England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3

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ENGLAND vs  IRELAND

Date: Saturday 27th February 2016
Venue: Twickenham
Kick Off: 16:50 (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)
Asst Refs: Nigel Owens (WRU), Alexandre Ruiz (FFR)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (SARU)
TV Coverage: Live on ITV, RTE, FR2


Head to Head

Played - 119
Wins - 65/47
Draws - 7
Points - 1443/1037


Current Form

England:
W 40-9 v Italy
W 15-9 v Scotland
W 60-3 v Uruguay

Ireland:
L 9-10 v France
D 16-16 v wales
L 20-43 v Argentina


Recent Meetings

05/09/15 England 21 Ireland 13
01/03015 Ireland 19 England 9
22/02/14 England 13 Ireland 10
10/02/13 Ireland 6 England 12
17/03/12 England 30 Ireland 9



Teams

England


1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 39 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 68 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 1 cap)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 12 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 45 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 64 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 23 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 37 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 45 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 5 caps)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 30 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 44 caps)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 2 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 56 caps)
22 Elliot Daly (Wasps, uncapped)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 20 caps)


Ireland


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 68
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 60
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 17
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 47
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 58
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 44
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 27
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain 91
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 36
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 33
6. CJ Stander (Munster) 2
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain 82

Replacements
16. Richard Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 14
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
18. Nathan White (Connacht) 10
19. Ultane Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 7
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster) 68
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 27
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster) 22

VinceWLB wrote:So now reckless play (at best) which could have turned a player blind is within the rules? Only at Twickenham i guess.

It was reckless play at worst. Rucking is within the rules. He might be guilty of being careless and so may get a ban but any suggestion of it being deliberate is nonsense.

LondonTiger wrote:Billy was excellent and ended the game as captain too. I hope this pouts to bed assertions that he is merely place warming for Nathan hughes.

Yes, I was impressed again with Vunipola, he's improving and adding to his game. Looking forward to the match up with him and Faletau. Should be one of several good head to heads.

Billy Vunipola's use in rugby matches should be branded a crime against humanity. He's a wrecking machine.

What I don't like about all the hoo har is that it takes away from the game itself. There seem to be some here who would rather the game yesterday had been wrecked as any kind of event with one side having players sent off just so long as England lost.

What's more its very noticeable where the people shouting loudest about some of the English actions come from, and its not Ireland.

Majestic- I said the one that injured him was first kick and the ball was there to be played.
Agree Billy Vunipola was fantastic- thought he has been good for awhile but now looks like taken it to another level. I'm not a big Farrell fan but I think he been playing very well as well. I guess Eng fans don't see him as 12 long term?? If not would u guys have him at 10, or is 12 actually his best position?

lostinwales wrote:What I don't like about all the hoo har is that it takes away from the game itself. There seem to be some here who would rather the game yesterday had been wrecked as any kind of event with one side having players sent off just so long as England lost.

What's more its very noticeable where the people shouting loudest about some of the English actions come from, and its not Ireland.

That's true about some,  but not myself. The game was decent enough and England thoroughly deserved to win. However the referee and TMO both had a different interpretation of the Brown/Connor incident to myself and some other posters on here.

That does nothing to detract from England's win. It also does nothing to detract from some sensational individual performances, Vunipola, JJ and Hartley all played well.

Onto Hartley, despite my misgivings about his appointment as Captain initially he has done really well so far.

However the penalty for double movement in Hartley's disallowed try IMO was also not applied correctly. Should that not have been a scrum 5 to England since Hartley himself didn't make the double movement? He can hardly help it if his own pack are battering him over the line.

kingjohn7 wrote:Majestic- I said the one that injured him was first kick and the ball was there to be played.
Agree Billy Vunipola was fantastic- thought he has been good for awhile but now looks like taken it to another level. I'm not a big Farrell fan but I think he been playing very well as well. I guess Eng fans don't see him as 12 long term?? If not would u guys have him at 10, or is 12 actually his best position?

I think we'd all rather have him at 10 at the moment, especially given Ford's current form. But he did look pretty good at 12 yesterday, much better than I expected and we need a 12 at the moment. Long term any center combo of Slade/Tuilagi/Daly and JJ is going to be fun (And then there is St Mallinder to come in at some time, plus others who may still have a shot)

Cyril wrote:Indeed. If Poite had been reffing on Friday, Wales would have been fielding a 7s side by the end. Not sure if France would have scored any more points though!

Did you mean France would have been fielding a 7s side? You know with all the cheap shots off the ball and everything. I guess that still ranks as okay when it's a welsh player on the receiving end though, some things never change. #5InARow

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:What I don't like about all the hoo har is that it takes away from the game itself. There seem to be some here who would rather the game yesterday had been wrecked as any kind of event with one side having players sent off just so long as England lost.

