England XV of the pro era

Well, this seems to be in vogue. Slightly different question when looking at England, which really is who would replace any of the starting XV from the 2003 RWC final?

Absolute certainties for me from that team:

2 - Tommo
3 - Vickery
4 - MJ
6 - Hill
7 - Back
8 - Larry Dayglo

9 - Dawson
10 - Wilkinson
11 - Cohen
12 - Greenwood
14 - Robinson.

At loosehead, you probably have to give the legend that is Jason Leonard the edge over Woodman, although TW obviously was outstanding prior to his career curtailing injury
2nd row/ lineout - Probably have to stick with Ben Kay, as Simon Shaw was more a like-for-like with Johnno
Outside centre - Guscott's career extended into the pro era, but he was probably past his best by 95. Manu certainly the most dangerous player we've had there in the recent past, but is it a legitimate selection when he has played relatively few matches. Tempted to stick with Tindall and remember how good he was for a period from about 2001 to 2007 rather than the more limited player of his later career.
Full back - I think over the last 2 or 3 seasons Mike Brown has probably done enough to make this his jersey and mean Robinson on the wing and Lewsey one of the best of the rest.

I don't think i'd swap a single one of them to be honest, the only dilemna's are Leonard or Woodman or Robinson at full back with Luger on the wing or Lewsey at full back with Robinson on the wing.

This would be mine:

1.Leonard 2.Thompson 3.Vickery 4.Johnson 5.Shaw 6.Hill 7.Back 8.Dallaglio 9.Dawson 10.Wilkinson 11.Robinson 12.Greenwood 13.Guscott 14.Cohen 15.Lewsey

16.Sheridan 17.Hartley 18.Cole 19.Kay 20.Corry 21.Healy 22.Catt 23.Tuilagi

It has to be the side that won the 2003 WC surely. Cannot think of another player that would have got into the starting 15, perhaps Carling and Brian Moore on the bench, but the 2003 starting 15 would take it for me.

fES

It was all going so well until you mentioned Austin Healy .

More seriously, I'd say that having both Healy and Catt on the bench is over-playing the versatility angle - I think between them they started internationals at all positions in the back division. I'd have Bracken in as a specialist 9 ahead of Healy and Catt being the 10-12-15 cover (Manu as 13 and wing cover)

Swap Kay and Shaw, and I'd go with Woodman and Moody on the bench. Also, I used to really like Phil Greening as hooker - almost as mad and dynamic as Keith Wood, so I'd go with him rather than the more solid Hartley.

LD
Moore and Carling for me really belong to the last (sh)amateur era. Certainly Moore's best was the early 90s, and he wouldn't have had the bulk for the modern game. Carling would probably have been OK, but I would put him behind Greenwood as an inside centre and behind Guscott, Tindall and Manu as an outside centre.

dummy_half wrote:Moore and Carling for me really belong to the last (sh)amateur era. Certainly Moore's best was the early 90s, and he wouldn't have had the bulk for the modern game. Carling would probably have been OK, but I would put him behind Greenwood as an inside centre and behind Guscott, Tindall and Manu as an outside centre.

I just always remember them ripping Wales apart. Moore would wind us all up before a ball was kicked, Carling fecked our rugby team, then he fecked our princess as well.

Guscott + 2003 would be my starting point, but I think that may be underrating what Tindall brought to that side a bit

I'd also consider having Lewsey and Robinson as my wings, with Brown at full back

BamBam

I think Tindall's qualities are often glossed over because he went on too long and the last couple of seasons he was really only a big lump who carried crash ball and tackled. Looking back to around 2003 and particularly the year or two after and he was much more versatile, although was never the greatest passer of the ball off his left hand.

I've no doubt that Guscott's best was better than Tindall's best, just that Jerry was 30 by the time professionalism came about and he was starting to lose that extra half yard of pace that made him so dangerous, and so his best came in the amateur era.

Greenwood and Guscott would be the best England centres from any era, I would think and I'd definitely replace Tindall with Jerry. It would have the added bonus that Guscott wouldn't be able to summarise, analyse or commentate on the team.

Elsewhere, I might say bugger the duplication, give me Shaw and Johnson in the second row. Shaw intimidated opponents; not sure Kay ever did. Robinson on the wing and Lewsey at full-back, in my opinion, just as in the RWC final. Otherwise, the side pretty much selects itself, with Leonard and Woodman a very tight call for the starting loose-head berth.

Yeah, Guscott was perhaps only half the player 95-99 that he was 89-95.

As to SH, I actually believe Healey was the most talented Englishman I have seen in that position. However I cannot select him as he played wing for England.

Agree that the edge of Guscott's pace had been dulled by the time the pro era rolled around; he was still quicker than Tindall at his fastest and light-years ahead of him in general appreciation of what was around him. Could tackle as well. The great versus the very good, in my opinion, even in the period under consideration.

