar types. But they'll both have to get past Slade. Such a shame he got his injury!

It will depend on the type of game plan EJ wants to play, Slade has all the skills, but HM is not far behind, plus he has pace and 17+ stone for the opposition to contend with.  a line up of 10 - Slade, 12 - Mallinder, 13 - Manu/Joseph would be interesting in a couple of years time.

.

It would indeed!

Forgot Mallinder. He's looking quite exciting and similar to Greenwood both physically and in skill set.

beshocked, if Eddie were concerned about Robshaw's carrying, he had other options he could have picked - Tom Wood for instance. He didn't. From what I know of both player (a lot) and coach (not so much, but I have been watching him very closely since his appointment), Eddie will have given Robshaw a very precise job to do, and Robshaw will have done it. His comment post the Scotland match was telling "Ten overs for not much" - i.e. a decent containing job on the opposition. His carrying is also less about big yards and more often about taking slow ball into traffic, tying up defenders and getting it back cleanly - which he consistently does.

I fully expect Clifford, Itoje, Ewers etc to have become the first choices by 2019 but the old guard aren't done just yet.

I think it a little unfair to focus on Robshaw's carrying when his workrate around the field is superior to others. 10 minutes on the pitch and he's sweating and panting while others still look fresh. In fact he seems to be in that state permanently throughout the game, can you really expect him to carry as hard as others who are doing less work? His 'unseen' work means that others are fresher to do the carrying, take that away and you could possibly see carrying decline in the other forwards as they'll be working harder. On top of that he doesn't get as much opportunity to run onto the ball, it's usually a grab and go affair in close proximity to defenders.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:It will be interesting to see how Devoto developes at Exeter aswell. Great coaching team down there...should bring out the best in him.

Him and Malinder are similar types. But they'll both have to get past Slade. Such a shame he got his injury!

It will depend on the type of game plan EJ wants to play, Slade has all the skills, but HM is not far behind, plus he has pace and 17+ stone for the opposition to contend with.  a line up of 10 - Slade, 12 - Mallinder, 13 - Manu/Joseph would be interesting in a couple of years time.

Devoto is a stone or so lighter and a bit slower than HM (who is likely to get heavier at only 19), I don't really see much difference between OD and Farrell to be honest, Farrell a stone lighter, but with better hands and feet.

Devoto carries better, basically. He might be slightly quicker than Farrell too, but that doesn't matter so much at 12.

If Mallinder keeps playing as well as he is now until the end of the season I think he'll be taken on tour. His emergence must be bad news for Stephenson (who I presume is injured?).

I too like Slade, Mallinder, JJ, Daly/Tuilagi as a future option. There are a few young 12s quicking around, and I wouldn't be surprised if Slade ends up at 10 (as a sort of cross between Farrell and Ford).

I'm wavering a bit on Itoje now, and wonder if he might not play quite a lot at 6 for the next few years. He has a combination of athleticism, power, technique, workrate and reading of the game which demands inclusion, and as we have pretty good options at lock why not fit him in at 6, at least until he fully bulks up? Then 7 would be a shoot out between Clifford, Underhill and possibly Kvesic (if he can work on his deficiencies). Beaumont, Ewers and Hughes will all be around the squad for years to come, and Morgan is showing signs of form too, so we've 8's coming out of our ears.

If EJ turns out to be a good selector then we are surely in business.

dummy_half wrote:... I'm really not sure where the next new scrum half is coming from...

I wish Eastmond had been given the brief to learn the position. He may have never developed a great kicking game, but he would have enjoyed getting the ball a lot, and no-one would have worried about his size.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why? If we want to list all English qualified players fair enough, Lees isn't going to be pushing for a place unless there's a series of injuries.

He was much closer to selection than you think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35301118

And this weeks dream backline is......

Care Cipriani Wade Tuilagi Slade May Angry

Back 5

Itoje Lawes
Armitage Vunipola Hughes

Front row ?

Sam James is a good call, I just hope Sale manage to keep hold of him. They are being stripped clean by more 'fashionable' clubs. It's the life of the northern clubs I suppose.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why? If we want to list all English qualified players fair enough, Lees isn't going to be pushing for a place unless there's a series of injuries.

He was much closer to selection than you think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35301118

I don't think he was. Presumably by this you feel the Bath front were as well? You do realise that Jones visited every single club and had talks on all qualified players? Like I said Lees would be quite a way down the list.

Can I just ask what do people really think of Kvesic. What is it that Jones doesn't like?

Im just not sure he should be left out. And to say his carrying needs to improve, im just not sure, I think he's actually quite a good carrier.

I prefer Fraser. What's wrong with him I ask!?

I would have liked to see Kvesic get a full 6Ns in the 7 shirt. I have read all sorts of reasons as to why Jones does not rate him - none of which convince me. That the breakdown has been a mess for us so far (especially in both first halves where the opposition were able to slow down our ball with impunity) suggests what we currently have is not working.

I woudl say though, that with limited preparation time, it does feel that Jones and crew decided to opt for experience and will only slowly introduce younger players. After all both starting XVs were made up of players that were in the RWC squad (unless I have forgotten someone)

Another very good question 7.5

I appreciate we have won our games. Im just a little confused why he says we don't have good 7's to work with when personally I believe we do!