What's more its very noticeable where the people shouting loudest about some of the English actions come from, and its not Ireland.

That's true about some,  but not myself. The game was decent enough and England thoroughly deserved to win. However the referee and TMO both had a different interpretation of the Brown/Connor incident to myself and some other posters on here.

That does nothing to detract from England's win. It also does nothing to detract from some sensational individual performances, Vunipola, JJ and Hartley all played well.

Onto Hartley, despite my misgivings about his appointment as Captain initially he has done really well so far.

However the penalty for double movement in Hartley's disallowed try IMO was also not applied correctly. Should that not have been a scrum 5 to England since Hartley himself didn't make the double movement? He can hardly help it if his own pack are battering him over the line.

Thats what I thought. But then it balances out the VDF (non) try.

lostinwales wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:What I don't like about all the hoo har is that it takes away from the game itself. There seem to be some here who would rather the game yesterday had been wrecked as any kind of event with one side having players sent off just so long as England lost.

What's more its very noticeable where the people shouting loudest about some of the English actions come from, and its not Ireland.

That's true about some,  but not myself. The game was decent enough and England thoroughly deserved to win. However the referee and TMO both had a different interpretation of the Brown/Connor incident to myself and some other posters on here.

That does nothing to detract from England's win. It also does nothing to detract from some sensational individual performances, Vunipola, JJ and Hartley all played well.

Onto Hartley, despite my misgivings about his appointment as Captain initially he has done really well so far.

However the penalty for double movement in Hartley's disallowed try IMO was also not applied correctly. Should that not have been a scrum 5 to England since Hartley himself didn't make the double movement? He can hardly help it if his own pack are battering him over the line.

Thats what I thought. But then it balances out the VDF (non) try.

VDF was very unlucky but the ref had to ask the question as neither he nor the TJ could see the grounding.

Hartley was even more unlucky because he was trying to push the ball back for Youngs but an It is player was holding it in. Should have been an English penalty.

Personally I thought we (England) played fairly dim. Brown gave Ireland the penalty turnovers that led to both their post scoring opportunities by running straight into the first tackler and the hanging on at the breakdown. Farrell gave away a couple of dim penalties for going off his feet and generally offered little ball in hand other than a nice pass to Nowell which made up for one he butchered earlier. Ford struggled with an overly flat back line that lacked any carrying threat and in which he has little faith shown by his hesitations in the 22 (no wonder Jones is desperate to rush Manu back). The forwards at least looked better though Haskell's yellow was ridiculous and Clifford was a marked improvement on Robshaw as George was on Hartley.

Personally I thought Brown knew what he was up to, he doesn't strike me as that clumsy.  Wouldn't dwell on it though. England well deserved winners. Ireland had chances in both halves and didn't take them.

Engine#4 wrote:Personally I thought Brown knew what he was up to, he doesn't strike me as that clumsy.  Wouldn't dwell on it though. England well deserved winners. Ireland had chances in both halves and didn't take them.

Fair comment. Personally I think he was going for the ball and had he been going for the head there would have been a lot more damage.

I think it was similar to when Paul O'Connell was playing for Munster and went to kick the ball but ending up kicking a player in the head. Don't think it was deliberate but was clumsy and perhaps more care should be taken but then again they would have to stop allowing players to kick the ball in a ruck

lostinwales wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:Personally I thought Brown knew what he was up to, he doesn't strike me as that clumsy.  Wouldn't dwell on it though. England well deserved winners. Ireland had chances in both halves and didn't take them.

Fair comment. Personally I think he was going for the ball and had he been going for the head there would have been a lot more damage.

The Laws of the game do not talk about intent, they are clear; kicking an opponent is foul play. I think that the players need to be made responsible for their actions and the onus placed on them to avoid injuring a player on the ground.

If Brown had swung his arm to knock the ball out of a players hands but missed and hit him in the face, what would the sanction have been? I suspect a yellow card, so players are careful that they do not commit this offence.

Its only a matter of time before a player is seriously injured by a kick to the head when on the ground, it's down to the IRB to enforce the laws of the game to avoid this happening and our game being dragged into disrepute.

Brown was very lucky to get away with being so careless IMHO, I fully expected him to walk.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Brown came in from the side, used the boot recklessly not once but twice, connecting twice on the head of the player on the ground. Red card all day.

Well obviously not in the minds of ref or TMO.

That wasn't yellow card worthy yet alone red card worthy, the punishment fit the the crime; coming in from the side.

If you're talking about Browns reckless use of the boot, then yes, it is red card worthy, and it's red card worthy because there is precedent for it. Luke Marshall accidentally clipped a player with the boot, a couple of seasons ago, and was banned (Personally I don't think he should have been). Brown's recklessness looked much worse. I would be surprised if he isn't cited, and banned.