And I know it was the "holy trinity"...but Tim Rodber was immense in the back row!

Think Ben Cohen was good when he was young but his injuries and lack of pace thereafter showed he was a bit of a one trick pony. Dan Luger was equally devastating and he was a modern day Jonny May.

Probably difficult to look beyond 08 as really England haven't really had any great players since. You could probably have said every guy in the RWC03 final team was a top 3 player in the world at the time... when can you say that about any player since 2007?
Tom Croft had 1 or 2 seasons where he was very impressive, Tom Youngs when he first burst onto the scene. Tuilagi when he was fit.

Mike Catt was always a player I admired. Had everything pace, distribution, ball carrying, kicking albeit was too far ahead of his team, always looked to offload when no one in England was used to tracking players so was subject to the turnover. The fact he lasted 4 world cups and way beyond his physical limits showed how skillful he was.

At a push I would say

Leonard, Thompson, Vickery, Shaw, Johnson, Rodber, Hill, Dillaglio, Bracken, Wilkinson, Robinson Catt, Greenwood, Lewsey, Perry.

Guys like Croft, Youngs and Tuilagi would arguably make the bench.

I like it when we had players who could intimidate people. Sometimes in the 2000-2003 era we beat teams before they even stepped onto the pitch.

01. Fun Bus
02. Steve Thompson
03. Phill Vickery (It's amazing that he still playing, when will he retire?)
04. Martin Johnson
05. Danny Grewcock
06. Richard Hill
07. Neil Back
08. Lawrence Dallaglio

09. Matt Dawson
10. Saint Jonny

11. Jason Robinson
12. Will Greeenwood (we have NEVER replaced him)
13. Jerry Guscott
14. Josh Lewesey
15. Matt Perry (You'd bet your mortgage on him under the high ball.)

fa0019 wrote:Think Ben Cohen was good when he was young but his injuries and lack of pace thereafter showed he was a bit of a one trick pony. Dan Luger was equally devastating and he was a modern day Jonny May.

Probably difficult to look beyond 08 as really England haven't really had any great players since. You could probably have said every guy in the RWC03 final team was a top 3 player in the world at the time... when can you say that about any player since 2007?
Tom Croft had 1 or 2 seasons where he was very impressive, Tom Youngs when he first burst onto the scene. Tuilagi when he was fit.

Mike Catt was always a player I admired. Had everything pace, distribution, ball carrying, kicking albeit was too far ahead of his team, always looked to offload when no one in England was used to tracking players so was subject to the turnover. The fact he lasted 4 world cups and way beyond his physical limits showed how skillful he was.

At a push I would say

Leonard, Thompson, Vickery, Shaw, Johnson, Rodber, Hill, Dillaglio, Bracken, Wilkinson, Robinson Catt, Greenwood, Lewsey, Perry.

Guys like Croft, Youngs and Tuilagi would arguably make the bench.

How old do you think Jonny May is?!

fa0019 wrote:Mike Catt was always a player I admired. Had everything pace, distribution, ball carrying, kicking albeit was too far ahead of his team, always looked to offload when no one in England was used to tracking players so was subject to the turnover. The fact he lasted 4 world cups and way beyond his physical limits showed how skillful he was.

I remember he came on and changed the game against us in the 2003 WC, we were all over you, i thought we would win, but on he came in the 2nd half and schooled us. Class player.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Mike Catt was always a player I admired. Had everything pace, distribution, ball carrying, kicking albeit was too far ahead of his team, always looked to offload when no one in England was used to tracking players so was subject to the turnover. The fact he lasted 4 world cups and way beyond his physical limits showed how skillful he was.

I remember he came on and changed the game against us in the 2003 WC, we were all over you, i thought we would win, but on he came in the 2nd half and schooled us. Class player.

I was in the stands at the 2007 Final. Catt put in a remarkable performance - he seemed to be on the end of every high ball and England's prime motivator. What small chance we had of winning evaporated when he left the pitch. And then fate stuck two further fingers up at us and gave us the spectacle of first Joe Worsley and then Peter Richards playing openside.

It's hard to argue against many of the 2003 side. I would put Catt in for Tindall, and you could make a case for Cueto over Cohen, at least in terms of skill set and longevity. Or Lewsey to wing and Perry to fullback. As a second lock, I think Kay is under-rated and a lineout with both Shaw and Johnson would be vulnerable, but Shaw would make the bench.

It is, of course, illegal for any Englishman to suggest that there has ever been a better prop than Jason Leonard.

I think at his best Matt Perry is a good shout at fullback, not as gifted an athlete as others but really good under the high ball. Is still England's most capped fullback?