Sam,
Really surprised you thought George was a step up yesterday. I felt it was quite comfortably his worst cameo so far, epitomised by struggling and failing to find Kruis in his first lineout his first lineout.

Would still like him to get more time though.

LondonTiger wrote:Sam,
Really surprised you thought George was a step up yesterday. I felt it was quite comfortably his worst cameo so far, epitomised by struggling and failing to find Kruis in his first lineout his first lineout.

Would still like him to get more time though.

I agree with you LT. But, I think 10 minutes or so at the end of a match is rather difficult to really judge a player.  In any of his cameos did George look lost?  No.  Did he look like a game changer?  No there too.  He will get more quality game time, if not in the 6 Nations, then certainly in the summer.  We do need to know our progressions at every position, and Hooker is key.

Hartley is improving in each match.  Clearly getting more comfortable in the captain role and also getting back to real International level game shape.  This is very good for England.  If either Hartley or George gets hurt, then who do we think are the next two in the queue?  Looking at Tom Youngs again?  Or whom?

Hooker is not a position with huge depth. Most seem to have a serious foaw. Will be fascineted to see how Taylor progresses at Wasps.

Agree. Not sure how the depth chart stacks up. I wouldn't mind seeing Saints Mikey Haywood get a shot. He is a very gutty performer. But I am biased, and he likely is a half step behind Hartley and George. Like the other pretenders/contenders.

There is another side to the rucking/Murray incident. Ie, pretty sure the laws state that a tackled player should release the ball and roll away. Murray clearly didn't do this. Brown was onside and entitled to ruck the ball. Move on nothing more to do.

englandglory4ever wrote:There is another side to the rucking/Murray incident. Ie, pretty sure the laws state that a tackled player should release the ball and roll away. Murray clearly didn't do this. Brown was onside and entitled to ruck the ball. Move on nothing more to do.

1. Lying on the ball resulted in noone getting injured.
2 . Brown has a right to ruck the ball, but not another player's skull.
3. Murray needed stitches due to the clumsy and reckless infringement of Brown.
4. I'll move on when I'm ready, not when englandglory4ever tells me to move on.

Brown rucked the ball. What's wrong with that? Murray should have let go of the ball and rolled away. He didn't. Possibly a penalty offence.

englandglory4ever wrote:Brown rucked the ball. What's wrong with that? Murray should have let go of the ball and rolled away. He didn't. Possibly a penalty offence.

Nothing, as long as he isn't reckless with his feet close to another players head. Don't you understand that simple point? He strikes Murray several times whilst attempting to go for the ball. Intent is irrelevant.

RR, you surely can't use the fact that Murray needed stitches as a measure of Browns guilt. POC went to kick the ball but ended up kicking a player in the head, he was not found guilty.

Dickson stamped on Hogg's head a few weeks back...nothing. Are people really still harping on about this?

If he "struck Murray several times" as you say. Murray had time to let go and roll away. He didn't.

2ndtimeround wrote:

Cyril wrote:Brown is fine. If you're looking at full backs, it's Hogg and Liam Williams that are the real problem in rugby.

Funny you should say that, its got me racking my brains for a time when either Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg have stuck the boot in with a player on the floor and taken several swipes at a ball that was next to the players head, also as hard as I try I cant remember either Williams or Hogg have a petulant temper tantrum with a reporter either. I suppose its all about what you class as acceptable and which eye you have open though.

Dont use fact on Cyril, he doesn't understand it

englandglory4ever wrote:Brown rucked the ball. What's wrong with that? Murray should have let go of the ball and rolled away. He didn't. Possibly a penalty offence.

Nothing.

Rucking another player's skull, accident or otherwise is a penalty offence.

englandglory4ever wrote:If he "struck Murray several times" as you say. Murray had time to let go and roll away. He didn't.

And......

englandglory4ever wrote:If he "struck Murray several times" as you say. Murray had time to let go and roll away. He didn't.

Ha! Is that really your defence?

"Well, Sir, he didn't move his head, so I just knew I was in the right to kick it"

This 'ere Brown incident - I didn't see it at the time anyon got a clip or know when it happened in the game so I can join in the pig headed arguing discussion

Anyone defending this dirty player's actions is frankly an idiot.

Brown knows what he is doing and if he doesn't he should and was reckless, but he is a dirty hot headed player who will eventually get what he deserves.

His reputation is fast developing as a player who will give up pens and he has a child's petulant temperament.

I hope he is cited for kicking Murray in the face.

If you watch the "kick" has brown trys to kick the ball out of Murray hands, Murray pulls the ball back. so ( in effect Muray is holding on) so should of been a penaltie too England.

majesticimperialman wrote:If you watch the "kick" has brown trys to kick the ball out of Murray hands, Murray pulls the ball back. so ( in effect Muray is holding on) so should of been a penaltie too England.

i rest my case

majesticimperialman wrote:If you watch the "kick" has brown trys to kick the ball out of Murray hands, Murray pulls the ball back. so ( in effect Muray is holding on) so should of been a penaltie too England.

It's 'Penalty', and have you never heard of a penalty being reversed?

he actually healed Murray in the face, his foot was past the area of Murray's head. Murray moved his face into the line of Browns boot coming backwards in his (Murrays's) illegal attempt to move the ball out of a position where Brown could kick it.

He then used his head as a shield to stop Brown kicking the ball. As Brown didn't kick the back of his head, his stupid action worked despite being both reckless in deliberately putting his head in a dangerous position and illegal and worthy of a yellow card. If Poite had not been so keen to YC Care, for w2hat I still don't know as he was not stopping Murray from doing anything and was on the opposite side of the ruck to the ball, he would have had no choice but to penalise Murray, having seen the slow mo at least 5 times and probably YC him for professional infringement.

I keep on forgetting wasn't there a couple of games of rugby on yesterday? I know there is a thread on Scotland Italy but can't seem to find one on England Ireland.

Maybe someone should start a new thread to avoid confusion. Something along the lines of

'I have no proof but Mike Brown is an evil bastid who shouldn't be allowed to play rugby ever again'

Gwlad is back to his wind up best anti English sentiments.

Pity as when he is not being an Idiot, he is often insightful in some of his comments, bit like old ghostie, bit without the humour.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:he actually healed Murray in the face, his foot was past the area of Murray's head. Murray moved his face into the line of Browns boot coming backwards in his (Murrays's) illegal attempt to move the ball out of a position where Brown could kick it.

He then used his head as a shield to stop Brown kicking the ball. As Brown didn't kick the back of his head, his stupid action worked despite being both reckless in deliberately putting his head in a dangerous position and illegal and worthy of a yellow card. If Poite had not been so keen to YC Care, for w2hat I still don't know as he was not stopping Murray from doing anything and was on the opposite side of the ruck to the ball, he would have had no choice but to penalise Murray, having seen the slow mo at least 5 times and probably YC him for professional infringement.

No faulting your logic there, PAST-IT

If it is cited, and I think it will be, and should be, then let them decide, instead of arguing on here. Otherwise it will just be more one-sided opinions against reasonable people like me

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Gwlad is back to his wind up best anti English sentiments.

Pity as when he is not being an Idiot, he is often insightful in some of his comments, bit like old ghostie, bit without the humour.

I am anti kicking people in the head, which Dirty mike brown just did.

Gwlad wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Gwlad is back to his wind up best anti English sentiments.

Pity as when he is not being an Idiot, he is often insightful in some of his comments, bit like old ghostie, bit without the humour.

I am anti kicking people in the head, which Dirty mike brown just did.

NO he did not. Mike Brown tried to kick the ball forward. But he was shoved back by a green shirt, could of been Rory Best. and that he when Mike Brown's heel of his boot connected with Murrys head. making it an ( ACCIDENT) Not deliberate. ok.

Gwlad wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Gwlad is back to his wind up best anti English sentiments.

Pity as when he is not being an Idiot, he is often insightful in some of his comments, bit like old ghostie, bit without the humour.

I am anti kicking people in the head, which Dirty mike brown just did.

Sure you haven't had a kick in the head? Would explain the random outbursts

Can't remember any player (PUSHING) Brown back.

Well, we know Dirty Mike is actually Crazy Mike.  And I don't think Crazy Mike even knew Murray's head was there.  I think he saw the ball and tried to dislodge.  

My question is on the same play why Care was binned?  I suppose was Murray not penalised for holding on because Care was binned?

Van der Flier was the player who was pushing and pulling with Crazy Mike.

For those who want to go back and look at it the sequence starts at 70:15 on the game clock.

TJ have a look here: http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/mike-brown-england-ireland-kick-conor-murray-six-nations/67183

TMO won the game for England.

You're a funny guy Vince.

Ta for the link

Ok - having watched the clip there ( and being neutral on this)- Pen against Murray for hands on the ground / not releasing ( he was initially legitimate going for the ball but then held on once off his feet) Even thats not clear - no england player is going for the ball and is murray trying to place the ball back having won a turnover - debatable

Brown goes in for the ball legitimately - but then is reckless in his use of the boot as its far too close to the Murrays head.  Pen reversed for reckless use of the boot/  Probable yellow card. He might have got away with one go - but repeated?

Intent does not matter in this case nor the fact Murray was holding on on the ground.  Reckless use of the boot in a ruck is foul play with no intent needed.  I expect him to be cited and banned

It certainly looks clumsy and the fact he had several goes - does mean that I think he might be cited for it