Elsewhere I really liked Simon shaw but the reality is that he was fourth choice during his late 20's and only really became first choice when the other options were nick Kennedy or Borthwick. Or maybe I'm being a little harsh on him.

Not best xv but on another note how did Fraser waters get about 2 caps when every other centre got a bucketful?! I also think it's amazing that Paul Volley never got a run out, quality player.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think at his best Matt Perry is a good shout at fullback, not as gifted an athlete as others but really good under the high ball. Is still England's most capped fullback?

Just. I think Brown equalled him in number of starts at 15 against Italy.

Actually i tell a lie, Perry started 33 tests at FB, so far Brown as started 32.

anyway (tongue in cheek) my team:

Rowntree, Youngs, Cole, Johnson, Kay, Moody, Back, Corry
Youngs, Flood, Healey, Allen, Manu, Varndell, Tait

Reps: Cockerill, Garforth, White, Parling, Crane, Goode, Smith (O), Underwood (T)

Interesting that Rory Underwood isn't mentioned.

He was a cracking winger in his prime.

EDIT - Sorry he probably wasn't in the Pro era!

LondonTiger wrote:anyway (tongue in cheek) my team:

Rowntree, Youngs, Cole, Johnson, Kay, Moody, Back, Corry
Youngs, Flood, Healey, Allen, Manu, Varndell, Tait

Reps: Cockerill, Garforth, White, Parling, Crane, Goode, Smith (O), Underwood (T)

I couldn't do that with the Falcons

Probably could do a Scottish team though

LordDowlais wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Moore and Carling for me really belong to the last (sh)amateur era. Certainly Moore's best was the early 90s, and he wouldn't have had the bulk for the modern game. Carling would probably have been OK, but I would put him behind Greenwood as an inside centre and behind Guscott, Tindall and Manu as an outside centre.

I just always remember them ripping Wales apart. Moore would wind us all up before a ball was kicked, Carling fecked our rugby team, then he fecked our princess as well.

I remember one game when Jiffy was commentating, i think England won 60 o i think it was. Jiffy saying look at Wales, just look how they are lined up. I have seen 10 year olds pplay better.
And then his voice trail away al most like he was starting too cry.

Brian Moore played his last match for england in the 3-4 playoff at the World Cup - two months before the game went open. Thus not eligible for selection.

LT

Surely the very unlucky Harry Ellis should be one of the two scrum halfs in the squad.. Tom Croft at 6 with Moody dropping to the replacements and Crane dropping out.

LondonTiger wrote:anyway (tongue in cheek) my team:

Rowntree, Youngs, Cole, Johnson, Kay, Moody, Back, Corry
Youngs, Flood, Healey, Allen, Manu, Varndell, Tait

Reps: Cockerill, Garforth, White, Parling, Crane, Goode, Smith (O), Underwood (T)

Hard to argue with a Tigers England contingent. In the pro era the best opposition is probably Wasps:

1.Payne 2.Greening 3.Vickery 4.Shaw 5.Launchbury 6.Worsley 7.Rees 8.Dallaglio 9.Dawson 10.Cipriani 11.Sackey 12.Abbott 13.Waters 14.Wade 15.Lewsey

16.Green 17.Ward 18.Mullan 19.Palmer 20.Haskell 21.Simpson 22.Daly 23.Van Gisbergen

dummy_half wrote:LT

Surely the very unlucky Harry Ellis should be one of the two scrum halfs in the squad.. Tom Croft at 6 with Moody dropping to the replacements and Crane dropping out.

I knew I would forget about people, and two major people to forget. Ellis starts, Youngs moves to bench and tony Underwood drops out (meaning we have 3 SHs now). agree with the Croft call.

Harry Ellis. What a shame, and what an act of thuggery.

And while we're at it, Nick Duncombe. What a shame, and what an awful way to go.

Poorfour wrote:Harry Ellis. What a shame, and what an act of thuggery.

And while we're at it, Nick Duncombe. What a shame, and what an awful way to go.

Agreedx2

Poorfour wrote:Harry Ellis. What a shame, and what an act of thuggery.

And while we're at it, Nick Duncombe. What a shame, and what an awful way to go.

Agree on both points. I thought Harry Ellis was a terrific player.
And forgot about Duncombe. Shame. All that potential. Meningitis, wan't it?

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Harry Ellis. What a shame, and what an act of thuggery.

And while we're at it, Nick Duncombe. What a shame, and what an awful way to go.

Agree on both points.  I thought Harry Ellis was a terrific player.  
And forgot about Duncombe.  Shame.  All that potential.  Meningitis, wan't it?

Never did it in the big games though... Flashes of brilliance against Samoa is fine for a fringe player but to get to the next step you have to put in big performances versus the best and I just don't think he did that.